So they gave a Schichibukai spot to a guy who crippled an Admiral?
That seems kind of stupid to me.
Shichibukai Discussion Thread
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To be specific he was a retired admiral. He was like what Garp and Sengoku are now
But it seems from the movie that he still had enough in the tank to give Kizaru a lesson in combat
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Well, as far as i know (don´t quote me on this), the background story was done by Oda, the scenario and plot of the movie on the other hand not, so all the fights and generally information are not canon.
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Well the whole deal with his master plan is non-canon that's for sure.
But the character itself is in the canon, just like Shiki
and one should be able to assume that the general strength level portrayed is what Oda had in mind when he created the character
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With no particular ranking within the tiers:
Yonko Tier:
BlackbeardTop Tier:
Mihawk
Doflamingo
KumaMid Tier
Jinbe
Boa
LawLow/Disposed Tier
Crocodile
MoriaBuggy Tier
BuggyI'm sorry but you fail:
Pirate King Tier:
BuggyYonkou Tier:
BlackeardHigh Tier:
Doflamingo
Mihawk
KumaMid Tier:
Law
Jimbe
Hancock
CrocodileLow Tier:
Gekko Moria
Sabo -
@wolfwoof:
Well the whole deal with his master plan is non-canon that's for sure.
But the character itself is in the canon, just like Shiki
and one should be able to assume that the general strength level portrayed is what Oda had in mind when he created the character
Well, Shiki was supposed to be a rival for Roger and Whitebeard and had fought both Garp and Sengoku at the same time, then he went and lost to pre-TS Luffy, so i am not too sure how much it makes sense.
Generally though, the whole way the characters fought in the movie did not seem One Piece and Oda-like at all. -
Same could be said for Crocodile getting bashed in Alabasta
Both Shiki and Zephyer absolutely manhandle the entire crew on their first outings
But in the end Luffy always wins
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Well, in Crocodile´s case, it actually happens twice and is well explained by his intangibility. Later on, he gives up using his fruit and relies on his poison.
In Z´s case, Luffy was pretty much ambushed by Z when he was not expecting it, thus him later fighting him equally was legitimate.In Shiki´s case, he seemed extremely overwhelming even though the entire crew was fighting him and then he went and lost against Luffy who used a slow attack like Giant Pistol or Rifle, did not make sense.
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Before this train runs away, the point was that the mystery warlord is supposed to be a guy that cut off the arm of someone who was basically on par with Garp, which leads many to believe that this warlord is pretty powerful. The information regarding this warlord appears to also be canon, that is, original information directly from the author.
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I thought the new Warlord was begging for his life before he cut off Zephyr's arm? Which would suggest that he only managed to injure an admiral through a surprise attack.
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No, that was in the past when Z was still an Admiral, i think 23? years ago. Then 9 years ago, he cut off Z´s arm.
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I thought the new Warlord was begging for his life before he cut off Zephyr's arm? Which would suggest that he only managed to injure an admiral through a surprise attack.
Details, details :ninja:
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Yeah all that was said was that a powerful devil fruit user cut off his arm and killed the entire crew of recruits he was training
And that this man was later offered a seat among the shichibukai
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Ehm no, Jabra is not completely wrong. Voluime 1000 actually mentions that he caught that same pirate once many years prior and that pirate was begging for his life. Only back then, Z apparently still was the mild mannered Marine, so it should be even before his family got killed.
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Is there a proper timeline somewhere? All the information I have is from the movie z thread here on Arlong Park, and to be honest it's a mess.
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Is there a proper timeline somewhere? All the information I have is from the movie z thread here on Arlong Park, and to be honest it's a mess.
This from sandman
Z's Life (Volume Z)
[Age 14]
Z entered the Naval Academy. He wanted to be a hero.[Age 18]
He took part in actual fighting for the first time.[Age 28]
Z was promoted to petty officer. He mastered Rokushiki. He realized that Marine is not always a hero.[Age 34]
He began to be called "Black Arm". He was the master of Armament haki.[Age 38]
He was promoted to Admiral. Zephr was popular among his subordinates. Roger and Whitebeard were in their golden age at that time.Z married.
[Age 39]
Z's son was born.[Age 42]
Z's family were killed by a pirate. Z intended to resign Marine, but higer officer persuaded him to stay Marine. Z became an instructor.Akainu (age 23) and Kizaru (age 26) joined Marine. Both of them were already "Monsters".
[Age 44]
Aokiji (age 19) joined Marine.[Age 50]
Z gave strict lessons to his disciples.[Age 65]
A pirate cut Z's arm off.[Age 70]
A Marine scientist gave "Battle Smasher" to Z.[Age 73]
The pirate who had cut Z's arm off joined Shichibukai.[Age 74]
Luffy beats Z. -
Ehm no, Jabra is not completely wrong. Voluime 1000 actually mentions that he caught that same pirate once many years prior and that pirate was begging for his life. Only back then, Z apparently still was the mild mannered Marine, so it should be even before his family got killed.
Ah that i did not know. In the movie they talked about him as if he was an unknown
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Other translations note that he caught the guy, but that he later escaped. Not sure where the note is or when the supposed capture took place, though. Let me dig up the page. Edit: on second thought, I'm not sure which page of the volume actually mentions it!
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@wolfwoof:
Ah that i did not know. In the movie they talked about him as if he was an unknown
Yep, besides that, there is nothing we know so far but you can already argue that none of the characters we know so far fit the profile since he joined one year ago, except maybe Buggy.
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Well, in Crocodile´s case, it actually happens twice and is well explained by his intangibility. Later on, he gives up using his fruit and relies on his poison.
In Z´s case, Luffy was pretty much ambushed by Z when he was not expecting it, thus him later fighting him equally was legitimate.In Shiki´s case, he seemed extremely overwhelming even though the entire crew was fighting him and then he went and lost against Luffy who used a slow attack like Giant Pistol or Rifle, did not make sense.
Shiki lost because he underestimated Luffy's final attack which he was mocking Luffy because he thought he was going to kill himself by cloaking himself in lightning….
If he had been more serious against him, he'd have curbstomped him into the ground
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This from sandman
Ah, thank you!
Too bad that we don't know when he caught the pirate, but it makes sense that it happened before his family got killed.
But then again, how did the fight between the two (age 65) end? The new Shichibukai killed his students and cut off his arm, but didn't finish the job? Or was it the other way around? Zephyr managed to capture the pirate, but with a great loss (his arm)?
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Wich in my opinion doesnt say much in a world of crazy devil fruit powers , Haki and other wierd supernatural stuff. What has he ever really done apart from slashing up Zoro and Kriegs Fleet, and cutting off a chunk of Ice at Marineford? I dont think there is any reason to rank him below or above Doflamingo since we dont have much to back it up with. But its safe to assume that Doflamingo, Mihawk, Kuma and possibly Hancock are all in the "Top Tier" Bracket.
Doflamingo is likely to get beaten now, while Mihawk is likely to be beaten at the end of the series. If Law or Luffy beats DD now, you can bet that Zoro will significantly stronger than their current level, by the time he beats Mihawk. I expect Mihawk to be Yonko tier personally, but we will see if that holds any truth by the end of the series.
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Ah, thank you!
Too bad that we don't know when he caught the pirate, but it makes sense that it happened before his family got killed.
But then again, how did the fight between the two (age 65) end? The new Shichibukai killed his students and cut off his arm, but didn't finish the job? Or was it the other way around? Zephyr managed to capture the pirate, but with a great loss (his arm)?
Yeah it would be indeed interesting how he was put in jail… But sadly I doubt we will hear anything of it if teh Shichibukai will appear at the manga
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Vol. 1000 pg 79:
As an admiral, he never killed his enemies
He captured that pirate once, but let him go because the pirate begged for his life and said he had a family (sounds like this happened while still an admiral = before his family was killed)
The same pirate later took his arm and slaughtered the traineesThere's nothing that says directly that this pirate was ever jailed, at least from what I've read. We do know that the pirate that killed his family was captured and jailed (pg 73) but that's a different guy.
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Vol. 1000 pg 79:
As an admiral, he never killed his enemies
He captured that pirate once, but let him go because the pirate begged for his life and said he had a family (sounds like this happened while still an admiral = before his family was killed)
The same pirate later took his arm and slaughtered the traineesThere's nothing that says directly that this pirate was ever jailed, at least from what I've read. We do know that the pirate that killed his family was captured and jailed (pg 73) but that's a different guy.
What the hell are you talking about? Volume 1000??? lol
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Volume 1000 was the special volume for the movie with sketches and the background story for Z which, as far as we know, is canon, though i doubt it will be mentioned in the story.
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Just thought I'd point out that Moria didn't 'stand up to Kaido' so much as get smushed by Kaido.
Have to disagree in this one, we still don't know how this went down, so saying that Moria didn't actually stand toe to toe with Kaido is kinda meh, we know that he got he's crew wiped out but we don't know how that happen though
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@wolfwoof:
I do have to note one thing about Moria. He does not seem to be afraid of Kaido in the same way Doffy seems to be
Even after losing his crew his goal still appears to be to get even with him
Well, Moria was building up a super-freaky kind-of-immortal zombie army for that purpose. Doflamingo, on the other hand, is just chilling in the open, pretty much. I think they put in teh situation where Kaido's in front of them as an individual, swinging for them, both would want to avoid that fight equally. Doflamingo facing off against Kuzan kinda showed he was reluctant to fight someone that powerful, but at the same time, he wasn't exactly cowering away either.
I mean both would want to avoid a direct one-on-one type situation, surely?
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Have to disagree in this one, we still don't know how this went down, so saying that Moria didn't actually stand toe to toe with Kaido is kinda meh, we know that he got he's crew wiped out but we don't know how that happen though
Yeah after being able to go toe-to-toe with apparently some insanely strong creature of ridiculous proportions, Moria got scared and ran back to the first half of the GL to build an army. Somehow I think not.
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sorry if this had been asked a billion times before, but is the shichibukai that cut off Z's arm canon? because there is one left who hasn't been revealed post-TS…
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Well, Moria was building up a super-freaky kind-of-immortal zombie army for that purpose. Doflamingo, on the other hand, is just chilling in the open, pretty much. I think they put in teh situation where Kaido's in front of them as an individual, swinging for them, both would want to avoid that fight equally. Doflamingo facing off against Kuzan kinda showed he was reluctant to fight someone that powerful, but at the same time, he wasn't exactly cowering away either.
I mean both would want to avoid a direct one-on-one type situation, surely?
I figure it's a bit like Moria has faced the worst possible outcome of a pirate's life
He's lost everything, and if i remember correctly he does not fear his own death. So what is there for him to worry about
Doffy on the hand has everything. Of course he's more worried about any potential hickups
I figure it's not as much a strength indicator as it is a life outlook thing. But i might be reading too much into it
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I think now that moria's lost his zombie army and fancy shichibukai title he's finally gonna give up on his attitude of 'you do it' that seems to have come about due to the loss of his crew from the hands of Kaidou, and will proceed to get in shape and go back to his original power (or closer to it) where he actually took the front lines and was considered a force that could even fight Kaidou, his come back to this series will be phenomenal…. hopefully
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sorry if this had been asked a billion times before, but is the shichibukai that cut off Z's arm canon? because there is one left who hasn't been revealed post-TS…
Yes. While Film Z wasn't canon, the events preceding it with Zephyr being an admiral, having his arm cut off by a pirate and said pirate joining the Shichibukai are, I believe, canon.
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I think Dofla can only control someone physically. Meaning he has no way to force someone to use their special ability like diable jambe.
And since DD is in control your skills become irrelevant. Zoro could loose to the pulp for example.
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Yeah after being able to go toe-to-toe with apparently some insanely strong creature of ridiculous proportions, Moria got scared and ran back to the first half of the GL to build an army. Somehow I think not.
Insanely strong creature that he is now, we don't know If he had that nickname back then and most likely not assuming that he got it after becoming a yonkou, the dude got his crew killed and his dream/will shattered in the OP universe that's the worst thing that can happen to anyone
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shishibukai are very imbalanced, it shows that oda still has much to learn to become one of the best mangakas. does someone remember this crocodile guy? he was a shishibukai too, yes. and luffy defeat him, even before he learned to use gear 2, not even mentioning haki.
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That doesn't mean anything. Shichibukai very in power. Think its been hinted at they become shichibukai young in their careers.
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shishibukai are very imbalanced, it shows that oda still has much to learn to become one of the best mangakas. does someone remember this crocodile guy? he was a shishibukai too, yes. and luffy defeat him, even before he learned to use gear 2, not even mentioning haki.
… Nobody said they were equal.
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Have to disagree in this one, we still don't know how this went down, so saying that Moria didn't actually stand toe to toe with Kaido is kinda meh, we know that he got he's crew wiped out but we don't know how that happen though
Their battle might have taken place many years ago (Moria is pretty old after all), in that case Kaido was younger and not as strong as he is now.
Kaido beats Moria.
Moria's dreams are crushed. He flees from the new world and sits on his ass, getting out of shape.
Kiado goes on to become stronger.This is a possibility. I hope Moria didn't just get completely owned but put up a fight. After how Moria got shat on so far in the story, he should get some hype now. A flashback of him getting completely shat on by Kaido too would just break my heart it would.
@choperman:I think now that moria's lost his zombie army and fancy shichibukai title he's finally gonna give up on his attitude of 'you do it' that seems to have come about due to the loss of his crew from the hands of Kaidou, and will proceed to get in shape and go back to his original power (or closer to it) where he actually took the front lines and was considered a force that could even fight Kaidou, his come back to this series will be phenomenal…. hopefully
I really hope so too, but I could see it go either way. I don't know if Oda is going to change his character like that. Maybe he'd rather maintain staus quo with him.,having him stay a passive plotter instead of a more active type guy.
@wolfwoof:I figure it's not as much a strength indicator as it is a life outlook thing. But i might be reading too much into it
Why not both? In One Piece, willpower/determintation etc. equals strength after all, the two go hand in hand.
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It was actually in chapter 483 by a random pirate that Moria "matched" Kaido. Of course you could argue that it's just a fake rumor or something, but I doubt Oda included that line for nothing.
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shishibukai are very imbalanced, it shows that oda still has much to learn to become one of the best mangakas. does someone remember this crocodile guy? he was a shishibukai too, yes. and luffy defeat him, even before he learned to use gear 2, not even mentioning haki.
It's preferable and much more plausible that they would vary wildly in power. Unless you think good storytelling would be having a limited resource like Shichi candidates all somehow line up in power and be the exact ideals the WG was looking for every time.
As well as all have their powers and influence based on pure fighting power, rather than really obvious other skills like Moria.–- Update From New Post Merge ---
It was actually in chapter 483 by a random pirate that Moria "matched" Kaido. Of course you could argue that it's just a fake rumor or something, but I doubt Oda included that line for nothing.
"Once"
Meaning Kaidou might not have been an emperor yet at the time, and not be at his current level. Or that Moria may have been much stronger at the time himself.
Or both. -
@Monkey:
Or both.
I think it's got to be both
In chapter zero we found out that Moria was once skinny, which him getting fat would more lean to him being out of shape now, and then we found out Kaidou killed his entire crew, which brought Moria to want to build a zombie army, people who couldn't die so no more tragic losses
and then no one on the grandline had any idea how to kill the Zombie army, and he let them do all the work, adopting the policy you do it for me.
and as such gained weight and lost power (as Doflamingo hints he was once more powerful but has become weak)
now that he's lost everything and almost died I think it's time for him to get back in shape and actually get to the power level he was once at
and what better saga to reappear then one that has both Doflmingo (the man who tried to kill him) and Kaidou (the monster who killed his crew)
I could even see him joining up with the straw hats in order to defeat these two (but no way he's as powerful as Kaidou)
with a new attitude and being back in shape his return to this series will be glorious…. hopefully
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Aye the way so many characters note that Moriah isn't as sharp as he once was seems pretty telling
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@wolfwoof:
Aye the way so many characters note that Moriah isn't as sharp as he once was seems pretty telling
Aside from Dofly who else mentioned it?
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I could've sworn that Jinbei made some comment about it. But i can't seem to find it so i guess i must've dreamed it
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Aside from Dofly who else mentioned it?
the fact that doflamingo himself said it should be enough
and the whole chapter zero being skinny and now he's fat, and his whole adoption of the "you do it for me" because he has zombies and lost his crew is pretty good reason to believe he lost his motivation to be the strongest after falling into some deep depression and relied on his zombie army and Shichibukai status to do the work and failed to train and keep up with his power
hence why people think he's gonna get a power up soon
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@wolfwoof:
I could've sworn that Jinbei made some comment about it. But i can't seem to find it so i guess i must've dreamed it
Jinbei made a comment during Marineford about how Moria's skills would never improve just from stealing other people's strength ie when he absorbed shadows. That's the closest I can think of.
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I can see Moria returning with some battle scars, the same way Kidd and Bellamy have.
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Moria will probably take over the straw hats and kill Luffy. He's better protagonist material.
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Jinbei made a comment during Marineford about how Moria's skills would never improve just from stealing other people's strength ie when he absorbed shadows. That's the closest I can think of.
That was the one i was thinking about actually. Which chapter did you find that in?
Since the implication is that pre-Kaido Moria didn't fight like he does now