You didn't "address" anything lol, you continued to ignore the active discussion to blindly assert your claim in an arrogant manner.
Same goes for you. You completely ignored the post to which i replied.
You didn't "address" anything lol, you continued to ignore the active discussion to blindly assert your claim in an arrogant manner.
Same goes for you. You completely ignored the post to which i replied.
Luffy able to catch the sword, a named sword. Isn't that should be a problem for 280M bounty swordman who have been in the New World for 3 years??
Or he just another Johny Yosaku ?
It's not like he did it without effort, even when tired. And I don't quite know what some of you expect (also directed at brennen): We know for sure that Luffy is superior to Cavendish. The question here is just by how much (and of course the portrayal shows that the difference is big enough). If you guys are ready to give the benefit of the doubt to Rebecca, after what some gladiator prisoners said about her speed (which I don't say won't be true), how can't you take more seriously the fact that Cavendish (casually) resisted an (also casual, I admit, IIRC) attack from Chinjao?
[…]
Blocking a sword strike with your hands is usually meant to show one of two things: martial arts mastery, superiority. Given the context, our case is the latter. An extremely tired Luffy (he said it, not me) caught a named thrust attack, not a casual sword slash. Cavendish hates Luffy and wants to kill him. HATES Luffy. He has no reason to hold back, and we have every reason to believe that scene was meant to show us the difference in their power.DemonX your post was pretty fair, so I'm not really arguing your points except to say that Cabbage's scene was full of dialog from Luffy about how he was tired and didn't feel like fighting, whereas Rebecca's scene the dialog effectively tells us we haven't seen what she's capable of yet. The former scene is practically a gag and treated lightly, the latter scene is heavier and serious.
[..]
Now, I don't really want to be nitpicky, but did he say "extreme"? We have seen what an "extremely" tired Luffy is capable of, so I wouldn't read that much into it. And then, as I said above, it's no question that Luffy is stronger than Cavendish. My gripe is that some people are ready to give Rebecca the benefit of the doubt (in regard to her being stronger than Cavendish) even after all we've seen of him and only the hype we've got from Oda (through the gladiators etc.) about her.
And about that last sentence: The actual fighting situation wasn't a gag, the gag was everybody going after Luffy.
I reiterate: we know Cavendish is weaker than Luffy, the same goes for Rebecca as well. We do know the former was serious against Luffy (though how "serious" he was can't know, even if he wanted to kill him. He didn't go all out and I hope nobody believes he doesn't have higher calibre attacks) and (an albeit) tired Luffy had to exert at least some effort to stop him, while Rebecca went at him without killing intent and Luffy immobilised her while not even dropping his meal.
So in my opinion, it could go either way. Rebecca will certainly have an important role to play this arc, but I believe she can fulfill this role even after getting defeated. But I also wouldn't be surprised if she really is to be a serious threat (to Cavendish).
I doubt Rebecca could block Chinjao's head her sword most likely break. She could just avoid her with her speed.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Seeing the level of the normal tournament winners I really think it's unlikelyRebecca is winning against an experienced and strong NW fighter.
--- Update From New Post Merge ---
Seeing the level of the normal tournament winners I really think it's unlikelyRebecca is winning against an experienced and strong NW fighter.
If you guys are ready to give the benefit of the doubt to Rebecca, after what some gladiator prisoners said about her speed (which I don't say won't be true), how can't you take more seriously the fact that Cavendish (casually) resisted an (also casual, I admit, IIRC) attack from Chinjao? We have seen what an "extremely" tired Luffy is capable of, so I wouldn't read that much into it. And then, as I said above, it's no question that Luffy is stronger than Cavendish. My gripe is [the above]. I [also] believe she can fulfill this role even after getting defeated.
I'm mostly trying to look at the narrative; what is Oda saying in this scene or that, what's being conveyed here. Also, what works for the story, what makes sense, what is rewarding or not for the readers. I admit I'm a total amateur at this stuff, I literally have no education on the matter at all, so I'm just basing this off of my own experience reading books. I'll just spoiler tag my full response since I'm pressed for time and cannot simplify it down or format it.
[hide]My takeaway from Cavendish's scene was that Luffy was clearly the superior fighter, to the point we never need to see them fight each other again. Luffy being tired, him stopping the attack with his hands, him not wanting to fight in general, these all tell us (the readers) that Cavendish is nothing to Luffy. Why is this relevant? Looking at the plot, even as a gag character Cavendish has a role to play. Is he just a Buggy type character who will attempt to assassinate Luffy at every turn? Is he just around this arc to make things with Bartolomeo and Bellamy more interesting? Whatever it is, at this point we know there would be no point in having Cavendish fight Luffy in the tournament. At least, there would be no challenge, and his anger at Luffy is petty, so why build up to a showdown between them? With that in mind, why should Cavendish move forward in the tournament at all if his primary function has been to harass Luffy? The only reason I can think of for him to win this round would be to piss Luffy off, maybe. Thing is, that's only relevant if he is slated to fight Luffy seriously at some point, and we all already know the result of that, so I don't think it would be satisfying or necessary. And Luffy having a genuine reason to fight Cavendish takes away from the gag of Cavendish having a petty grudge against Luffy, which at this point defines Cavendish.
So what about Rebecca? She doesn't need to fight Luffy, true, but depending on who defeats her that person may go up against Luffy in the quarter-finals. I mean who knows how Oda will handle the format, but a typical single elimination tournament suggests the above, and that format even with variation could allow Luffy to go up against the guy who takes her out. As I outlined above, if it were Cavendish there wouldn't really be much of a fight, though it would always be entertaining to see him get his face smashed in by Luffy. In any case, Doflamingo and his crew are already the objects of Rebecca's and soon Luffy's hate, so it makes more sense for them to take her out. Also, before I move from this point, it cheapens Rebecca's efforts if she immediately loses at the one thing she's really been trying to do. We know she won't win, but for heaven's sake let her at least advance one round! Cavendish can lose and it won't hurt his character at all.
Moving on, my takeaway from her scene with Luffy was that there was much more to her than we were led to believe: being the princess, her current ambition, the crowd hating her, and yes even her fighting style and abilities. For the readers there is no payoff in seeing her taken out or the crowd getting what they want. On the other hand the crowd will love Cavendish and they already hate Rebecca, so her winning would be satisfying for the readers and would piss the crowd off. When she loses her next match they get what they want and the readers get to focus their anger on whoever defeated her, making Luffy's victory against them more satisfying.
I'll stop there, I have work I need to finish up. Hopefully my thought process isn't a total mess.[/hide]@DemonX:
So in my opinion, it could go either way. Rebecca will certainly have an important role to play this arc, but […] I also wouldn't be surprised if she really is to be a serious threat (to Cavendish).
I still agree it could go either way; as I said on the outset, I had assumed up until last chapter that Cavendish would win.
With that much speculation it seems block D is bound to keep exited.
I'm mostly trying to look at the narrative; what is Oda saying in this scene or that, what's being conveyed here. Also, what works for the story, what makes sense, what is rewarding or not for the readers. I admit I'm a total amateur at this stuff, I literally have no education on the matter at all, so I'm just basing this off of my own experience reading books.
Pfft, who needs any of that. Experience is probably the most important thing when looking at storytelling?
Moving on, my takeaway from her scene with Luffy was that there was much more to her than we were led to believe: being the princess, her current ambition, the crowd hating her, and yes even her fighting style and abilities. For the readers there is no payoff in seeing her taken out or the crowd getting what they want. On the other hand the crowd will love Cavendish and they already hate Rebecca, so her winning would be satisfying for the readers and would piss the crowd off. When she loses her next match they get what they want and the readers get to focus their anger on whoever defeated her, making Luffy's victory against them more satisfying.
But seeing Rebecca struggle and not succeed is good for the story, as it makes her more of a sympathetic character. Granted, as you outlined, that can happen in the next round too, but this round can also satisfy that purpose. Depending on how it's done, it could also develop Cavendish (what would Cavendish think of Rebecca trying so hard and failing? She's just weak and should give up? That it's commendable? What would he think of the crowd in that situation? Nonchalant? Get angry at them?)
So we could gain a lot, stroytelling-wise, from a Rebecca loss in Block D.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
@CCC:
The important thing that you're all forgetting is that Rebecca had no killing intent. She wasn't actually trying, most likely because she actually likes Luffy. She just felt she had to make a halfhearted attempt given that her prisoner buddies already had Luffy in a headlock.
And then there's their comment about how amazing it was that Luffy beat her in a contest of speed. We all know it's really not that amazing, given that Luffy is one of the fastest characters in the series, but that still seems like some pretty strong foreshadowing to indicate that we haven't seen what Rebecca can really do.
The prisoners' comments suggest Rbecca's greatest asset is speed, and in that, she gets casually trumped by Luffy, whose strongest asset is also speed.
I think a gulf in ability is implied here, even if it isn't explicitly evidenced (because we know Rebecca wasn't really trying).
Cavendish on the other hand, you can lean either way pretty comfortably on the sword catching scene. I really don't think it implies anything one way or another.
My takeaway from Cavendish's scene was that Luffy was clearly the superior fighter, to the point we never need to see them fight each other again. Luffy being tired, him stopping the attack with his hands, him not wanting to fight in general, these all tell us (the readers) that Cavendish is nothing to Luffy. Why is this relevant? Looking at the plot, even as a gag character Cavendish has a role to play. Is he just a Buggy type character who will attempt to assassinate Luffy at every turn? Is he just around this arc to make things with Bartolomeo and Bellamy more interesting? Whatever it is, at this point we know there would be no point in having Cavendish fight Luffy in the tournament. At least, there would be no challenge, and his anger at Luffy is petty, so why build up to a showdown between them? With that in mind, why should Cavendish move forward in the tournament at all if his primary function has been to harass Luffy? The only reason I can think of for him to win this round would be to piss Luffy off, maybe. Thing is, that's only relevant if he is slated to fight Luffy seriously at some point, and we all already know the result of that, so I don't think it would be satisfying or necessary. And Luffy having a genuine reason to fight Cavendish takes away from the gag of Cavendish having a petty grudge against Luffy, which at this point defines Cavendish.
There's no need to build up a fight between Luffy and Cavendish, but like you said, we don't know the format of the next phase. Cavendish could very well advance without being able to ever fight Luffy.
A possible scenario: Bartolomeo vs. Cavendish (very possible, considering they're polar opposites) and Luffy vs. Burgess semifinals. Cavendish wins, but Luffy's fight against Burgess gets interrupted. Cavendish is once again denied a fight against Luffy in the finals and whines about it. The gag is still there.
Also, Bartolomeo has no reason to be there but to fanboy at Luffy. He still advanced over Bellamy, who also revealed his own backstory and goal to Luffy before entering the match.
So what about Rebecca? She doesn't need to fight Luffy, true, but depending on who defeats her that person may go up against Luffy in the quarter-finals. I mean who knows how Oda will handle the format, but a typical single elimination tournament suggests the above, and that format even with variation could allow Luffy to go up against the guy who takes her out. As I outlined above, if it were Cavendish there wouldn't really be much of a fight, though it would always be entertaining to see him get his face smashed in by Luffy. In any case, Doflamingo and his crew are already the objects of Rebecca's and soon Luffy's hate, so it makes more sense for them to take her out. Also, before I move from this point, it cheapens Rebecca's efforts if she immediately loses at the one thing she's really been trying to do. We know she won't win, but for heaven's sake let her at least advance one round! Cavendish can lose and it won't hurt his character at all.
I believe it's the very opposite, actually.
Cavendish was introduced as a Super Rookie with 3 years of NW experience, a bounty of 280 Million and a famous sword. Why would Oda give him all those qualities if he were unable to justify any of them? If Cavendish's role was just to harass Luffy, then all those aspects Oda gave to him would be irrelevant, as he's inferior to Luffy anyway.
Cavendish, as a character, is pretty much tied only to the Colosseum part of Dressrosa while Rebecca isn't. That's why winning D-block is much more crucial to Cavendish's character than to Rebecca's.
Moving on, my takeaway from her scene with Luffy was that there was much more to her than we were led to believe: being the princess, her current ambition, the crowd hating her, and yes even her fighting style and abilities. For the readers there is no payoff in seeing her taken out or the crowd getting what they want. On the other hand the crowd will love Cavendish and they already hate Rebecca, so her winning would be satisfying for the readers and would piss the crowd off. When she loses her next match they get what they want and the readers get to focus their anger on whoever defeated her, making Luffy's victory against them more satisfying.
Payoff? What payoff? There's no payoff in having Rebecca win only for her to lose in the next round.
Rebecca wins and pisses the crowd off. Later, she loses and the crowd is happy again. Where's the payoff?
While I agree that Rebecca does have a real chance of winning, I believe Cavendish winning would be more logical. I posted a list of reasons some pages ago about why I think so. Most of those reasons based on the fact that Cavendish and Bartolomeo are foils. You can't have one without the other.
By the way, I am doing the same thing as you in regards to narrative understanding.
she gets casually trumped by Luffy
While not really trying… against the fastest character in OP so far besides Kizaru and Lucky Rou.
Rebecca wins and pisses the crowd off. Later, she loses and the crowd is happy again. Where's the payoff?
Nothing says she ever has to lose. We still don't know the format of the tournament once the blocks are done, and the "interruption" we're all waiting for could happen before she loses anything (and at that point she springs into action with the SHs against whomever). That would satisfy the sort of plotting that Brennen is hypothesizing.
Also (this isn't directed at anyone in particular), it's seeming more and more likely that there was no sarcasm involved when the gladiators mocking her called her "the undefeated woman." We now know that the reason for their hatred simply has to do with her bloodline (as opposed to her being explicitly very weak), and her physical state as compared to the other prisoner gladiators' makes a compelling case for her not taking too many hits in the ring.
If it seems like I'm petitioning for Rebecca, it's because I agree with most of what Brennen said.
Payoff? What payoff? There's no payoff in having Rebecca win only for her to lose in the next round.
Let me ask you, what would be the "payoff" in having CAVENDISH defeat Rebecca?
What is the "payoff" in directing Luffy's anger AWAY from Doflamingo, AWAY from the citizens of Dressrosa who support Doflamingo, and to a lesser extent, AWAY from Jesus Burgess (who has already become a secondary focus). Cavendish has no connection to Doflamingo, he has no connection to Dressrosa, and he has no connection to Rebecca. Furthermore, Luffy has so far, NEVER shown interest in Cavendish as a serious opponent (unlike Jesus Burgess). Cavendish is a gag character. I see no purpose in directing Luffy's anger toward him, when this last chapter only just started to get the ball rolling in Doflamingo's direction.
Having her lose against an actual Dofla Family member has about 100 times the emotional implication than losing against a random idiot like Cavendish.
As a Princess she reminds me very much of the way Oda dealt with Vivi and Shirahoshi; they want to succeed for the good of their people but it will be up to Luffy to carry their dreams forward.
My suspicion is as she doesn't have the comedy value Cavendish has then it really doesn't matter at what point she starts cheering him on from the sidelines.
Part of me is hoping that Oda gives her amazing fighting prowess and skills in D block simply because I dislike how much I dislike her. But maybe if she gets beaten early she'll have a reason to change out of that stupid tinfoil bikini.
Let me ask you, what would be the "payoff" in having CAVENDISH defeat Rebecca?
What is the "payoff" in directing Luffy's anger AWAY from Doflamingo, AWAY from the citizens of Dressrosa who support Doflamingo, and to a lesser extent, AWAY from Jesus Burgess (who has already become a secondary focus). Cavendish has no connection to Doflamingo, he has no connection to Dressrosa, and he has no connection to Rebecca. Furthermore, Luffy has so far, NEVER shown interest in Cavendish as a serious opponent (unlike Jesus Burgess). Cavendish is a gag character. I see no purpose in directing Luffy's anger toward him, when this last chapter only just started to get the ball rolling in Doflamingo's direction.
Is there even a need for a payoff right now? It's not like this tournament is going to decide the fate of Dressrosa. Those people are fighting for a fucking magical fruit. And Rebecca is not going to become useless if she loses.
Wouldn't it make more sense for the payoff to happen outside of the context of the Colosseum, later down the arc?
I predict Cavendish to win next round quite easily like Btrollomeo with Group B, unless the tournament is interrupted.
What is the "payoff" in directing Luffy's anger AWAY from Doflamingo, AWAY from the citizens of Dressrosa who support Doflamingo, and to a lesser extent, AWAY from Jesus Burgess (who has already become a secondary focus). Cavendish has no connection to Doflamingo, he has no connection to Dressrosa, and he has no connection to Rebecca. Furthermore, Luffy has so far, NEVER shown interest in Cavendish as a serious opponent (unlike Jesus Burgess). Cavendish is a gag character. I see no purpose in directing Luffy's anger toward him, when this last chapter only just started to get the ball rolling in Doflamingo's direction.
And why would Luffy be angry against Cavendish just because he'd win against Rebecca in a fair and square match ?
@CCC:
While not really trying… against the fastest character in OP so far besides Kizaru and Lucky Rou.
[…]Also (this isn't directed at anyone in particular), it's seeming more and more likely that there was no sarcasm involved when the gladiators mocking her called her "the undefeated woman." We now know that the reason for their hatred simply has to do with her bloodline (as opposed to her being explicitly very weak), and her physical state as compared to the other prisoner gladiators' makes a compelling case for her not taking too many hits in the ring.
If it seems like I'm petitioning for Rebecca, it's because I agree with most of what Brennen said.
Even faster than the other Admiral level fighters? :D
At the same time you have to keep in mind the gladiators are (relative) fodder. Rebecca doesn't have to be THAT strong to survive.
I'm mostly trying to look at the narrative; what is Oda saying in this scene or that, what's being conveyed here. Also, what works for the story, what makes sense, what is rewarding or not for the readers. I admit I'm a total amateur at this stuff, I literally have no education on the matter at all, so I'm just basing this off of my own experience reading books. I'll just spoiler tag my full response since I'm pressed for time and cannot simplify it down or format it.
[hide]My takeaway from Cavendish's scene was that Luffy was clearly the superior fighter, to the point we never need to see them fight each other again. Luffy being tired, him stopping the attack with his hands, him not wanting to fight in general, these all tell us (the readers) that Cavendish is nothing to Luffy. Why is this relevant? Looking at the plot, even as a gag character Cavendish has a role to play. Is he just a Buggy type character who will attempt to assassinate Luffy at every turn? Is he just around this arc to make things with Bartolomeo and Bellamy more interesting? Whatever it is, at this point we know there would be no point in having Cavendish fight Luffy in the tournament. At least, there would be no challenge, and his anger at Luffy is petty, so why build up to a showdown between them? With that in mind, why should Cavendish move forward in the tournament at all if his primary function has been to harass Luffy? The only reason I can think of for him to win this round would be to piss Luffy off, maybe. Thing is, that's only relevant if he is slated to fight Luffy seriously at some point, and we all already know the result of that, so I don't think it would be satisfying or necessary. And Luffy having a genuine reason to fight Cavendish takes away from the gag of Cavendish having a petty grudge against Luffy, which at this point defines Cavendish.
So what about Rebecca? She doesn't need to fight Luffy, true, but depending on who defeats her that person may go up against Luffy in the quarter-finals. I mean who knows how Oda will handle the format, but a typical single elimination tournament suggests the above, and that format even with variation could allow Luffy to go up against the guy who takes her out. As I outlined above, if it were Cavendish there wouldn't really be much of a fight, though it would always be entertaining to see him get his face smashed in by Luffy. In any case, Doflamingo and his crew are already the objects of Rebecca's and soon Luffy's hate, so it makes more sense for them to take her out. Also, before I move from this point, it cheapens Rebecca's efforts if she immediately loses at the one thing she's really been trying to do. We know she won't win, but for heaven's sake let her at least advance one round! Cavendish can lose and it won't hurt his character at all.
Moving on, my takeaway from her scene with Luffy was that there was much more to her than we were led to believe: being the princess, her current ambition, the crowd hating her, and yes even her fighting style and abilities. For the readers there is no payoff in seeing her taken out or the crowd getting what they want. On the other hand the crowd will love Cavendish and they already hate Rebecca, so her winning would be satisfying for the readers and would piss the crowd off. When she loses her next match they get what they want and the readers get to focus their anger on whoever defeated her, making Luffy's victory against them more satisfying.
I'll stop there, I have work I need to finish up. Hopefully my thought process isn't a total mess.[/hide]I still agree it could go either way; as I said on the outset, I had assumed up until last chapter that Cavendish would win.
I do agree that from a story point of view it would have a bigger impact for her to lose against a Dofla crew member than against Cavendish.
I guess at this point I'm only playing Devil's Advocate, since I don't really care about Cavendish (nor do I care that much about Rebecca). Just wanted to remind people to keep things in perspective :)
Is there even a need for a payoff right now? It's not like this tournament is going to decide the fate of Dressrosa. Those people are fighting for a fucking magical fruit. And Rebecca is not going to become useless if she loses.
Wouldn't it make more sense for the payoff to happen outside of the context of the Colosseum, later down the arc?
Her winning would show that she's at least worth facing the Donquixote family, that's far more important than any nonsense with Cavendish.
edit: Monkey King's comment is far more sound than any of those other ideas thrown around on this page.
@Monkey:
Having her lose against an actual Dofla Family member has about 100 times the emotional implication than losing against a random idiot like Cavendish.
@Monkey:
Having her lose against an actual Dofla Family member has about 100 times the emotional implication than losing against a random idiot like Cavendish.
But seeing Rebecca struggle and not succeed is good for the story, as it makes her more of a sympathetic character. Granted, as you outlined, that can happen in the next round too, but this round can also satisfy that purpose. Depending on how it's done, it could also develop Cavendish (what would Cavendish think of Rebecca trying so hard and failing? She's just weak and should give up? That it's commendable? What would he think of the crowd in that situation? Nonchalant? Get angry at them?)
So we could gain a lot, stroytelling-wise, from a Rebecca loss in Block D.
^ that. And also, her loss against a Family member kind of necessitates one-on-ones for the next round. Arguably, that would drag this tournament out too much.
I have no clue what y'all arguing about… But here is a fact: Rebecca can't beat Cavendish, doesn't matter if you think it's true or not. Cavendish has received more hype than Rebecca, Oda doesn't give someone hype like that and let a nobody beat the person NOPE. Only way Cavendish is losing is if the fight gets interrupted or falls of the ring or distracted or something like that, I don't ever see Rebecca beating Cavendish in a fight ONE on ONE, even Chinjao himself commented how cavendish isn't a pushover.
But the question I have here is- Are you guys trying to say that if Rebecca was serious and attacked Luffy she would've caused damage to Luffy or what?
I doubt we have seen the best of caven or rebecca. I think the tourny will end in an uprise of the gladiators. Luffy has to throw this situation in chaos. I think Cavendish will pull a ill put off our fight blah blah. They still havethe marines outside waiting on them.
I so want Cavendish to win you won't believe it.
The guys who support the predicition that Becca is winning this round gave some pretty good arguments, and so did Dark Ritual and whoever think Cavendish is levels stronger than her, even if she isn't weak herself.
But I really like Cavendish, he's one of the most amusing characters I've seen in a while, thats why I am hoping that he isn't going to lose in his first match.
Why don't we change topic? Anyways I got a question, I'm I the only one who didn't know Oda already showed Camie and star fish back then before he even introduced them?
!
I have no clue what y'all arguing about… But here is a fact: Rebecca can't beat Cavendish, doesn't matter if you think it's true or not. Cavendish has received more hype than Rebecca, Oda doesn't give someone hype like that and let a nobody beat the person NOPE. Only way Cavendish is losing is if the fight gets interrupted or falls of the ring or distracted or something like that, I don't ever see Rebecca beating Cavendish in a fight ONE on ONE, even Chinjao himself commented how cavendish isn't a pushover.
Fundamental flaw in this is that Rebecca is not 'a nobody'. Also, hyped characters getting trounced or otherwise beaten by 'nobodies' is a way of hyping said nobodies. See Maynard.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Why don't we change topic? Anyways I got a question, I'm I the only one who didn't know Oda already showed Camie and star fish back then before he even introduced them?
[http://www.onepiecebay.net/manga/mangas/One Piece/215 - Last Waltz/One Piece - 215 - 00.jpg](http://www.onepiecebay.net/manga/mangas/One Piece/215 - Last Waltz/One Piece - 215 - 00.jpg)
This isn't even remotely related to the current chapter; there are threads for things like this.
Camie and Papagg were rescued by Hachi in his cover story, then traded to Macro's lot for a map, then rescued because the map was fake (but it wasn't), then they hung out with Hachi after and they opened the Takoyaki stand together.
@NER:
I so want Cavendish to win you won't believe it.
The guys who support the predicition that Becca is winning this round gave some pretty good arguments, and so did Dark Ritual and whoever think Cavendish is levels stronger than her, even if she isn't weak herself.
But I really like Cavendish, he's one of the most amusing characters I've seen in a while, thats why I am hoping that he isn't going to lose in his first match.
And this a good thing, that's what forums and threads like this are meant for- To give people options, undecided on which theory to go for which makes them curious and eager for next chapter to find out the answer.
http://www.batoto.net/read/_/194383/one-piece_ch721_by_powermanga/8
http://www.batoto.net/read/_/194383/one-piece_ch721_by_powermanga/9
Has it been noted or discussed about Thunder Soldier possibly losing his leg in the flashback during the fight? Does he have both his legs on page 8 2nd panel? He might of been fighting and running for 2 days…bound to slip up or get tired.
I would think Diamante would know who the toy was if he himself had the Toy Devil Fruit which makes me believe he does not have it. I can't imagine pretoyism that Thunder Soldier was not someone of importance.
Is Thunder Soldier/One Leg/Sol's hat a part of him? Can he take it off? It was damage during the fight but not damaged now. If it is a part of him then toys can heal...weird. Maybe his leg can be reattached while he is still in toy form(that is of course he knows where it is).
Fundamental flaw in this is that Rebecca is not 'a nobody'. Also, hyped characters getting trounced or otherwise beaten by 'nobodies' is a way of hyping said nobodies. See Maynard.
Rebecca is a nobody as far as I know. When I talk about hyping and nobody I meant things like this-
Supernovas was hyped but got easily wiped out by Kizaru("Kizaru isn't a nobody" cuz he's an Admiral, we expected that much from him), Ace got hyped but got beat by Blackbeard("BB isn't a nobody" considering Shanks comment, BB new Devilfruit), Zoro was hyped beginning of series as this strong guy but beat easily by Mihawk("Mihawk isn't a nobody" cuz he was stated to be strongest swordsman etc).
Now compare those examples to Cavendish and Rebecca and tell me that Rebecca isn't "a nobody" again? And Maynard didn't get any hype just that he was a Vice- Admiral but then he got beat easily and later Oda revealed he was a rookie VA.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
http://www.batoto.net/read/_/194383/one-piece_ch721_by_powermanga/8
http://www.batoto.net/read/_/194383/one-piece_ch721_by_powermanga/9Has it been noted or discussed about Thunder Soldier possibly losing his leg in the flashback during the fight? Does he have both his legs on page 8 2nd panel? He might of been fighting and running for 2 days…bound to slip up or get tired.
I would think Diamante would know who the toy was if he himself had the Toy Devil Fruit which makes me believe he does not have it. I can't imagine pretoyism that Thunder Soldier was not someone of importance.
Is Thunder Soldier/One Leg/Sol's hat a part of him? Can he take it off? It was damage during the fight but not damaged now. If it is a part of him then toys can heal...weird. Maybe his leg can be reattached while he is still in toy form(that is of course he knows where it is).
In viz HD scan it shows clearly that Toy soldier has always had one leg since anytime he has appeared in manga so far.
^ that. And also, her loss against a Family member kind of necessitates one-on-ones for the next round. Arguably, that would drag this tournament out too much.
She can still be beaten or used in some ways after the tournament. Not to mention all the losers fall down and get turned into toys (or whatever happens there). Certainly when Luffy would find out, he wouldn't be happy about it. It isn't as if she can only be beaten by a Doflamingo member in this tournament during the arc.
Rebecca is a nobody as far as I know. When I talk about hyping and nobody I meant things like this-
Supernovas was hyped but got easily wiped out by Kizaru("Kizaru isn't a nobody" cuz he's an Admiral, we expected that much from him), Ace got hyped but got beat by Blackbeard("BB isn't a nobody" considering Shanks comment, BB new Devilfruit), Zoro was hyped beginning of series as this strong guy but beat easily by Mihawk("Mihawk isn't a nobody" cuz he was stated to be strongest swordsman etc).
Now compare those examples to Cavendish and Rebecca and tell me that Rebecca isn't "a nobody" again? And Maynard didn't get any hype just that he was a Vice- Admiral but then he got beat easily and later Oda revealed he was a rookie VA.
Maynard had a chapter named after him. Being a VA is also hype. And he trashed up Gambia pretty casually.
Blackbeard had the hype you said, other than the powers; we knew nothing of them before the fight itself.
Rebecca's an important character in the Dressrosa story, she's labelled as the 'undefeated woman' of the colosseum, unlike the other prisoner gladiators she's not suffered any visible harm in the colosseum, she's apparently been taught the Kyros/Ricky fighting style, she's known to be very fast. That's enough, isn't it? She's not random gladiator #406; she's a significant character who we at the very least know isn't weak. How is she a nobody?
Maynard had a chapter named after him. Being a VA is also hype. And he trashed up Gambia pretty casually.
Blackbeard had the hype you said, other than the powers; we knew nothing of them before the fight itself.
Rebecca's an important character in the Dressrosa story, she's labelled as the 'undefeated woman' of the colosseum, unlike the other prisoner gladiators she's not suffered any visible harm in the colosseum, she's apparently been taught the Kyros/Ricky fighting style, she's known to be very fast. That's enough, isn't it? She's not random gladiator #406; she's a significant character who we at the very least know isn't weak. How is she a nobody?
Dude your pretty bad at this stuff. Maynard got hype cuz he had a chapter named after him and he trashed Gambia, who da fu*k is Gambia? The dude we first saw in one page and next page he's in trash? How is that a hype? The only hype Maynard had was he is a VA but he got trashed by someone else who received his own hype Bart(crazy rookie from one year ago).
People thought Ace was gonna beat BB but after BB gets hyped by Shanks people changed their mind to "Ace would be murdered by BB" and then fight happened(Get your fact straight man).
Rebecca is an important character same level importance as Vivi but Rebecca is a nobody compared to Cavendish cuz she's has received no hype in strength comparable to Cavendish but she has received more hype in character importance than Cavendish. You mentioned she was called the "Undefeated champion" but that same chapter a warrior who has won more fight than most gladiators there was said to bully her a lot who Luffy trashed easily(that isn't a hype but a "meh she's just another normal girl").
Rebecca is an important character same level importance as Vivi but Rebecca is a nobody compared to Cavendish cuz she's has received no hype in strength comparable to Cavendish but she has received more hype in character importance than Cavendish. You mentioned she was called the "Undefeated champion" but that same chapter a warrior who has won more fight than most gladiators there was said to bully her a lot who Luffy trashed easily(that isn't a hype but a "meh she's just another normal girl").
It is hard to reconcile 'undefeated champion' with being bullied by that guy. It probably means she's undefeated in the arena but out of it displays the same half-heartedness she did with Luffy. It may be likely she hasn't faced bully in the arena itself. The prisoners say they're there till they die but we don't know how often death matches occur. We also don't yet know how long she's been a prisoner.
There's also the simple fact that the prize of the mera-mera has attracted a whole new level of talent that otherwise wouldn't have bothered with the arena before.
She may surprise us, there's going to be a certain narrative weight behind her being a princess but the odds aren't in her favor.
At the same time you have to keep in mind the gladiators are (relative) fodder. Rebecca doesn't have to be THAT strong to survive.
What about the possible connection to Kyros? Both undefeated, and then the lack of even wounds. She was being contrasted against the prisoners, probably in part why she's wearing nothing, so we see she literally has no scars or injuries despite her circumstances.
I guess at this point I'm only playing Devil's Advocate, since I don't really care about Cavendish (nor do I care that much about Rebecca).
Do you think you would care more about her if she won a block match and defeated Cavendish? Obviously getting positive exposure during that time, and negative reactions from the crowd.
Just wanted to remind people to keep things in perspective :)
I appreciate that, I thought your posts were pretty fair.
Rebecca is an important character same level importance as Vivi but Rebecca is a nobody compared to Cavendish cuz she's has received no hype in strength comparable to Cavendish but she has received more hype in character importance than Cavendish. You mentioned she was called the "Undefeated champion" but that same chapter a warrior who has won more fight than most gladiators there was said to bully her a lot who Luffy trashed easily(that isn't a hype but a "meh she's just another normal girl").
You know I had the same thought as you about Rebeca but the last two chapter have showed me that she isn't what I thought she was, some people we're saying that she's another princess just like Vivi and Shirahoshi and in fact she is, she's determined like Vivi and devoted like Shirahoshi, she wants to take Doflamingo down because she doesn't want to be protected anymore but without her knowledge she's actually fighting for the very people who are hating on her right now while Vivi was fighting to protect the people who loved her and apparently she has kept her mothers wish about no hurting anybody just like Shirahoshi did (Spartan/gladiators was probably bulling her because they know she won't hurt them), we saw how the gladiators look like with missing limbs and shit and yet Rebeca doesn't seem to have any injuries to the point of Luffy commenting on how she doesn't look like a gladiator at all and the comment about her speed (people cannot compare it to Luffy's) we have seen some of this gladiators and If Rebeca is really fast she won't have a problem evading their attacks and winning by forfeit due to lack of stamina from the gladiators.
Dude your pretty bad at this stuff.
Thanks.
Maynard got hype cuz he had a chapter named after him and he trashed Gambia, who da fu*k is Gambia? The dude we first saw in one page and next page he's in trash? How is that a hype? The only hype Maynard had was he is a VA but he got trashed by someone else who received his own hype Bart(crazy rookie from one year ago).
Yup, taking out some rookie with a decent bounty who's been in the NW for a year like he's trash is pretty commendable. Reinforces the sense of toughness you get from someone being a VA.
If Maynard hadn't been hyped in the first place, his off-panel defeat by Bartolomeo would have meant a lot less.
People thought Ace was gonna beat BB but after BB gets hyped by Shanks people changed their mind to "Ace would be murdered by BB" and then fight happened(Get your fact straight man).
I don't see what your point is at all here. As I said, this was his hype; the Yami Yami was not. You're agreeing with me but stating it as if it were disagreement?
Rebecca is an important character same level importance as Vivi but Rebecca is a nobody compared to Cavendish cuz she's has received no hype in strength comparable to Cavendish but she has received more hype in character importance than Cavendish. You mentioned she was called the "Undefeated champion" but that same chapter a warrior who has won more fight than most gladiators there was said to bully her a lot who Luffy trashed easily(that isn't a hype but a "meh she's just another normal girl").
I like how you picked up on the one line as it was in the context we had ages ago and ignored everything else.
unlike the other prisoner gladiators she's not suffered any visible harm in the colosseum, she's apparently been taught the Kyros/Ricky fighting style, she's known to be very fast.
Surely that all counts for something?
Rebecca is an important character same level importance as Vivi but Rebecca is a nobody compared to Cavendish cuz she's has received no hype in strength comparable to Cavendish but she has received more hype in character importance than Cavendish. You mentioned she was called the "Undefeated champion" but that same chapter a warrior who has won more fight than most gladiators there was said to bully her a lot who Luffy trashed easily(that isn't a hype but a "meh she's just another normal girl").
It is hard to reconcile 'undefeated champion' with being bullied by that guy. It probably means she's undefeated in the arena but out of it displays the same half-heartedness she did with Luffy. It may be likely she hasn't faced bully in the arena itself. The prisoners say they're there till they die but we don't know how often death matches occur. We also don't yet know how long she's been a prisoner.
There's also the simple fact that the prize of the mera-mera has attracted a whole new level of talent that otherwise wouldn't have bothered with the arena before.
She may surprise us, there's going to be a certain narrative weight behind her being a princess but the odds aren't in her favor.
Yup, taking out some rookie with a decent bounty who's been in the NW for a year like he's trash is pretty commendable. Reinforces the sense of toughness you get from someone being a VA.
If Maynard hadn't been hyped in the first place, his off-panel defeat by Bartolomeo would have meant a lot less.
Gambia is no rookie, he just some underling of the crazy rookie Bart, Gambia is not the captain Bart is. Maynard taking out Gambia wasn't any hype we expected that considering other VA's we've seen are Smoker and Vergo, the only hype there was Bart a rookie with low bounty beat a VA.
I don't see what your point is at all here. As I said, this was his hype; the Yami Yami was not. You're agreeing with me but stating it as if it were disagreement?
Please don't change words and try to make things sound good in your way, go back and read what I said. BB got hyped cuz of Shanks comment and his fruit… At that moment people was saying BB is strong as Shanks without Devilfruit but now he has Devilfruit he's probably stronger than WB himself(I've been reading one piece manga for awhile so I know how people reacted to most chapter that came out back then).
I like how you picked up on the one line as it was in the context we had ages ago and ignored everything else.
I didn't pick anything just expressing myself.
Surely that all counts for something?
All I'm saying, as far as I know Cavnedish has received more hype in strength than Rebecca, Rebecca defeating Cavendish in block D one on one will underwhelm Cavendish character. It will be first time Oda hyped a character up and let someone we know nothing about their strength defeat 'em. So for me and most to accept Rebecca defeating Cavendish will mean Oda will hype Rebecca up in block D match with other gladiators or more flashbacks or people in the crowd/Daimentai commenting about her strength. But till that happens, no way is Rebecca gonna beat Cavendish fair and square.
@CCC:
While not really trying… against the fastest character in OP so far besides Kizaru and Lucky Rou.
Why is Lucky Roo considered so fast?
You know I had the same thought as you about Rebeca but the last two chapter have showed me that she isn't what I thought she was, some people we're saying that she's another princess just like Vivi and Shirahoshi and in fact she is, she's determined like Vivi and devoted like Shirahoshi, she wants to take Doflamingo down because she doesn't want to be protected anymore but without her knowledge she's actually fighting for the very people who are hating on her right now while Vivi was fighting to protect the people who loved her and apparently she has kept her mothers wish about no hurting anybody just like Shirahoshi did (Spartan/gladiators was probably bulling her because they know she won't hurt them), we saw how the gladiators look like with missing limbs and shit and yet Rebeca doesn't seem to have any injuries to the point of Luffy commenting on how she doesn't look like a gladiator at all and the comment about her speed (people cannot compare it to Luffy's) we have seen some of this gladiators and If Rebeca is really fast she won't have a problem evading their attacks and winning by forfeit due to lack of stamina from the gladiators.
Rebecca getting or not liked doesn't change anything, the fact is she wants to beat Doflamingo and Vivi was also a fighter she wanted to defeat Crocodile all by herself without anyone dying, this lead to Luffy punching her in the face( saying: people die in war, you can't protect everyone by yourself). Same thing is happening with Rebecca- she wants to defeat Doflamingo and protect the ones who's been protecting her but unlike Vivi we haven't seen her strength what she's capable of but with hints here and there we've been getting, its not looking like she's the powerhouse you guys think she is.
And yeah Vivi got played with by Crocodile, Croc beat her without even touching her telling her/readers resolve is not enough without strength you can't do shit, so I see Doflamingo doing the same with Rebecca.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Why is Lucky Roo considered so fast?
Rumor has it that Lucky Roo is the fastest person in One piece.
Also I'm really am not sure about Luffy speed since the timeskip. I mean even the pulp swordsman manage to react in time to it.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Rumor has it that Lucky Roo is the fastest person in One piece.
Because he is fat and paradox is cool?
Also I'm really am not sure about Luffy speed since the timeskip. I mean even the pulp swordsman manage to react in time to it.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Because he is fat and paradox is cool?
Luffy has speed, especially when he enters gear 2nd. Since Timeskip anytime Luffy goes gear 2nd no character has been able to keep up with his speed- PX, Hody, CC, Smoker etc
And no. I forgotten how the rumor about Lucky Roo came to be.
Luffy has speed, especially when he enters gear 2nd. Since Timeskip anytime Luffy goes gear 2nd no character has been able to keep up with his speed- PX, Hody, CC, Smoker etc
Out of those examples only one I remember speed being relevant is the one against Smoker in Tashigi's body.
It is hard to reconcile 'undefeated champion' with being bullied by that guy. It probably means she's undefeated in the arena but out of it displays the same half-heartedness she did with Luffy. It may be likely she hasn't faced bully in the arena itself. The prisoners say they're there till they die but we don't know how often death matches occur. We also don't yet know how long she's been a prisoner.
There's also the simple fact that the prize of the mera-mera has attracted a whole new level of talent that otherwise wouldn't have bothered with the arena before.
She may surprise us, there's going to be a certain narrative weight behind her being a princess but the odds aren't in her favor.
Exactly, even her own trainer Toy soldier doesn't believe in her strength
! scene where Toy soldier said: "You can't defeat or protect anyone by crying Toy soldier wants to protect her but Rebecca wants to protect Toy soldier by winning mera mera and defeating Doflamingo personally and quick so no one has to fight, Damn this rings a bell- yeah Vivi wanted to protect everyone so there won't be any war but her people wants to protect her by going to fight.
Seeing the level of 52 times champion of the coliseum I really think it is just bad for such a pirate as Cavendish to lose against her. She could simply win with Caven not being here.
What about the possible connection to Kyros? Both undefeated, and then the lack of even wounds. She was being contrasted against the prisoners, probably in part why she's wearing nothing, so we see she literally has no scars or injuries despite her circumstances.
Do you think you would care more about her if she won a block match and defeated Cavendish? Obviously getting positive exposure during that time, and negative reactions from the crowd.
I appreciate that, I thought your posts were pretty fair.
Of course, the portrayal puts her above the prisoners - and Kyros is probably either her father or her grandfather (but this was discussed often enough). I just wanted to point out that any fighter at a certain level would have no problem to fight against such opponents and could come out unscathed out of as many fights as Kyros did.
I think the issue is not that I'm particularly "not interested" in her, but I'm a bit more detached from manga nowadays. Maybe it's because I hit the "you have so many things going on in real life" phase :D If I really think about it though, I'm just not particularly interested in this "princess rising from the dust" story again (and not because it was - more or less - done in Alabasta, just because it's so abundant in literature etc., I guess). But I do believe that things will become more complex and interesting when we get more on Dofla's backstory and his connection to this kingdom.
So I think the answer to your question would be "yes", since Rebecca winning and having to go against one of Dofla's lackeys might shed more light on the whole affair!
Well, that's my principle, to stay as objective as possible (of course it's never possible to be totally so). Except when I'm (intentionally :P) being a fanboy. Then it's allowed :P
And in this case, to be honest, the main argument against Rebecca being strong was those gladiators mocking her - which we now know wasn't about her strength, but her provenience.
Even you said you thought Cavendish would win, till we got that flashback. And we also got to see how she got trained in that particular swordfighting technique. So I don't really think Oda is pulling a "Maynard" on us, at least with a character who will certainly play an import role in this arc. I just don't know if it'll be enough to win against a New World pirate which has lived there for 3 years and has quite a bounty on his head.
That said, I have faith that Oda can make it go either way and still keep things interesting.
Seeing the level of 52 times champion of the coliseum I really think it is just bad for such a pirate as Cavendish to lose against her. She could simply win with Caven not being here.
Now this are people who understand what I'm saying and where I'm going.. If a 52 times champion gladiator was defeated by Luffy by a flip of hand then I'm not expecting much from the "Undefeated champion". But this can be questioned since we don't really know when she became a gladiator.
Rebecca will win and then we will have a 8 man battle royale with the family and 4 finalists. Oda wont use another 20 chapters just for the colliseum, we have too much shit going on outside of it for oda to have 5 normal fights. Depending on who wins D, we can have several scenarios. If cavendish wins, he will attack luffy and bartolomeo will jump in to protect him, resulting in a extremely funny situation. Otherwise Rebecca fighting against a Family member, losing and then getting booed by the family members and crowd could make luffy very angry.
So far the winners of the block tournament are all pirates.The gladiators shown so far, were all weak, Spartan for example. Cavendish winning would be better. We can have a bunch of well known new world pirates against the Donquixote family. That way, if all the 4 block winners ends up winning, against the 4 donquixote representatives, we can have a 4 way fight between Burgess, Bartolomeo, Cavendish and Luffy, or whatever Gats decides on doing, with the match ups.
Rebecca getting or not liked doesn't change anything, the fact is she wants to beat Doflamingo and Vivi was also a fighter she wanted to defeat Crocodile all by herself without anyone dying, this lead to Luffy punching her in the face( saying: people die in war, you can't protect everyone by yourself). Same thing is happening with Rebecca- she wants to defeat Doflamingo and protect the ones who's been protecting her but unlike Vivi we haven't seen her strength what she's capable of but with hints here and there we've been getting, its not looking like she's the powerhouse you guys think she is.
And yeah Vivi got played with by Crocodile, Croc beat her without even touching her telling her/readers resolve is not enough without strength you can't do shit, so I see Doflamingo doing the same with Rebecca.
Like I said I was thinking like you but I'm a bit skeptical about her now, we know that it will play out the same way it did with Vivi If she's the one going against Doflamingo but what I tried to tell you is that she isn't as weak as we might think ( Pls don't let me down)
Out of those examples only one I remember speed being relevant is the one against Smoker in Tashigi's body.
What You forgot about CC's face expressions so fast, PX noticing Luffy just when he was ready to punch him, for some reasons I don't remember Hody's fight very well but when Luffy went G2, Hody didn't see what hit him
I just wanted to point out that any fighter at a certain level would have no problem to fight against such opponents and could come out unscathed out of as many fights as Kyros did. I just don't know if it'll be enough to win against a New World pirate which has lived there for 3 years and has quite a bounty on his head.
Logically, of course that would be the case. From the narrative's point of view Kyros is a legend for a reason, and if there's a parallel being drawn I imagine there will be a reason for that as well. At least to the point that she is equal to or greater than a high bounty pirate. Or I'm completely wrong.
I think the issue is not that I'm particularly "not interested" in her, but I'm a bit more detached from manga nowadays. Maybe it's because I hit the "you have so many things going on in real life" phase […] That's my principle, to stay as objective as possible (of course it's never possible to be totally so).
Same on both, though One Piece has always held my attention regarding the former.
My friend and I started a podcast, and we cover this chapter (along with Chapter zero and 720) in this episode!
[http://twoguysononepiece.tumblr.com/post/61797980593/episode-two-stadium-love
F](http://twoguysononepiece.tumblr.com/post/61797980593/episode-two-stadium-love)rom what I can tell skimming through the thread now, we may not go as in depth as you goes do, but I hope we can offer something from our perspective (and co-podcaster Jeff pointed out something that blew my mind and convinced me Rebecca will eat the Mera Mera no Mi in the recording)
Hope you give it a chance and a listen!
Logically, of course that would be the case. From the narrative's point of view Kyros is a legend for a reason, and if there's a parallel being drawn I imagine there will be a reason for that as well. At least to the point that she is equal to or greater than a high bounty pirate. Or I'm completely wrong.
Same on both, though One Piece has always held my attention regarding the former.
I guess you're on to something there :D We'll just have to wait and see how things develop.
I do notice you always try to see both sides of the same coin, so it's cool. And yeah, I am still following several manga (and manwha) at this point, but I'm still most hyped for One Piece (and The Breaker New Waves).