You know, on this I-feel-racist-but-wish-I-didn't thing …
I'm scared of black people. Well, black strangers who are not tiny and not old who I see around and about in some areas at some times.
You know, on this I-feel-racist-but-wish-I-didn't thing …
I'm scared of black people. Well, black strangers who are not tiny and not old who I see around and about in some areas at some times.
I have a hard time trusting practising romani.
That's my prejudice confession
Thx everyone for not starting a shitstorm on me ;) I rly appreciate that <3
I almost did until I read what you said and whatnot.
The Babusa is asian.
I'm afraid of white people.
Why are they so pale, I don't understand.
I could have started a shitstorm. But at this point, it's honestly refreshing to see white people acknowledge racism and their own racist behaviors, instead of desperately trying to distance themselves from it like it's murder.
I've always held this belief that everybody white, black, yellow or whatever is prone to be a bit racist and to hold prejudices, so it's always interesting to hear from people who feel they're beyond that.
And not that it really matters but isn't supernova originally from like Pakistan?
Supernova is a Brit. >_>
And always has been.~
Footnote: I'm above racism. Lick my feet.
Oh really? The way he talks about Pakistan lead me to believe he had some deeper roots there
But it's not the first time i misplaced someone on the forum
^^
I'm a British Pakistani
so yeah I'm brown
@Holy:
why doesn't anybody ever help me with MY problems in this thread
Your not the only one complaining. No one bothers with mine (just being snarky)
@Jazzy:
Supernova is a Brit. >_>
And always has been.~
Footnote: I'm above racism. Lick my feet.
Uh…one can be British and not be English/Scottish/Welsh or originally any kind of European :I
They have immigrants too lol.
--- Update From New Post Merge ---
Speaking of interesting racism.
Chrissie was telling me about various racisms she sees in Greeks and Cypriots.
And that in Cyprus they can be racist toward Arabs, they have like a slur or something they use. Like not N word level? But kind of casually dehumanizing.
But they don't use it for Syrians or Lebanese Arabs.
Which I found really interesting. But I guess racist Cypriots are like "Oh those guys? Those guys are normal."
Probably because they're like next door neighbors, Cypriots visit (or used to with Syria) and share customs and even look pretty much exactly the same. I just found it really funny.
Like an international version of "Oh my latino neighbor is cool and fine, I y'know mean those ones."
That's intersting to learn that Greece/ Cyprus has a thing or two with Arabs. It been this way since the Ottoman Empire
@joekido:
That's intersting to learn that Greece/ Cyprus has a thing or two with Arabs. It been this way since the Ottoman Empire
Uh, lots of people have racism toward Arabs due to news events and whatnot. It's not really notable that Greeks or Cypriots share some.
And the Ottoman Empire was Turkish ruled, not Arab.
Turks too have their particular racisms against Arabs. During the Ottoman Empire the Arab areas were the neglected ass end of the Turkish realm. I'd imagine Turkish stereotypes of Arabs are similar to American stereotypes of Mexicans.
Something along the lines of "those violent poverty stricken brown(er) people from down there in Savage-Land".
Though I wouldn't be surprised if there were some undercurrent of "tan man's burder" with the current politics, with Turkish politicians like Erdogan behaving all like "these simple savage people need our wise hand of guidance, we their wise Muslim father".
While Greeks and Turks have racisms toward each-other galore. I could barely post positive things about Istanbul on facebook for worry of relatives of Chrissie's being upset by it.
Then again, the scars are so fresh in her family.
The Cypriots are self-explanatory, her dad being a victim of literal ethnic cleansing. And the Greek family members are descendents of Pontic Greeks, a whole sub-ethnicity of Greeks essentially wiped clear of this one area in modern Turkey.
The whole thing is sad :<
@Monkey:
Uh…one can be British and not be English/Scottish/Welsh or originally any kind of European :I
They have immigrants too lol.
I'm aware.
By that token, though, I'm an American Nicaraguan. Though I'm fully Americanized despite having a Nicaraguan background and being raised in a Spanish household. Just like, I would imagine, Super is more Britianized than Pakastained.
Obviously, if you're a specific ethnicity, you're not allowed to talk about that ethnicity if you were raised in a different country entirely.
DUUUUUH.
@Monkey:
Like an international version of "Oh my latino neighbor is cool and fine, I y'know mean those ones."
I once had a lady say, "I only do Mexicans in Mexico."
Then somebody asked her about [Latino friend], and she was all "Oh, but he's fine".
I once had a lady say, "I only do Mexicans in Mexico."
Then somebody asked her about [Latino friend], and she was all "Oh, but he's fine".
Do Mexicans, as in?
Fuck them.
You know, like "do someone", "bone someone", etcetera.
That's what I thought, but what's the difference between doing Mexicans in Mexico or elsewhere
That's what I thought, but what's the difference between doing Mexicans in Mexico or elsewhere
I think it's fairly obvious that prejudice isn't rational.
Funny someone mentioned how the news effects people so much towards having a biased outlook.
For example today we had a new guy start up. I was helping train him and we got chatting as you do. Turns out he is from Iraq. I guess where I'm going with this is that a lot of people might jump the gun due to the news and maybe a few years back I might have been cautious or walked of eggshells due to the war. Thankfully I'm a bit older and wiser and didn't have that at all. We pretty much chatted about cool destinations and places worth a visit. He even mentioned some cool regions in the north worth visiting one day, as well as a handful of other countries that are overlooked.
Looking back at that conversation…I wonder if he felt at all tense about naming his country of Origin. Either way I'm glad their was not visible divide or whatnot that could have prevented us from such an interesting conversation.
--- Update From New Post Merge ---
@Monkey:
Uh…one can be British and not be English/Scottish/Welsh or originally any kind of European :I
They have immigrants too lol.
our awesome restaurants are a testament to that. Lol
@Jazzy:
Footnote: I'm above racism. Lick my feet.
We may need to study you further
Would you mind terribly being kept in a habitat that loooks exactly like your work and home life
That's what I thought, but what's the difference between doing Mexicans in Mexico or elsewhere
Could be that whole anything goes on vacation but back home you gotta keep up apperances
But i'm just guessing
What happens in …......
stays in .......
This isn't just the kind of thing orientated around Mexico I can assure you. Lol but yeah I think you hit the nail on the head. Basically somewhere far away enough that you don't mind making a total slutty ass of yourself without repercussions.
Fuck them.
You know, like "do someone", "bone someone", etcetera.
To be fair, she could also have been using the word 'do' in that sort of nebulous, wild-card of meaning way. Like how, for example, I might say "I don't do mornings", because I am not a morning panda. In which case I suppose what she said would be interpreted as… I don't associate with Mexicans, perhaps?
Of course that wouldn't really change the context of what she said at all, so I suppose I don't really have a point here, aside perhaps from that it was fair to ask for clarification of what she meant.
not to be racist but they arrent nice people at all.
I always find it amusing how people almost unfailingly use the phrase 'not to be X' immediately preceding them, in fact, being X, as if saying they aren't changes the thing. The way people use the phrase is like someone walking up to a person, saying "Not to hit you, but…", and then slugging them.
At any rate, point being, you're being racist. I mean, look at your statement: you are stereotyping a group of people, in a negative manner, based on their race. That's pretty much precisely what racism is, so you really can't just beg off on saying you don't intend to be racist by making that statement.
not to be racist but they arrent nice people at all.
i still can't figure out if this is some form of humour I've overlooked or just a genuine idiot not worth my time.
@Jazzy:
I'm aware.
By that token, though, I'm an American Nicaraguan. Though I'm fully Americanized despite having a Nicaraguan background and being raised in a Spanish household. Just like, I would imagine, Super is more Britianized than Pakastained.
Obviously, if you're a specific ethnicity, you're not allowed to talk about that ethnicity if you were raised in a different country entirely.
DUUUUUH.
But we're talking race lol, not ethnicity.
People from Pakistan look real different from Englishmen!
What happens in …......
stays in .......
This isn't just the kind of thing orientated around Mexico I can assure you. Lol but yeah I think you hit the nail on the head. Basically somewhere far away enough that you don't mind making a total slutty ass of yourself without repercussions.
Well back home people do either sneak around too. That or make far too huge a deal of it
I always been a bit weirded out by the second one. When someone makes a huge deal out of what race the person they're dating is. Like making that the focal point of the relationship, kind of like hey look at this black guy i'm dating he's not ancesterally from around here y'know just pointing it out in case you missed it. Dunno if that counts as racism but it has to be something with a label
Also pakastained sounds a bit fun
Pakastained sounds a bit racist…. like its been copy/pasted from an EDL voter. Lol
@Monkey:
But we're talking race lol, not ethnicity.
People from Pakistan look real different from Englishmen!
Fucking fuck. Did I get them mixed up?
So wait… Does that make him ethnically English and his race is Pakastani? I don't get all the fancy color/culture association words at all.
@Jazzy:
Fucking fuck. Did I get them mixed up?
So wait… Does that make him ethnically English and his race is Pakastani? I don't get all the fancy color/culture association words at all.
"Race" is an ill-defined word but it almost always primarily gets associated with ethnicity. I don't know what distinction Zephos is trying to make in this situation.
"Race" is an ill-defined word but it almost always primarily gets associated with ethnicity. I don't know what distinction Zephos is trying to make in this situation.
Race is how you navigate society, usually based on outward physical features. Ethnicity is your cultural heritage, which is usually different from and more specific than your race. Nationality is where you live, though you can identify more with where you were born or raised (which often overlaps with your ethnicity).
Race is how you navigate society, usually based on outward physical features. Ethnicity is your cultural heritage, which is usually different from and more specific than your race. Nationality is where you live, though you can identify more with where you were born or raised (which often overlaps with your ethnicity).
First of all, even your definition is extremely broad/vague so as to not clarify anything.
But as I said before, the term is extremely ill-defined, and your provided definition is by no means some universal standard. The Wikipedia article is suprisingly good at providing a high-level overview of many different definitions, factors, historical trends, and debates surrounding race, but when it comes down to it most people are only referring to one facet of everything that could possibly be encompassed by "race" when they discuss race or racism. Physical features are a big part of it, which are in turn very closely related to ethnicity. But racism is not limited to physical features, and often goes even deeper into ethnic and cultural customs (rituals, religion even), history (e.g. "Jews are all money-grubbers), and social patterns ("black people are loud and obnoxious"). All this is to say when you say "haha but we're talking about race and not ethnicity" you aren't exactly defining the terms of the discussion.
First of all, even your definition is extremely broad/vague so as to not clarify anything.
But as I said before, the term is extremely ill-defined, and your provided definition is by no means some universal standard. The Wikipedia article is suprisingly good at providing a high-level overview of many different definitions, factors, historical trends, and debates surrounding race, but when it comes down to it most people are only referring to one facet of everything that could possibly be encompassed by "race" when they discuss race or racism. Physical features are a big part of it, which are in turn very closely related to ethnicity. But racism is not limited to physical features, and often goes even deeper into ethnic and cultural customs (rituals, religion even), history (e.g. "Jews are all money-grubbers), and social patterns ("black people are loud and obnoxious"). All this is to say when you say "haha but we're talking about race and not ethnicity" you aren't exactly defining the terms of the discussion.
Then take it up with MK. To be honest, I don't pretend to know what he was referencing in his own post.
I was under the impression that ethnicity and race were pretty much the same thing.
Like I'm ethnically South Asian. So I am of the South Asian race. If that makes sense. With culture being entirely a separate affair.
arlong park sociology 101
"Race" is an ill-defined word but it almost always primarily gets associated with ethnicity. I don't know what distinction Zephos is trying to make in this situation.
looks and culture
race is shit based on distinct looks
ethnicity is culture strictly
ethnicity is absolutely not based on looks, it only seems that way if you grab an ethnic group from europe and one from africa, but grab two from europe and suddenly the idea that ethnicity has anything to do with physical features is ridiculous
Compare the Irish to the Scottish. Those are ethnicities.
The Yugoslav wars were over ethnicity, are you going to try and tell me that was over physical differences? That there WERE any?
why are african american hair supplies under ethnic hair supplies at walmart tho
I was under the impression that ethnicity and race were pretty much the same thing.
Like I'm ethnically South Asian. So I am of the South Asian race. If that makes sense. With culture being entirely a separate affair.
Race isn't scientific, it's just the social interactions and casual categories based on visual appearance.
There is no "South Asia race" in any scientific sense. South Asia is an area that is defined culturally lol.
Yeah there are appearances that are distinct down there, but even that varies a ton no? There are European and East Asian looking people in South Asia, and I do mean natives.
Ethnically? Well you're from Pakistan, so that could be what? Punjabi? Sindhi? Pashto? Balochi? Something smaller?
@Monkey:
looks and culture
race is shit based on distinct looks
ethnicity is culture strictlyethnicity is absolutely not based on looks, it only seems that way if you grab an ethnic group from europe and one from africa, but grab two from europe and suddenly the idea that ethnicity has anything to do with physical features is ridiculous
Compare the Irish to the Scottish. Those are ethnicities.
The Yugoslav wars were over ethnicity, are you going to try and tell me that was over physical differences? That there WERE any?
Again you can use whatever definition you want but as I explained in my post (and the Wiki article as I mentioned), you are making a distinction that is not well-defined by any means. I don't think your interpretation affects any of the conversation or invalidates any previous posts; it actually reduces more to you saying "lol you're not using the word the way I do."
Edit: By the way, ethnicity is not scientific either. If you are referring purely to genetics, that is not the definition of ethnicity. Here is an interesting section about ethnicity vs. race.
So let me try and figure this out. If I'm a white American who's direct heritage leads back to Norway then I am…
Racially White
Ethnically Norwegian
Nationally American
Am I getting this right? Cause I'll admit this crap always confused the hell out of me.
So let me try and figure this out. If I'm a white American who's direct heritage leads back to Norway then I am…
Racially White
Ethnically Norwegian
Nationally AmericanAm I getting this right? Cause I'll admit this crap always confused the hell out of me.
That's one simplistic view people tend to take. But ethnicity is as steeped in culture and tradition as it is in ancestry, so if you do not identify with Norway beyond knowing your ancestors came from there, you might not consider it your ethnicity. To be explicit, you have Norwegian genetic ancestry. You could just as easily say that having white skin does not automatically make your race "white." But everyone interprets these things differently. This is another one of those times that make me hate language and semantics.
I was under the impression that ethnicity and race were pretty much the same thing.
Like I'm ethnically South Asian. So I am of the South Asian race. If that makes sense. With culture being entirely a separate affair.
I don't know what you mean by culture in this context, but well, let's look at this asshole for a second:
not to be racist but they arrent nice people at all.
^ Here, this guy is just referring to "Asians". The socially constructed, supposedly homogenous group of people referred to as "Asians". Does he give a shit about their ethnicity? Does he give a single shit if they're Japanese, Chinese, Korean, Vietnamese? I may be shooting in the dark here, but he probably doesn't give a single shit, I know that most people don't.
!
!
!
^ Here, all of these racists have seen a movie about a completely fictional scenario in which North Koreans attack the United States, and decide to take their frustration out on everyone they refer to as "Asians".
!
!
^ And here, a racist is actually kind enough to delineate for us, the specific ethnicities which he perceives as belonging to the Asian race. Or as he calls them, "typical Asians". BTW, this is one of the many ways you can tell that these racists are from the States, and not from the UK.
!
^ And this racist has actually confused the characters depicted in the movie, for people of another ethnicity, because they are all perceived to fall within the racial group of "typical Asians". Because to these folks, and to so many other people, ethnicity becomes erased in the social context. Race is what people see, race is what dictates the way in which people are treated in most social situations, not ethnicity. Kind of like how physical gender markers dictate how you are treated, instead of your own personal gender identification.
Do the cops give a shit if a young man is Mexican or Mixteco? No, of course not, they're all "Hispanics" in the eyes of society. And there are many people FROM SPAIN who would be perceived as white, even over here in the States. I myself recognize that even though I'm Mexican, within the social context, my race is and always will be WHITE. One look at my mom, and people ask me if I'm adopted, LOL!
Yes, people can be discriminated against specifically for their ethnicity. That's why we have words like "Oaxaquita" and "indito" getting thrown around by other Mexicans. But even then, physical markers are often assigned to those specific ethnicities. In this case, shortness and darker skin.
Sorry to everyone if I'm pissed off, but there are like two or three very unique reasons WHY I'm pissed off right now. It's not just about the discussion. One of them is rather personal, the other reason is because I just had FOUR of my wisdom teeth pulled out, so forgive me. And also now that I look back on it, this post isn't really in direct response to Supernova, so my direct apologies to him. :P
Yes, people can be discriminated against specifically for their ethnicity. That's why we have words like "Oaxaquita" and "indito" getting thrown around by other Mexicans. But even then, physical markers are often assigned to those specific ethnicities. In this case, shortness and darker skin.
This really depends; I won't disagree that physical features are by far the predominant basis for boxing people into races and for feeding discrimination. I mean, it's what EVERYONE sees right away; it's the most visible and easiest way. But there are plenty of behavioral, historical, and cultural patterns that get discriminated against regardless of appearance, but we still call it racism. I guess to be fair the world "ethnicitism" doesn't exist.
Sorry to everyone if I'm pissed off, but there are like two or three very unique reasons WHY I'm pissed off right now. It's not just about the discussion. One of them is rather personal, the other reason is because I just had FOUR of my wisdom teeth pulled out, so forgive me. And also now that I look back on it, this post isn't really in direct response to Supernova, so my direct apologies to him. :P
Not sure anyone would take issue with anything you said. Sorry about your teeth. When you say "four of my wisdom teeth" it sounds like you still have more left. I hope that's not the case ;P
Again you can use whatever definition you want but as I explained in my post (and the Wiki article as I mentioned), you are making a distinction that is not well-defined by any means.
How is that not well defined.
I gave the simpel breakdown at the top.
-Appearance
-Culture
This is really super simple. Not "poorly defined".
I don't think your interpretation affects any of the conversation or invalidates any previous posts; it actually reduces more to you saying "lol you're not using the word the way I do."
You're just bringing up the words as if they're nebulous vague synonyms that have at some point something to do with physical appearance.
But this is completely useless when trying to distinguish identical looking peoples. What word would you use to distinguish a Serb and a Croat then? They look identical.
If both race and ethnicity imply physical appearance? What word is there?
In reality what's going on here, is you're choosing to stay with the more confusing definitions you've heard. And resisting the clearer definitions I've heard. And why you would do this I have no idea.
Edit: By the way, ethnicity is not scientific either.
It never makes the pretense of being scientific in the first place, since it's talking about culture. Unless you've heard theories thrown around that people are Greek in the womb lol.
It didn't even need to be said that it isn't scientific.
If you are referring purely to genetics, that is not the definition of ethnicity. Here is an interesting section about ethnicity vs. race.
Did you read my definition of ethnicity at all?? How at any point would you have inferred I said genetics had anything to do with it at all??
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
So let me try and figure this out. If I'm a white American who's direct heritage leads back to Norway then I am…
Racially White
Ethnically Norwegian
Nationally AmericanAm I getting this right? Cause I'll admit this crap always confused the hell out of me.
Yes, that's correct.
Of course ethnicity gets really mushed and blurred (social science as it is), especially in a country like the US. The melting pot thing. And the mixed ethnic origin thing etc.
The scientific vs. non-scientific portion came from the fact that in response to Supernova saying he thought race and ethnicity were roughly equivalent, you said race isn't scientific. I don't understand why you'd even say that if you weren't juxtaposing it with ethnicity. But if not then my mistake.
As for the rest of your post, like I said you can keep using whatever definitions you want. You may have your own practical/intuitive simplifications, but that still doesn't make you automatically right. Like if you want to ignore the Wiki articles and the decades if not centuries of debate surounding this issues in sociological and academic circles, be my guest. Right now you're basically telling me the equivalent of "lol a woman is someone with a vagina everyone fucking knows that stop trying to make it complicated."
That's one simplistic view people tend to take. But ethnicity is as steeped in culture and tradition as it is in ancestry, so if you do not identify with Norway beyond knowing your ancestors came from there, you might not consider it your ethnicity. To be explicit, you have Norwegian genetic ancestry. You could just as easily say that having white skin does not automatically make your race "white." But everyone interprets these things differently. This is another one of those times that make me hate language and semantics.
So I'd like to hear your opinion on the following scenario.
Around WW1, the Balkan Wars.
In the mountains between the Greek, Ottoman, and Bulgarian forces there are small villages. These people are isolated and not hugely political toward any side, they want to just survive.
The Bulgarian army comes through, they now control the area. The people to make their lives easier begin to speak Bulgarian, worship in the Bulgarian orthodox church, and write in cyrillic.
The Bulgarians are pushed back by the Turks.
The village elects now to speak Turkish, become Sunni Muslim, and write in the Arabic script.
The Greeks finally win the territory for good.
The village chooses now Greek, Greek Orthodox, and the Greek alphabet.
Ancestery you say? Because this scenario really happend.
@Monkey:
So I'd like to hear your opinion on the following scenario.
Around WW1, the Balkan Wars.
In the mountains between the Greek, Ottoman, and Bulgarian forces there are small villages. These people are isolated and not hugely political toward any side, they want to just survive.
The Bulgarian army comes through, they now control the area. The people to make their lives easier begin to speak Bulgarian, worship in the Bulgarian orthodox church, and write in cyrillic.
The Bulgarians are pushed back by the Turks.
The village elects now to speak Turkish, become Sunni Muslim, and write in the Arabic script.
The Greeks finally win the territory for good.
The village chooses now Greek, Greek Orthodox, and the Greek alphabet.Ancestery you say? Because this scenario really happend.
I don't understand your question. When I brought up ancestry I was talking about genetic ancestry. What does this have to do with the difference between ethnicity and race?
The scientific vs. non-scientific portion came from the fact that in response to Supernova saying he thought race and ethnicity were roughly equivalent, you said race isn't scientific. I don't understand why you'd even say that if you weren't juxtaposing it with ethnicity. But if not then my mistake.
As for the rest of your post, like I said you can keep using whatever definitions you want. You may have your own practical/intuitive simplifications, but that still doesn't make you automatically right. Like if you want to ignore the Wiki articles and the decades if not centuries of debate surounding this issues in sociological and academic circles, be my guest. Right now you're basically telling me the equivalent of "lol a woman is someone with a vagina everyone fucking knows that stop trying to make it complicated."
There have definitely not been centuries of debate on ethnicity.
And the centuries of debate on racism were largely godawful racist until even just 50 years ago. And horribly un-scholarly by any modern considerations.
Sociological circles are actually very new things by and large.
And these debates are HAD by posing questions to narrow things down.
Like how ethnicity can be physical when we have Croats and Serbs as separate groups? That's not something to ignore. And it's not "folksy common sense" as you imply with the vagina comment.
Your definition of ethnicity does not actually reflect how culture spreads and retreats over groups of people. It doesn't…well...work in reality.
And yes, I will ignore wikipedia. I don't know why you would find that shocking.
@Monkey:
Race isn't scientific, it's just the social interactions and casual categories based on visual appearance.
There actually is a hard scientific aspect to race, though, at least in the sense of race of the location of one's ancestral heritage; I don't care to argue semantics about this, really, so call that what term you wish if you feel 'race' isn't appropriate. Point being, though, it is in fact possible to figure out, to some extent or other, a person's race in that sense by analyzing their genetics. As a first-paw example, my brother recently paid for one of these DNA testing things that have started to become popular. Among a plethora of other things in his results was the claim that, on his mother's side, he was either Basque, Northern Scandinavian, or both, which happens to be precisely correct.
Basically, trying to claim that race is purely a social construct is just oversimplifying the situation.