It was ok, I guess. That spread of Zoro cutting Monet in half was cool, But didn't like Tashigi being so pathetic again, always needing help or being pitted by Zoro. You'd think after the timeskip they'd show her to be competent, but I'm still viewing her as "Lol, Tashigi".
Chapter 687: Wild animal
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I agree, I hope that she eventually becomes a suitable opponent for Zoro.
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I am just gonna keep it short and explain how i see it, you can address this of course, no matter if you agree or not:
Zoro is a total brute pre-TS. He never holds back and pushes forward with sheer force. Basically, his swordsmanship is all about power and strength, he does have the honor of a swordsman but not the grace. Then he trains with the guy who said this: http://www.mangareader.net/103-2109-15/one-piece/chapter-50.html and this http://www.mangareader.net/103-2111-4/one-piece/chapter-51.html . Then he comes back and the first thing Zoro does is the same thing Mihawk did when he was introduced, cutting a galleon and talking about fate. Then Zoro goes on and gives a guy, who literally tried to kill him, the chance to run away twice, something he never did pre-TS (the fight against the 100 bounty hunters is a good example, he considered them weak and an opportunity to test his sword but he still cut them all down). Only after he would not listen Zoro cuts that guy down. Then he fights a female Logia who actually understood the difference in strength between him and her but refused to run away because she believed that he can not cut women. To prove that this is not the case, he cuts her a little bit and literally scares her shitless, showing her that he could kill her anytime he wanted. The women, just like Hyouzou on FI, refuses to listen and attacks him from behind, again the same as Hyouzou. Unfortunately for us, Tashigi interferes and cuts her down.
Now feel free to discuss this if you want
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I don't really understand how you can say that this is contradicting for Zoro. "Certain things" he doesn't like to cut may include woman, children, diamonds (would be a waste) and whateverhewantselse.
He KNOWS woman are generally weaker than man, because Kuina fucking stated it to him and this seems to be the consensus in the OP world (there may be exceptions).
Regarding Miss Monday, I would prefer to have been make fainted per pressure than being sliced by sword, but that's maybe just me. -
To be honest this is nothing new.
It occured way before, probably even earlier than when Usopp went out of his way to avoid hurting Perona instead of just shooting her body with an explosive star.
I imagine some differnces between Japan and other cultures factor into this as well, so crying "sexism" isn't gonna help.–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Obviously, he HAD to act with Monet, but even then, he still didn't kill her.
And now we go back to what I said over 10 pages back - no-one dies in OP, and Tashigi didn't "kill" her either.
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Dear lord no. What does a woman have to do in order for people to finally stop wishing she joined? Eat some of the kids while she clubs baby seals? If she wasn't another "prettyface" no-one would even bring this up. And then it will start all over again when Baby 5 gets there.
No, that's not true for me. Yes, she is a prettyface, but I don't want characters to join just because of that. If that were true, I would have been saying Hancock and others like Conis in the past should join, which I never did. Even being one of the minority who liked Perona, I knew it would have been dumb for her to join. Baby 5 may be another "prettyface", but what makes me want Monet is the mysteriousness to her personality. Even more so than Robin toward her entrance, Monet IS acting evil, and that's why I think her personality would be an interesting blend with the other Straw Hats. Showing character development on her part would be very interesting.
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No, that's not true for me. Yes, she is a prettyface, but I don't want characters to join just because of that. If that were true, I would have been saying Hancock and others like Conis in the past should join, which I never did. Even being one of the minority who liked Perona, I knew it would have been dumb for her to join. Baby 5 may be another "prettyface", but what makes me want Monet is the mysteriousness to her personality. Even more so than Robin toward her entrance, Monet IS acting evil, and that's why I think her personality would be an interesting blend with the other Straw Hats. Showing character development on her part would be very interesting.
I wasn't directing this at you in particular, just expressing my frustration with the trend overall. The reason I don't want to see her join is a)there are so many characters in the crew to juggle already that most of them usually disappear for a half a dozen chapter every arc, such as now, and b) I see no redeeming qualities to her that would make me want her to join. Her personality can be explored without making her part of the crew or even a positive character, no?
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I am just gonna keep it short and explain how i see it, you can address this of course, no matter if you agree or not:
Zoro is a total brute pre-TS. He never holds back and pushes forward with sheer force. Basically, his swordsmanship is all about power and strength, he does have the honor of a swordsman but not the grace. Then he trains with the guy who said this: http://www.mangareader.net/103-2109-15/one-piece/chapter-50.html and this http://www.mangareader.net/103-2111-4/one-piece/chapter-51.html . Then he comes back and the first thing Zoro does is the same thing Mihawk did when he was introduced, cutting a galleon and talking about fate. Then Zoro goes on and gives a guy, who literally tried to kill him, the chance to run away twice, something he never did pre-TS (the fight against the 100 bounty hunters is a good example, he considered them weak and an opportunity to test his sword but he still cut them all down). Only after he would not listen Zoro cuts that guy down. Then he fights a female Logia who actually understood the difference in strength between him and her but refused to run away because she believed that he can not cut women. To prove that this is not the case, he cuts her a little bit and literally scares her shitless, showing her that he could kill her anytime he wanted. The women, just like Hyouzou on FI, refuses to listen and attacks him from behind, again the same as Hyouzou. Unfortunately for us, Tashigi interferes and cuts her down.
Now feel free to discuss this if you want
This is pretty much exactly as I see it. I wasn't offended by Zoro's actions or Oda's writing. If that means I dwell in a cesspool of sexism and stupidity, so be it. At least I enjoyed the chapter. I believe many people misinterpreted the chapter and I and many others tried to help them enjoy the chapter too, but in the end, I care most about my own personally enjoyment. I can only hope that we don't get a repeat of this discussion any time soon, because I don't think it will go anywhere next time either.
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I wasn't directing this at you in particular, just expressing my frustration with the trend overall. The reason I don't want to see her join is a)there are so many characters in the crew to juggle already that most of them usually disappear for a half a dozen chapter every arc, such as now, and b) I see no redeeming qualities to her that would make me want her to join. Her personality can be explored without making her part of the crew or even a positive character, no?
Boobs are pretty effective at mind-controlling most males.
It's the "Hancock Syndrome". Hot characters are never irredeemable.
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thinking about it,my main gripe with the chapter is the dumbness of monet.oda went up and set her up start,even law states that.but she is very careless,never considering that he can indeed cut women she was attacking tashigi and ignored him,in a way which is ultra-moronic.i awaited her fight,but she ended up 1-upping kalifa in dumbness.if she was somewhat careful,she could have lasted half a chapter more.
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I wasn't directing this at you in particular, just expressing my frustration with the trend overall. The reason I don't want to see her join is a)there are so many characters in the crew to juggle already that most of them usually disappear for a half a dozen chapter every arc, such as now, and b) I see no redeeming qualities to her that would make me want her to join. Her personality can be explored without making her part of the crew or even a positive character, no?
That's fair enough, but my thoughts won't change on the matter unless it becomes evident several chapters from now that this is truly the end for Monet. We still don't know that much about Monet, so it's too early in my opinion to say she has no redeemable qualities. If I recall correctly, Robin started off "pretending" to kill Igaram and acting ruthless with Vivi and Tashigi amongst other characters before being redeemed. Franky started off beating the shit out of Usopp with his boys and stealing the Straw Hats' money for his own desires. At this point in time, did you really think Franky had any redeemable qualities until later in the arc when we started to learn more about him? And Monet clearly has some issue with Doflamingo that could be forcing her to act the way she is.
Just saying. It's cool if you disagree, but those are my thoughts on her at the moment.
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Wow, Oda just contradicted Zoro's whole character. He was the guy who said "sex doesn't matter", and suddenly, he doesn't want to harm women? It's not a weakness thing because Zoro has mauled down many weak characters. It's truly because she's a female…. which makes no sense to me because of his past. What the hell, did Oda forget or something...? 0.o
Sorry, went a few pages back to read, and picked up your quote, which you've been arguing a little over I see… I'm not sure if you realized, but because of external factors, being that Tashigi was present, was not able to deliver a final blow, but nevertheless did harm Monet, and more specifically not just physically, but mentally. One could argue that's more of a defeat that Hyouzou went through, and Monet is a woman. Anyways, Urouge basically went through most of the counter arguments already, I don't need to repeat them.
Also, I love how many people are trying to explain Oda's decision. if this was Fairy Tail, or Naruto or what have you, y'all would'a been tearing this decision to SHREDS.
Very shitty attempt at a logical fallacy. Very shitty.
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Sorry, went a few pages back to read, and picked up your quote, which you've been arguing a little over I see… I'm not sure if you realized, but because of external factors, being that Tashigi was present, was not able to deliver a final blow, but nevertheless did harm Monet, and more specifically not just physically, but mentally. One could argue that's more of a defeat that Hyouzou went through, and Monet is a woman. Anyways, Urouge basically went through most of the counter arguments already, I don't need to repeat them.
Very shitty attempt at a logical fallacy. Very shitty.
I was going to ask about how it was a No true Scotsman, but you changed it.
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Yeah, I tend to keep the two windows next to each other for easier reference. I do apologize if any of this winds up sounding harsh. I woke up not long ago.
No worries. Posts like this help me calm down during arguments like this. So I'll also apologize if I'm acting to agressive/passive agressive (doesn't help that I've lost my work when I was almost done…and I liked my first draft better).
! > Every fight has its own circumstances, and I could argue each one individually, but that's missing the point. The point is that he acted the exact same way with Hyouzou, and Hyouzou is not a woman. Therefore, we can not treat this as a situation that's purely exclusive to women.
Fights should never be perfect mirror images of each other. But these two situations are about as similar as I expect two different fights to ever be.
! You're treating Hyouzou's fight as if it is a perfect mirror image though. I've brought up the whole he "ended" the fight with Hyouzou arg as one clear difference between the two. Here's another.
! Sure, both fights started with Zoro defending an attack by an opponent that was aimed towards his crew, but the mindset of starting the fights were different.
! With Hyouzou, http://www.batoto.net/read/_/99581/one-piece_v65_ch639_by_mangarule/19. He didn't do that because "Robin couldn't handle Hyouzou", he did that because he wanted to fight a swordsman. All those reasons why you've been defending Zoro not finishing Monet off right away might be acceptable, but there's only applicable to Hyouzou's fight.
! Here's the context of Monet vs Zoro. http://www.batoto.net/read/_/137256/one-piece_ch685_by_mangarule/18 Nobody else can handle her, I need to take care of this. He's protecting the crew.
! That's why comparing Monet's fight with Hody seems to be a better case. http://www.batoto.net/read/_/91817/one-piece_v63_ch617_by_mangarule/14 Here he also needed to hold Hody off because nobody in the room can handle the fight, but he didn't have a soft spot for Hody.
! > Unwilling? Certainly not. He proved he was willing. Not something he particularly wanted to do, sure, but unwilling, never.The first quote is from the previous quote. These are your words, back to back! Come on, don't do this! It's way too embarrassing, and even shameful!
! =p Okay I'll admit that this was a poor choice of words on my part, so I'll stick with your phrasing because he didn't want to.
! Zoro didn't seem to actively not end the fight because she's a woman (unless you want to argue a better claim that fits both Zoro's context of not liking some things to cut up and Sanji's line about Zoro having a soft spot for some people), and it's that very acknowledgement which is what I'm arguing against. Taking that into account, I'll ask again, why didn't Zoro just end the fight once he realized he was superior to Monet?
! At this point I'm wondering how much of this argument comes down to not so much fact as opinion especially since
! > Did it play a part? Sure, absolutely, and for her case in particular it could even be a significant part. Still not exclusive.
! You're not only admitting that this is in part the case for Zoro's actions, but seem okay with them.
! Me personally, I find the whole holding back because I don't like harming a girl (whether it's taken to a Sanji extreme or just somebody with this philosophy) fairly insulting on principle. This is not the same as saying you're actively looking to slice down girls, that's just silly.
! But the principle of holding back is entrenched with the notion that you view a woman as not an equal standing as a man, regardless of their training/past/experience etc.
! The other issue is an argument of practicality, and as for that see below.
! > Because she got in the way. It's not like Zoro would have stalled to all eternity had Tashigi not been there. That would just be plain silly.There's no way in hell that Zoro loses to Kalifa in that situation. Yeah, he would have tried to get her to back down at first, but I can't even imagine him actually losing when it doesn't work out. Just like he wouldn't have lost against Monet. Would Sanji have lost to Monet in this situation? I'd imagine so, and he even sort of acknowledges that in a way in this chapter.
! Nothing this chapter really made me think otherwise. Zoro seemed content with blocking Monet's attacks just like Sanji parried Kalifa's.
! So again, what did Monet need to do to get Zoro to use that intimidation technique? Be a threat? It was clear Sanji was superior to Kalifa, but he lost (and I realize getting rubbed down by a woman can be considered a vastly different scenario, but I guess you can take rub down to be attack X that could stall/take out Zoro while she's off killing the crew).
! > Why should he have to repeat the same lines every time? This is just a part of his character. It was the same when Luffy and Zoro were gleeful to learn that they were up against Crocodile. The thing that bugs me is that you treat hesitation like it's the only possible answer, and complain about it because of Zoro's line about the New World (right below this), when there's clearly another possible answer. It's like you WANT there to be a problem to complain about. It's not like he ever verified your accusation either, so that's just as much conjecture, which is based on little more than ignorant and biased Tashigi and her historically wrong assumptions about Zoro.
! What is the other answer? I've already brought it up earlier, but Zoro messing around in fights is not part of his character. He used that line once in the entire story in a different context, and you're considering that Zoro's always been like that. He likes challenging himself, but when it's not a challenge he doesn't just mess around with the opponent, he ends the fight. So when Zoro was called out multiple times on "why won't you harm Monet", if the answer was because he was training/found her a non-threat, it should've been explicit.
! And there's an implicit verification for my conjecture "there's some things I don't like to cut", which is the line I've been mentioning time and time again.
! > The difference between how we approach this here is that I'm actually willing to acknowledge that hesitation may have played a part (I'd actually say a combination seems most likely, but I'm willing to seriously consider alternatives), while you seem completely dead set in your beliefs. But if hesitation was the cause, it's likely due to an internal conflict that he's battling, which he eventually overcomes. Even in this case, accusing Zoro of not adhering to his own advice because he quickly struggles with a little internal conflict is downright unfair. You're not asking him to be a character, but rather you're asking him to be a robot.
! The reason why I'm pressing my point so much is because you seem content if my argument is partially right, and if that's the case fine. But I don't agree with the reasoning of hesitating other than the fact that's she's a woman, or that even if there was that it'd be a good thing (though I'll admit, I have no idea if I'd even emphasize Zoro's arrogance as a strong point if it wasn't brought up during other topics, but that's a good point to make regardless)
! And Zoro would be hard on himself if the fight didn't go in his favor. And calling a guy out when he's being a bit hypocritical instead of excusing his actions seems perfectly fair. And it's not like I'm going "I hate Zoro forever now GRRR" either.
! > How can you just assume that Zoro would lose to stuff like this if he was prepared and focused? It's incomprehensible. HE has faith that he can overcome any method she comes up with, that's for damn sure. He doesn't believe he's being careless because he's prepared for anything. If said anything actually works to some degree, well, that's a mistake to learn from. It'd be better if someone weak like Monet introduced something that he wasn't expecting than someone who was a real threat to him.The biggest issue he had, which the New World line originated from, is that he got caught unfocused and off guard by Rock/Scotch and nearly paid the price for it. To lose because of a lack of focus is inexcusable to him. He expects himself to always be prepared for any type of attack. But that doesn't mean that he needs to eliminate any and all threats as quickly as possible. Those two concepts simply aren't the same.
! For the first paragraph, that's the cocky/overconfidence mindset that allows weaker opponents to beat better opponents all the time.
! As for the second argument, just like there's no reason to go all out right away, there's also no reason to delay a fight if you're certain of your victory. -
Now that we seem to be passed the whole "Zoro is a sexist pig" thing,…
Is there a theory behind Zoro's ability to paralyze Monet? Was she just THAT scared? I feel like there's something else at work here. Even Tashigi couldn't believe he cut her without Haki. I wonder if it might be an offshoot of Emperor's Haki. Instead of passing out, she just freezes. She had a hell of a time getting back together too.
On another note, I think it's about time the Strawhats had a pet... dragon that is. :ninja:
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Now that we seem to be passed the whole "Zoro is a sexist pig" thing,…
Is there a theory behind Zoro's ability to paralyze Monet? Was she just THAT scared? I feel like there's something else at work here. Even Tashigi couldn't believe he cut her without Haki. I wonder if it might be an offshoot of Emperor's Haki. Instead of passing out, she just freezes. She had a hell of a time getting back together too.
We still don't have a proper explanation of Asura. I'm really wondering what Zoro's powers really are. Its kinda different from Haki. Even his ability to hear the "breath of all things" is different from Observation Haki where you only predict or detect living being's actions not inanimate objects like falling rubble. This may be a sign of a completely different type of power set or an advanced type of haki.
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Also, I love how many people are trying to explain Oda's decision. if this was Fairy Tail, or Naruto or what have you, y'all would'a been tearing this decision to SHREDS.
Uh yeah, we would. That's kind of self-evident. People were tearing it to shreds, did you not read?
Awfulness lends itself to awfulness, goodness lends itself to goodness. Let's say there's a hamster named Freddy who always runs on his wheel, and does maybe two or three flips in the process. You would trust his acrobatic nature to usually do two or three good flips. If Freddy, who has a good flip record, DOESN'T flip once… you chalk it up as an anomaly, and perhaps give him some energizing pellets.
Now say there's this lazy hamster, his name will be Poop Machine. All he does is poop. All the time. No flips, just constant poop. You WANT him to flip, like Freddy, because you want to enter him into the hamster Olympics, but he just won't do it. You trust him -not- to flip. When he does, you praise him, but you know he's probably not going to do it again for a long, long time.
So, in the Fairy Tail, Naruto, Bleach threads, we expect them to be bad and never go (flip) above their usual selves. At most we expect a lazy lop-sided handstand that ends with them plopping on their back. But when they do go above our expectations and do a cute little flip, we praise them for it. Just like it's an anomaly for the good olympic hamster NOT to flip, it's an anomaly for the bad olympic hamster TO flip. So we naturally rationalize the good hamster's behavior when he maybe only does one flip instead of two, because he's earned our trust.
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Now that we seem to be passed the whole "Zoro is a sexist pig" thing,…
Is there a theory behind Zoro's ability to paralyze Monet? Was she just THAT scared? I feel like there's something else at work here. Even Tashigi couldn't believe he cut her without Haki. I wonder if it might be an offshoot of Emperor's Haki. Instead of passing out, she just freezes. She had a hell of a time getting back together too.
On another note, I think it's about time the Strawhats had a pet... dragon that is. :ninja:
Zoro has been doing that to people ever since his introduction in the second chapter. No, there is still no explanation to it, though characters in-universe seem to be acutely aware of it.
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Uh yeah, we would. That's kind of self-evident. People were tearing it to shreds, did you not read?
Awfulness lends itself to awfulness, goodness lends itself to goodness. Let's say there's a hamster named Freddy who always runs on his wheel, and does maybe two or three flips in the process. You would trust his acrobatic nature to usually do two or three good flips. If Freddy, who has a good flip record, DOESN'T flip once… you chalk it up as an anomaly, and perhaps give him some energizing pellets.
Now say there's this lazy hamster, his name will be Poop Machine. All he does is poop. All the time. No flips, just constant poop. You WANT him to flip, like Freddy, because you want to enter him into the hamster Olympics, but he just won't do it. You trust him -not- to flip. When he does, you praise him, but you know he's probably not going to do it again for a long, long time.
So, in the Fairy Tail, Naruto, Bleach threads, we expect them to be bad and never go (flip) above their usual selves. At most we expect a lazy lop-sided handstand that ends with them plopping on their back. But when they do go above our expectations and do a cute little flip, we praise them for it. Just like it's an anomaly for the good olympic hamster NOT to flip, it's an anomaly for the bad olympic hamster TO flip. So we naturally rationalize the good hamster's behavior when he maybe only does one flip instead of two, because he's earned our trust.
You know that's kinda beautiful in a cute little hamster way.
:3
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I don't know, I think, that when Zoro said there are some things he rather not cut, he meant just that, with no hidden meaning. I think Oda meant to show, that Zoro is not kind of guy who destroys everything indiscriminately, which is very human way of thinking if you ask me, however the statement indicates also that he would cut those things, shall the need arise. The group of things he doesn't enjoy cutting haven't been characterized in any way. Both Tashigi and Monet assumed, that women belong to that class of things, but Zoro hasn't confirmed, neither has he denied that. I already dealt with Tashigi in one of my previous posts.
I would only judge Zoro's actions as sexist if they were result of the line of thinking: "women are not worthy to cut, as they are inferior in strength and skill due to the fact of being female", or in reverse case "women should enjoy certain privileges, like being spared from cutting, due to the virtue of being born female". If the reasoning is devoid from notions of superiority of one gender above the other it's not really sexist, so action based on that reasoning can't be sexist.
One of the reasons Zoro fights is simply because he enjoys it. There may exist few classes of opponents, that he don't really enjoy fighting. Women may or may not belong to one of those classes. The lack of personal gratification from cutting women may come from upbringing or may be explained via evolutionary psychology. However in either case it's not really important when it comes to major clashes, when opponent is on the same level as Zoro or when he really needs to cut somebody. However it remains questionable if all women belong to class of things that Zoro would rather not cut and it's almost sure that this class is not limited to women.Zoro not finishing off Monet when he cut her is classical scene seen in million times. "Hero" leaves defeated but alive, villain, who decide to attack "hero" from instead of accepting "mercy" - you can compare to Goku's fight with Frieza in Dragon Ball Z. Normally "hero" is easily able to defend himself, as Zoro would if Tashigi hadn't finished Monet first. Tell me what Tashigi could do seeing such a cowardly antics from common foe. Should she wait and see if her theory about Zoro was true?
In my opinion way Zoro treated Tashigi in this chapter was that of adult acting towards child or master towards stubborn pupil. No wonder Tashigi was aggravated by his behavior, especially since she read it as displaying sexism on Zoro's part (again, I've already explained Tashigi). Even if Tashigi understood in the end what Zoro's means, I doubt she would stop bickering with him, because when one starts a routine it's hard to stop. It's sort of their established way of their relationship to work.
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Well, waited for CCC's translations and thought it over for a bit.
! I think the main reason that the topic gets continually propagated is because the storytelling remains… less than concrete? For example why did we need Sanji's reassurance to the marine at all? We've tagged along some 600-odd chapters. We already know that Zoro's a good person. For what purpose do we need a reminder? This wasn't innocuous dialogue either. It exuded exposition.
! Additionally there's the concept of mercy. Zoro's already cut down plenty of nameless henchmen since the timeskip began, completely bereft of any sort pause for their reconsideration. And of course it's not like any of them suffer any sort of particularly cruel or violent attack. They receive the standard fare; get cut down, end of story. Hyozou was characterized as a swordsman, so that may explain his share of mercy but not Monet's. Heck, the only reason Mihawk drew his cross knife was to demonstrate the difference between swordsman. (He already used Yoru to deflect some bullets and slay an armada, so the use of the cross knife was about more than just weakness.)
! So why Monet? Is there some sort of arbitrary threshold for mercy? Is mercy for the above average rather than the weak? Monet had not only already hurt Robin, but was also prolonged long enough to realize that Zoro was on the defensive. Furthermore she was able to get a few more pot shots on Nami, Robin, and even the marine. At the very least he was able to keep Hyozou preoccupied, and he couldn't even do that properly with Monet. And for such an apparent gap in strength, it only serves to subdue his own message to Luffy about taking things seriously. It also seems to draw the fight further away from Mihawk parallels, because like the Hyozou incident, Mihawk was at least able to keep Zoro completely occupied.
! But mercy aside, it just doesn't make sense for Zoro to not stop her immediately. If he intended to instill fear, why not just do that from the getgo? Urouge mentioned it may hay been to avoid repeating situations, which is fine for storytelling's sake I suppose… but the alternative (artificially prolonging the fight) is so much worse. And for the matter of instilling fear, that in itself is a noteworthy difference. Why opt to go that route at all? Like Hyozou, Monet had already exhausted Zoro's goodwill, so why not cut her down like Hyozou?
! Some posit that Zoro slicing her in half was the mirror event of Hyozou's sword shattering. (Even though I disagree, as by this point Monet had already received her fair share of leniency. This is where my original point about kicks in too!) Given that, Zoro's decisive blow gets circumvented by Tashigi. Why did Oda do this? It only brought more, unnecessary attention to the subject. Same with Zoro's line about having things he doesn't want to cut. All he needed to do was substitute "things" with "weaklings" or whatever actual notion Oda has in mind and we probably wouldn't be having this discussion. That or not bringing attention to the sex card in the first place, by having Monet get cut down like any other villain in the series.
! Like Urouge mentioned, Oda's chosen to write this way for a reason. And like CCC has rationalized, context is important. But in the end the result was of something that was ambiguous enough to warrant discussion. (Urouge and CCC and Gizmo did great jobs especially, showing that the subject could be discussed civilly. A few others cringe at the mere mention of the subject. Others revel in its wake.) And sexism/weakness aside, I still at the very least believe that Zoro acted poorly in this chapter. Not terribly mind you, but definitely not well enough to deserve praise, or live up to his own advice for that matter.Really enjoyed reading your posts.
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Hated the chapter. Nami and Chopper almost die for no good reason. Monet has been more humiliated than Hordy underwater. Tashigi was as pathetic as always.( but I laugh at her trying to get the credit of beating Monet.)
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Zoro was literary angry when the thought of weakness entered the mind of Kuina that she was a woman. Zoro taught her not to use being a woman as an excuse for being weak.From this we can conclude that Zoro doesn’t differentiate between genders when it comes to strength.
Remember the thought of Zoro beating Kuina because she’s a woman (weak) pissed him off. “If I beat you one day it will not be because of my strength but because you’re a woman.” Those are not the exact words but it doesn’t change the meaning.
Zoro wouldn’t hold back regardless of gender. We saw this against the 100 Bounty hunters. He wouldn’t go overboard (except for maybe Miss Monday) but just enough to defeat his opponent.What really baffled most of the members of this forum was his famous “She’s a woman”. Most of them thought it was a horrible mistake on Oda’s part or a complete screw up. Obviously considering what Zoro said to Kuina in his flashback and how he beat Miss Monday, most of the members would label such a development as mistake and a contradictory one at that.
The recent development brings back what most of us thought was a mistake. Most of us thought that Tashigi was under the wrong assumption of Zoro, claiming that he can’t cut women back at Louge town and even now. Guess what… She turns out to be slightly correct. Zoro doesn’t like to fight women… Something that goes completely against what his character is established upon. His last words to Kuina were completely thrown out the window.
If you don’t see the contradiction in Zoro’s character in all of this than your probably some kind of One Piece fanatic.
If you call this character development than you must be extremely clear about it. In no way is this development a good thing for Zoro’s character. It’s like his foundation or his constitution has taken a U-Turn.@Urouge, the thing about taking it easy or stalling for weaker opponents so that they can leave instead of having Zoro to finish them. Zoro’s only done that against Hyouzou and now Monet. He has never done this before.
Zoro has always finished off his opponents without hesitation before. Most of them were over and done within one hit.
If its a new arrogant trait or development then lets see were it takes us, I don't like it so far.Like Gizmo was saying this situation in circumstances is closer to being similar with Hody than Hyouzou.
-
This current situation Monet is great danger to the weaker strawhats.
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The gas is following up towards Zoro’s location.
-
Monet is obviously the biggest obstacle standing in the way of everyone’s well being.
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Hody was a great danger to the weaker strawhats and Neptune/army.
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The water was flooding in.
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Hody is obviously the biggest obstacle standing in the way of everyone’s well being.
Zoro one shots Hody.
Zoro is in Defense position against Monet.The comparisons that you gave between Hyouzou have been replied to you by Gizmo and I don’t want to make this post any longer with my opinions. I pretty much agree with him.
When it all comes down to it we got to look at this from the “writers” perspective” like CCC said.
Unrequited also sums it up. -
-
OK here is my peace of mind rant about this chapter. I warn you I'm pissed and might be harsh. I'll talk about Tashigi first to get her out of the way then about Zoro.
First:
About Tashigi I personally never liked her personality because she is always complaining about sexism. Because her sense of justice and view of the world is so absolutest. She is like an Akinou waiting to happen if she wasn't a bit kind and guided by a man with a little sense of relativity and nuance, even though smoker can be a bit proud and stubborn himself. these two should have figured out that the SHs are relatively benign by now and concentrated on other threats in an age where pirates are swarming the marines all over the world. But nooo they still want to settle scores from Logue town.
I do respect her though, mind you I do not respect Usopp, Nami or Chopper because they are cowards. She is a petite woman small even by comparison to SH's women. So she has a physical handicap. She has a severe inferiority complex which no doubt weakens her haki. Yet she is fearless. As evident by her participation in the War at Marine Ford. And by Chasing Zoro a SH who even before being introduced into the series was known to induce fear among people. As he displayed in this chapter named beast. An apt name for the most terrifying of the SHs.
This girl manged sword skills sophisticated enough to allow her to balance a canon ball on the back of her sword then deflect it.
!
Something Mihawke did when first introduced when he deflected bullets. Saying something to the effect of a strong word must have subtlety as well.
!
So her sword techniques are elegant, she has haki and is Rokushiki user. What more do you want from her?
She and smoker do win occasionally but never when SHs are involved their character arc requires them to constantly lose to the SHs and be indebted to them in some way. Thus fueling this need to chase and improve which borders on obsession.
Her reasons for being hung up on sexism have already bean pointed out by people on this thread. And does mesh well with her pigheaded narrow minded view of the world. For those who always complain about her humiliation when ever she meets the SHs. It is be design. Smoker was a logia and still got saved by the SHs. They will not be redeemed in this Arc. Their Characters are way too important to have their driving motivation stripped this early in the manga.
Tashigi exists as vehicle to explore Zoro's past and how he comes to terms with it. Just Like Ace's death and the Mystery of Sabo Drive Luffy's development.
**Second Zoro:
People on this thread have been complaining about this being a shonen manga directed at kids. At the same time when this chapter shows some complexity and nuance they complain about it being too vague. Well, pick a side and stick to it please.**
This thread has been divided into two sides. one vehemently denies any effect of gender on Zoro's behavior the last couple of chapters. I like to call these the blind believers. And the other, My least favorite, are the sexism brigade. Who are overcome by paroxysms of yelling sexism! and Sanji! between bouts of "here in California we do things differently" So I say sit down before you hurt yourselves. This is not your liberal utopia where we all drive Priuses and recycle everything. This a story with Characters who have real flaws and CONFLICT. Speaking of Sanji he does point out Zoro's situation rather succinctly when he says "he has a soft side too. but will get the job done.". That is the chapter in a nutshell. I am amazed that Sanji of all people knows about this side of Zoro. But it's rather clever to use him to point out Zoro's conflict even though it's unclear how he came to know this. That is because he is being gracious about Zoro's 'issue' despite their rivalry. it's one of the rare moments of Sanji's and Zoro's camaraderie and mutual trust. the second one this arc.
Now Zoro is a very private person. His Character has been very mysterious. Non of the SHs should know of his back story or about Kuina. Whereas they all know about Luffy and Ace probably not Sabo. But they know about Shanks. All other SHs back stories are fairly known to each other but not Zoro. Which lead a lot of people to think of him as simply Bad-ass or one-dimensional caricature. But not after these couple of Chapters.Tashigi is the only one Zoro ever spoke to about his past.
!
It is obvious that she alone can be the catalyst to show us this side of him that he carefully guards. A man who spends his time sleeping drinking or training it's easy to think of him as calm and centered. But now we get a glimpse of what is seething under the facade of that calm. The last time Zoro's facade cracked was when Mihawke defeated him. I always thought it was stupid for him to cry after defeat. Having re-read the beginning of the series recently. I realized that Zoro used to fight with two swords. Only after Kuina's death did he invent three-sword style specifically to carry her sword with him. To literally carry her dream with him. Always. He cries out of guilt at letting Kuina down.
More importantly the Manga, far more clearly than the anime, shows that her death was suspicious. maybe she did die from a fall. Most likely she killed herself. More importantly, Zoro probably thinks so too. He probably has survivor's guilt. He probably blames himself for pushing her too hard. Maybe if he let her be the biggest fish in her little pond. Maybe that would be enough. True or imagined these feelings of guilt and anger that are deeply repressed shape Zoro's personality. We only get a flash-back of this past when Zoro thinks he is going to die by firing squad. That is how deep this man represses these feelings. This is further enforced by the fact that Kuina's sword is the only one that Zoro deems irreplaceable. This is at the same time he meets Tashigi. Notice he never calls Tashigi by her name always fraud or captain four eyes. Nor does he ever utter Kuina's name in her presence. People always cover up emotion with attitude or humor. Zoro always goes extra bad-ass in front of Tashigi. All that bullshit about beasts and what not. Look for him calling her by name as sign of him coming to term with his past.
A man who blames himself for the death of his best friend and idol. Zoro wants to honor her by treating women fighters equally. But feels guilty about hurting them as it reminds him of 'allegedly' hurting Kuina. He usually is able to cover this uncomfortable side of himself. But it rears it's head whenever Tashigi is around. He had just met her. And now he is fighting a woman. Sure he wants everyone to leave so he can fight freely. Sure he wants to see what this logia's got. But more than anything he is dreading hurting her. Having just had Tashigi rattle him by her mere presence. People question whether Zoro would defeat Monet if Tashigi wasn't there. And the answer is yes. If anything Tashigi makes it harder not easier to hurt Monet. Zoro actually asks her to leave repeatedly. However when tashigi's life is in danger Zoro not only defends her. He cuts Monet's face. Imagine how hard that is for him to cut a women's face her essence. Although Zoro will hardly admit it he is loath to see Tashigi get hurt. What boggles my mind is how does Sanji know this?
I think by now Zoro has nurtured that image of Kuina in his mind to a point of obsession or something akin to love. He also feels guilty for these emotions which he perceives as viewing her not as a great swords woman. This is another reason why Tashigi bothers him. He doesn't know how or what to feel about her. Tashigi of course is perfect foil for these complex emotions with her pit-bull personality and views on gender. And her inability to see what is in front of her. Something Sanji! ,for God's sake, Sanji!, was able to see. So no wonder Zoro's carefully hidden flaw shows when she is around. Notice Zoro is not proud of this. He never states outright what it is he rather not cut. He didn't even answer Monet last chapter. He really wants to be faithful to the memory and promise to Kuina but it is that same memory that is giving him pause. A beautiful complex character from perhaps the least likely candidate for complexity among the SHs and yet all you did is complain about it instead of enjoying it.
Maybe this is a kids' manga but when it got complicated clearly it went over your heads.
-
! OK here is my peace of mind rant about this chapter. I warn you I'm pissed and might be harsh. I'll talk about Tashigi first to get her out of the way then about Zoro.
! First:
! About Tashigi I personally never liked her personality because she is always complaining about sexism. Because her sense of justice and view of the world is so absolutest. She is like an Akinou waiting to happen if she wasn't a bit kind and guided by a man with a little sense of relativity and nuance, even though smoker can be a bit proud and stubborn himself. these two should have figured out that the SHs are relatively benign by now and concentrated on other threats in an age where pirates are swarming the marines all over the world. But nooo they still want to settle scores from Logue town.
! I do respect her though, mind you I do not respect Usopp, Nami or Chopper because they are cowards. She is a petite woman small even by comparison to SH's women. So she has a physical handicap. She has a severe inferiority complex which no doubt weakens her haki. Yet she is fearless. As evident by her participation in the War at Marine Ford. And by Chasing Zoro a SH who even before being introduced into the series was known to induce fear among people. As he displayed in this chapter named beast. An apt name for the most terrifying of the SHs.
! This girl manged sword skills sophisticated enough to allow her to balance a canon ball on the back of her sword then deflect it.
! >! http://img.batoto.net/comics/2012/08/06/o/read501f949e77589/img000016.png
! Something Mihawke did when first introduced when he deflected bullets. Saying something to the effect of a strong word must have subtlety as well.
! >! http://img.batoto.net/comics/2011/11/06/o/read4eb6d620bb9da/One_Piece_v06_119.png
! So her sword techniques are elegant, she has haki and is Rokushiki user. What more do you want from her?
! She and smoker do win occasionally but never when SHs are involved their character arc requires them to constantly lose to the SHs and be indebted to them in some way. Thus fueling this need to chase and improve which borders on obsession.
! Her reasons for being hung up on sexism have already bean pointed out by people on this thread. And does mesh well with her pigheaded narrow minded view of the world. For those who always complain about her humiliation when ever she meets the SHs. It is be design. Smoker was a logia and still got saved by the SHs. They will not be redeemed in this Arc. Their Characters are way too important to have their driving motivation stripped this early in the manga.
! Tashigi exists as vehicle to explore Zoro's past and how he comes to terms with it. Just Like Ace's death and the Mystery of Sabo Drive Luffy's development.
! Second Zoro:
! People on this thread have been complaining about this being a shonen manga directed at kids. At the same time when this chapter shows some complexity and nuance they complain about it being too vague. Well, pick a side and stick to it please.
This thread has been divided into two sides. one vehemently denies any effect of gender on Zoro's behavior the last couple of chapters. I like to call these the blind believers. And the other, My least favorite, are the sexism brigade. Who are overcome by paroxysms of yelling sexism! and Sanji! between bouts of "here in California we do things differently" So I say sit down before you hurt yourselves. This is not your liberal utopia where we all drive Priuses and recycle everything. This a story with Characters who have real flaws and CONFLICT. Speaking of Sanji he does point out Zoro's situation rather succinctly when he says "he has a soft side too. but will get the job done.". That is the chapter in a nutshell. I am amazed that Sanji of all people knows about this side of Zoro. But it's rather clever to use him to point out Zoro's conflict even though it's unclear how he came to know this. That is because he is being gracious about Zoro's 'issue' despite their rivalry. it's one of the rare moments of Sanji's and Zoro's camaraderie and mutual trust. the second one this arc.
Now Zoro is a very private person. His Character has been very mysterious. Non of the SHs should know of his back story or about Kuina. Whereas they all know about Luffy and Ace probably not Sabo. But they know about Shanks. All other SHs back stories are fairly known to each other but not Zoro. Which lead a lot of people to think of him as simply Bad-ass or one-dimensional caricature. But not after these couple of Chapters.
! Tashigi is the only one Zoro ever spoke to about his past.
! >! http://img.batoto.net/comics/2011/11/09/o/read4eba7c213141f/One_Piece_v12_020.png
! It is obvious that she alone can be the catalyst to show us this side of him that he carefully guards. A man who spends his time sleeping drinking or training it's easy to think of him as calm and centered. But now we get a glimpse of what is seething under the facade of that calm. The last time Zoro's facade cracked was when Mihawke defeated him. I always thought it was stupid for him to cry after defeat. Having re-read the beginning of the series recently. I realized that Zoro used to fight with two swords. Only after Kuina's death did he invent three-sword style specifically to carry her sword with him. To literally carry her dream with him. Always. He cries out of guilt at letting Kuina down.
! More importantly the Manga, far more clearly than the anime, shows that her death was suspicious. maybe she did die from a fall. Most likely she killed herself. More importantly, Zoro probably thinks so too. He probably has survivor's guilt. He probably blames himself for pushing her too hard. Maybe if he let her be the biggest fish in her little pond. Maybe that would be enough. True or imagined these feelings of guilt and anger that are deeply repressed shape Zoro's personality. We only get a flash-back of this past when Zoro thinks he is going to die by firing squad. That is how deep this man represses these feelings. This is further enforced by the fact that Kuina's sword is the only one that Zoro deems irreplaceable. This is at the same time he meets Tashigi. Notice he never calls Tashigi by her name always fraud or captain four eyes. Nor does he ever utter Kuina's name in her presence. People always cover up emotion with attitude or humor. Zoro always goes extra bad-ass in front of Tashigi. All that bullshit about beasts and what not. Look for him calling her by name as sign of him coming to term with his past.
! A man who blames himself for the death of his best friend and idol. Zoro wants to honor her by treating women fighters equally. But feels guilty about hurting them as it reminds him of 'allegedly' hurting Kuina. He usually is able to cover this uncomfortable side of himself. But it rears it's head whenever Tashigi is around. He had just met her. And now he is fighting a woman. Sure he wants everyone to leave so he can fight freely. Sure he wants to see what this logia's got. But more than anything he is dreading hurting her. Having just had Tashigi rattle him by her mere presence. People question whether Zoro would defeat Monet if Tashigi wasn't there. And the answer is yes. If anything Tashigi makes it harder not easier to hurt Monet. Zoro actually asks her to leave repeatedly. However when tashigi's life is in danger Zoro not only defends her. He cuts Monet's face. Imagine how hard that is for him to cut a women's face her essence. Although Zoro will hardly admit it he is loath to see Tashigi get hurt. What boggles my mind is how does Sanji know this?
! I think by now Zoro has nurtured that image of Kuina in his mind to a point of obsession or something akin to love. He also feels guilty for these emotions which he perceives as viewing her not as a great swords woman. This is another reason why Tashigi bothers him. He doesn't know how or what to feel about her. Tashigi of course is perfect foil for these complex emotions with her pit-bull personality and views on gender. And her inability to see what is in front of her. Something Sanji! ,for God's sake, Sanji!, was able to see. So no wonder Zoro's carefully hidden flaw shows when she is around. Notice Zoro is not proud of this. He never states outright what it is he rather not cut. He didn't even answer Monet last chapter. He really wants to be faithful to the memory and promise to Kuina but it is that same memory that is giving him pause. A beautiful complex character from perhaps the least likely candidate for complexity among the SHs and yet all you did is complain about it instead of enjoying it.
! Maybe this is a kids' manga but when it got complicated clearly it went over your heads.Really smart and interesting post. I never saw Zoro's character this way. Makes me want to reread and see what else I may have missed. Thanks.
-
! OK here is my peace of mind rant about this chapter. I warn you I'm pissed and might be harsh. I'll talk about Tashigi first to get her out of the way then about Zoro.
! First:
! About Tashigi I personally never liked her personality because she is always complaining about sexism. Because her sense of justice and view of the world is so absolutest. She is like an Akinou waiting to happen if she wasn't a bit kind and guided by a man with a little sense of relativity and nuance, even though smoker can be a bit proud and stubborn himself. these two should have figured out that the SHs are relatively benign by now and concentrated on other threats in an age where pirates are swarming the marines all over the world. But nooo they still want to settle scores from Logue town.
! I do respect her though, mind you I do not respect Usopp, Nami or Chopper because they are cowards. She is a petite woman small even by comparison to SH's women. So she has a physical handicap. She has a severe inferiority complex which no doubt weakens her haki. Yet she is fearless. As evident by her participation in the War at Marine Ford. And by Chasing Zoro a SH who even before being introduced into the series was known to induce fear among people. As he displayed in this chapter named beast. An apt name for the most terrifying of the SHs.
! This girl manged sword skills sophisticated enough to allow her to balance a canon ball on the back of her sword then deflect it.
! >!
! Something Mihawke did when first introduced when he deflected bullets. Saying something to the effect of a strong word must have subtlety as well.
! >!
! So her sword techniques are elegant, she has haki and is Rokushiki user. What more do you want from her?
! She and smoker do win occasionally but never when SHs are involved their character arc requires them to constantly lose to the SHs and be indebted to them in some way. Thus fueling this need to chase and improve which borders on obsession.
! Her reasons for being hung up on sexism have already bean pointed out by people on this thread. And does mesh well with her pigheaded narrow minded view of the world. For those who always complain about her humiliation when ever she meets the SHs. It is be design. Smoker was a logia and still got saved by the SHs. They will not be redeemed in this Arc. Their Characters are way too important to have their driving motivation stripped this early in the manga.
! Tashigi exists as vehicle to explore Zoro's past and how he comes to terms with it. Just Like Ace's death and the Mystery of Sabo Drive Luffy's development.
! Second Zoro:
! People on this thread have been complaining about this being a shonen manga directed at kids. At the same time when this chapter shows some complexity and nuance they complain about it being too vague. Well, pick a side and stick to it please.
This thread has been divided into two sides. one vehemently denies any effect of gender on Zoro's behavior the last couple of chapters. I like to call these the blind believers. And the other, My least favorite, are the sexism brigade. Who are overcome by paroxysms of yelling sexism! and Sanji! between bouts of "here in California we do things differently" So I say sit down before you hurt yourselves. This is not your liberal utopia where we all drive Priuses and recycle everything. This a story with Characters who have real flaws and CONFLICT. Speaking of Sanji he does point out Zoro's situation rather succinctly when he says "he has a soft side too. but will get the job done.". That is the chapter in a nutshell. I am amazed that Sanji of all people knows about this side of Zoro. But it's rather clever to use him to point out Zoro's conflict even though it's unclear how he came to know this. That is because he is being gracious about Zoro's 'issue' despite their rivalry. it's one of the rare moments of Sanji's and Zoro's camaraderie and mutual trust. the second one this arc.
Now Zoro is a very private person. His Character has been very mysterious. Non of the SHs should know of his back story or about Kuina. Whereas they all know about Luffy and Ace probably not Sabo. But they know about Shanks. All other SHs back stories are fairly known to each other but not Zoro. Which lead a lot of people to think of him as simply Bad-ass or one-dimensional caricature. But not after these couple of Chapters.
! Tashigi is the only one Zoro ever spoke to about his past.
! >!
! It is obvious that she alone can be the catalyst to show us this side of him that he carefully guards. A man who spends his time sleeping drinking or training it's easy to think of him as calm and centered. But now we get a glimpse of what is seething under the facade of that calm. The last time Zoro's facade cracked was when Mihawke defeated him. I always thought it was stupid for him to cry after defeat. Having re-read the beginning of the series recently. I realized that Zoro used to fight with two swords. Only after Kuina's death did he invent three-sword style specifically to carry her sword with him. To literally carry her dream with him. Always. He cries out of guilt at letting Kuina down.
! More importantly the Manga, far more clearly than the anime, shows that her death was suspicious. maybe she did die from a fall. Most likely she killed herself. More importantly, Zoro probably thinks so too. He probably has survivor's guilt. He probably blames himself for pushing her too hard. Maybe if he let her be the biggest fish in her little pond. Maybe that would be enough. True or imagined these feelings of guilt and anger that are deeply repressed shape Zoro's personality. We only get a flash-back of this past when Zoro thinks he is going to die by firing squad. That is how deep this man represses these feelings. This is further enforced by the fact that Kuina's sword is the only one that Zoro deems irreplaceable. This is at the same time he meets Tashigi. Notice he never calls Tashigi by her name always fraud or captain four eyes. Nor does he ever utter Kuina's name in her presence. People always cover up emotion with attitude or humor. Zoro always goes extra bad-ass in front of Tashigi. All that bullshit about beasts and what not. Look for him calling her by name as sign of him coming to term with his past.
! A man who blames himself for the death of his best friend and idol. Zoro wants to honor her by treating women fighters equally. But feels guilty about hurting them as it reminds him of 'allegedly' hurting Kuina. He usually is able to cover this uncomfortable side of himself. But it rears it's head whenever Tashigi is around. He had just met her. And now he is fighting a woman. Sure he wants everyone to leave so he can fight freely. Sure he wants to see what this logia's got. But more than anything he is dreading hurting her. Having just had Tashigi rattle him by her mere presence. People question whether Zoro would defeat Monet if Tashigi wasn't there. And the answer is yes. If anything Tashigi makes it harder not easier to hurt Monet. Zoro actually asks her to leave repeatedly. However when tashigi's life is in danger Zoro not only defends her. He cuts Monet's face. Imagine how hard that is for him to cut a women's face her essence. Although Zoro will hardly admit it he is loath to see Tashigi get hurt. What boggles my mind is how does Sanji know this?
! I think by now Zoro has nurtured that image of Kuina in his mind to a point of obsession or something akin to love. He also feels guilty for these emotions which he perceives as viewing her not as a great swords woman. This is another reason why Tashigi bothers him. He doesn't know how or what to feel about her. Tashigi of course is perfect foil for these complex emotions with her pit-bull personality and views on gender. And her inability to see what is in front of her. Something Sanji! ,for God's sake, Sanji!, was able to see. So no wonder Zoro's carefully hidden flaw shows when she is around. Notice Zoro is not proud of this. He never states outright what it is he rather not cut. He didn't even answer Monet last chapter. He really wants to be faithful to the memory and promise to Kuina but it is that same memory that is giving him pause. A beautiful complex character from perhaps the least likely candidate for complexity among the SHs and yet all you did is complain about it instead of enjoying it.
! Maybe this is a kids' manga but when it got complicated clearly it went over your heads.Pretty damn good post. Well-thought out and cohesive…..and like the user before me, I never considered Zoro's character in the way that you discussed.
And I'm guessing Sanji knows because amongst their rivalry and bickering, they know each other well (or at least to Sanji's credit, he is very perceptive) and respect each other. Just look back to Thriller Back where they tried to stop the other from sacrificing themselves to Kuma.
-
OK here is my peace of mind rant about this chapter. I warn you I'm pissed and might be harsh. I'll talk about Tashigi first to get her out of the way then about Zoro.
First:
About Tashigi I personally never liked her personality because she is always complaining about sexism. Because her sense of justice and view of the world is so absolutest. She is like an Akinou waiting to happen if she wasn't a bit kind and guided by a man with a little sense of relativity and nuance, even though smoker can be a bit proud and stubborn himself. these two should have figured out that the SHs are relatively benign by now and concentrated on other threats in an age where pirates are swarming the marines all over the world. But nooo they still want to settle scores from Logue town.
I do respect her though, mind you I do not respect Usopp, Nami or Chopper because they are cowards. She is a petite woman small even by comparison to SH's women. So she has a physical handicap. She has a severe inferiority complex which no doubt weakens her haki. Yet she is fearless. As evident by her participation in the War at Marine Ford. And by Chasing Zoro a SH who even before being introduced into the series was known to induce fear among people. As he displayed in this chapter named beast. An apt name for the most terrifying of the SHs.
.
I don't see in what case as Tashigi as seems not able to rationalize things. And more importantly I don't see what makes you think Smokey isn't absolutest and have help Tashigi, when all he always says is: "Pirates will always be pirates." I really see it the opposite order.
Anyways I really doubt Zoro feel guilt from Kuina death. But I agree that he decide to shoulder both dreams and that her sword is like having her with him.
-
good interesting post
I'm going to have to add that this is indeed a really good post. You kept my attention the whole time, even with that amount of text.
A problem with manga is people seem to want the main characters to be perfect (or even all characters?) because there's inevitably going to be fan clubs and all that created around them. Yet when you use flawed characters in books, they get automatic praise for being multi-dimensional. It's a thin line to tread on for manga writers.
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Zoro is starting to annoy me. So woman,which can probably defeat all the middle trio at once is ''pathetic weakling,not worthy of his time''
So most of his crewmates are also pathetic weaklings for him. What an assholeMonet wasn´t particularly strong just becoz she is logia the middle tier is not able to deal with her…but if you have haki then she is almost a nobody for someone like zoro...
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I don't see in what case as Tashigi as seems not able to rationalize things. And more importantly I don't see what makes you think Smokey isn't absolutest and have help Tashigi, when all he always says is: "Pirates will always be pirates." I really see it the opposite order.
Anyways I really doubt Zoro feel guilt from Kuina death. But I agree that he decide to shoulder both dreams and that her sword is like having her with him.
I don't know what you mean about Tashigi not being able to rationalize things? As for smoker He did ask Tashigi not to act as a marine and to follow her own justice in Arabasta. He loathes the dirty politics and cover ups of the Marine brass. He noticed the unnecessary savageness of the Marine Ford war. He suffered loss of rank by refusing orders. He clearly thinks for himself. As to pirates being pirates he was talking about the Shichibukai. And he was right. Even about Luffy he saw him smile at the platform in Logue town just as he was to be executed. This reminded him of the Pirate King. And since then many events proved to him Luffy will be big. I just can't understand why he won't consider the possibility that he is on the wrong side considering the evidence. He will eventually though.
-
It was ok, I guess. That spread of Zoro cutting Monet in half was cool, But didn't like Tashigi being so pathetic again, always needing help or being pitted by Zoro. You'd think after the timeskip they'd show her to be competent, but I'm still viewing her as "Lol, Tashigi".
Ok, this has already been discussed. Tashigi did better than most of the SH crew could have. She did the best she could do and Zoro was shown to be very strong in this chapter and that should be taken as tashigi is so weak and pathetic…
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It is my firm belief that Zoro just needs to get laid. Unlike Sanji, he's at that point where his sexual frustration is so buried he 's become asexual. He should sharpen his fourth sword and have at it with her.
Consider this pot stirred.
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We still don't have a proper explanation of Asura. I'm really wondering what Zoro's powers really are. Its kinda different from Haki. Even his ability to hear the "breath of all things" is different from Observation Haki where you only predict or detect living being's actions not inanimate objects like falling rubble. This may be a sign of a completely different type of power set or an advanced type of haki.
if the breath of all things is local to zoro then how come so many ppl can cut steel? maybe they use normal armament haki?
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if the breath of all things is local to zoro then how come so many ppl can cut steel? maybe they use normal armament haki?
I think the "freezing" of Monet was a form of Emperor's Haki as well.
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A problem with manga is people seem to want the main characters to be perfect (or even all characters?) because there's inevitably going to be fan clubs and all that created around them. Yet when you use flawed characters in books, they get automatic praise for being multi-dimensional. It's a thin line to tread on for manga writers.
That's… Not a problem with manga. That's a problem with people. (Well, that ones)
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That's… Not a problem with manga. That's a problem with people. (Well, that ones)
You can imagine I said people on the 4th word if you want. It doesn't change the meaning. Makes it harder to use the book comparison, though, because then I'm comparing people and manga.
I guess I'll call it a "hurdle for manga" instead of a problem.
I want to clarify my post anyway, so I'm glad you brought it back up. As far as I've seen, it's not as much as a problem with seinen manga to have more human (flawed) characters.
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I don't know about anyone else, but I interpreted Zoro's line, "There are some things I'd rather not cut" not as a hint of sexism but more of actual objects in general. Like in Lupin the 3rd, there's an epispode featuring Goemon where he reveals that his sword (which can cut pretty much anything, mind you) can't actually cut through konjac because the blade keeps getting stuck in it.
This has me thinking that there are certain things Zoro can't cut because he literally can't it and thus he prefers not to try.
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Hated the chapter. Nami and Chopper almost die for no good reason. Monet has been more humiliated than Hordy underwater. Tashigi was as pathetic as always.( but I laugh at her trying to get the credit of beating Monet.)
Could you point to the moment when Tashigi tried to take credit for beating Monet. I haven't seen such occurrence.
! OK here is my peace of mind rant about this chapter. I warn you I'm pissed and might be harsh. I'll talk about Tashigi first to get her out of the way then about Zoro.
! First:
! About Tashigi I personally never liked her personality because she is always complaining about sexism. Because her sense of justice and view of the world is so absolutest. She is like an Akinou waiting to happen if she wasn't a bit kind and guided by a man with a little sense of relativity and nuance, even though smoker can be a bit proud and stubborn himself. these two should have figured out that the SHs are relatively benign by now and concentrated on other threats in an age where pirates are swarming the marines all over the world. But nooo they still want to settle scores from Logue town.
! I do respect her though, mind you I do not respect Usopp, Nami or Chopper because they are cowards. She is a petite woman small even by comparison to SH's women. So she has a physical handicap. She has a severe inferiority complex which no doubt weakens her haki. Yet she is fearless. As evident by her participation in the War at Marine Ford. And by Chasing Zoro a SH who even before being introduced into the series was known to induce fear among people. As he displayed in this chapter named beast. An apt name for the most terrifying of the SHs.
! This girl manged sword skills sophisticated enough to allow her to balance a canon ball on the back of her sword then deflect it.
! >! http://img.batoto.net/comics/2012/08/06/o/read501f949e77589/img000016.png
! Something Mihawke did when first introduced when he deflected bullets. Saying something to the effect of a strong word must have subtlety as well.
! >! http://img.batoto.net/comics/2011/11/06/o/read4eb6d620bb9da/One_Piece_v06_119.png
! So her sword techniques are elegant, she has haki and is Rokushiki user. What more do you want from her?
! She and smoker do win occasionally but never when SHs are involved their character arc requires them to constantly lose to the SHs and be indebted to them in some way. Thus fueling this need to chase and improve which borders on obsession.
! Her reasons for being hung up on sexism have already bean pointed out by people on this thread. And does mesh well with her pigheaded narrow minded view of the world. For those who always complain about her humiliation when ever she meets the SHs. It is be design. Smoker was a logia and still got saved by the SHs. They will not be redeemed in this Arc. Their Characters are way too important to have their driving motivation stripped this early in the manga.
! Tashigi exists as vehicle to explore Zoro's past and how he comes to terms with it. Just Like Ace's death and the Mystery of Sabo Drive Luffy's development.
! Second Zoro:
! People on this thread have been complaining about this being a shonen manga directed at kids. At the same time when this chapter shows some complexity and nuance they complain about it being too vague. Well, pick a side and stick to it please.
This thread has been divided into two sides. one vehemently denies any effect of gender on Zoro's behavior the last couple of chapters. I like to call these the blind believers. And the other, My least favorite, are the sexism brigade. Who are overcome by paroxysms of yelling sexism! and Sanji! between bouts of "here in California we do things differently" So I say sit down before you hurt yourselves. This is not your liberal utopia where we all drive Priuses and recycle everything. This a story with Characters who have real flaws and CONFLICT. Speaking of Sanji he does point out Zoro's situation rather succinctly when he says "he has a soft side too. but will get the job done.". That is the chapter in a nutshell. I am amazed that Sanji of all people knows about this side of Zoro. But it's rather clever to use him to point out Zoro's conflict even though it's unclear how he came to know this. That is because he is being gracious about Zoro's 'issue' despite their rivalry. it's one of the rare moments of Sanji's and Zoro's camaraderie and mutual trust. the second one this arc.
Now Zoro is a very private person. His Character has been very mysterious. Non of the SHs should know of his back story or about Kuina. Whereas they all know about Luffy and Ace probably not Sabo. But they know about Shanks. All other SHs back stories are fairly known to each other but not Zoro. Which lead a lot of people to think of him as simply Bad-ass or one-dimensional caricature. But not after these couple of Chapters.
! Tashigi is the only one Zoro ever spoke to about his past.
! >! http://img.batoto.net/comics/2011/11/09/o/read4eba7c213141f/One_Piece_v12_020.png
! It is obvious that she alone can be the catalyst to show us this side of him that he carefully guards. A man who spends his time sleeping drinking or training it's easy to think of him as calm and centered. But now we get a glimpse of what is seething under the facade of that calm. The last time Zoro's facade cracked was when Mihawke defeated him. I always thought it was stupid for him to cry after defeat. Having re-read the beginning of the series recently. I realized that Zoro used to fight with two swords. Only after Kuina's death did he invent three-sword style specifically to carry her sword with him. To literally carry her dream with him. Always. He cries out of guilt at letting Kuina down.
! More importantly the Manga, far more clearly than the anime, shows that her death was suspicious. maybe she did die from a fall. Most likely she killed herself. More importantly, Zoro probably thinks so too. He probably has survivor's guilt. He probably blames himself for pushing her too hard. Maybe if he let her be the biggest fish in her little pond. Maybe that would be enough. True or imagined these feelings of guilt and anger that are deeply repressed shape Zoro's personality. We only get a flash-back of this past when Zoro thinks he is going to die by firing squad. That is how deep this man represses these feelings. This is further enforced by the fact that Kuina's sword is the only one that Zoro deems irreplaceable. This is at the same time he meets Tashigi. Notice he never calls Tashigi by her name always fraud or captain four eyes. Nor does he ever utter Kuina's name in her presence. People always cover up emotion with attitude or humor. Zoro always goes extra bad-ass in front of Tashigi. All that bullshit about beasts and what not. Look for him calling her by name as sign of him coming to term with his past.
! A man who blames himself for the death of his best friend and idol. Zoro wants to honor her by treating women fighters equally. But feels guilty about hurting them as it reminds him of 'allegedly' hurting Kuina. He usually is able to cover this uncomfortable side of himself. But it rears it's head whenever Tashigi is around. He had just met her. And now he is fighting a woman. Sure he wants everyone to leave so he can fight freely. Sure he wants to see what this logia's got. But more than anything he is dreading hurting her. Having just had Tashigi rattle him by her mere presence. People question whether Zoro would defeat Monet if Tashigi wasn't there. And the answer is yes. If anything Tashigi makes it harder not easier to hurt Monet. Zoro actually asks her to leave repeatedly. However when tashigi's life is in danger Zoro not only defends her. He cuts Monet's face. Imagine how hard that is for him to cut a women's face her essence. Although Zoro will hardly admit it he is loath to see Tashigi get hurt. What boggles my mind is how does Sanji know this?
! I think by now Zoro has nurtured that image of Kuina in his mind to a point of obsession or something akin to love. He also feels guilty for these emotions which he perceives as viewing her not as a great swords woman. This is another reason why Tashigi bothers him. He doesn't know how or what to feel about her. Tashigi of course is perfect foil for these complex emotions with her pit-bull personality and views on gender. And her inability to see what is in front of her. Something Sanji! ,for God's sake, Sanji!, was able to see. So no wonder Zoro's carefully hidden flaw shows when she is around. Notice Zoro is not proud of this. He never states outright what it is he rather not cut. He didn't even answer Monet last chapter. He really wants to be faithful to the memory and promise to Kuina but it is that same memory that is giving him pause. A beautiful complex character from perhaps the least likely candidate for complexity among the SHs and yet all you did is complain about it instead of enjoying it.
! Maybe this is a kids' manga but when it got complicated clearly it went over your heads.Interesting comments about Zoro. However the fact that Sanji can see a lot about Zoro is hardly surprising for me, although I was a bit surprised that that he acknowledges it so openly. Zoro got Sanjis attention when they were still in Baratie. One of the reasons for them disliking each other is, that Sanji sees Zoro as his best at least in terms of will and somehow aspires to strengthen like that. Of course he would never acknowledge it and it annoys him to no end. Besides they are same age and about the same level of maturity if I'm allowed to say it that way. Moreover one probably can easier relate to the other than any body else from among the crew. They would be best of friend if they didn't share strong dislike to one another.
I can't agree with what you stated about Tashigi, though. The girl has strong convictions, however she is nowhere near Akainu in level of moral absolutism, or rather authoritarianism. She is One of very few Marines, who, during the fight in Marineford realized there is something going horribly wrong with how Marine Corps act. She is one of those who didn't see sense in pursuing and murdering pirates over lives that can be saved. She is not just redeemed by kindness she posses, she has the ability to reflect about life and moral choices. She is no perfect, she doesn't have the ability to see every thing as it is, but frankly nobody have. If she makes mistakes in judgment (and she sure makes them) it isn't because she is especially narrow minded, but because she is not wiser than what her experience and emotions allow her to be.
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You can imagine I said people on the 4th word if you want. It doesn't change the meaning. Makes it harder to use the book comparison, though, because then I'm comparing people and manga.
I guess I'll call it a "hurdle for manga" instead of a problem.
I want to clarify my post anyway, so I'm glad you brought it back up. As far as I've seen, it's not as much as a problem with seinen manga to have more human (flawed) characters.
(glad to help)
I can assure you I perfectly understood what you meant ;)
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No worries. Posts like this help me calm down during arguments like this. So I'll also apologize if I'm acting to agressive/passive agressive (doesn't help that I've lost my work when I was almost done…and I liked my first draft better).
I'm glad someone around here is actually willing to argue with me.
[hide]
You're treating Hyouzou's fight as if it is a perfect mirror image though. I've brought up the whole he "ended" the fight with Hyouzou arg as one clear difference between the two. Here's another.
Sure, both fights started with Zoro defending an attack by an opponent that was aimed towards his crew, but the mindset of starting the fights were different.
Assuming it needs to be is missing the point. The point is what IS a mirror image. A lot of the reasons people (Tashigi and many of the fans who choose to believe her) are assuming that Zoro is such a sexist are the very things that are mirrored in the Hyouzou fight. You need to keep the reasoning for comparing the two fights in mind. So with that understanding…
With Hyouzou, http://www.batoto.net/read/_/99581/one-piece_v65_ch639_by_mangarule/19. He didn't do that because "Robin couldn't handle Hyouzou", he did that because he wanted to fight a swordsman. All those reasons why you've been defending Zoro not finishing Monet off right away might be acceptable, but there's only applicable to Hyouzou's fight.
Here's the context of Monet vs Zoro. http://www.batoto.net/read/_/137256/one-piece_ch685_by_mangarule/18 Nobody else can handle her, I need to take care of this. He's protecting the crew.
Who cares? It's irrelevant. Even still, it wasn't going to be pretty if Hyouzou changed his target to Nami or even random citizens after Zoro let him run away. Yet he's not getting lambasted for that hypothetical. He also never let Monet leave the room to chase the others down in the first place, but he's getting lambasted on a "well, what if she managed to" hypothetical. It stinks of hypocrisy from the fanbase. I don't even care if people want to be mad at the guy, just be consistent or the sexism finger needs to turn around and look the other direction.
That's why comparing Monet's fight with Hody seems to be a better case. http://www.batoto.net/read/_/91817/one-piece_v63_ch617_by_mangarule/14 Here he also needed to hold Hody off because nobody in the room can handle the fight, but he didn't have a soft spot for Hody.
The Hody fight was on a VERY short timer. He had no choice but to act quickly because he had no time.
Zoro didn't seem to actively not end the fight because she's a woman
What? takes out double negative "Zoro seemed to actively end the fight because she's a woman." Ok, what? I'm just going to change this to what I assume it's supposed to mean, so the beginning of this next quote is altered.
It seemed like Zoro didn't want to actively end the fight because she's a woman (unless you want to argue a better claim that fits both Zoro's context of not liking some things to cut up and Sanji's line about Zoro having a soft spot for some people), and it's that very acknowledgement which is what I'm arguing against. Taking that into account, I'll ask again, why didn't Zoro just end the fight once he realized he was superior to Monet?
Let's not bother beating around the bush and just come out and say what it is that you want to. Zoro hesitated because he didn't want to cut a woman. Is that about right? The perception and implications to support that are certainly there.
This might come as a surprise to you, but if you recall my older posts in this thread it won't. But I agree, it appears likely that there's at least an element of that within his actions. But rather than throwing my monitor at the wall in disgust, I question why that could be the case. It comes down, quite simply, to the idea that Kuina's death affected him. It's not about being strong or weak or pretty or ugly, nor is it some sort of indictment of the female gender. It's about him simply not enjoying cutting up girls. Gasp. This is actually perfectly normal. What really matters to me is if he's willing to when it comes down to it, and he proved that he is. So let the man be human. It's not even confirmed as his actual reasoning anyway.
I think the experience was also a factor, personally, but nobody cares about that. I don't argue that it was even the majority of his reasoning anyway, so it's pointless to go in depth about it until someone actually does care.
At this point I'm wondering how much of this argument comes down to not so much fact as opinion especially since
I want to stop here because I feel like this is important. There is VERY LITTLE "fact" in this chapter. Zoro's psyche is left largely ambiguous at the end of this chapter. There are implications, and we all have our own perceptions. But the truth is that none of us actually KNOW. The fanbase is pushed largely in a certain direction by Tashigi who may have never been right about Zoro in her lifetime. That stinks of red herring to me. These are questions that will get answered in the end, and a lot of people would probably feel foolish except they won't remember what they posted this week anyways.
The only things I take at face value are the words of Zoro and Sanji, both of which are still fairly ambiguous in nature. But questioning something like his claim that he was going to cut Monet at the end is simply not giving him the credit he deserves.
You're not only admitting that this is in part the case for Zoro's actions, but seem okay with them.
Me personally, I find the whole holding back because I don't like harming a girl (whether it's taken to a Sanji extreme or just somebody with this philosophy) fairly insulting on principle. This is not the same as saying you're actively looking to slice down girls, that's just silly.
But the principle of holding back is entrenched with the notion that you view a woman as not an equal standing as a man, regardless of their training/past/experience etc.
I don't like harming girls either. Most guys don't. I don't see it as insulting, rather I see it as normal. This is also Japan that we're talking about, here. It's a more patriarchal society.
But the major point here is that not liking to cut girls doesn't equate to thinking less of them. That's a baseless leap to make (hi Tashigi!). I don't like to read certain genres, but that doesn't mean that I think they're in some way inferior. It's personal preference. Zoro also doesn't have any interest in cutting diamond. Does that make diamond somehow inferior? That'd just be silly.
Nothing this chapter really made me think otherwise. Zoro seemed content with blocking Monet's attacks just like Sanji parried Kalifa's.
Now you're just being ridiculous. How about the fact that Zoro cut Monet? Something Sanji could never do. Don't equate how the two treat females or I'll really begin to think less of you.
So again, what did Monet need to do to get Zoro to use that intimidation technique? Be a threat? It was clear Sanji was superior to Kalifa, but he lost (and I realize getting rubbed down by a woman can be considered a vastly different scenario, but I guess you can take rub down to be attack X that could stall/take out Zoro while she's off killing the crew).
Simply reach a literary boiling point, however it gets reached. It happens in nearly every fight that isn't interrupted.
What is the other answer? I've already brought it up earlier, but Zoro messing around in fights is not part of his character. He used that line once in the entire story in a different context, and you're considering that Zoro's always been like that. He likes challenging himself, but when it's not a challenge he doesn't just mess around with the opponent, he ends the fight. So when Zoro was called out multiple times on "why won't you harm Monet", if the answer was because he was training/found her a non-threat, it should've been explicit.
He doesn't answer, that's the thing. Nobody knows what it is for sure, so all we can do is speculate about it. You can't claim to know better than anyone else, nor can I, so we do what we can do dig up hints. And he does have a history of drawing easy fights out longer than they need to be, granted it's not a long one. He did it against Cabaji and Hyouzou, and to a small degree against Braham (I dislike using that example). Most of his fights don't grant him such a luxury. I don't even know why I continue to attempt to argue this because I only ever wanted to mention it as a potential alternative.
The reason why I'm pressing my point so much is because you seem content if my argument is partially right, and if that's the case fine. But I don't agree with the reasoning of hesitating other than the fact that's she's a woman, or that even if there was that it'd be a good thing (though I'll admit, I have no idea if I'd even emphasize Zoro's arrogance as a strong point if it wasn't brought up during other topics, but that's a good point to make regardless)
And Zoro would be hard on himself if the fight didn't go in his favor. And calling a guy out when he's being a bit hypocritical instead of excusing his actions seems perfectly fair. And it's not like I'm going "I hate Zoro forever now GRRR" either.
But you also need to acknowledge that you might not be seeing the situation with the level of clarity that you believe.
I notice there's an expectation within the fanbase that Zoro should be like an AI character, robotic and consistent about everything that he does. When, hey, he's supposed to be a human with a few flaws.
For the first paragraph, that's the cocky/overconfidence mindset that allows weaker opponents to beat better opponents all the time.
That doesn't assure that he would lose. That might give him a CHANCE to lose.
As for the second argument, just like there's no reason to go all out right away, there's also no reason to delay a fight if you're certain of your victory.
Unless, you know, there's some reason like an emotional hurdle to overcome. One of many possibilities, most likely.[/hide]
Moving on. @blader[hide]@blader37:
Zoro doesn’t like to fight women… Something that goes completely against what his character is established upon. His last words to Kuina were completely thrown out the window.
The logical fallacy in all of this is that you're assuming that he doesn't like to fight women because he perceives them to be weak. That's not stated by him or implied by him in any way, shape, or form. Ever.
Here's the way I see it. Zoro doesn't think women are weak. Zoro still doesn't really like to fight women.
@Urouge, the thing about taking it easy or stalling for weaker opponents so that they can leave instead of having Zoro to finish them. Zoro’s only done that against Hyouzou and now Monet. He has never done this before.
Zoro has always finished off his opponents without hesitation before. Most of them were over and done within one hit.
If its a new arrogant trait or development then lets see were it takes us, I don't like it so far.Ok, but you don't deny that it's not specific to women. That's the point.
Like Gizmo was saying this situation in circumstances is closer to being similar with Hody than Hyouzou.
- This current situation Monet is great danger to the weaker strawhats.
- The gas is following up towards Zoro’s location.
- Monet is obviously the biggest obstacle standing in the way of everyone’s well being.
- It seems to me like they can defend against her just fine, they just don't possess the tools to defeat her.
- The gas is nowhere in sight.
- Monet isn't an obstacle to anyone, because they've all left already.
The two situations just don't seem that similar to me. [/hide]
And lastly…
@Enlighten:Tashigi exists as vehicle to explore Zoro's past and how he comes to terms with it. Just Like Ace's death and the Mystery of Sabo Drive Luffy's development.
I completely agree here. I don't want to get too much into the specifics of your character analysis, but I'll give you my general thoughts on both. First, I think you did a very good job with them and they seem well thought out. I'm impressed. At the same time, I think you try to get a little too specific at certain points and slip into theory, which is fine of course, but it gives the whole thing a different feel and gives people an excuse to disregard the important stuff. Overall I'd grade it quite high.
This thread has been divided into two sides. one vehemently denies any effect of gender on Zoro's behavior the last couple of chapters. I like to call these the blind believers. And the other, My least favorite, are the sexism brigade. Who are overcome by paroxysms of yelling sexism! and Sanji! between bouts of "here in California we do things differently" So I say sit down before you hurt yourselves. This is not your liberal utopia where we all drive Priuses and recycle everything.
Hey now. Not everybody can be so easily categorized. I've tried to remain unbiased about this, and there are plenty who agree with me I think.
This a story with Characters who have real flaws and CONFLICT.
Thank you! I have felt… so alone about this one.
More importantly the Manga, far more clearly than the anime, shows that her death was suspicious. maybe she did die from a fall. Most likely she killed herself. More importantly, Zoro probably thinks so too. He probably has survivor's guilt. He probably blames himself for pushing her too hard. Maybe if he let her be the biggest fish in her little pond. Maybe that would be enough. True or imagined these feelings of guilt and anger that are deeply repressed shape Zoro's personality. We only get a flash-back of this past when Zoro thinks he is going to die by firing squad. That is how deep this man represses these feelings. This is further enforced by the fact that Kuina's sword is the only one that Zoro deems irreplaceable. This is at the same time he meets Tashigi. Notice he never calls Tashigi by her name always fraud or captain four eyes. Nor does he ever utter Kuina's name in her presence. People always cover up emotion with attitude or humor. Zoro always goes extra bad-ass in front of Tashigi. All that bullshit about beasts and what not. Look for him calling her by name as sign of him coming to term with his past.
I think this is my favorite part of the entire post. I really do agree with a whole lot of the things that you say. I'm unfortunately in a hurry, but I hope I can look at this all in more detail later.
Maybe this is a kids' manga but when it got complicated clearly it went over your heads.
But please don't make such gross generalizations. Like any population set, there's variance.
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Could you point to the moment when Tashigi tried to take credit for beating Monet. I haven't seen such occurrence.
Just meant to say that I found funny that Tashigi ends up giving the finishing blow in such a cool pose when she was being outclassed by her.
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If I may add something to the almost 700 posts that have been written already here I go.
THIS CHAPTER IS FANTASTIC: The main reason why I`m stating this proudly is because any chapter that brings controversy and clash of viewpoints has to be superb under any perspective! Criticism and controversy brings facts and emotions, some of them will rile up with others and in the end after some "constructive dialogue" we will all see it clearer (hopefully). The so called ambiguity of this chapter has been a fist that has been connected into our minds masterfully by ODA.Some complexity will make us dig deep down to where we stand in regards to the actual truth of OP. The more disparity among thoughts there is the more we will learn from the angles of perception.
I wonder if we will get to the 1000 posts… anyway Kudos to Oda
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A problem with manga is people seem to want the main characters to be perfect (or even all characters?) because there's inevitably going to be fan clubs and all that created around them. Yet when you use flawed characters in books, they get automatic praise for being multi-dimensional. It's a thin line to tread on for manga writers.
I am perfectly fine with flawed main characters in manga! I would love it if this character flaw of Zoro's came back to bite him in the ass later.
I think for many people, the issue is not that Zoro is flawed, but rather that it came out of nowhere, and contradicts what was shown about the character. Now if Oda explains this more in depth later, while still keeping with what he's previously shown about Zoro, I would have been fine with it.
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Oh, and so the new trend, when we all state, that we love humanly flawed characters, started.
I was going to state that I like flawed characters, but now I don't think it's necessary any more, nor would it carry any meaning. Still the statement remains true. -
And the other, My least favorite, are the sexism brigade. Who are overcome by paroxysms of yelling sexism! and Sanji! between bouts of "here in California we do things differently" So I say sit down before you hurt yourselves. This is not your liberal utopia where we all drive Priuses and recycle everything.
This is obviously aimed at me, given the details, so thanks, really.
I only brought up my personal background and biases (which you are twisting and exaggerating here to personally attack with; I won’t be able to afford a Prius for quite a while) at the point when I realized that by juxtaposing them with those of a man born and raised in Japanese society, the entire issue is damn near resolved, for me, via cultural relativism. Sexism itself is relative, and I can’t very well accuse Oda of being a bad writer for injecting too much abject sexism into his story if it’s the case that he doesn’t even see it that way. Some still might, but that seems like a pointless crusade to me. I dislike what Oda is doing with Zoro as a character, but that’s all in the game of being a reader. It doesn’t have to ruin the experience the way that it would if Oda came out in an interview and said, “It’s true- I hate women and think they’re weak, and I’m going to make a point from now on of making sure that all my strong male characters reflect my views.” Remembering that I’ve been raised as a socially progressive person and what that means to my problems with this chapter was entirely a positive thing that didn’t elicit any antagonism, except from you. Furthermore, with a few outlying exceptions (who post a one-liner and then leave forever) the entire argument thus far has been conducted civilly and without any assholery or your so-called paroxysms from either side.Maybe this is a kids' manga but when it got complicated clearly it went over your heads.
You have an interesting interpretation of the character, and I’d be lying if I said that I wouldn’t be pleased as punch if what you’re proposing proved to be true. Complex, flawed characters are good. I’m just not seeing the complex part of Zoro yet (that he has survivor's guilt is still pure conjecture) and you claiming that you see, know, and understand everything while everyone else is just so goddamn stupid is not helping your case.
Want a peek at your own bias? Here it is:
Imagine how hard that is for him to cut a women's face her essence.
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I am perfectly fine with flawed main characters in manga! I would love it if this character flaw of Zoro's came back to bite him in the ass later.
I think for many people, the issue is not that Zoro is flawed, but rather that it came out of nowhere, and contradicts what was shown about the character. Now if Oda explains this more in depth later, while still keeping with what he's previously shown about Zoro, I would have been fine with it.
The question for those people is what they find contradicting for Zoro character .
Reading all of the thread i see some people want to just focus on certain parts of the chapter\Zoro and complete discard another part .
You have to looking at everything which people are not doing . -
(glad to help)
I can assure you I perfectly understood what you meant ;)
Salame to you, brother. I am glad we could resolve this peacefully. Gotta admit I was afraid to check my notifications box because… well... this is APForums, haha. That's not a bad thing, but there can often be a lot of debating over small things.
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If go down this path, this weeks discussion will end up like last weeks. I've explained those things before.
Luffy has no such issues unlike Sanji or Zoro who hesitates. The only thing is Oda willing to show this issue Seriously or not, and I believe he will not. Its just how people think in different parts of the world. Oda's Presentation of Zoro's character is honorable in my opinion, its a good thing he goes easy on women.Imagine an author who hates vilolence on women sending a message that hitting women is alright…
When Oda wants us to hate a villain he pretty much makes us see him beating the shit out of a woman. Those types of characters are the most HATED in this manga.
This same author cannot send a message of having his male "Good Moral" characters hitting women.
Oda goes above and beyond to show this.The Big problem here is, like I've been saying there's a double standard here. "pretty" women vs. "unattractive" women
We see how differently both are treated.I was addressing the meta-argument that Oda is sexist and won't let the good guys punch out beautiful girls. And I just proved that a good character -> Luffy, beat up a pretty woman.
If you say it's because of it's character, then it immediately becomes a character issue, and not a meta-issue.
Oda clearly has no problems with moral characters beating up pretty girls. Heck this whole fucking chapter was about sexism. Oda portrayed Zoro in a bad light because he was being sexist.About Zoro, after reading all the arguments I got to the conclusion THIS is his character Arc. He once knew a strong swordwoman. And they fought, and she always won. But then she died, and he never found a strong swordswoman before. Not only that, she died falling of some stairs. Died because she had a weak body.
She wanted him to see her as any swordsman, and he saw Her (Kuina) as a swordsman before he saw her as a woman. However, that didn't change his morals about women. Ones that are probably similar to ancient japan, since he follows something similar to the Bushido. So he respects women, but does not like to hit her. Heck I feel bad hitting a woman. Everybody does. And Zoro is no exception.
The fact that that mild form of sexism (that I don't see any wrong in. I'm treating woman in a different way because they're different. It's objective that most women are more fragile than most men) is addressed by Oda means he isn't sexist, and sees some fault in that sexism, or at least that he acknowledges the issue. We just have to wait to see where Zoro's and Kuina's story is going. This is more of a beginning than it is an end. I imagine she will show him that woman ought to be treated the same as man.
But I don't know why the hate on Zoro.Heck in your childhood a girl kick's your ass every time. Then whines about being a girl… then dies.
At what point does that make the guy think it is okay to slash in a half all the girls in the planet? Heck, if a girl hurts me, I hurt her... but I can't not hold back. It's an instinct, and I don't even know if it is a cultural or biological one. And I don't even know if it's only about sex. I feel the same about skinny wimpy guys (like me), and children. I don't get why people whine so much about it. Equality of rights is one thing. Equality of everything else is strange, because man and woman are not even equals...But I agree, the take on this chapter depends much on the views of each person. But Oda didn't strawman any position. Only Zoro didn't really defend himself, he just said 'yeah, I don't like to cut woman, cut her yourself if you're so damn eager' and when she was about to get killed, he just got all "well, ain't you cocky... I don't like to cut cute girls, but a man's got to do what a man's got to do" and slashed her up.
And I believe he would've dealt the finishing blow. Or at least move out of the way and hit her in the head with haki. He wouldn't get himself killed, that's for sure. Heck he probably noticed Tashigi would deal with it, with Kenbunshoku.It was a chapter about sexism. That much is true. And I don't know why anyone in their right mind would call an author sexist by writing a story about sexism. It's like saying he's racist because he wrote fishmen island...
The difference is that in this case, the main character is the one with the flaw. And it isn't a main plot point. It's one that will be dealt with sparingly, and will probably last until the last third of the series. -
Guys. Guys….Guys. I've got it. Zoro reacted out of character with Robin..Because he wuvs her. There. Issue resolved.
Any rate, there's been some good discussions going on. Although it's funny that when people that just freshly read the chapter the same arguments that were dying down pop up again. Slightly jealous that I can't write well enough to really keep up or well, make a difference :ninja:. Just when I think I've written something good, BAM. A novella appears explaining the issues at hand more than I could.
I sort of wish Oda hadn't been so mysterious with that one line about having things he doesn't like to cut. On the other hand, it generated a lot of discussion. I still firmly believe it's not a matter of Zoro being sexist in the way Tashigi believes it to be, but rather Tashigi also projecting her insecurities onto him simply because he didn't finish her off. I think it may have been even more muddled for her to believe that this pirate is being merciful or lenient towards an opponent for any reason. So even after hearing his reason for not killing her, she seems to twist it to being that it's only she's a woman.
Super late response to whoever was asking for women's opinions on this. I feel I may need to change my user name. Having Baroness in it isn't enough of a clue that I'm female? Been posting for paaaages.