The video's are online everywhere. Even the BBC has a video of him still alive and covered in blood with crowds of people retelling the story.
Rock the Casbah: Arab-World Revolutions
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I am curious as to what they'll do with his body at the end. I always get reminded of Achilles disgracing Hector's dead body, in scenarios like this. But then again Hector was a likable hero in Homer's Iliad, a noble prince and not a murderous and insane bastard like Gaddafi. I wonder if there will be any attempts of retrieval of the body by loyalists.
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The video's are online everywhere. Even the BBC has a video of him still alive and covered in blood with crowds of people retelling the story.
I've see all three. Where was there a cell phone video detailing an official order to kill him lol.
You want to know what an official killing without trial would look like?
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Ceausescu was the strongest resistor to the inevitability of the Eastern European Spring, he argued face to face with Gorbachev and cursed him as ending everything. While other European communists slowly gave way more and more to their people, such as Poland and the USSR itself, he maintained a hard line with North Korea his inspiration.
One man holds back millions of people with all his might, and things happened when the rubber band finally gives way.
Dictatorship should not be tolerable in this 21st Century. Feel at best pity for these miserable Citizen Kanes and their warped egos, and their fittingly ignoble ends.
But stop there. -
@Monkey:
I've see all three. Where was there a cell phone video detailing an official order to kill him lol.
If you shoot someone and leave them to die slowly of blood loss while hundreds and hundreds of Government forces are about, then the chances are they wanted him dead, or that the people there weren't listening to their orders. Either way its not a good outcome.
You want to know what an official killing without trial would look like?
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Honestly no, i hate this kind of thing. And in relation to the Gaddafi debate….don't want to see people turn into the very monster they hated.
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Another "bad guy" is down..
who´s next in the list ??Nevertheless, congratulations Libya !! [hide] now, change your flag:ninja:[/hide]
Berlusconi, Putin, Merkel, Obama, Cameron, Sarkozy,….
Or even better the puppet masters behind these dolls.edit:
I can't resist, i don't know if someone posted this before, cause i didn't read the last dozens of pages.
Do you really know whats going on, it isn't about freedom, human rights or elimination of dictators.
They only care about money.
Why didn't the western countries interfere in Tunesia or Egypt during their revolution, cause these countries don't have important resources.
And, if someone says that in both countries no crimes against humanity were performed.
Then i say this:
The Nato isn't going to bomb Syria, cause there are no mineral resources even if there are crimes against humanity.
They will only tighten the sanctions. -
Half a year ago no one in Denmark really believed it would happen, but here we are, it's finally over. One more down.
Now, whats the status on Assad and Syria? -
Assad's probably shitting his pants right now.
THEY KILLED HIM
AND THEN THEY'RE GOING TO KILL ME
OH MY GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOD
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If you shoot someone and leave them to die slowly of blood loss while hundreds and hundreds of Government forces are about, then the chances are they wanted him dead, or that the people there weren't listening to their orders.
You know I suspected it when you mentioned "MILITANTS" earlier, just by the tone of the language…
But you really have no idea about the character of the revolutionary forces do you. Like, at all.
Have you actually been following this thread??
Honestly no, i hate this kind of thing. And in relation to the Gaddafi debate….don't want to see people turn into the very monster they hated.
Really Smudger? That's the issue you're identifying with being the monster? Really?
You need to seriously sit down with Bar Kum and have a talk.–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Berlusconi, Putin, Merkel, Obama, Cameron, Sarkozy,….
Or even better the puppet masters behind these dolls.edit:
I can't resist, i don't know if someone posted this before, cause i didn't read the last dozens of pages.
Do you really know whats going on, it isn't about freedom, human rights or elimination of dictators.
They only care about money.Jacko, have you ever made a good post?
I mean give me one good reason to assume you're like intelligent and capable of actually learning anything about the current events and past events they mirror. Like I can assume Smudger is just off on a tizzy and will be back with us soon. But is there any reason I should actually dignify your confused Youtube comment level bullshit with a rebuttal?Why didn't the western countries interfere in Tunesia
Because Tunisia was over in seconds and was basically not violent.
or Egypt during their revolution,
That was over in weeks and was basically not violent.
cause these countries don't have important resources.
Gaddafi was fighting his people for a number of weeks and it escalated into an all out bloodbath where the threat of the annihilation of an entire city full of people including one of the members of this forum was imminent.
Oh also, it's really cool that your language here is completely Westerncentric, and you don't seem to have the actual revolution's goals in mind whatsoever. Cool bro.
The people in these countries are just toothless peasants running around yelling right?And, if someone says that in both countries no crimes against humanity were performed.
Then i say this:No seriously, where were the war crimes in Egypt and Tunisia.
The Nato isn't going to bomb Syria, cause there are no mineral resources even if there are crimes against humanity.
They will only tighten the sanctions.No actually that's because
1. The Syrian opposition has not requested interference. Something that the Libyans did.
2. Russia and China have flat out rejected escalation at the UN.
3. Syria is an ally of Iran. Would you escalate violence in an ally with an ornery monster like Iran? Libya was a virtual pariah state with no material friends outside of Chavez's showmanship.
4. Syria is sitting on top of a potential Yugoslavian war between religions and ethnicities. Kurds, Sunnis, Alawite Shias, Christians, Assyrians… Because if Iraq taught us one thing, you don't just march into that shit.
5. Syria's military is much stronger than Libya's.How about you do research before opening your big goddamn mouth.
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But who ARE the puppet masters behind the most powerful people on the planet????
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Let me tell you about the Reptilians…
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Berlusconi, Putin, Merkel, Obama, Cameron, Sarkozy,….
Or even better the puppet masters behind these dolls.edit:
I can't resist, i don't know if someone posted this before, cause i didn't read the last dozens of pages.
Do you really know whats going on, it isn't about freedom, human rights or elimination of dictators.
They only care about money.
Why didn't the western countries interfere in Tunesia or Egypt during their revolution, cause these countries don't have important resources.
And, if someone says that in both countries no crimes against humanity were performed.
Then i say this:
The Nato isn't going to bomb Syria, cause there are no mineral resources even if there are crimes against humanity.
They will only tighten the sanctions.I really, really hate people like you. It's the Dunning-Krueger Effect, the less you know, the more you think you know.
"I bet it's all because of the money/oil MAAAAN!"
Yeah, sure, everything a country does can be boiled down to a single motivation or goal. There's no divergence of opinion whatsoever when it comes to foreign policy, the West is just the big mean machine.
Those evil Western powers, man they just pick and choose which revolutions! As though that were the only thing going on, like there are no other considerations besides geopolitical resource hoarding.
Guess what, most government officials aren't, in fact, mustache-twirling villains. They're humans, just like you and me, they have compassion and they have flaws in judgement.
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@Monkey:
Let me tell you about the Reptilians…
My interest in the world has just peeked! A WAR IS COMING!
runs and gets weapons ready
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In the end the death of the great Brother Leader Muammar Gaddafi was but the beginning. The beginning of those western fiends to take over and get their OIL…!!
Obama...Merkel...Sarkozy…
These are the true dictators of the world, not martyrs like Gaddafi or Saleh!!!!
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Jacko can you explain the fairly similar NATO intervention in the former Yugoslavia? You know, that oil rich mineral bastion and well known international lynchpin that is Kosovo?
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So, what is the next "Obama is evil" propaganda? -
@Monkey:
Let me tell you about the Reptilians…
But the tinfoil hat gives me dandruff…
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What alien world so some people come from where they don't get the concept of basic diplomacy and participation in the global community means that world leaders meet with shady motherfucker world leaders and have to do shit like shake hands and talk about issues.
Like do they think you can become president and just completely ignore mercurial strongmen in vital regions?
LALALA GADDAFI I AM NOT LISTENING TO YOU LALALA -
The impact of Obama shaking hands with that madman is diminished by the fact that said madman's dressed like a geisha, to be honest.
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This post is deleted!
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@Monkey:
What alien world so some people come from where they don't get the concept of basic diplomacy and participation in the global community means that world leaders meet with shady motherfucker world leaders and have to do shit like shake hands and talk about issues.
Like do they think you can become president and just completely ignore mercurial strongmen in vital regions?
LALALA GADDAFI I AM NOT LISTENING TO YOU LALALAIt's ridiculous. I want to know what these clowns think they would do in the president's shoes.
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But who ARE the puppet masters behind the most powerful people on the planet????
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Hahaha, This is too rich, not to put it in here.
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Side note: Happy for Lybia, hope they achieve stability soon. It´s time to rebuild and they are going to need a lot of help and union.
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Don't go crossing the illuminati now, you hear?
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Hahaha, This is too rich, not to put it in here.
Best parts:
- Libya having the same general shape of Connecticut
- King Abdullah with the pimp staff
- Cameron clearly having not a single clue what's going on
- "LYBIA"
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That ugly lump DOES NOT look like Connecticut. We have a much smoother underbelly, a weird chip in our head from Mass hitting us, and a fine plump wang dangling down into New York City.
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I would prefer he was captured alive and tried, not killed in shady circumstances. Now they say it was a crossfire, but before they said it was a young "hero" that killed him.
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Truthfully, I don't see what the point is for a trial in this circumstance. In the end, he would've just been sentenced to execution anyway. Besides, I'm hardly going to fault people for killing him after all of the deaths and torture he's been responsible for. I'll be looking to see how they do in the future to see if things will really end up for the better.
I hope Libya can come out better for this though I get worried when I hear about Bar Kum's posts about people beating up their college professors, and people who saw Gaddafi as a hero no matter what crimes he caused. It reminds me that while he's a nice guy in all of this, he's not representative of every person over there. So, I hope everything can go for the best for you and your people, Bar Kum.
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@RobbyBevard:
http://socioecohistory.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/dollar_bill_showing_new_world_order.gif
Don't go crossing the illuminati now, you hear?
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People saying Libya is purely about the oil annoys me no end. People like Gaddafi are the best friends of oil companies as they're perfectly willing to let outside organizations like oil companies exploit their natural resources in exchange for kickbacks.
Populist revolts lead to funny ideas like "Maybe we shouldn't work with companies that used to work with Herr Manfred von Dictatorstein" and "Hey, maybe we should be making money off our resources instead", which either leads to them looking at other companies instead, demanding new deals from whoever the previous Beloved Leader was working with, or kicking them out, nationalizing the production facilities, and doing it themselves.
If you want to gain control of somebody else's resources, you don't support a populist movement, which is going to do what they want. You go in, toss out the current regime, and put in a puppet regime of your own choosing that you support no matter how corrupt and incompetent they might be.
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@Monkey:
Let me tell you about the Reptilians…
Thy knowssss toooo muchsssss..
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Anyone posted what Cairo Mhandu of Mugabe's Zanu-PF said about Gaddafi's death ?
This is a sad day for the people of Africa… Muammar Gaddafi won elections and was a true leader. It is foreigners who toppled him, not Libyans. Gaddafi died fighting. He is a true African hero." Mhandu called the former leader's downfall "the beginning of a new recolonisation of Africa
Oh no, the armed forces of the British Gaydom are gonna force everyone to convert to gayism !
And of course what day would be complete without Hugo Chávez telling everyone that water is not wet and that gravity doesn't work
"We shall remember Gaddafi our whole lives as a great fighter, a revolutionary and a martyr. They assassinated him. It is another outrage."
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Mugabe's only saying that because he realizes his only friend left is Hugo fucking Chavez, and vice-versa.
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@Cyan:
Mugabe's only saying that because he realizes his only friend left is Hugo fucking Chavez, and vice-versa.
I have to wonder though. Do you honestly believe that either Chavez or Mugabe legitimately believe the highly un realistic and in-denial statements they make that everyone else in the world knows is complete bs ?
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Mugabe presumably has the same line of thinking as Castro ("I'M OLD SO I'MMA SAY CRAZY SHIT")
Chavez is like that really short kid who hangs onto the school bullies for self-esteem and says stuff like "YEAH WHAT HE SAID"
Not like it's going to matter what they say in five years, as Mugabe's going to finally drop dead of old age at some point and Chavez will let the cancer get him.
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People saying Libya is purely about the oil annoys me no end. People like Gaddafi are the best friends of oil companies as they're perfectly willing to let outside organizations like oil companies exploit their natural resources in exchange for kickbacks.
Populist revolts lead to funny ideas like "Maybe we shouldn't work with companies that used to work with Herr Manfred von Dictatorstein" and "Hey, maybe we should be making money off our resources instead", which either leads to them looking at other companies instead, demanding new deals from whoever the previous Beloved Leader was working with, or kicking them out, nationalizing the production facilities, and doing it themselves.
If you want to gain control of somebody else's resources, you don't support a populist movement, which is going to do what they want. You go in, toss out the current regime, and put in a puppet regime of your own choosing that you support no matter how corrupt and incompetent they might be.
Not to mention the enormous risk and gamble that flies in the face of the realpolitick, of boosting a revolutionary wave.
If Gaddafi had been left alone, rolled into Benghazi, slaughtered thousands, imprisoned and tortured the rest, than the momentum of the Arab Spring would very probably have died right then and there. An incredibly depressing and scary failure for all to see. Gaddafi wouldn't just be quashing his own uprising, but the whole region's uprising. He would have destroyed the spirit.
Syria may not have risen up at all, Bahrain would have lost it's wind, Yemen may have puttered out, and potential further uprisings in countries like Saudi Arabia, Iran, and Oman, and the reforms in Morocco and Jordan may have also been stamped out.NATO and the White House in particular made those big choices to literally keep the Arab Revolutions alive by keeping Libya's revolution alive, and have ultimately made it successful.
Evidently we are even alright with the Bahraini crackdown, but Libya helps the opposition there in terms of morale.This is so far from ALL ABOUT MONEY AND BASIC KISSINGER COLD HEARTED INTEREST STABILITY it's not even funny.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
@No:
I have to wonder though. Do you honestly believe that either Chavez or Mugabe legitimately believe the highly un realistic and in-denial statements they make that everyone else in the world knows is complete bs ?
I think Chavez does. But Mugabe is too cold and calculating, he's playing politics.
Lukashenko I hope is peeing his damn pants right now.
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@Monkey:
Lukashenko I hope is peeing his damn pants right now.
Would Putin really let him fall though ? Even if they have disagreements, it's the one country in europe that's basicly the same as Russia right about now :P
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Putin likes Lukashenko as much as the Chinese love Kim Jong-Il - less than is commonly believed. His idiocy doesn't do Russia any real good, whereas criticising him and his actions awards them (Russians) some free points in the eyes of the West. If he were to fall, I doubt the Russians would be bothered to do anything about it.
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Robot Roll Call!
Gaddafi: Killed.
Mohammed: In Algeria.
Saif Islam: Either captured or fleeing south, unconfirmed.
Saadi: In Niger.
Hannibal: In Algeria.
Ayesha: In Algeria.
Mutassim: Killed.
Saif Arab: Killed.
Khamis: Killed. -
Rest in peace, Muammar.
! > A convoy carrying Gaddafi and Abu Bakr Younis Jaber, came under attack of a NATO bomber while leaving Sirte 8:30 am on October 20th. Surviving Gaddafi and several of his bodyguards tried to hide from pursuing rebels in the drainage pipes. However, the rebels found them, killed all the guards, dragged out the wounded and confused Gaddafi and took him away.
Another survivor is Mansour Dao, who was named as a former head of Gaddafi's personal bodyguard and his relative. Actually, according to this, all the details about Gaddafi's life after Tripoli and the circumstances surrounding his death are derived from his words.
In the middle of the road, the rebels stopped and pulled Gaddafi out of the car, began taking pictures, mocking and beating him, after which one of the rebels - a young 18-year-old Ahmed al-Shaibani - shot him in the head. Then the rebels, to mock the body, took him to Misurata, where an autopsy was carried out, the mutilated body of Colonel was demonstrated to journalists and put on public display.
! Disgraceful. -
Here's a great article published by the BBC today.
It pretty much covers what i have mentioned the past few days as well as a few things/areas i wanted to cover as more and more facts were put in place.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-15398802One challenge will be to disarm the anti-Gaddafi militias and integrate them into government
Video footage shows Col Gaddafi was alive at the time of his capture. That would imply that he was executed by NTC forces. This will cause some consternation in Western capitals - but few will mourn, and it can hardly come as a surprise.
What does this mean for Libya's interim authorities? Col Gaddafi's trial would have been an important statement of justice and accountability. The image of an absolute ruler in the dock would have been on par with that of the ageing Hosni Mubarak lying behind bars in Cairo. But on the other hand, Col Gaddafi's death will preclude any grandstanding from the courtroom, and will bring firm closure to a 40-year tyranny.
The main problem for the NTC is not now loyalist resistance, which remains geographically isolated and manageable.
Rather, the task is disarming and integrating the various anti-Gaddafi militias into a transitional government, without provoking violence or legitimising the politics of the gun.
Revolutions should be less about shattering old structures and more about reconstituting political authority on more humane, rational and legitimate grounds.
In that sense, the Libyan revolution has far to go before its promise is redeemed.And something interesting i wanted to point out.
Troubled transitions
Part of the reason that militias do not want to give up their weapons is that they do not trust the political process. Guns are their insurance policies. Only a legitimate, broad-based transition will persuade many to hand over weapons and disband.I wonder how long it will take for the militias and anti-Gaddafi forces to return to normal life and merge with the new government? I guess its down to the Libyan people trying to gaining their trust in the new leadership before the country can finally breath out and move on from the past years conflict.
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The more I read about it was his own grave he dug. Apparently the rebels he ran into were from Misrata. And if you've been following along you would be all out of "disgracefuls" after reading about the siege there earlier in the year. A city in Tripolitania that DARED to rise up across the board, and was visited with total warfare and nothing short of it, nearly massacred, starved, beaten into a bloody pulp so badly reporters were describing the main street as looking like something out of Mogadishu. There was very nearly a massive humanitarian crisis there of starving, disease, amid being mortar fodder. And no the civilians had never gotten the chance to clear out.
So it turns out as fate would have it, some six or seven months later, as Gaddafi was captured. He didn't end up among rebels from Benghazi, not rebels from Nafusa, not rebels from Tripoli, or even rebels from some small random town.
Instead the crowd that stumbled on to him was from Misrata.Think about it.
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Tens of thousands killed for this one guy who called himself the brother leader.
Tens of thousands arrested and tortured for this one guy who called himself general of arab leaders.
Tens of thousands missing for this one guy who called himself the king of kings.
People losing arms, legs, eyes, brothers, sisters, fathers, mothers, children, houses, safety … all for this one guy who called his people rats and agents.
In the end his fate was that of a tyrant. Truly a disgraceful way to die for a man who people owed no respect for all he's done in his life to them. An oppressor just got oppressed.
After humiliating people all his life, fate got him just what he was playing for all his life.. a humiliating way to die.But I'm pretty sure that kid who was shot in the head just for crossing the street will feel disgraced. Maybe that guard, who's guarding his post with one leg will feel disgraced. Those people who were shelled for standing in line to get bread and water will feel disgraced. Obviously the 1200 prisoners who were killed in an overnight for having a different opinion than his will feel disgraced.
I hate talking about a dead man in this manner, and I wasn't planning on doing so, so forgive me for that.
May all the Libyans and all the ones who met their death this year and Gaddafi rest in peace.
Allah yerhamkum. -
! Disgraceful.
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@Monkey:
Jacko, have you ever made a good post?
I mean give me one good reason to assume you're like intelligent and capable of actually learning anything about the current events and past events they mirror. Like I can assume Smudger is just off on a tizzy and will be back with us soon. But is there any reason I should actually dignify your confused Youtube comment level bullshit with a rebuttal?The problem is simple, i understand english perfectly, but my grammar is miserable. That's the reason why i can't really express my thoughts well and why i'm not posting on profound topics.
It would be arrogant to make a comment about your own intelligance, thats why i'm only saying that i'm well informed about current events. To give you a good reason i'm probably one of the few on this page, who reads a daily news paper.I'll endeavour myself, so that my opinion becomes clear.
Because Tunisia was over in seconds and was basically not violent.
That was over in weeks and was basically not violent.
From which body count does a revolution gets violent in your opinion 10/100/1000?
I would say 0.
Apart from that i only used these examples to clarify that the western countries have no real interest in the political stability of Tunesia or Egypt.
Perhaps they're concerned about the middle east conflict, since Egypt/Israel is important in this conflict. But if they would really care this whole conflict, which is going on for more then 50 years would be solved by now. Ok, it was a little bit generalized to say that USA/Europe only care about money, they care about their own influence, power and money.
My point is that they will reach their goal in both countries without using millitary force.Gaddafi was fighting his people for a number of weeks and it escalated into an all out bloodbath where the threat of the annihilation of an entire city full of people including one of the members of this forum was imminent.
There are dozens of national conflicts going on in this world and in some countries there are crimes against humanity just as in Lybia, so why don't they interfere.
Because of the circumstances:
Are there other powerful countries, which could be against it?
Are there resources they care about?
Is the head of state a friend or a foe?
Would it be woth tho interfere (financial wise)?
Has the goal a powerful military?Some of the question answer your other point about Syria, it wouldn't be worth.
Oh also, it's really cool that your language here is completely Westerncentric, and you don't seem to have the actual revolution's goals in mind whatsoever. Cool bro.
The people in these countries are just toothless peasants running around yelling right?Why oh Why?
Because Europe and USA are throughout history the epitome of evil, you're a history teacher, right Zephos, you should know that a large portion of historical events(political wise) in the last few centuries resolves around the influence and power of Europe and the USA.
And i care about the people, they are the most important thing.
The sad thing is that in these three countries, the people now think that they are free, but they aren't!
After the new political system, they fought for, is established the loop will begin just like in Europe and America.
Every western country fought for their freedom towards the monarchy and they won and what do the people got?
poverty, homelessness, unemployment, the strain to work more and more to have a little bit money to live… , but they can vote thats a big progress.But who ARE the puppet masters behind the most powerful people on the planet????
I answer your question in the words the occupy movement would choose: 1%.
I really, really hate people like you. It's the Dunning-Krueger Effect, the less you know, the more you think you know.
"I bet it's all because of the money/oil MAAAAN!"
Yeah, sure, everything a country does can be boiled down to a single motivation or goal. There's no divergence of opinion whatsoever when it comes to foreign policy, the West is just the big mean machine.
Those evil Western powers, man they just pick and choose which revolutions! As though that were the only thing going on, like there are no other considerations besides geopolitical resource hoarding.
Guess what, most government officials aren't, in fact, mustache-twirling villains. They're humans, just like you and me, they have compassion and they have flaws in judgement.
The first sentencess of my post should answer why my first post was so short, sry.
But you've a point it's all about the money and power.@Monkey:
Jacko can you explain the fairly similar NATO intervention in the former Yugoslavia? You know, that oil rich mineral bastion and well known international lynchpin that is Kosovo?
It's funny that you didn't choose Iraq or Afghanistan to provoke me.
I would differnitiate the methods of the NATO/Europe/USA during the 90s and during the last 10 years.
The enemy image was obviously another and Yugoslavia was suitable. In it's political form it resembled the Yugoslavia Tito created and i would claim this state annoyed some people.
What've we now Kroatia, Kosovo, Bosnia-Herzogovina, Slovenia, Serbia, Montenegro and Macedonia. 7 independent states, which individually aren't powerful, but together?
There always were different cultures and religions thats a fact, but during the cold war the conflicts between all these ethic groups weren't as bad as during the last 20 years.
And guess what even during the Cold War Yugoslavia was a maverick and they made their own thing even with big bad Soviet Russia watching.
That's one part of my opinion why they interfered.
The second one is that there were war crimes, i can't deny the fact that the crimes in Yugoslavia between the ethic groups were a good reason to start a millitary offensive just like in Lybia, but imo the NATO will never start a operation without a hidden agenda. The fact that Milosevic and Gaddafi, even if both of them were dictators, did really well knew how to keep the influence of foreign concerns to a minimum and how they managed to play against the western system, is imo a good reason to start a war. -
They put Gadafi's corpse in a cold room so he'll ne exposed…
:/
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From what I've heard on the radio, possibly executing Gadaffi seems less of a moral issue and more of a legal one. :/
If circumstances allowed it, letting him have a trial and execution would sound easier just to get everyone off their backs. I even got the impression that the UN were calling for an investigation only because they have to.
In other NPR news, here's something interesting (once again, in passing):
Yemen's president is being pressured (possibly by UN) to transfer all power to his deputy and take a 'Gulf-Arab Deal' where he'll be immune from prosecution. I have no clue what that means, but apparently Obama likes the sound of it. -
The problem is simple,
Oh I'm sure it's not.
i understand english perfectly, but my grammar is miserable. That's the reason why i can't really express my thoughts well and why i'm not posting on profound topics.
Oh what a unique flower you are. Why imagine if we had so many other non-English experts on here, maybe than we'd understand you.
It would be arrogant to make a comment about your own intelligance, thats why i'm only saying that i'm well informed about current events.
Mmm…no, I'm gonna say not.
To give you a good reason i'm probably one of the few on this page, who reads a daily news paper.
Nigga I don't even know where to begin with this comment.
From which body count does a revolution gets violent in your opinion 10/100/1000?
I would say 0.Oh alright so your concept of a violent revolution is that a single death is equivalent to roughly around 30,000. That's a really sensible position to make for sure.
Also maybe it's worth noting that Libya was a Civil War, not a protest by the point of intervention, but I'd guess you regard those as just the same thing, violent uprisings.So a week long uprising with a few deaths due to misuse of rubber bullets in like downtown Budapest or something, is the same as the Russian revolution and the ensuing catastrophic civil war/famine. Got it.
Hey if you understand english, do you know what the words "naive" and "unrealistic" mean? How about "sheltered" and "lacking virtually all perspective on history".
Apart from that i only used these examples to clarify that the western countries have no real interest in the political stability of Tunesia or Egypt.
Whoa that's strange, for someone who reads so much newspaper a days I'm really zonked that you haven't heard of the concepts of investment and backing already being given to Tunisia and discussed regarding Egypt from the West. Including the basic idea of Marshall Planning them done by the Obama administration.
But you know, this may be too much to ask, but maybe you should realize your laughable and absolutely stupid idea of thinking the situations in Tunisia and Libya were equivocal because of ANY deaths happening, is completely unrealistic and has no bearing on the actual world, and that once you lose that idea the different treatments start making a lot of sense.
Perhaps they're concerned about the middle east conflict, since Egypt/Israel is important in this conflict. But if they would really care this whole conflict, which is going on for more then 50 years would be solved by now.
What situation in the middle east has been going on for 50 years? The "middle east conflict"? What's that? Whose involved? Where? What does it have to do with the revolutions?
Also I wasn't aware caring about something for 50 years makes a ridiculously sticky and complex ethnic irredentalist feud become solved.
To think, if either France or England actually cared about things they wouldn't have had to have a hundred year war. What silly people.Ok, it was a little bit generalized to say that USA/Europe only care about money, they care about their own influence, power and money.
My point is that they will reach their goal in both countries without using millitary force.Both who? What? What happened to Libya, Tunisia, and Egypt?
There are dozens of national conflicts going on in this world
Name them. Some big ones.
and in some countries there are crimes against humanity just as in Lybia, so why don't they interfere.
Because of the circumstances:
Are there other powerful countries, which could be against it?Of course, and this one can't be ignored because it could cause larger wars.
This is why North Korea must be handled very carefully, and Belarus, or Central Asia. And many others.Are there resources they care about?
I want you to read Ubiq's post. Not once, not twice, but three times over. Read it very carefully.
Is the head of state a friend or a foe?
Gaddafi was actually a friend of the west by the point of 2010. Pragmatically speaking anyway.
Would it be woth tho interfere (financial wise)?
That's funny, hey do you think Iraq was about enriching the US? Is this what happened?
Has the goal a powerful military?
Hey, are you stealing from my other post?
Why oh Why?
Because Europe and USA are throughout history the epitome of evil,Well hello crazy person!
you're a history teacher, right Zephos,
I'm a history/poli-sci student.
you should know that a large portion of historical events(political wise) in the last few centuries resolves around the influence and power of Europe and the USA.
There's also those many centuries that existed before that where things like Romans, Mongols, Arabs, Persians, and perpetually the Chinese did these things.
I guess I'd have to be some kind of Marxist though to cast entire civilizations into some comically juvenile EVIL GOOD cartoon religious dogma style garbage though.And i care about the people, they are the most important thing.
Well you clearly don't give a fuck about the Arabs actually having these revolutions, how dare they break your rigid garbage interpretation of history and do something without being properly manipulated by EVIL powers abroad.
Anyway, juvenile simplistic garbage has no place in reality. And it will never help anybody, least of all those people you're so fond of.
The sad thing is that in these three countries, the people now think that they are free, but they aren't!
No, actually as they're real people like you and me they're aware that they are largely free at the moment but need to create and maintain civil societies and working democracies and that the failure of this can endanger their current freedom.
Maybe you'd like to actually talk to some of them instead of caring about them in theory. Tigerlilly is from Tunisia, Bartholemew Kuma is from Libya. I know another Libyan on RYM too if you want three.
Yeah, actual people with blood and thoughts! Whoa!After the new political system, they fought for, is established the loop will begin just like in Europe and America.
Yeah, god forbid they turn into some sort of international monster like Chile, Poland, or South Korea.
I've been waiting for Slovenia to start killing any day myself.Also, maybe I take this the wrong way, but are you saying that Libya was a peaceful place under Gaddafi that in no way invaded it's neighbors? Funded terrorism? And trained and backed warlords causing and seeding brutal civil wars….already?
Every western country fought for their freedom towards the monarchy
Like the UK right?
and they won and what do the people got?
poverty, homelessness, unemployment, the strain to work more and more to have a little bit money to live…Unfathomaby improved living standards on every single level imaginable.
Hey, the current economy sucks ass sure, but if you're seriously comparing it to the good old days of like the 1800's or whatever you're getting at here I don't even know what to say.I answer your question in the words the occupy movement would choose: 1%.
None of the crap you just posted has anything to do with the Occupy Movement.
It's funny that you didn't choose Iraq or Afghanistan to provoke me.
Maybe when those are NATO humanitarian motions I'll do that. When they resemble the Libyan conflict as well would be nice too, you know something that Yugoslavia vaguely did.
I would differnitiate the methods of the NATO/Europe/USA during the 90s and during the last 10 years.
If you can differentiate THAT, maybe you can do the same with like maybe some other factors that may have shifted throughout these time periods. Just a thought. If you want to start using critical thinking at any point be my guest.
The enemy image was obviously another and Yugoslavia was suitable. In it's political form it resembled the Yugoslavia Tito created and i would claim this state annoyed some people.
ahahaha. Hmm, let's think about this.
Tito was never rebelled against in any relevant way. And to this day is held in reverence by many Yugoslavs.Gaddafi just got fucking shot and killed by his own people who promptly celebrated in the streets with crowds and fireworks and that sort of thing.
Do you want me to point out all the other many ways the two have nothing in common or is that enough for the moment?
What've we now Kroatia, Kosovo, Bosnia-Herzogovina, Slovenia, Serbia, Montenegro and Macedonia. 7 independent states, which individually aren't powerful, but together?
You're blaming this on NATO? Have you done ANY reading on the Yugoslav wars….at all?
There always were different cultures and religions thats a fact, but during the cold war the conflicts between all these ethic groups weren't as bad as during the last 20 years.
Because a dictator bottled it up and forced it to be silent. Than after he died his weak successors couldn't keep a lid on it and a charismatic power hungry bastard took advantage of tensions to gain power and freaked everyone on all sides the fuck out.
And guess what even during the Cold War Yugoslavia was a maverick and they made their own thing even with big bad Soviet Russia watching.
They weren't a Warsaw Pact or East Bloc country, they didn't have to care about what Russia thought.
That's one part of my opinion why they interfered.
You seriously need to look at a timeline of the Yugoslav wars if you think NATO ruined Tito's legacy lol.
The second one is that there were war crimes, i can't deny the fact that the crimes in Yugoslavia between the ethic groups were a good reason to start a millitary offensive just like in Lybia, but imo the NATO will never start a operation without a hidden agenda. The fact that Milosevic and Gaddafi, even if both of them were dictators, did really well knew how to keep the influence of foreign concerns to a minimum and how they managed to play against the western system, is imo a good reason to start a war.
Milosevic did what now? He never ruled over a nation that WASN'T engulfed by ethnic war and strife. Where was this suave clever Milosevic that played the West? He never existed.
Yugoslavia in any size is not important really on the world scale.And Gaddafi was in the west's pocket for a whole decade prior to the revolution.
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[h=1]Muammar Gaddafi's 'trophy' body on show in Misrata meat store[/h]http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/oct/21/muammar-gaddafi-body-misrata-meat-store
Bloodied, wearing just a pair of khaki trousers, and dumped on a cheap mattress, Muammar Gaddafi's body has become a gruesome tourist attraction and a macabre symbol of the new Libya's problems.
Hundreds of ordinary Libyans queued up outside a refrigerated meat store in Misrata, where the dead dictator was being stored as a trophy. A guard allowed small groups into the room to celebrate next to Gaddafi's body. They posed for photos, flashing victory signs, and burst into jubilant cries of "God is great."
[h=1]Gaddafi daughter in hospital after watching her father lynch on TV[/h]http://www.albawaba.com/news/gaddafi-daughter-hospital-after-watching-her-father-lynch-tv-397826