Something that bothers me, and honestly it's probably a simple matter of perception, but was Kaku really convinced of the evil of Nico Robin's existence, or was he just trying to justify his actions to himself? I must admit, a lot of my position for "the current CP9 are devoted to the WG's definition of 'Justice' " stems from some of Kaku's dialogue. On reflection however, I must acknowledge that he did give Zoro the key to Robin's cuffs after his defeat with an air of resignation. If he were fanatically devoted to 'Justice' as I had previously believed, he probably would have swallowed it. I concede my position as logically faulty. My apologies for the hard time, wolfwood.
World Government Corruption?
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I'm like Hisotensoku: Not here to preserve peace, nor to destroy it. I certainly can't move mountains. Mostly, I'm just full of hot air.- Meh
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The world Government anslaves people of countries who do not join them… who can justify that?
"Il turn your name into a synonym for weakness"
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^That only counts as corruption if it is in fact, NOT their standard operating procedure and isn't mentioned specifically in the membership form.
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@_Meh_:
Something that bothers me, and honestly it's probably a simple matter of perception, but was Kaku really convinced of the evil of Nico Robin's existence, or was he just trying to justify his actions to himself? I must admit, a lot of my position for "the current CP9 are devoted to the WG's definition of 'Justice' " stems from some of Kaku's dialogue. On reflection however, I must acknowledge that he did give Zoro the key to Robin's cuffs after his defeat with an air of resignation. If he were fanatically devoted to 'Justice' as I had previously believed, he probably would have swallowed it. I concede my position as logically faulty. My apologies for the hard time, wolfwood.
I'm sure Zoro would have no trouble cutting his stomach open to retrieve it if he did that. Then he would have died on top of everything else. He was probably fully aware that there was no path to prevent Zoro from getting the key at that point.
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Clearly, there must be a very good reason for why the world government is banning all info on the void century and not allowing anyone to read the ponyglyphs.
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Because they're assholes.
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I'm kinda curious why they deleted a century of history instead of, say, rewrite history to make the ancient kingdom as the worst, most corrupt country in the history of the world and the alliance that became the WG the saviours of the world that took down this tyrant.
And how would you even be able to delete a century of history anyway? I'm curious how they were even able to do it.
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I'm kinda curious why they deleted a century of history instead of, say, rewrite history to make the ancient kingdom as the worst, most corrupt country in the history of the world and the alliance that became the WG the saviours of the world that took down this tyrant.
And how would you even be able to delete a century of history anyway? I'm curious how they were even able to do it.
Simple. Go to historians, and point a gun in their face and tell them to not write anything down about it and destory any info about it.
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Certain members of the WG's leadership are evil.
Oda isn't subtle here.
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And how would you even be able to delete a century of history anyway? I'm curious how they were even able to do it.
Technology wasn't that advanced back then.
Heck, Raftel, a nation in possession of doomsday technology, left all their records on stone slabs (poneglyphs). All you would have to do is implement a scorched earth policy and practise heavy censorship. -
I'm kinda curious why they deleted a century of history instead of, say, rewrite history to make the ancient kingdom as the worst, most corrupt country in the history of the world and the alliance that became the WG the saviours of the world that took down this tyrant.
And how would you even be able to delete a century of history anyway? I'm curious how they were even able to do it.
We live in the age of information, the OP world doesn't. It could have been done in our world too several centuries ago. The library of Alexandria was destroid and IIRC several unique documents were lost.
Some historians believe the roman empire destroid several documents about christianity when they took it as the official religion. Hence why a document called "The Gossip of Judas" is not well known to the public or presented in the Bibble. This Gossip claims Judas was Jesus most faithfull friend and follower thus it was him Jesus asked to call the romans so Jesus would be crucified and set an example. This document would have changed the fate of the world if it wasn't "erased" from history by the romans. -
Is he really a good guy? He was ordered to kill the SH's but he sent them to islands where they could get stronger. I know he lost his personality during the war but he was a revolutionary, and maybe he knew Luffy was Dragon's son. So was he a good guy?
Member of the Negima is Super Awesome Group
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He did know about Luffy being Dragon's son.
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Is he really a good guy? He was ordered to kill the SH's but he sent them to islands where they could get stronger. I know he lost his personality during the war but he was a revolutionary, and maybe he knew Luffy was Dragon's son. So was he a good guy?
There is a thread for stupid questions. This topic will most likely be moved there shortly.
Yes, Kuma was very obviously a good guy. We currently are unclear as to whether he still is.
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Right now this is still somewhat of a mystery, but here's a simple timeline of what we know:
1. Kuma was a Revolutionary.
2. Kuma became a Shichibukai and volunteered for Vegapunk's Pacifista project.
3. Kuma showed up at TB with orders to defeat the SHs, knocks most of those present out with Ursus Shock, then allows Zoro to exchange himself for Luffy. Kuma mentions Luffy being Dragon's son.
4. Kuma shows up at SA to save the SHs by sending them to islands where they can get stronger because he's a Revolutionary. He tells Luffy they won't see each other again.
5. Kuma shows up at the war, supposedly a full Pacifista, PX-0, and fights Ivankov, a fellow Revolutionary.
6. 2 years later, Sentoumaru mentions that Kuma had been acting strangely even after becoming PX-0.It seems like he is still a Revolutionary, but has to act like PX-0 around other known Revolutionaries and (presumably) Luffy when the Government is around. That or Vegapunk is a Revolutionary (or maybe just a well-meaning rogue) as well and has programmed Kuma to carry out certain tasks despite being PX-0. Or maybe he WAS PX-0, but Vegapunk later put his memories and personality into his programming.
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Kuma is a mass murdering peace main pirate.
Of course he's a good guy.
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There is a thread for stupid questions. This topic will most likely be moved there shortly.
Yes, Kuma was very obviously a good guy. We currently are unclear as to whether he still is.
That is predicated on revolutionaries being good guys. We know too little to claim that about them.
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The revolutionaries are people who want to overthrow the government because it's a piece of shit. Since Luffy declared war on the WG, you could argue he's one too though not explicitly.
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The revolutionaries are people who want to overthrow the government because it's a piece of shit. Since Luffy declared war on the WG, you could argue he's one too though not explicitly.
Luffy declared war on the WG because it was taking his precious Robin away from him, not because it's shit. BB doesn't like the WG, is he a good guy too?
I admit I don't have a strong case, but shouldn't we be wary of jumping the shark here?
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That's why I said you could "argue." It doesn't matter what his reasons were, Luffy did declare war on the WG. He just doesn't care enough about the WG to set as a goal to topple it over, he just wants to be pirate king.
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The WG Buster Call'ed Ohara, an island of civilian archeologists, just to cover up some secret from the time of its founding which conveniently parallels the fall of the ancient kingdom that made the poneglyphs. I think it's safe to say they have a secret dark side. Plus they tolerate both the Celestial Dragons and the Goa nobles and we've seen how fucked up both those kinds of nobles are.
The Revolutionaries, or rather their leader Dragon, was shown as having a distaste for how the Goa nobles were acting. And they freed Tequila Wolf. From what little we've seen, they seem to be good people. -
LOL, it is pretty simple to see Dragon will overthrow the WG at the end of the series.
At Luffy's flashback we can see the revolutionaries's motives.
All revolutionaries we know up to this point were supposed to be good, or at least, fight for a just cause.
Of course Oda can complicate the plot by making some members of that organization corrupted. Every organization has assholes.
But the Revolutionary Army, in general, are supposed to be more of a force of justice than WG. (and more good posters than the Omega pirates) -
I can see no way that they are justified in their revolutionary ideals.
how about the fact that the WG enslaves any population that wont submit to their rule? im sure there are other similar things too
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how about the fact that the WG enslaves any population that wont submit to their rule? im sure there are other similar things too
Way to quote something from four years ago, you sure got him good.
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Akainu seem to be corrupted his desire to kill Luffy might lead him to join forces with blackbeard just so he can do it <–-- Crazy theory I know just here me out If he wants to stand a chance against dragon he will do so.
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Akainu seem to be corrupted his desire to kill Luffy might lead him to join forces with blackbeard just so he can do it <–-- Crazy theory I know just here me out If he wants to stand a chance against dragon he will do so.
The more I think of this the less sense it makes. Akainu believes in Absolute Justice. He doesn't compromise or equivocate, when he sees a pirate he goes after him. No deals, no exceptions.
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The more I think of this the less sense it makes. Akainu believes in Absolute Justice. He doesn't compromise or equivocate, when he sees a pirate he goes after him. No deals, no exceptions.
However, he isn't above letting a pirate do his dirty work. Case in point: Squardo.
I can see Akainu "teaming" up with Black Beard, only to double cross him later. -
However, he isn't above letting a pirate do his dirty work. Case in point: Squardo.
I can see Akainu "teaming" up with Black Beard, only to double cross him later.I got the impression that was more from Sengoku. Even then, it wasn't really working with Squadro, just manipulating him to turn against WB. BB is going to fight Luffy anyway, so he wouldn't neep to do anything about that. Even then, everything we've seen of Akainu's personality suggests that he wouldn't aid any pirates.
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Well we don't know everything about akainu but I can tell he is obsess with killing dragon and luffy.I can see it coming and he knows that blackbeard can help him do it just think about it.
ONE piece = the superior Manga
FAvorite one piece characters
Shilew, Mr.2, Lucci and luffy.
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Well we don't know everything about akainu but I can tell he is obsess with killing dragon and luffy.I can see it coming and he knows that blackbeard can help him do it just think about it.
Marine obsessed with JUSTICE and killing pirates joining up with the most dangerous pirate of all to take out a mid-level threat?
Makes perfect sense.
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@Cyan:
Marine obsessed with JUSTICE and killing pirates joining up with the most dangerous pirate of all to take out a mid-level threat?
Makes perfect sense.
Dragon is more than a mere "Mid Level Threat"
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I don't think Akainu was really obsessed with killing Luffy, at least not directly. He was the son of Dragon, and a target of opportunity, both of which made him important. But likely not important enough to expend the effort to hunt him down.
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Well I think the time skip luffy will get the job done regardless of akainu's efforts with or without Blackbeard.Luffy is also looking for blood,he witness his brother get murdered right before his eyes.Just think what he is feeling.Akainu probably worrying about it now IMO.
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Well I think the time skip luffy will get the job done regardless of akainu's efforts with or without Blackbeard.Luffy is also looking for blood,he witness his brother get murdered right before his eyes.Just think what he is feeling.Akainu probably worrying about it now IMO.
Luffy will get what job done?
Is Luffy really that angry with the Marines? I'm sure he's upset that Ace died, but Luffy doesn't seem the type to go after the government for revenge. I'm sure he's angry with Akainu, but he has his crew and his dreams.
I very much doubt Akainu is "worrying" about what Luffy wants to do for him. He likely sees anything that brings Luffy within his range to be useful, regardless of motives.
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Akainu wont be worried about luffy's revenge at him at all. First, He thought luffy as plenty weak when he met him last. Second, even if he has mastered haki, he knows how to let haki coated attacks pass through him. like he did with Whitebeard. I think his only worry with regards to Luffy and his crew is their talent for disruption and chaos.
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Akainu wont be worried about luffy's revenge at him at all. First, He thought luffy as plenty weak when he met him last. Second, even if he has mastered haki, he knows how to let haki coated attacks pass through him. like he did with Whitebeard. I think his only worry with regards to Luffy and his crew is their talent for disruption and chaos.
I'm pretty sure Haki attacks can't pass through a logia, unless the manga specifically states that he did exactly that I think we're left to assume that WB didn't use haki. He did the same thing vs aokiji, forget to use haki on his attack.
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Akainu wont be worried about luffy's revenge at him at all. First, He thought luffy as plenty weak when he met him last. Second, even if he has mastered haki, he knows how to let haki coated attacks pass through him. like he did with Whitebeard. I think his only worry with regards to Luffy and his crew is their talent for disruption and chaos.
Haki attacks still hurt him. Whitebeard dropped him with the old one two and he went toe to toe with Vista and Marco and he only had minor slashes on his upper body and face. Akainu will go after luffy and crew if he gets the chance if not he won't bother with them. He is all about business Luffy is a huge threat but no bigger than the fact he has left the grandline lawless and Pirates from all over are causing trouble.
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I hope Luffy kills akainu int the time skip Arcs.This and Mihawk loosing his title is something I'm looking forward to.
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I hope Luffy kills akainu int the time skip Arcs.This and Mihawk loosing his title is something I'm looking forward to.
Your tenses are messed up.
Mihawk will lose his title, its kinda the entire point of Zoro's plot.
Luffy kill Akainu…its not impossible, but from what I recall Luffy hasn't set out to kill anyone. Bouncing bullets back at people might kill someone, but he doesn't aim for it.
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The more I think of this the less sense it makes. Akainu believes in Absolute Justice. He doesn't compromise or equivocate, when he sees a pirate he goes after him. No deals, no exceptions.
remember that guy squard who um iunno kinda STABBED HIS "FATHER" absolute justice my ass. akainu shudda magma fisted him on the spot
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Your tenses are messed up.
Mihawk will lose his title, its kinda the entire point of Zoro's plot.
Luffy kill Akainu…its not impossible, but from what I recall Luffy hasn't set out to kill anyone. Bouncing bullets back at people might kill someone, but he doesn't aim for it.
Do you always have to rain on my parade,LOL just put it this way I want to see Akainu and Mihawk die! MIhawk should lose his title to someone other than Zoro (Shiliew) then Zoro should beat shiliew.It makes Zoro look even more badass IMO.
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Do you always have to rain on my parade,LOL just put it this way I want to see Akainu and Mihawk die! MIhawk should lose his title to someone other than Zoro (Shiliew) then Zoro should beat shiliew.It makes Zoro look even more badass IMO.
Rather than Mihawk die, I d rather see him fake his death, and once zoro has his so called 'revenge' come back and battle zoro in a badass match. Oh and I d like to see zoro slash Mihawk the same way he slashed zoro at the baratie, and sparing his life :D
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i see it more as luffy believes in what Oda believes is true justice. we see that kind of justice in smoker too. justice being what is right, which is not necessarily what is best for the majority, or for a side.
No… If Luffy's primary motivation were true justice, he'd have become a marine not a pirate. He's a bad guy, or at least tries to be occasionally. He stole from the skypieans, (or thought he did) he punched coby and aided in the escape of vicious murderers. That's not justice.
@I:Thus I will repeat myself and say that he will not support a cause, no matter how righteous the fighters of that cause may feel it to be, if he himself doesn't feel that the people fighting it are "good" people.
While I agree with your points about opponents' dreams and blackbeard, I don't think luffy feels obligated to help "good" people any more than he feels a need to stop "evil" people. He refused to fight arlong until Nami asked him for help, the same with Croc and Vivi. He couldn't fight CP9 until Robin stopped trying for self sacrifice and decided to live. He'd have let Bellamy kick his ass without repercussion if Bellamy hadn't dissed Norland's dream.
Luffy fights for three reasons: 1. Dreams of strong willed people. 2. Anyone (good or evil) standing in the path of his own dream. 3. Family/Nakama
Heck, he even released some of the most evil people in the world from Impel Down in furtherance of those goals.
here is an example of how. So yes some villains are given reedeming quaities, does'nt mean they won't be an arc villain. Magellan is a good example.
Perhaps 'antangonists' would be a better term than villains in this case.I'm guessing the Neptune Army will be the good guys because they are in conflict with the New Fishman Pirates- a group that is not aligned with Jinbe(the main good guy fishman)
I'm guessing the Neptune Army will be under royal command.Good points about the semantics of villains vs antagonists. Remember though that the Shandians were in conflict with the good guy skypieans, and ended up allies. So did both sides of the Alabasta civil war. We can have a conflict between the Neptune Army and the NFP while Luffy allies himself with both sides or neither.
Edit: @Coruscation:
Doesn't it seem like written in the stars that Dragon is the one that will lead this final battle, and Luffy will be there simply for his own reasons, whatever they may be at the time, but still make up a mighty commanding presence, summoning up all the allies he will inevitably has and will continue to gather around him? Wouldn't it seem very appropriate to end the series on such a note, too, Luffy fighting side-by-side with his near-endless array of friends and allies, for the sake of the world and for his own reasons simultaneously?
I'd muuuch rather have luffy fight through both the Revolutionary Army AND the WG to achieve his goal. Dragon would make a much more dramatic end villain than ally. There has been some hints of this too, with the potential that it was RA agents who kidnapped fake Robin.
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Good points about the semantics of villains vs antagonists. Remember though that the Shandians were in conflict with the good guy skypieans, and ended up allies. So did both sides of the Alabasta civil war. We can have a conflict between the Neptune Army and the NFP while Luffy allies himself with both sides or neither.
I admit I never thought of that. Yes if the arc has a common target like a 'Crocodile' or an 'Enel' that is very possible.
Hehe we are 1 chapter in and already I am looking forward to this!
@boiga:Edit: I'd muuuch rather have luffy fight through both the Revolutionary Army AND the WG to achieve his goal. Dragon would make a much more dramatic end villain than ally. There has been some hints of this too, with the potential that it was RA agents who kidnapped fake Robin.
The problem with the Revolutionaries being bad guys is the issue of Ivankov and Inazuma and the other candy boys who were actively on Luffy's side in Marineford and training Sanji.
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Hmm, I certainly feel that Dragon will be an ally. I can't imagine him becoming a villain, considering what his motives are – ridding the world of the government's horribly oppressive sides that causes immeasurable suffering to the people all over the world. Luffy fighting against and crushing that kind of ambition would just feel horrible. I think I know where you're coming from, with Dragon possibly being an extreme "ends justify the means" type of guy, but I still doubt it. Especially with Kuma, Ivankov and Inazuma already being allies through-and-through.
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Hmm, I certainly feel that Dragon will be an ally. I can't imagine him becoming a villain, considering what his motives are – ridding the world of the government's horribly oppressive sides that causes immeasurable suffering to the people all over the world. Luffy fighting against and crushing that kind of ambition would just feel horrible. I think I know where you're coming from, with Dragon possibly being an extreme "ends justify the means" type of guy, but I still doubt it. Especially with Kuma, Ivankov and Inazuma already being allies through-and-through.
I've made this argument dozens of times, but I'll say it again. People really underestimate the good that the WG performs. The marines are the only stabilizing force in a pirate riddled world. The WG disallows country against country wars of aggression. Average citizens are univerally supportive of the marines. Sure, they can't intervene against corrupt local leaders, and there are certainly examples by which they overreach, but all in all they are to good guys fighting the bad guys. Unfortunately, they are also required by law to submit to the random, vicious, and petty whims of the Tenryuubito, but that doesn't wipe away all the good they do.
On the other hand, any scene depicting an area controlled by the revolutionaries only shows destruction, pain and death. Is that the sign of a righteous struggle? I really don't know. The motives of both sides of this larger conflict are obscured by the missing century.
Also, I realllllly like the idea of a Sanji vs ivankov and Brook vs Inazuma near end of series fight. That would be excessively awesome. Could Sanji fight tranny version ivankov? Can you picture the face faults? Beautiful….
@ultimateclima:
To clarify, the New Fishmen might not believe is self liberation of slaves. Hammond pointed out that Luffy is like Fisher Tiger when he punched a Celestrial Dragon, not attempting to free slaves.
Camie or any of the slaves that were freed were also not mentioned as part of the list of "good deeds" the Strawhats did, which is only interesting to note because that could mean that slavery isn't important in the New Fishman Pirate's ideology.
Very good point. I also like your analysis of Jinbe.
However, I'm not sure that Hachi has the prowess to be the kind of hero that would follow in the finsteps of fisher tiger. Sure he claimed to be the second best swordsmen at FI, but I don't really believe him. I suppose the possibility of a timeskip powerup is there, but he was pretty weak at shabondy.
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People really underestimate the good that the WG performs. The marines are the only stabilizing force in a pirate riddled world. The WG disallows country against country wars of aggression. Average citizens are univerally supportive of the marines. Sure, they can't intervene against corrupt local leaders, and there are certainly examples by which they overreach, but all in all they are to good guys fighting the bad guys. Unfortunately, they are also required by law to submit to the random, vicious, and petty whims of the Tenryuubito, but that doesn't wipe away all the good they do.
That is all indeed true, but personally I haven't gotten the impression that Dragon is an anarchist*, that he desires to completely eradicate the concept of government. He mainly seems to want to quell the oppressive sides currently present in the WG - mainly derived, seemingly, from their sucking up to nobility. To allow people to follow their own dreams, unhindered by nobles that can turn them into slaves-for-life at a whim and a flick of their wrist or a few simple words. That seems to be his ambition, which quite doubtlessly is a noble one.
I also think it's quite safe to assume that the Gorousei are bad guys, and in it only for themselves - not even for "the greater good". That was made quite clear, IMO, in the scene with the Ohara Head Scholar (forgot his name) speaking to them over a Snailphone. If they weren't ousted from power by the end of the series, allowed to continue sitting on their ivory thrones and rule with an iron grip, it would feel moderately disappointing to me. And it just seems to me like Dragon is the one that would do the ousting.
On the other hand, any scene depicting an area controlled by the revolutionaries only shows destruction, pain and death. Is that the sign of a righteous struggle? I really don't know.
Well, I can't quite recall any of these scenes off the top of my head, but it is of course true that spurring on a revolution will cause a great deal of death and suffering. Dragon himself quite explicitly condemns that side of it, however, necessary though it is, in the scene where he sees Luffy's bounty and is formally introduced to the reader with one of those little information boxes:
"Don't celebrate a victory!!
This is a war."Judging by that, I don't think that Dragon has been depicted as a man who has lost sight of his moral compass in blind chase of a goal. He wants people to be free from oppression; that appears to be his single, great ambition. There is potential for Oda to take it in the direction you speak of, but I don't think that he will.
With all that said, I admit that I've been thinking about it myself, due to one thing that Rayleigh said - "Once you've sailed and seen the entire world, you might just wind up at a different answer from ours…". I interpret this as a possible indication that Luffy and the Strawhats may indeed end up at a different answer than the Roger pirates did - that for all its past and current evils, the WG may be better left standing, and this would then be the justification for why the war that Whitebeard spoke of never actually comes to fruition. I can't help but wonder where the story of the Revolutionaries will be taken if this happens - but that's indeed a possible place for your idea to emerge. But then, the idea of Dragon as the final villain… naaah_,_ so I'll still stick to my initial idea for the time being.
*please don't come down too hard on me if I misused the term, I'm not quite sure whether it actually means "no government".
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No… If Luffy's primary motivation were true justice, he'd have become a marine not a pirate. He's a bad guy, or at least tries to be occasionally. He stole from the skypieans, (or thought he did) he punched coby and aided in the escape of vicious murderers. That's not justice.
While I agree with your points about opponents' dreams and blackbeard, I don't think luffy feels obligated to help "good" people any more than he feels a need to stop "evil" people. He refused to fight arlong until Nami asked him for help, the same with Croc and Vivi. He couldn't fight CP9 until Robin stopped trying for self sacrifice and decided to live. He'd have let Bellamy kick his ass without repercussion if Bellamy hadn't dissed Norland's dream.Luffy fights for three reasons: 1. Dreams of strong willed people. 2. Anyone (good or evil) standing in the path of his own dream. 3. Family/Nakama
Heck, he even released some of the most evil people in the world from Impel Down in furtherance of those goals.
Good points about the semantics of villains vs antagonists. Remember though that the Shandians were in conflict with the good guy skypieans, and ended up allies. So did both sides of the Alabasta civil war. We can have a conflict between the Neptune Army and the NFP while Luffy allies himself with both sides or neither.
Edit: I'd muuuch rather have luffy fight through both the Revolutionary Army AND the WG to achieve his goal. Dragon would make a much more dramatic end villain than ally. There has been some hints of this too, with the potential that it was RA agents who kidnapped fake Robin.
Argh, the problems with the curser are so frustrating! I cannot underline or highlight the parts of your text that I wish to respond to. Please forgive me for any inconvenience. FTR and the sake of clarity, I want to point out that I did not say Luffy would feel obligated to help people he deemed "good," just that he wouldn't help a person, no matter the circumstances, if he didn't feel they were "good." Did I make that distinction clearer?
As far as Luffy ending up fighting Dragon, while it's not outside the rhelm of possibility for Oda to make some moral choices like "justice" ambiguous, he has given some very clear indications that Dragon is to be considered a "good" character in this manga. He has, thus far, never forgotten that the main part of his intended audience is younger, and has kept some things relatively black and white. Some "bad" characters turn good or at the least neutral after being affected by proximity to Luffy, but I have yet to see a "good" guy turn bad unexpectedly when they were clearly indicated to be "good." Unless I am forgetting something–in which case do please correct me.
As for the final war, I think Luffy and the SHs will be swept up whether they wish to be or not, for various reasons, some of which are centered around his dream to be Pirate King, and some by the very fact that he has set himself in direct opposition to the WG. There is just no way they are going to let him fade away with nary an attempt to bring him in.
