Thanks Stephen, it's awesome of you to do this for the OP community.

I'm just sad that my collection of OP raws went up in flames on my old fried hard drive. It's not the same comparing your scripts with the often lousy scans out there.

Hmm…. maybe this project of yours will finally encourage me to go buy the actual volumes out there somewhere...

Dang it, you're encouraging respect to copyright holders. :happy:

One minor clarification, Smoker and Ace didn't fight to a draw, rather they were incapable of harming each other. Fire and smoke are compatible in the sense that they both feed off the same reaction. Ace couldn't hurt smoker with flame and smoker couldn't touch Ace with smoke, so they therefore both separated unscathed.

However, this would work as evidence that Ace lacked the ability to use CoA.

@Chompp:

Finally! Took some time but finally got through the whole thread It was nice reading when I already knew when and what would be revealed later in the manga Some arguments were outright hilarious to read and some were really interesting discussions.

…..................
Don't know if this has any real importance... But in the case where Akainu killed Ace, are people meaning that lava was a natural weakness to fire logia, same as water to Croc and rubber to Ener, when saying that lava smothers fire? Or is it only an attempt to logically explain why Akainu could kill Ace without using the natural weakness against him? Personally I could accept that lava was a natural weakness to fire.

Kudos for making it through the entire thread, especially one as dense as this.

My personal take is to agree with you about how Akainu killed Ace. Lava doesn't burn with a flame but can smother flames by becoming a barrier between the flame and the oxygen needed to feed it. Akainu could therefore kill ace without necessarily invoking CoA.

Edit: @igetownd:

So you're basically saying that Tiger is hurting himself in the end by striking out at the "powers that be".

However, Luffy also uses violence to as a correction device for the corrupt and wicked, wouldn't that hurt his goal of protecting his friends if "the corrupt" label him as "evil" and wage vengeance?

I think the basis of your argument is that Tiger has a race of people to protect, so he should do whatever he can to prevent harm. Using violent action for his sense of justice will backfire because he will be perpetuating the idea that fishmen are inherently violent and dangerous. On the other hand, Luffy is a man who keeps his friends close so he can protect them, but hides friendships he can't protect from the public.

Fisher Tiger's dream is "Freedom/Liberation for everyone."

Otohime's dream is "Peaceful reintegration with surface society leading to equal treatment for her people." So, Otohime's dream would eventually fulfill Tiger's dream as well, at least for fishmen and mermen.

However, by his actions Tiger made Otohime's dream impossible in the short term. He hardened the feelings of fishmen against humans and vice versa. This will lead to retaliation on both sides and would have spiraled into open warfare if Jinbe hadn't sacrificed himself and disbanded the Sun pirates.

Fisher Tiger's enemy is the WG, which everyone at FI views as "humans." Otohime's enemy is the enmity between fishmen and humans. If she (or her daughter) can defeat the hatred between the two races, she will succeed in freeing her people. That's the goal here.

If you really think that the violent destruction of the World Government will lead to freedom and equality for all, then Hodi is the real hero of this arc. The battle lines here aren't human vs fishmen or freedom fighters vs the WG, they're hatred vs reconciliation.

And despite his best efforts, Fisher Tiger spread hate.

@hreinnbeno:

But why is Otohime ideals any better. Even though they get peaceful with the government and are part of the reverie, it has no effect on the freedom of the slaves human and fishmen. There are possibly kings connected to the world government that govern some of the human slaves as well. Peaceful reconcilation would free no slaves. Status que would stay. The only way to free the slaves would be through violence. No peaceful reconcilation would free the slaves, and if it would it would only mean that they would rather use slaves from other races, thus against fisher tigers means.

With reconciliation you make possible a return to the surface and integration with the human population. People who live/work/play together do not view each other as subhumans, which is a prerequisite for the type of slavery practiced by those at the slave auction house.

This kind of cultural shift is the only permanent to end slavery/subjugation of minority populations. Violence may free/revenge some, but they are easily replaced and this hardens the "us vs them" mentality that leads to further retaliation.

If Otohime had succeeded, the fishmen would have moved to the surface, become active members of the World Government, and received the same Marine defense against attack as any other WG nation. It would be a difficult political road to obtain equal treatment, but it is the ONLY road. Instead, fishmen are still ostracized and hated by the public, and the only guard against WG attack was Jinbe's role as a Shichibukai.
@Kisoto:

He would have loved Tiger for wanting others to be free.

Meanwhile Luffy woulda hated him hard for the violence, but I'm not so sure that it's Tiger to blame for that so much as a combinations of the Marines (giving chase) and his own crew that is becoming more and more violent.

It's not the violence that would have pissed off Luffy so much as Tiger's abuse of both his own and Otohime's dream.

And you all see where this is going, don't you? At the end of the arc, Luffy will manifest Otohime's dream by destroying Fishman Island. This will force the fishmen to reintegrate with those on the surface whether they want to or not.

@Kisoto:

And I love Tiger and his ideals. Maybe being a pirate wasn't he best idea for enforcing them, but it still shows that he has good intentions for freedom no matter who you are. Pirates are shunned, but the freest of any kind of person!

He and Luffy woulda gotten along.

I don't mean to pick on you, but I couldn't disagree more. Luffy would kick Fisher Tiger's ass.

People seem to be missing the point here. Nearly every action of Fisher Tiger and the Sun pirates after the slave rebellion has actively hurt his own goals of freedom for fishmen.

By using violence to promote his cause he is inviting the same backlash against Fishmen as Arlong would by slaughtering people. By engaging any Marine ship that comes in their range, he is threatening the WG stability. It doesn't matter that he isn't killing anyone, his level of power is so great that they will be forced to use extreme force against him. This heightening of tension could potentially lead to the complete annulment of the peace treaty between Fishman Island and the WG, which would then lead to the genocide of the entire fishman/merman race. Heck, all the marines have to do is cut down the Tree of Eve to kill the light and food supply for FI, and announce open season on any fishmen or merman who reach the surface.

That violence also inspires the next generation to forgo any peaceful alternative. If violence is the solution to repression and humans are the enemy, then of course the NFP are going to take that to the next step. Tiger's example as a role model is explicitly to blame for Hodi's actions at the present.

Fisher Tiger's half assed blend of limited violence for a revolution is self defeating. Revolutions only end in two ways: peaceful reconciliation or complete annihilation of one side. Fisher Tiger's actions are making peaceful reconciliation impossible, which only leaves alternative #2. Otohime and Arlong both recognize this fact, but Tiger can not. In so doing, he is destroying his own dream, for which Luffy would kick his ass.

@Unrequited:

Luffy was way more interesting than Sanji this chapter. You'd think he'd be the one to show some sort of emotion, despite knowing Jimbei. But instead of running his mouth off he was the calm one, pondering over everything being said. A serious, ambivalent Luffy!?

I agree, of course, but in the end Luffy will still pick sides based on the dream of the princess.

The logical thing for the captain to decide in this instance is for Luffy and crew to pack up their boat and head on to the new world. This was Zoro's intention and now that they will soon be reunited at the Forest and the ship is coated, they can be on their way. Jinbe wants them out of the way and they have no stake in this fight. In fact, Luffy might even sympathize with the NFP for fighting against the WG for their place in the sunlit world.

But the scaredy cat princess is going to man up and fight for nonviolent human/fishmen reconciliation (Isn't that something a scaredy cat would fight for?) and luffy will help her. In part because he promised to protect her until she makes it back home (in time for dinner) but more because fighting for the dreams of others is what he does.

@Don:

By showing them that and forcing them to betray their own believe, they create an inner dilemma in those people, which they can use to control them just as they like.
Once robbed of your ideology and thoughts(by making you yourself deny it), you are for them now puppets which you can direct in the way you like it without having to fear that they would someday make a revolution.
Because once you broke their will\belief you no longer have to fear that they could get out ofg it themselves.

Interesting depiction Don Q.

Put that way and the NFP seem considerably more insidious than any other groups of enemies yet depicted in OP. Enel had his own thought police and required devotion, but he didn't attack people's self image in as deep a way as these Arlong disciples. The various megalomaniacs, (Arlong included) simply demanded obedience. The NFP on the other hand require strict ideological devotion.

I like the parallels between degrading the conformist strategy of the dead queen with the enforcement of a religious taboo. This fishman power movement isn't just political any more, it's a cult.

Best chapter in a couple of months, really. Finally we've gotten beyond exposition of this arc into the meat of it.

I love it that Oda's humanizing Arlong without necessarily justifying the extremes he went to to get back at those who repressed him in his youth. We also have the two conflicting reform movements: do you fight violently against repression, revenging the atrocities committed against your people with similarly heinous acts? Or do you submit to authority, protest nonviolently, and try to reform from within the current abusive power dynamic. Considering all that's going on in the Mideast these days, this theme is tremendously topical…. but as a universal social dynamic, maybe any time period could offer examples of this dichotomy.

The NFP are getting fleshed out too, despite their limited screen time. By choosing the late queen as their scapegoat, they blame the "uncle toms" within their culture for preaching reconciliation. By turning on their own, they show they harming the human "enemy" is more important than improving the welfare of their people. Sadly, this makes most people easily stereotype them as "terrorists" or the like, and assume that they are inherently evil, while dismissing the societal factors that led to that build up of rage and anomie.

I'm truly hoping fisher tiger gets fleshed out as a complex character. Does he fight to free slaves out of moral indignity? revenge? sympathy for their plight? Or is it more a luffy level "i won't stand by to see dreams destroyed" kind of thing? I'm looking forward to the fights he gets into with the Queen. It'd be like being a fly on the wall in a confrontation between Malcolm X and MLK.

Best panel of the chapter goes to Luffy sipping tea on page 14. I love that face that he gets when he is deciding his moral stance on a complicated issue. It must be the anticipation, because once he is decided, he ends up doing ridiculous things in what then seems a sudden and unplanned manner. That same empty expression presaged everything from picking fights with god to declaring war on the World Government. I suppose I envy his conviction while admiring the subtlety of his process.

Hmmm... new AP theme I'd better update the avatar....

Yay, a new chapter to entertain me on a snow day here in wisco. Also, the broad themes of the arc are coming into focus:

Shirahoshi is an even weaker version of camie: a girl who has dreams but has never even made the slightest attempt to follow them. So luffy doesn't like her, but he does pity her and thus encourages her to rebel against her restrictions and follow her dreams. She'll be visiting the surface by the end of the arc, that's a promise.

I also love how luffy makes no claim to virtue. Is he bad? That's your call. People always seem to forget around here that he's an antisocial miscreant of a pirate… and revels in it.

Similarly, now that Luffy is helping shirahoshi go on an adventure, damn the consequences, he'll of course be blamed for her kidnapping. The entire poseidon army is going to be mobilized to take down the strawhats, leaving them completely vulnerable to whatever scheme hodi and Vander are planning.

Speaking of whom, they are being set up as a too stereotypical of villains for my taste. Mad man and supremecist partnering up, with the typical variety of sidekicks to fight the rest of the crew. I'm currently hoping that Hodi's crew end up like the General class zombies of Moria's, and are matched up against the poseidon army in the end.

It is hard though to argue against hodi's assertion that the poseidon army lacks racial pride. They were formed only to search out Vander Decken and to protect the FI royalty. Why weren't they defending the mermaids from pirates? Why are they so reliant on pirate protection? It is somewhat pathetic for a supposedly strong race. The seahorse and carp advisers are almost guaranteed to be corrupt too. They are the real rulers and the king does as they command. What a wussy royalty.

The crew power ups so far are looking impressive. It's nice that everyone can hold their own now against entire armies worth of enemies. Nami and Usopp used to run away from scrubs when they didn't have one of the three monsters at their back. Now they can kick ass in awesome fashion. Got to love it.