World Government Corruption?

[boiga]

I'm aware that threads about world government motives have been done to death. However, given recent revelations and the manner in which another thread was recently hijacked by those debating this subject, I believe the community desires a rehash on this topic. So, please forgive me for beating a dead horse.

At issue: What are the motives behind the world goverment policies?

Background: [hide](from wiki) The World Government is affiliated with roughly 170 countries from around the world. Those member countries retain autonomy, that is to say, the countries run their own internal affairs (though the World Government does sometimes meddle), but cooperate with the World Government for massive international relations.

History: The WG was formed 800 years ago after a "lost century" during which time an ancient civilization with horrific weapons was destroyed.[/hide]

Premise: The main goal of the WG is to maintain the status quo. They balance the 2 nongovernmental Powers off each other and stop megalomaniacs from establishing multi-island empires (atleast in the 4 seas and the first half of the grandline). They desire, above all else, to stop anyone from bringing back the lost weapons of the ancient civilization, the destructive power of which are equivalent to a nuclear arsenal.These are fairly lofty goals. Should someone bring back the ancient weapons (pluton, poseidon, etc.) it would cause massive, worldwide destruction and loss of innocent life.

Also, if the WG were not around, there would be no one to turn to if your nation gets attacked by pirates, most of whom are the raping/pillaging type. They should also get credit for staying out of local disputes as seen by their lack of intervention in Alabasta. The actions by the world government greatly benefit the average citizen of world by encouraging peace and prosperity.

Evidence: [hide]Aokiji was on his way to stop Crocodile, a megalomaniac with dreams of an empire. There was also a failed marine attack on Arlong, another megalomaniac. Atleast they try to stop the bad guys.

The islands visited by the strawhats have been universally prosperous with the exception of those with LOCAL management problems (Alabasta economic woes were cause by Croc, Drum Island's were caused by Wapol)[/hide]

Caveat: The world government in following these goals have no respect for the human rights of those they consider threats.

-Still, most of the atrocities of justice we have witnessed CAN be justified if you consider the threats to world peace that they eliminated.

Examples: [hide]Tom DID aid and abet the WG's most wanted state terrorist and did have the ability and knowhow to construct a weapon of mass desturction. If someone in our world gave a bomber jet to a terrorist and also had in their possession the blueprints of a nuclear weapon, they too would likely be convicted in a puppet court and executed.

The Buster Call of Ohara can be explained by the need to keep WMD's out of the hands of terrorists or megalomaniacs. Plenty of people in the modern world would willingly sacrifice a known number of civilians to prevent the equivalent from happening on Earth.

It could also be said that Akainu attacked the refugee boats without the approval of command. Those in power never subject their own forces to War Crimes tribunals due to the bad PR, so Akainu would not have been reprimanded.[/hide]

Admittedly, there is a high rate of low-level corruption in the World Government. This is inevitable in any authoritarian system with no checks and balances. It goes to the WG's credit that when a corrupt officer is stopped, (usually by luffy) they are prosecuted. (eg. Morgan, Crocodile)

So, is there any evidence that the World Government is corrupt on an institutional level?

The only unknown possibility for this is why they are keeping such a tight lid on information regarding the Lost Century. Unless Gol. D. Roger and Dragon discovered some kind of evil motive in their research of that time period, I can see no way that they are justified in their revolutionary ideals. For the average citizen, the WG is ardently fighting for their well being.

Summary: [hide]
WG Pro's: -They maintain security and economic prosperity for the large majority of OP citizens.
-They stop terrorists and power mongers from obtaining weapons of mass destruction.
-They don't oppress the nations they serve and allow them total internal self rule.

WG con's:
-They are rife with corruption at local levels.
-They are willing to accept the loss of civilian life for the sake of world stability.
-They recognize no human rights in their pursuit of those they consider threats.
[/hide]

[Denimjo]

I have to say that I agree completely. When you consider that One Piece is told from the point of view of someone who idolizes pirates (Luffy), of course the Marines are all going to look less-than-stellar from their point of view.

The problem I think is that the average citizen of One Piece tends to look at the world in black and white. I.E. Marines are good (or "white") and pirates are bad (or "black"), or vice versa. They don't take into account all the various shades of grey.

I could always sympathize with poor Smoker, since he seems to genuinely want to restore peace and order, but that's got to be a bitch to try to accomplish when his superiors aren't exactly the most truthful sort of people in regards to their own failings.

[Rollo T]

Yeah, you've definately got it right. If the story was told from the WG POV then they would seem like much better guys. It's Marines like Morgan and Mouse dude from Arlong Arc that make them look bad. But on the other end, you got pirates like Kuro and Krieg who make pirates look bad. I know that sounds like an alliteration, but the One Piece point of view is that being a pirate is less about commiting crimes and more about being free.

As for sacrificing some people to save World Peace, that only sounds bad since the WG is considered the bad guys. I believe in the Star Trek movie The Wrath of Khan, that the captain said "the needs of the many outweight the needs of the few.". While that's not a theory I particularly agree with, there is a lot of logic and morals behind it. The government does WANT to kill innocent citizens, it's just they have to or the whole world falls into chaos.

[Zulen]

The government could use a Gomu Gomu no Pistol up the ass, complete with lots of screaming.

[Darkariel]

I get what you mean they are a necessary evil

But still I think if there where more people like Smoker, Tashigi, Vivi, Ao Kiji, Dolton, Coby and others like them the World wouldn't need W.G.

Spandam being the Leader of a W.G. secret assasination group didn't help much in viewing them was good (The guy was a complete Megalomaniac) also they let a guy like Wapol rule a country

About the Ancient Weapons we can only assume what they are (there isn't anything sure about what they do)

Pluto blueprints did seem like it was a ship

I think the Blank Century History will give all answer

Since the main heroes are pirates and W.G. keeps pursuing them, I say they are Corrupt

If Oda wanted them to be good guys them he would probably made Luffy a Marine just like Garp wanted (at least that's what I think to the moment)

[Deicide]

After last chapter, I do think there's more to the World Government than it meets the eye. I mean, so far we had only seen its corruption, but now they are the line of defense against those four emperors. I would trust those pirates (except maybe Shanks) even less than the World Government.

But we also need to know Dragon's motives. It would be cool if, after all this time, we find that the government was indeed the good guys (with bad seeds within it and ruling it), and Dragon is just an evil bastard bent on revenge or something.

This last chapter was amazing to shake our perception of the world and the story. Now we have no idea how it will continue. Will Luffy take a side? Or will he defeat all major powers of the world? How will these powers interact and shape the story that is yet untold? Wow, so many questions…

[boiga]

@Darkariel:

Spandam being the Leader of a W.G. secret assasination group didn't help much in viewing them was good (The guy was a complete Megalomaniac) also they let a guy like Wapol rule a country)

Actually, I'm not sure about what would have happened if spandam had succeeded in obtaining the actual blueprints for the pluton. His desire was to build pluton and to use it to against the WG's enemies, but he only ever obtained approval for the appropriation of the plans. It could be that spandam was doomed to fall on the sword of his own ambition and the elder stars would have decided his ambition itself was a threat to stability, even if he had succeeded.

Also, I consider them "letting" wapol rule something in their favor actually. It means they don't interfere in local governance. If they claimed the power to pick and choose the leaders of all 170 countries, they would be an empire and not just a militaristic international peacekeeping force.

@Darkariel:

About the Ancient Weapons we can only assume what they are (there isn't anything sure about what they do))

I believe crocodile said at one point that the weapon would give him the power to wipe an entire island off the map, hence the nuclear comparison.

I'm actually rather hoping that Oda avoids a "good guy" vs "bad guy" wrap up to this entire saga. In real life, people who aren't motivated solely by greed universally believe that they are fighting for the Good Guys. Both sides of warfare, politics, and marital disputes generally believe they are righteous in their convictions and that the other party is pure evil. If luffy ends up fighting for liberty and freedom and his WG enemy is fighting for security, justice and order, both will be fighting for "good" causes and who is "right" in the end will be decided by victory.

[zerocustom1989]

I totally agree with this theory, and still believe that the HQ was built over grave site of the capital of the old civilization. The Hole obviously created by one of the weapons.

This actually sounds a whole lot like the US government, except without the whole blank history thing and ruling over multiple count…. then again....

[Aldrich]

@boiga:

Actually, I'm not sure about what would have happened if spandam had succeeded in obtaining the actual blueprints for the pluton. His desire was to build pluton and to use it to against the WG's enemies, but he only ever obtained approval for the appropriation of the plans. It could be that spandam was doomed to fall on the sword of his own ambition and the elder stars would have decided his ambition itself was a threat to stability, even if he had succeeded.

I'm not too sure about that either. During Franky's flashback when Spandam reports his discovery to the 5 elder stars the old men clearly look suspicious, like VA Scarface later on. I think they know the dangers of such weapons too well, as the only ones who know the true history and weren't too enthusiastic to let such an incompetent buffoon handle it. On the other hand, you've got to wonder why they wanted Nico Robin alive, if not to forcefully have her tell what she knew about the ancient weapons location. If they were just worried about the weapons being discovered they could have just killed her.

Otherwise I agree with the rest of your points. The WG definitly aren't all that bad.

[Darkariel]

@boiga:

Actually, I'm not sure about what would have happened if spandam had succeeded in obtaining the actual blueprints for the pluton. His desire was to build pluton and to use it to against the WG's enemies, but he only ever obtained approval for the appropriation of the plans. It could be that spandam was doomed to fall on the sword of his own ambition and the elder stars would have decided his ambition itself was a threat to stability, even if he had succeeded.

Also, I consider them "letting" wapol rule something in their favor actually. It means they don't interfere in local governance. If they claimed the power to pick and choose the leaders of all 170 countries, they would be an empire and not just a militaristic international peacekeeping force.

I believe crocodile said at one point that the weapon would give him the power to wipe an entire island off the map, hence the nuclear comparison.

I'm actually rather hoping that Oda avoids a "good guy" vs "bad guy" wrap up to this entire saga. In real life, people who aren't motivated solely by greed universally believe that they are fighting for the Good Guys. Both sides of warfare, politics, and marital disputes generally believe they are righteous in their convictions and that the other party is pure evil. If luffy ends up fighting for liberty and freedom and his WG enemy is fighting for security, justice and order, both will be fighting for "good" causes and who is "right" in the end will be decided by victory.

I agree with what your saying but I still wonder why the W.G. is so keen in keeping a led on the Black Century

There are lots of theories I could think about

As far as what Crocodile said, well Crocodile couldn't haven know for certain, he doesn't know how to read Poneglyphs and I doubt he was alive when the Ancient Weapons where used

So he could be wrong about the power to wipe an entire island off the map

Specially since the blueprints to Pluton seem to be a kind of ship (only if it's something like a Buster Call ship)

[ChopChopCannon]

@Denimjo:

I have to say that I agree completely. When you consider that One Piece is told from the point of view of someone who idolizes pirates (Luffy), of course the Marines are all going to look less-than-stellar from their point of view.

Actually, I think One Piece is told from a neutral point of view, 'cos if it was told from Luffy's point of view then they would have got to Alabasta and defeated Croc without all the stuff inbetween, and the same with Drum and Wapol.

If someone in our world gave a bomber jet to a terrorist and also had in their possession the blueprints of a nuclear weapon, they too would likely be convicted in a puppet court and executed.

That's only because we live in a world that lacks proper heroes. Also, pirates and terrorists are two completely different things.

[Taleran]

there isn't enough info about what they are hiding yet to fully judge, but from the fact that they are going to such lengths to hide it might show something

[Gadus]

@boiga:

They desire, above all else, to stop anyone from bringing back the lost weapons of the ancient civilization, the destructive power of which are equivalent to a nuclear arsenal.These are fairly lofty goals. Should someone bring back the ancient weapons (pluton, poseidon, etc.) it would cause massive, worldwide destruction and loss of innocent life.

Caveat: The world government in following these goals have no respect for the human rights of those they consider threats.

I would agree for the most part, but since this is a manga, I would argue that there could exist a better alternative to the current system that the WG has. I think that caveat is a big reason why we see the WG as "corrupt."

@boiga:

Still, most of the atrocities of justice we have witnessed CAN be justified if you consider the threats to world peace that they eliminated.

The Buster Call of Ohara can be explained by the need to keep WMD's out of the hands of terrorists or megalomaniacs. Plenty of people in the modern world would willingly sacrifice a known number of civilians to prevent the equivalent from happening on Earth.

The WG offered little diplomacy or discretion in their destruction of Ohara. Likening it to this real world analogy, it would be something like dropping an atom bomb on North Korea because they possess WMDs–without diplomacy, without discretion.

The Buster Call's goals seem to be very much like the use of the Ancient Weapons. As it was said,

@boiga:

I believe crocodile said at one point that the weapon would give him the power to wipe an entire island off the map, hence the nuclear comparison.

Which essentially seems like what the Buster Call did to Ohara.

Having said all that, I think that there could exist a better system than the WG, at least in theory. This isn't the real world, so we aren't limited by the constraints of practicality, I guess. As such, there could be a system of government, unified and altruistic, that could exist in One Piece. I'm going out on a limb, but such a system might have existed in the period during the "lost century" and was destroyed by the current "corrupt" WG.

This, in addition to the handful of local corruption of WG positions that we have seen the SH encounter, would mark the WG as the "bad guy."

Yeah, it makes sense that the easiest way to deal with the Ohara problem was to erase it from the face of the planet, and for all practical reasons, it is a good move by the world government. But this is shounen manga, where extremism in the face of adversity apparently is a vice (at least for the WG). So all those innocent lives lost make the readers scream bloody murder, and the general structure of the WG is forever pegged as bad.

Were we to one day find out that the WG established itself 800 years ago out of disorder and chaos in a society ruled by the strongest and most ruthless "survival of the fittest" world, we would probably cheer the WG to no end. However, I have a feeling rather that the WG did something a little more negative than that–something will be revealed that makes themselves the ultimate bad guys--and that's why it's okay for Luffy to go against the WG like he is.

Maybe the WG isn't really that corrupt, but right now at least, it seems the WG is the bad guy.

[ITSALION]

To borrow from Winston Churchill: the World Government are "a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma: but perhaps there is a key."
And that key is the Blank Century. Who knows? Perhaps the Gorousei (or their predecessors, more likely) destroyed the unnamed empire for good reasons. Or maybe they started out with a good reason, but lost their course. Or perhaps they're just plain fanatics with a fixation on justice. Maybe they were out for revenge. Who can really say for sure?

[Falcon]

All I know is that the World Government has too much power and is thus corrupt, dangerous, and any other similar label you want to put on it. They don't have jury trials (they even poke fun at jury trials with their "guilty" jury), they have the power to make a citizen a criminal by decree, and all too often that power is misused, even by relatively low level marines (Axe-hand Morgan for example). Each marine is a king within his own jurisdiction, even if it means defying his superiors manytimes (Ao Kiji, though it was the right thing to do, still let Robin go in defiance of his orders. Smoker left his station to pursue a single pirate at his own whim. The judge over Tom revoked Tom's penalty at his own whim just so that Tom could build a train). Honestly, you know the system is whacked when they convict people, give them a death penalty, and then let them off so they can build some important infrastructure. That means either that the death penalty was wrong and they knew it or that they're letting a criminal worthy of death get off scott free (Tom was never restricted in any way that was noticable) just so the government can profit. Where's the justice? Its just the arbitrary will of which ever petty official you happen to come across.

Then you've got even worse cases, like that marine captain that was being bribed by Arlong. I find it difficult to believe that all the men under his command were either unaware or also being bribed. Is marine discipline so harsh that the enlisted personnel (not officers, they all seem to do whatever they want) follow orders no matter how objectionable? Did no one think to report suspicious activity?

[Angel emfrbl]

Well all you can do is look at the current facts… The WG came into power at the end of the blank century. A powerful race had just fallen to a powerful enemy and disappeared from all traces known to mankind. The war they were fighting MUST have been brutal since the so-called island buster weapons were built.

But as others have pointed out... Everything isn't so fine. This is like the UN of today where all the countries get together at once, discuss and decide things... This is the WG and what they's prefer you to do.

Things got hot when Clover started talking to them about who the enemy might be, the response - Shoot Clover quick. This seems odd, as everyone pointed out. Maybe they are the WG. Or maybe they don't want the world to know who these Ancient enemies were. Lets presume they aren't the WG... If they are still alive, wouldn't that bring them to the surface or make people seek them out? For the sake of the world, the WG would then be the heroes, keeping things quiet.

Then there are the Ds... They fight for moral beliefs, fate, dreams, hope... Why are they fighting? We don't know. What we do know is they don't take sides on their own, that they eventually decide.

-We have seen two that joined the marines, one quit for his own reason...
-Another is leding a revoloution
-3 are pirates... One trying to be the king, another to join the shichibukai (main balance) the last is trying to make another prate king.

One thing - lots of people presume the logic is they are descendants of the race... Just as I said lets not consider the WG to automatically be the ancient enemy, what if the Ds were? It sounds odd, but everyone presumes the ancient war that civilisation fought were 'good' and their enemy 'bad'. We know from marines, it ain't all black and white. The enemy may have been the 'good' and the civilisation 'bad' for all we know.

Another thing about the WG, a good thinking group doesn't give away their motives. The WG, if they are corrupt are keeping everyone unaware of what their actions led to. These guys have years of experience between them at controlling the world by now... Why are they worried about the ponegylphs, as others have said, this is sensitive info.

What if you found out the group you were serving weren't so nice...
-How would the world react?
What if you heard that everything was a lie?
-How the world take it?

There would be a split in the countries. Some would question the evidence of the Poneglyphs, some would accept it and others would say its a lie. Some countries would remain loyal, others strive against it. You see problems? There are 170 countries... It might end up to be another war like the one 800 years ago.

[Falcon]

People who fight against an evil enemy don't usually obliterate their triumph from the history books.

They may have wanted to kill Clover so quick because they knew that if they found out they'd be killed too (since presumably soliders as far down as a CP unit wouldn't know the void history and would be killed if they found out).

[ero_seinen]

@boiga:

WG Pro's: -They maintain security and economic prosperity for [[B]gas companies] the large majority of OP citizens.
-They [[B]try to] stop terrorists and power mongers from obtaining weapons of mass destruction.
-They don't oppress the nations they serve and allow them total internal self rule.

WG con's:
-They are rife with corruption at local levels.
-They are willing to accept the loss of civilian life for the sake of world stability.
-They recognize no human rights in their pursuit of those they consider threats.
[/hide]

That's remembering me a country in the real world… Except that the first part is what they say they want to achieve... But is not what is happening due to their actions...

By the way I agree with you for most of the things. Well in there very large majority, the marines are people that think they are doing a good job for the sake of the world. I mean disinformation is a weapon (like in most of armies) to make them spirit and motivation stronger.

Does power brings corruption, I don't believe it, but it helps to show the lacks of willpower to certain persons. Somebody like aokiji, smoker, garp, coby, vivi... have a lot of willpower and can resist to corruption. That's why I think we will see vivi sooner or later teaming with dragon to deafeat the WG, (doesn't that remember you starwars??? a princess leading the rebels fro the sake of the world, and help by a pirate (Ian SOLO) and his ship (Falcon millenium)... ^^ ).

In the end I can see vivi ruling the world in a all new guvernement base on democraty, and nobody will know that it is thanks to luffy (or else luffy won't be free and couldn't be a pirate anymore...

[blueblip]

The problem is when you consider the scope and size of the WG, its not really possible to identify it with a moral standpoint. The organization is made of tens of thousands upon thousands of individuals, with a myriad of smaller groups and organizations within itself. The Marine, the Ciper Pols, each of the 180 countries (which themselves have hundreds and hundreds of orgs), and God knows what else (accounting, research, construction, media, blah). And don't forget it's jurisdiction extends to the Red Line as well. How can you pin down something as arbitrary has a moral standpoint for something this huge?

Furthermore, when you end up with something this big, you can't really run it along the lines of 'this action is good/bad/evil' anymore, simply because of the number of lives and things (financial or otherwise) at stake. It's possible to do so, but then again, nothing in our world comes close to the power the WG holds in the OP world (no, not even current America). Then remember, while all cultures have a shared core set of moral and ethical rules, morality depends heavily on where you're from. If the WG is composed of 180 countries, it would be very difficult to take an absolute moral standpoint without alienating some of its members. I mean, Wapol and Vivi's father are/were both members of the WG council, and they are moral opposites. They would never reach an agreement on an issue if they argued the moral and ethical ramifications of any action.

It think that's why the WG (and the Marines) have adopted the 'absolute justice' ideaology. They have a pre-written set of laws to which they adhere to and enforce, thus eliminating the need for moralization. That they leave to the various country rulers and individual citizens. Is it illegal and wrong for Wapol to hoarde a country's doctors all for profit? Not the WG's concern, as that is not an issue of law, but an issue of ethics. Also, it gives the WG the added plus point of staying out of an individual country's private affairs, thus avoiding any critisim about over-stepping it's authority.

Another mistake that is made is to compare the WG to a country. If anything, the WG is similar to our world's UN, albeit the WG weilds far more influence and power in the OP world. In our world, we use the UN as a forum for different countries to settle disputes through discussion (supposedly), and in overly serious national conflicts, as a global police force. Theoretically, the UN can send it's troops into any nation even against said nation's will, so long as there is a general consenus (not that this will ever happen). In any event, our current society allows the UN to act as a police force for the rest of the world. However, should an individual country such as America try to fulfil this role, it is met with a lot of hostility because we do recognize the right of any single country to decide what is appropriate or not for any other country. And before I get bashed, this extends to any country, England and the Faulklands, Bosnia, Nazi Germany etc. It doesn't matter how 'morally right' a government is at any time (meaning not just with reference to a single event, but it's moral compass in general).

Similarly, the WG attempts to police the world. But, unlike our UN, it is allowed more power and authority, mainly because the pinnacle power of the WG is composed of 5 individuals with no apparent affiliations except to the World Government alone, while the UN's in composed of 5 countries, each with an agenda for their country's benefit (naturally, nothing wrong with that…really). Since its influence and power is greater, it can take more drastic decisions, and execute them, such as in Ohara. Yes, some decisions (especially Ohara) are unnecessarily servere, but if it does abide by an 'absolute justice' credo, then by that way of thinking, Ohara was guilty of the WG's most criminal act. Applying morality to the Ohara incident (for an example) could have led to severe complications later. Most are what-if scenarios, "what if the Oharans are trying to revive lost weapons" or "what if an evil pirate sacks Ohara and learns how to read poneglyphs" etc., but that is how any government, country ir global, decides its policies, through what-if scenarios, or as they call it, predictions (colloquially called educated guesses).

So, no, the WG doesn't fall into the category of 'evil' as its actions have swung over the entire moral spectrum (the minute they heard of Arlong, they dispatched a ship, while Nezumi was at the same time accepting bribes). They are not even zealots (although there are individuals, like Spandam and Akainu), but they are sticking to a set of laws they developed, and which are accepted worldwide (we don't know of any countries that are anti-WG; all the opponents are individuals like Luffy and Dragon...and pirates in general). But what about the issue of corruption, you say? Well, for an organization to be corrupt, it would have to be evil, ne? Also, corruption is a very, very subjective/individual thing. The highest authorities could be clean as clean, but the low end reps could be corrupt to the bone, or vice-versa. So no, you cannot say the WG is corrupt as well. Plus, I really can't see the Gorousei (from what we've seen of them) taking bribes. they harp about absolute justice so much it'd be the most OOC thing that could ever happen.

EDIT: Is anyone acutally going to read this? I'd be sooo happy if you did :wub:. Cookies too.

[Mr. All Sunday]

Wow. That was an excellent summary of the World Government, kudos.

And I completely agree with you, the World Government's actions are justified, and they do an excellent job keeping the peace. To the average Joe, the WG are pretty great. I think until Dragon shows up again, and perhaps shows the reasons why he's revolting, we can say that the WG is a pretty good, if not flawed and a tad over destructive, government. It's jackasses like Spandam and Croc that make the government look bad.

[Darkariel]

Just read Professor Clover's theory about the W.G. and Ancient Civilization

Also when Professor Clover was to said the name of the Ancient Kingdom the Gorousei shout "Kill him"

This makes me think Professor Clover's theory is probably right

This is my personal opinion

And was long was people use good arguments to contradict this I'm satisfied

P.S. - But I probably won't change my mind until the Ultimate Truth is revealed (By Oda of course)

[RobLucci]

I agree with blueblip for the most part, unless we found out the people who founded the wg were corrupt, then I would consider corrupt at the core, but not alot of the people.

[FireFistAce 0]

@Darkariel:

Just read Professor Clover's theory about the W.G. and Ancient Civilization

Also when Professor Clover was to said the name of the Ancient Kingdom the Gorousei shout "Kill him"

This makes me think Professor Clover's theory is probably right

This is my personal opinion

And was long was people use good arguments to contradict this I'm satisfied

P.S. - But I probably won't change my mind until the Ultimate Truth is revealed (By Oda of course)

Look at this: http://groups.msn.com/onepiecemangav-3/volume12.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=2347

Now look at this:
http://groups.msn.com/onepiecemangav-3/chapter395.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=9285

You tell me that's not the same island.

[Eudaemonium]

It's not the same island.

That was just to be cheeky, but seriously I don't tihnk you can make a judgement either way. There are some minor similarities, but also many differences. For instance behind… the old guy from the whale... there looks liek a big cliff with a forest on top, whereas in Clover's sketch there isn't. It's possible that it's the same island, but also possible it isn't.

That said, raftel surely contains major revelations for all.

[Ne0]

As I posted in here…Is the WG evil?
The corruption in One Piece is a top-down model, meaning the top level(Gorosei) is the most corrupt organization.

@boiga:

The Buster Call of Ohara can be explained by the need to keep WMD's out of the hands of terrorists or megalomaniacs. Plenty of people in the modern world would willingly sacrifice a known number of civilians to prevent the equivalent from happening on Earth.

Ah so you would justify obliterating every country suspected of doing nuclear research?

@boiga:

They maintain security and economic prosperity for the large majority of OP citizens.

I'd choose privacy over security any day!

@boiga:

They don't oppress the nations they serve and allow them total internal self

Nope, they just leave that to others in their direct protection(eg. wapol, tenryubito, CipherPols, etc.)!

@boiga:

It could also be said that Akainu attacked the refugee boats without the approval of command. Those in power never subject their own forces to War Crimes tribunals due to the bad PR, so Akainu would not have been reprimanded.

So atleast you've agreed that Akainu is corrupt.

@boiga:

For the average citizen, the WG is ardently fighting for their well being.

Yes & that's only because…@boiga:

they spun the facts to make themselves look good.

[boiga]

Sigh… I really didn't mean for this old thread to be bumped, but oh well. @Ne0:

As I posted in here…Is the WG evil?
The corruption in One Piece is a top-down model, meaning the top level(Gorosei) is the most corrupt organization.

By what evidence are the Gorosei corrupt? They haven't done a single thing that blatantly goes against the public good. People in OP world seem generally happy with the Marines, so what makes them corrupt?

Ah so you would justify obliterating every country suspected of doing nuclear research?

Exaggerating someone's point of view as a method of demonizing their argument doesn't really help the discussion. But to reply to the point you are alluding to, in regards to nuclear technology the cat's out of the bag already.

However, there are some technologies that if made public knowledge could rapidly lead to the extinction of the human race. Most people would consider the dispersal of that knowledge (what the oharans were shortsightedly pursuing) to be considerably worse than the violent repression of that knowledge (what the WG did.)

I'd choose privacy over security any day!

That's you. Most people would prefer a reasonable balance between the two and shift towards security if there is a threat large enough to justify it. After all, Freedom and Privacy are pretty worthless if you're getting shot at every day.

A modern government attempts to give a maximum amount of freedom to its citizens while maintaining a baseline of security. With the great threat to world security caused by the Age of Pirates, certain crackdowns on the rights of Pirates is certainly understandable and does not insinuate corruption at any level.

[joekido the Second]

One Piece aviods being an archtypical black and white good guy/bad guy story where the World Government is your bad guy while the Pirates is your good guys. One Piece is very colorful.

Many people likes Star Wars because of that but done right but for some reason, Oda had done it better.

At least we should be thankful that One Piece is not like Inheritance Cycle where it's super cliched, sterotypically black and white.

[Ne0]

@boiga:

However, there are some technologies that if made public knowledge could rapidly lead to the extinction of the human race. Most people would consider the dispersal of that knowledge (what the oharans were shortsightedly pursuing) to be considerably worse than the violent repression of that knowledge (what the WG did.)

That's you. Most people would prefer a reasonable balance between the two and shift towards security if there is a threat large enough to justify it. After all, Freedom and Privacy are pretty worthless if you're getting shot at every day.

Well…................

From Stargate :
We believe in a systematic understanding of physical world through observation, experimentation, through argument and debate; but most of all FREEDOM OF WILL. I will not compromise the fundamental tennents of my devotion in order to preserve it

[wolfwood]

Moving the Hannyabal argument from the tournament thread.

My other argument is that ID has a good communication system which implies the ID officers knows well what happens in the world. So hannyabal knows probably what the celestial dragons are. And how they are. Isn't it well known that they are also fucked up?

Well even without Luffys attack on the nobles he was still a wanted man for crimes ranging from attacking marine officers to attacking the WG courthouse. And even if you dont agree with all the WGs policys you cant just shut down a neccesary goverment facility on account of that.

Tha WG who decide who is the worst in the world also chooses to work with what they call the scum on earth : the 7 warlords. Now isn't that enough to question their actions? It can't be that hannyabal doesn't know the WG isn't a saint. Or at least he should have doubts. And if you have doubts and also know that some innocents can end at ID how can you still sleep well and continue doing these things? Hannyabal chooses to ignore what happens around him. He built his own reality where his actions are all justified and normal. And that makes him evil.

Why would a political move made to insure the balance of the world i.e. creating the shichibukai be grounds to question whether or not wanted men from around the world who are sent to impel down are truly guilty.

A prison guards job really isnt to question whether or not these people have broken the law, which all of the have. Now if you think the laws are whack then thats something to take up with the court not our poor little warden.

And as for your last question about the innocene of the denizens of ID, then lets see first we have Crocodile-genocidal maniac who without a doubt deserves all thats coming to him. Then theres Daz Bonez-Cruel remorseless hitman oh yeah he's a keeper, Jimbei-attack on marine HQ should warrant a prison sentance dont ya think? Then theres Iva and Inazuma-Revolutionaries who seek to topple the goverment yeah i dont think i need to say anymore about that. And lets not forget Mr.3 3 counts of attempted murder and Buggy blew up half a town and ransacked it sounds like prime candidates for a correctional facility. Did i miss anyone?

[Jarhead]

Wow. You're really upset.

[Vanessa]

If you think the Impel Down guards are bad guys then you might as well say every Marine grunt we've ever seen is a bad guy.

That just isn't the case, and using exceptions(Tom) as the basis for a point really isn't a smart thing to do.

[MagneticMonkey]

@wolfwood:

Moving the Hannyabal argument from the tournament thread.

Well even without Luffys attack on the nobles he was still a wanted man for crimes ranging from attacking marine officers to attacking the WG courthouse. And even if you dont agree with all the WGs policys you cant just shut down a neccesary goverment facility on account of that.

And we all know luffy never attacked the marines just for the lulz. But here you have a point your beloved warden Hannyabal can't know luffy is innocent.

Why would a political move made to insure the balance of the world i.e. creating the shichibukai be grounds to question whether or not wanted men from around the world who are sent to impel down are truly guilty.

I'm talking about a government who is so greedy of power, loves dictature, knows they don't have the power to achieve it their goals and decide to cooperate with what they call themself the worst scum on earth to stay out of trouble. They know they won't last long if the shichibukai weren't helping them.

A prison guards job really isnt to question whether or not these people have broken the law, which all of the have.

He may not question the orders but that doesn't save him from being evil. You're dancing around the main issue here :)

Now if you think the laws are whack then thats something to take up with the court not our poor little warden.

Torture, killing, starvation, extreme heat and stuff like that is normal? Even when knowing that some of the prisoners may really be innocent? We may discuss here if the OP world doesn't know what human rights are :)

And as for your last question about the innocene of the denizens of ID, then lets see first we have Crocodile-genocidal maniac who without a doubt deserves all thats coming to him. Then theres Daz Bonez-Cruel remorseless hitman oh yeah he's a keeper,

They deserve all to be imprisoned for life. But not tortured and/or killed.

Jimbei-attack on marine HQ should warrant a prison sentance dont ya think?

And yet they tortured him to force him into joining the war. And Hannyabal has to know that which makes him evil.

Then theres Iva and Inazuma-Revolutionaries who seek to topple the goverment yeah i dont think i need to say anymore about that. And lets not forget Mr.3 3 counts of attempted murder and Buggy blew up half a town and ransacked it sounds like prime candidates for a correctional facility.

And how does being a revolutionary qualifies you to land in a torture hell? You can't ignore the obvious. ID is fucked up. The officers know that and live with it everyday. It became normal to them but that doesn't save them from being evil. They are! They kill people. They torture prisoners for the WG or just to get informations. And they have no proof at all that the people they kill/torture are really dangerous murders or not. Besides they also know who screwed the WG is…

Did i miss anyone?

Yeah you didn't deliver the proof that everybody in ID is a blood firsty murder.

[wolfwood]

@MagneticMonkey:

And we all know luffy never attacked the marines just for the lulz. But here you have a point your beloved warden Hannyabal can't know luffy is innocent.

Well does he really qualify as innocent? I mean a crime is a crime no matter the intentions behind it, i mean Luffy thought Nezumi was being mean to Nami so he beat up him and his squad does that make him innocent?

I'm talking about a government who is so greedy of power and dictature but knows they don't have the power to achieve it but still cooperate with what they call themself the worst scum on earth to stay out of trouble. They know they won't last long if the shichibukai weren't helping them.

Or you could say a goverment that wants to avoid a bloody war at all cost, even if it means making a deal with the devil. Theres two sides to each coin.

He may not question the orders but that doesn't save him from being evil. You're dancing around the main issue here :)

Yeah killing is wrong and bad, but its sometimes neccesary. I Cant condem him as evil for treating the worst criminal in the world harshly anymore than i could call a police man evil for shooting a gun weilding criminal.

I mean its not like he's kicking kittens, he's dealing with the most most dangerous criminals in the land.

Torture killing starvation extreme heat and stuff like that is normal? Even when knowing that some of the prisoners may really be innocent? We may discuss here if the OP world doesn't know what human rights are :)

Except when your sent to impel down youve been down the villain road more than once, its not a first strike prison its for the three major strikes kind of people. Do people deserve a second chance sure? a third maybe, but after that its of to the maximum security prison, and i dont wanna hear no whining about how cruel it is.

They deserve all to be imprisoned for life. But not tortured and/or killed.

And yet they tortured to make him change his decision. And Hannyabal has to know that which makes him evil.

People who betray regimes usualy have a far worse fate than being beaten upside the head with a big stick til they change their mind.

Besides it has a purpose, they need him to gurante a victory and the continued existance of the marines i.e. the only thing keeping pirates from plundering at will.

And how does being as revolutionary qualifies you to land in a torture hell? You can't ignore the obvious. ID is fucked up. The officers know that and live with that everyday. It became normal to them but that doesn't save them from being evil. They are! They kill people. And they have no proof at all that the people they kill are really dangerous murders or not. And they also know who screwed the WG is…

Hmm well you are trying to topple the world as you know it through an armed rebellion resulting in the loss of millions of lives as country after country falls. Personaly i think thats a no brainer.

Oh yeah ID is pretty fucked up, but then again it has to be to deal with the kind of clientel it has. They cant be asked to pussy foot around the most brutal criminals in the world like they would if they were dealing with white collar criminals. As for the WG being evil, eh im more of the persuasion that i think they genuinly care for the good of the world, but has a few bad apples. And alot of hard decisions to make.

Yeah you didn't deliver the proof that everybody in ID is a blood firsty murder.

No but i did point out that not a single one of them there is what you could by any stretch of imagination call innocent.

[freedom]

@MagneticMonkey:

Yeah you didn't deliver the proof that everybody in ID is a blood firsty murder.

Well, isn't this why Impel Down has multiple levels. The level a prisoner is put on is supposed to be reflective of the crimes they committed.

Level 1 was actually a bit confusing, because I hadn't re-read it yet, and right now my memory of it is that the prisoners were locked up, but somehow some of them were in the needle forest. I'm wondering if you just stayed in your cell if you'd be capable of avoiding the torture like in Level 2 the beast hell. You're pretty clear of torture if you stay in your cell of Level 2. As the levels get deeper, the prisoners are more "evil" and sinister.

The rest of your post is mixing up a political system with its individual enforcers of said system. And in between all that, there's also some naivety about the dynamic of the WG, The Warlords, and Pirates IMO.

The situation isn't so simple as to what you seem to be suggesting. Just using our kind-hearted Luffy as an example. Yes, he does the right things (from his POV) to help his friends and family. But his execution of said deeds is definitely a criminal act. There are many ways to do things, and if Luffy even tried to do them the right way first, I'd give you a little more credit on your points, but when it's all said and done. Luffy's a pirate, and totally goes against the system, regardless of who is enforcing this system. People like Hannyabal are simply trying to protect the world from these sorts of rebels.

[MagneticMonkey]

@wolfwood:

Well does he really qualify as innocent? I mean a crime is a crime no matter the intentions behind it

Absolute justice!
Luffy has something magical. He somehow know when guys are really evil. This is a complete different discussion as luffy isn't exactly a normal human in the OP world.

Or you could say a goverment that wants to avoid a bloody war at all cost, even if it means making a deal with the devil. Theres two sides to each coin.

The government doesn't wantto avoid a war the government/marines started the war. They will use every chance they get to take down pirates cause they want to rule and everyone who doesn't play by the rule is taken down.

Cant condem him as evil for treating the worst criminal in the world harshly anymore than i could call a police man evil for shooting a gun weilding criminal.

Does policemen shoot handcuffed prisoners in cells in your country? In ID people just die in cells getting attacked by beast guards or after torture.

I mean its not like he's kicking kittens, he's dealing with the most most dangerous criminals in the land.

ID is in the middle of the calm belt. So why doesn't he just keep them in cells? Why torture? Why starvation?

Except when your sent to impel down youve been down the villain road more than once, its not a first strike prison its for the three major strikes kind of people. Do people deserve a second chance sure? a third maybe, but after that its of to the maximum security prison, and i dont wanna hear no whining about how cruel it is.

Where does pirates get a second chance in one piece? Why was buggy imprisoned? Look at level 1. What did this guys do (which is so bad like mass murdering of civilians or etc…) to land in that horrible place?

People who betrays regime usualy have a far worse fate than being beaten upside the head with a big stick til they change their mind.
Besides it has a purpose, they need him to gurante a victory and the continued existance of the marines i.e. the only thing keeping pirates from plundering at will.

The fucked up WG is the only thing saving the world from plundering pirates? There is no way another governement can be created which is not corrupted, which doesn't follow absolute justice and which does fair trials?

Hmm well you are trying to topple the world as you know it through an armed rebellion resulting in the loss of millions of lives as country after country falls. Personaly i think thats a no brainer.

We know little details on how the revolutionaries work. And on the other hand we might discuss how people in the OP world can improve their government when this one has a torture/killing Prison and goes against everyone who oppose to them with cruelty? There are too many corrupted people at the top of the WG…

As for the WG being evil, eh im more of the persuasion that i think they genuinly care for the good of the world, but has a few bad apples.

The gorousei just decided to hunt luffy and take him down while knowing he never attacked the marines and even helped them by stopping crocodile from hijacking a whole country. A few bad apples….
Aikainu... Sengoku... etc... etc...

A government that relies on such methods just to survive isn't a good one. And people who are actively supporting such a governement by also doing evil aren't good. So is hannyabal. I repeat myself but this:

Isn't an excuse. Hannyabal knows what happens in the world and who is imprisoned but ignores it or doesn't question it and continue to support torture and killing. He is fully aware of what he does and also has contact to the world out there. I can't say the random guards in ID who are only guarding the entrance of ID are evil since they not have the informations Hannyabal has and don't kill and torture humans.

@freedom
The government supports corrupted celestial dragons who shoot randomly people when they don't bow down. And i'm naive when i say that the WG is evil? Another hint: why does the gorousei ordered to kill Prof. Clover just because he knew too much about the void history? That's all i need to hate them. Do they randomly introduce laws or are the citizen actually involved in the process?

[wolfwood]

@MagneticMonkey:

Absolute justice!
Luffy has something magical. He somehow know when guys are really evil. This is a complete different discussion as luffy isn't exactly a normal human in the OP world.

Isnt it practicly at the heart of this discussion, Do good intentions absolve one of guilt?

They can only look at what actions a prisoner has taken, and in Luffys case they are pretty severe.

The government doesn't wantto avoid a war the government/marines started the war. They will use every chance they get to take down pirates cause they want to rule and everyone who doesn't play by the rule is taken down.

You make taking down pirates sound like a bad thing. They saw an opportunity to rid the world of the worst pirate (from the WGs point of view) of all and took it, cant say i see anything terrifyingly bad about that.

Does policemen shoot handcuffed prisoners in cells in your country? In ID people just die in cells getting attacked by beast guards or after torture.

I dont even think Sweden has a prison for that kind of prisoners, i doubt weve had to deal with that kind villainy since what the last century?

ID is in the middle of the calm belt. So why doesn't he just keep them in cells? Why torture? Why starvation?

Cause healthy prisoners would just plan a riot and break out? Keep em broken and you wont have that problem.

Where does pirates get a second chance in one piece? Why was buggy imprisoned? Look at level 1. What did this guys do (which is so bad like mass murdering of civilians or etc…) to land in that horrible place?

Id go out on a limb and say that it was because of his 15 years of piracy, that and the stupidity of charging into a Grandline marine base.

The fucked up WG is the only thing saving the world from plundering pirates? There is no way another governement can be created which is not corrupted, which doesn't follow absolute justice and which does fair trials?

Technicaly its the marines that enforce their laws, but im pretty sure that the average joe is pretty damn happy that he has an organised police force and goverment to turn to when the pirates are raiding his store. Im sure it could be exchanged for another regime tho i doubt it would result in ID being shut down. But anyhow the WG falling to the pirates wouldnt help anybody

We know little details on how the revolutionaries work. And on the other hand we might discuss how people in the OP world can improve their government when this one has a torture/killing Prison and goes against everyone who oppose to them with cruelty? There are too many corrupted people at the top of the WG…

We know that they push their belifes with a sword conquering one country at the time, so does that make the rebells as evil as the current goverment?

The gorousei just decided to hunt luffy and take him down while knowing he never attacked the marines and even helped them by stopping crocodile from hijacking a whole country. A few bad apples….
Aikainu... Sengoku... etc... etc...

He's attacked them on atleast 2 occasions before the 5 stars were even aware of him. And besides he's a pirate i.e. a criminal they dont need any other reason to go after him.

[MagneticMonkey]

Why is being a pirate a crime? I you just have a ship and a pirate flag claim to be a pirate and they will imprison you. Is that normal? I don't think so. You are guilty when you go against laws every citizen has voted. And if it has been proved that you are guilty there is no need to torture you.
You ignore that the government do evil things and just say "from the law point of view luffy is a criminal because every pirate is a criminal". But you don't go one step further and you don't question the motives behind the government.
If you don't do that and just look at the laws yeah random people claiming to be pirates are the worst scum on earth. This is a bad way to judge people. And the governement just do that. And hannyabal also. He has the possibilies to inform himself on what's going on around him. He is in charge of that Big prison and he just decide to turn off his brain and harm people. Luffy is kind. I believe he would have been sent to ID for taking down 2 shichibukais knowing how the WG judge people. But they are not interested in why these 2 shichis were taken down they are only interested in themself. That's also how hannyabal arguments.

And i think my point is easy to understand.

[wolfwood]

@MagneticMonkey:

Why is being a pirate a crime? I you just have a ship and a pirate flag claim to be a pirate and they will imprison you. Is that normal? I don't think so. You are guilty when you go against laws every citizen has voted. And if it has been proved that you are guilty there is no need to torture you.
You ignore that the government do evil things and just say "from the law point of view luffy is a criminal because every pirate is a criminal". But you don't go one step further and you don't question the motives behind the government.

Cause one out of every thousand pirates could be a Luffy, just some schmuck who's not quite clear on what it means to be a pirate. Then the rest range from Buggy who is comparativly harmless but still has next to no scrouples, to Don kreig who will kill you jack your shit and then use it to kill the next guy. And most pirate fall somewhere in betwenn these two. You cant base a law around a possible exception.

And these people dont vote, all these countries still seem to have kings. So whatever his highness decides is what shall be passed as law.

If you don't do that and just look at the laws yeah random people claiming to be pirates are the worst scum on earth. This is a bad way to judge people. And the governement just do that. And hannyabal also. He has the possibilies to inform himself on what's going on around him. He is in charge of that Big prison and he just decide to turn off his brain and harm people. Luffy is kind. I believe he would have been sent to ID for taking down 2 shichibukais knowing how the WG judge people. But they are not interested in why these 2 shichis were taken down they are only interested in themself. That's also how hannyabal arguments.

And i think my point is easy to understand.

Luffy is kind, but then again Luffy has commited countless crimes. It all goes back to the you cant pass a sentance based on the intentions or the character of the accused. And lets face it, intentions aside no one that we know of has been sent to impel down without ample reason.

But what do you suggest that Magellan, Hannyabal, and the rest do instead of carrying out the sentances passed on the prisoners?

[MagneticMonkey]

@wolfwood:

Isnt it practicly at the heart of this discussion, Do good intentions absolve one of guilt?

It depends on how you define good intentions. If it's fighting against corrupt agents of the WG trying to screw peoples life then luffy shouldn't indeed feel any guilt (from my definition of guilty). If you take the screwed up view of the WG then luffy is guilty and never did anything good.

They can only look at what actions a prisoner has taken, and in Luffys case they are pretty severe.

If they can't inform themself on who they have in their ranks then their situation is even worse than i thought.

You make taking down pirates sound like a bad thing. They saw an opportunity to rid the world of the worst pirate (from the WGs point of view) of all and took it, cant say i see anything terrifyingly bad about that.

I'm a huge fan of Aokiji for example. I absolutely can't pardon absolute justice. Not everything in the world is black and white.

I dont even think Sweden has a prison for that kind of prisoners, i doubt weve had to deal with that kind villainy since what the last century?

I think it's good for your country. Do they use ID methods? If no why are you supporting this prison?

Cause healthy prisoners would just plan a riot and break out? Keep em broken and you wont have that problem.

So they are so lazy that they decide to use violence to keep everyone in their cells?

Technicaly its the marines that enforce their laws, but im pretty sure that the average joe is pretty damn happy that he has an organised police force and goverment to turn to when the pirates are raiding his store. Im sure it could be exchanged for another regime tho i doubt it would result in ID being shut down. But anyhow the WG falling to the pirates wouldnt help anybody

WB actually protects a lot of islands from rampaging. He is what the WG defines as the worst on earth and yet we never saw him doing something evil. The WG on the other hand…

We know that they push their belifes with a sword conquering one country at the time, so does that make the rebells as evil as the current goverment?

Yeah pretty much. But again there might be revolutionaries who don't kill meaningless people just for the sake of revolution.

He's attacked them on atleast 2 occasions before the 5 stars were even aware of him. And besides he's a pirate i.e. a criminal they dont need any other reason to go after him.

That's why i said they're fucked up. They stop thinking after reading "Monkey D. Luffy a pirate". What has he done. What happened. Who is he? Why does he attacks the WG? Questions like that doesn't matter so the WG isn't fair at all.

@wolfwood:

Cause one out of every thousand pirates could be a Luffy, just some schmuck who's not quite clear on what it means to be a pirate. Then the rest range from Buggy who is comparativly harmless but still has next to no scrouples, to Don kreig who will kill you jack your shit and then use it to kill the next guy. And most pirate fall somewhere in betwenn these two. You cant base a law around a possible exception.

You have to prove that luffy can be put into a small category of pirates who just do good things. And that the majority of pirates out there just kill and rampage. And of course you can make a law which doesn't just say "being a pirate is a crime" but also defines what a pirate is with clear points saying what sentence you will become if you kill rampage attack countries rape etc… And for the sake of god ID needs to close. My speculation is that after the current arc ID will be history.

And these people dont vote, all these countries still seem to have kings. So whatever his highness decides is what shall be passed as law.

Which is bad? :)

And lets face it, intentions aside no one that we know of has been sent to impel down without ample reason.

Hmm bon-chan disagree :)

But what do you suggest that Magellan, Hannyabal, and the rest do instead of carrying out the sentances passed on the prisoners?

Stop the killing/torture learn how to guard prisoners and stop fighting each others to become the next chief.

[MagneticMonkey]

This post is deleted!

[Vanessa]

So wait…you're labeling the World Government in its entirety as evil because of things like like guards at Impel Down, the place which houses the most dangerous prisoners, being rough on them.

Then you go and say "prove to me Luffy is in that small category" even though practically all the islands the Strawhat Pirates have been to attest to that while stating Newgate isn't bad because "never seen him do anything evil" even though how he does the example you gave is done through fear and intimidation.

You yourself said things aren't simply black and whit yet what you're doing is just that.

Oh and this one statement of yours caught my attention:

And for the sake of god ID needs to close. My speculation is that after the current arc ID will be history.

So with this you're either supporting an entire release or the deaths of all prisoners within Impel Down.

The former makes you an idiot while the latter makes you a hypocrite.

[MagneticMonkey]

@Vanessa:

So wait…you're labeling the World Government in its entirety as evil because of things like like guards at Impel Down, the place which houses the most dangerous prisoners, being rough on them.

Then you go and say "prove to me Luffy is in that small category" even though practically all the islands the Strawhat Pirates have been to attest to that while stating Newgate isn't bad because "never seen him do anything evil" even though how he does the example you gave is done through fear and intimidation.

This isn't about hannyabal being evil anymore? When in one little sentence said the wg is evil it was an error. The WG does evil things. That's what i meant. Sorry for that. Are you saying that fear and intimidation are also evil things which puts WB in the same category as the government who does evil things? Or what is the point.

So with this you're either supporting an entire release or the deaths of all prisoners within Impel Down.

I rephrase ID as it is now needs to be closed. Which doesn't imply a mass release of all the prisoners. Why isn't it assumable to have fair trials and prisons without torture killing and a power hungry staff?

The WG is corrupt. The WG supports absolute justice which actually means death to innocents just to take down some people they don't like. The WG labels investigations about the void century as one of the worst crime people can commit. The WG actively supports slavery. My list of what the so great WG actually does.

[wolfwood]

@MagneticMonkey:

It depends on how you define good intentions. If it's fighting against corrupt agents of the WG trying to screw peoples life then luffy shouldn't indeed feel any guilt (from my definition of guilty). If you take the screwed up view of the WG then luffy is guilty and never did anything good.

Not talking about his conscience, im talking about what a court would base its verdict on. And saying Luffy was on the side of good when there's no testimony for it just wouldnt fly.

If they can't inform themself on who they have in their ranks then their situation is even worse than i thought.

Dont quite follow you, are you suggesting that they should look at intentions like oh luffy was trying to save his friend okay then lets forgive him for invading and wrecking Enias Lobby?

I'm a huge fan of Aokiji for example. I absolutely can't pardon absolute justice. Not everything in the world is black and white.

Absolute justice is neccesary exactly because the world isnt black or white, if it was they could just look for the bad guy mustache and wicked grin, blow them up and be done with it and Akainu wouldnt have to blow civilians up to be certain.

I think it's good for your country. Do they use ID methods? If no why are you supporting this prison?

Back when we had a king for a ruler i know we used torture, and much worse than that what ID uses. And i support it cause theyre dealing with people who can and would kill you in a heart beat if they got an opportunity

So they are so lazy that they decide to use violence to keep everyone in their cells?

Nah its more like they value the lifes of their employes more than that of the condemned criminals on deathrow.

WB actually protects a lot of islands from rampaging. He is what the WG defines as the worst on earth and yet we never saw him doing something evil. The WG on the other hand…

Think Vanessa cover that pretty well.

That's why i said they're fucked up. They stop thinking after reading "Monkey D. Luffy a pirate". What has he done. What happened. Who is he? Why does he attacks the WG? Questions like that doesn't matter so the WG isn't fair at all.

Would be a pretty chaotic world if the authorities couldnt act before they had established beyond a shadow of a doubt that he was a criminal.

You have to prove that luffy can be put into a small category of pirates who just do good things. And that the majority of pirates out there just kill and rampage. And of course you can make a law which doesn't just say "being a pirate is a crime" but also defines what a pirate is with clear points saying what sentence you will become if you kill rampage attack countries rape etc… And for the sake of god ID needs to close. My speculation is that after the current arc ID will be history.

I could just post a list of every pirate crew weve seen, and you would see that its pretty much only Luffys crew(cept Zoro) who's what you would call nice. Heck even Shanks crew who's generaly friendly has no qualms about blowing someones brains out.

And thats just needlessly complicated, outlawing piracy works just fine and those who still become pirates know what theyre getting into.

Which is bad? :)

Depends on the king.

Hmm bon-chan disagree :)

Bon-chan wanted for a whole laundry list of offences.

Stop the killing/torture learn how to guard prisoners and stop fighting each others to become the next chief.

Well theyre apparently doing a pretty good job guarding them since only one person has escaped so far.

[prox]

Not sure anyone mentions this before

After a long while thinking, well he can cover his body with Mr. 3's candle wax, if he does that magellan will be kicked high

[Vanessa]

@MagneticMonkey:

This isn't about hannyabal being evil anymore?

I'm going by the title of this topic, so no it isn't just about Hannyabal.

When in one little sentence said the wg is evil it was an error. The WG does evil things. That's what i meant. Sorry for that.

Alright then, them doing evil things I never argued against.

Are you saying that fear and intimidation are also evil things which puts WB in the same category as the government who does evil things? Or what is the point.

Yes. In general One Piece is in a gray area. There is no absolute good or evil in the grand scheme of things.

Now when you start going into specifics while it's still in that gray area it starts to lean more towards one or the other. Like how for the most part pirates like Luffy aren't the norm or how marines or World Government employees like Nezumi and Spandam respectively aren't the norm as well.

Most pirates are out there to do whatever it is they want without consequences or regard for the general populace's safety, and most marines and people within the World Government I am sure joined because they genuinely want to help make things better.

I rephrase ID as it is now needs to be closed. Which doesn't imply a mass release of all the prisoners.

Why isn't it assumable to have fair trials and prisons without torture killing and a power hungry staff?

They do have fair trials; Enies Lobby isn't the only courthouse out there. Django had a trial for his crimes during his coverstory, and regardles of how hilarious it was that still shows that they are indeed out there.

How exactly is the staff power hungry? Hannyabal is the only one out of them who's shown any signs of wanting to move up, and even then when push comes to shove that man tried his hardest to prevent the criminals form getting away. And Magellan, the very person who has the position he wants, acknowledges Hannyabal as the only one worthy of it.

I fail to see the problem.

[Zkaiser]

@prox:

Not sure anyone mentions this before

After a long while thinking, well he can cover his body with Mr. 3's candle wax, if he does that magellan will be kicked high

Thats not what this thread is about. It should be named. Justice in One Piece.

[MagneticMonkey]

@wolfwood:

Not talking about his conscience, im talking about what a court would base its verdict on. And saying Luffy was on the side of good when there's no testimony for it just wouldnt fly.

Ah smoker can prove that the SHs saved alabasta. But it doesn't interest some corrupted idiots in charge….

Dont quite follow you, are you suggesting that they should look at intentions like oh luffy was trying to save his friend okay then lets forgive him for invading and wrecking Enias Lobby?

Ennies lobby was a shame to the WG.

Absolute justice is neccesary exactly because the world isnt black or white, if it was they could just look for the bad guy mustache and wicked grin, blow them up and be done with it and Akainu wouldnt have to blow civilians up to be certain.

I value every life. I don't share your world views. You're basically saying that's it's ok that innocent people die to protect a secret which seems to terrify the WG. What can it be? Maybe another horrible thing they did?

Back when we had a king for a ruler i know we used torture, and much worse than that what ID uses. And i support it cause theyre dealing with people who can and would kill you in a heart beat if they got an opportunity

What is the difference between a sadistic murder and someone who torture people because he actually believes someone is evil and use it as excuse?

Nah its more like they value the lifes of their employes more than that of the condemned criminals on deathrow.

if i recall correctly there are only on level 6 prisoners at deathrow or having a life sentence.

Would be a pretty chaotic world if the authorities couldnt act before they had established beyond a shadow of a doubt that he was a criminal.

you're saying that guantanamo is a good example and such prisons should be used everywhere because "fair trials" are actually not productive? Absolutely horrible.

I could just post a list of every pirate crew weve seen, and you would see that its pretty much only Luffys crew(cept Zoro) who's what you would call nice. Heck even Shanks crew who's generaly friendly has no qualms about blowing someones brains out.

Try it with the gold roger crew.

Depends on the king.

so you showed yourself one big flaw in the system.

Bon-chan wanted for a whole laundry list of offences.

Since when is someone with a list of offences officially unable to recognize if someone was imprisoned for being bad or if it was for no reasons? That argument doesn't work.

Well theyre apparently doing a pretty good job guarding them since only one person has escaped so far.

Yeah they are excellent in breaking peoples will to live. They are professional killers.

@Vanessa:

Yes. In general One Piece is in a gray area. There is no absolute good or evil in the grand scheme of things.

Now when you start going into specifics while it's still in that gray area it starts to lean more towards one or the other. Like how for the most part pirates like Luffy aren't the norm or how marines or World Government employees like Nezumi and Spandam respectively aren't the norm as well.

Most pirates are out there to do whatever it is they want without consequences or regard for the general populace's safety, and most marines and people within the World Government I am sure joined because they genuinely want to help make things better.

I absolutely agree. At the end my statement still stands "The wg does evil things". And even with all the good guys they have in their staff they're unable to stop slavery? Sengoku the one who is at the top of the marines doesn't question things and told Saul to stop thinking about what the WG ordered etc…
This thread actually started in the tournament section when i said that arlong and hannyabal are evil. That was the beginning of all this. Just wanted to inform where this all started :)

How exactly is the staff power hungry? Hannyabal is the only one out of them who's shown any signs of wanting to move up, and even then when push comes to shove that man tried his hardest to prevent the criminals form getting away. And Magellan, the very person who has the position he wants, acknowledges Hannyabal as the only one worthy of it.

I had the feeling noone ever had any problem with hannyabal constantly claiming he wants to become the chief warden. It might be a bad deduction though.

[MagneticMonkey]

This post is deleted!

[wolfwood]

@MagneticMonkey:

Ah smoker can prove that the SHs saved alabasta. But it doesn't interest some corrupted idiots in charge…

Okay, so he has one good deed on his belt for all to see, but does that make up for his other crimes.

Ennies lobby was a shame to the WG.

That could be argued, but it still was a valuable asset to them.

I value every life. I don't share your world views. You're basically saying that's it's ok that innocent people die to protect a secret which seems to terrify the WG. What can it be? Maybe another horrible thing they did?

If i could id have it so that noone ever died, but life isnt that simple. And if i had choose betwenn saving a many thousands of people at the expense of a houndred then yeah id probably pick the least casulaties. And if they go to such lengths to guard whatever they found out then i just assume its something dangerous.

What is the difference between a sadistic murder and someone who torture people because he actually believes someone is evil and use it as excuse?

One is dealing out a punishment for a crime that person has commited and been sentenced to by a judge.

if i recall correctly there are only on level 6 prisoners at deathrow or having a life sentence.

might be so, i dont really remember. Just seems like a prison of no return.

you're saying that guantanamo is a good example and such prisons should be used everywhere because "fair trials" are actually counter productive? Absolutely horrible.

Nope, but what i am saying is that you could capture him first and then give him a trial not go through it backwards. And its not like he was just suspected of anything, Luffy was already a pirate of note there shouldnt be any more reason needed to bring him in to custody.

Try it with the gold roger crew.

Im sure old Roger sunk plenty of ships in his time, and appears to have had some pretty bloody brawls with Whitebeard.

so you showed yourself one big flaw in the system.

Never said i was pro-monarchy.

Since when is someone with a list of offences officially unable to recognize if someone was imprisoned for being bad or if it was for no reasons? That argument doesn't work.

Thought you meant Bon Kurei was innocent which he's not. And if your talking about Iva then were back at he/she/it is a revolutionary.

Yeah they are excellent in breaking peoples will to live. They are professional killers.

Damn fine prison guards atleast.

[MagneticMonkey]

@wolfwood:

Okay, so he has one good deed on his belt for all to see, but does that make up for his other crimes.

Crimes? Which would be defending himself from attacking marines?

If i could id have it so that noone ever died, but life isnt that simple. And if i had choose betwenn saving a many thousands of people at the expense of a houndred then yeah id probably pick the least casulaties. And if they go to such lengths to guard whatever they found out then i just assume its something dangerous.

So we agree that they do evil things?

One is dealing out a punishment for a crime that person has commited and been sentenced to by a judge.

And at the end the 2 are killing people. Which is imo not good. Killing the murderer won't bring back his victimes.

Nope, but what i am saying is that you could capture him first and then give him a trial not go through it backwards. And its not like he was just suspected of anything, Luffy was already a pirate of note there shouldnt be any more reason needed to bring him in to custody.

Yeah you can capture pirates before sending them to a trial. But torturing them before isn't good regardless if they are guilty or not.

Im sure old Roger sunk plenty of ships in his time, and appears to have had some pretty bloody brawls with Whitebeard.

If they just love to fight without involving innocents lifes, does it means the WG should interfere because in WBs or GRs crew people were injured?

Damn fine prison guards atleast.

The guards being the best at what they do isn't an argument against my statement that Hannyabal is evil or at least actively supports evilness :)