I mean unless you were refering to how both of them are orgin stories and as such probably overlap in some ways
Marvel Movies Thread - Holy Shitballs
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@wolfwoof:
Saw Iron man 3. And i was pretty disapointed. Not a bad movie but not matching up to my expectations
Would've been better if the film had been scaled down a notch, and gotten rid of some of the plot induced stupidity
The action scens were nicely put together, the plot twist was obvious, the subplot was unneccesary, and well RDJ is still fun to watch
Well I don't know about you but the movie was pretty damn great to me when I saw it yesterday IMO. However, I will admit that there are a couple of things that I find awkward in the movie but overall it was freaking good.
! Especially that Big ass Iron man army vs Extremis army at the end! :D
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[hide]To really nitpick i thought it was weird how he was dragging his armor thorugh the woods when he is a master inventor, with an arc reactor in his chest, he easily could've powered the suit to close up again, activate the radio and had one of his 41 other iron man armors come and get him. I get that it's supposed to be how he doesn't need the armor to be a hero and all. Just thought it was strange how the guy who later on made weapons out of scraps couldn't manage to activate his own comlink with the entire armors worth of parts and a power souce at his disposal.
Same when he was tied up at Killian's place. he never once thought to send away for his massive army of sentient robots to just fucking level the place[/hide]
But y'know that's just nerdy nitpicking. Still bothered me a bit
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The Mandarin has no vendetta against tony. … Most of these claims seem extremely subjective. You clearly have a preference of Mandarin
! Tony had attacked and dealt blows to the terrorist organizations in the first movie, that were run by "The ten rings." the conclusion we were supposed to draw is that, even if Mandarin had a broader agenda with the US, he DID have some beef to settle with Tony, and chose to act on it once Tony called him out, given that he attacked almost immediately after that. Once Happy was in critical, Tony made his big public declaration of revenge, and shortly after, his home was attacked. The movie framed it to be the work of the Mandarin.
! Tony made it personal, and Mandarin took the invite… if it was just because Tony called him out, or in repayment for what Tony did in the first movie, we were clearly going to find out later. That's how it was presented and it then begged the question "Was Happy targeted intentionally? Did this guy have something against Tony? Was it coincidence? A bigger plan Or was it just because Tony called him out?" and so forth. The timing of one of Tony's friends being hit then Tony himself right after, and such.
! Then nope, red herring, it was the dweeb underling all along. Nevermind that it was all set up in the first movie and now the Ten Rings setup is complete nonsensical throw-away...
! While yes the movie made it clear that Killian was going to be a thing from the start, that setup could have still simply led to him turning to the Mandarin or providing him with weapons tech... same way Tony himself was supplying weapons originally. Then it just sort of ended up being a rehash instead. -
@wolfwoof:
I mean unless you were refering to how both of them are orgin stories and as such probably overlap in some ways
OOooh in the same way that one Swamp Thing movie influenced Batman Rises…
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@wolfwoof:
Do you have any examples of what they lifted from begins?
Cause it's been a long time since i watched any of the batman movies
http://www.collegehumor.com/video/5922674/deja-view-iron-man-vs-batman
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@RobbyBevard:
! Tony had attacked and dealt blows to the terrorist organizations in the first movie, that were run by "The ten rings." the conclusion we were supposed to draw is that, even if Mandarin had a broader agenda with the US, he DID have some beef to settle with Tony, and chose to act on it once Tony called him out, given that he attacked almost immediately after that. Once Happy was in critical, Tony made his big public declaration of revenge, and shortly after, his home was attacked. The movie framed it to be the work of the Mandarin.
! Tony made it personal, and Mandarin took the invite… if it was just because Tony called him out, or in repayment for what Tony did in the first movie, we were clearly going to find out later. That's how it was presented and it then begged the question "Was Happy targeted intentionally? Did this guy have something against Tony? Was it coincidence? A bigger plan Or was it just because Tony called him out?" and so forth. The timing of one of Tony's friends being hit then Tony himself right after, and such.
! Then nope, red herring, it was the dweeb underling all along. Nevermind that it was all set up in the first movie and now the Ten Rings setup is complete nonsensical throw-away...
! While yes the movie made it clear that Killian was going to be a thing from the start, that setup could have still simply led to him turning to the Mandarin or providing him with weapons tech... same way Tony himself was supplying weapons originally. Then it just sort of ended up being a rehash instead.! You don't think that's reaching a little bit. Isn't it possible Ten rings was just a nod to the fans and this conclusion that you're drawing is really what you expected and not what the movie even meant to imply. The movie was well written but it still suffered a lot from stating a lot things that should have been implied for the sake of the audience. Subtley was not used when it came to character motivations. If the Mandarin had a beef with Tony why wasn't Tony or Stark Industries involved with any of the 8 bombings he carried out? Like I said Iron Man and Stark are not mentioned in any of the videos. Iron Man isn't a target until he makes himself one and even then the lesson isn't for Iron Man it's for everyone else to show that The Mandarin can attack anyone anywhere and no one, not even Iron Man is safe. Tony is a plot point in the Mandarin's story not even a main character.
! I completely disagreee with the Happy thing and do not thing it begged any questions. He went very far out of his way to follow that extremis agent. If happy was the target the Mandarin would have mentioned that in his video, he is clearly not a subtley guy whose messages were meant to contain unseen layers. If he has a beef he calls you out and blows you up. Since he clearly isn't afraid to pick on Iron Man since he blew up his house why would he start with Happy if he's got some beef with Stark. Pepper or Stark himself are much much better targets. To me it was clearly presented as happy being in the wrong place at the wrong time taking his job wayyyyy to seriously and getting in over his head. Really Happy's reasons for following the guy don't make a lot of sense. He was the bodyguard of the guy who was actually doing the creeping on Pepper and happy thinks he looks suspicious so he, the head of Stark Security, personally tails him? The only reason we go along with it is because he's shown early being extremely overzealous about his new position and we like being with Happy.
! Yes it was a red herring but again you clearly have a bias for the Mandarin being the villain and clearly having built up so much what you thought he could be are comparing him to Killian and finding Killian lacking. That is not a problem with the movie however because unless you have that idea of the Mandarin in your head Killian is a fine villain. He has established motivations. He's smart. His plan is far reaching and grandiose. He doesn't underestimate Stark and gets the better of him on several occasions and he's ruthless. I didn't spoil anything for myself with this and even though i saw Killian on the posters I had no idea who or how big or small his involvement would be so the red herring worked for me and it worked for a lot of people.
! This is going to be one of those things where it clicks for some people but not for others and that will determine how they view the entire movie but whether or not that clicks is so subjective if you even open a discussion about it will be based on feelings and opinions rather than actual technical flaws with the movie and to me that means whether it clicks or not it may still be a fun movie, you just might not like it, but there's not actually anything wrong with it. -
If the same thing was done to the Mandarin was done to Joker or Luthor I think more people would call foul.
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One does have to wonder though…
! Where the fuck was SHIELD during all of this? SHIELD has gotten involved in nearly every other incident in this universe.
-Iron Man: Coulson wanted to find out exactly how Stark escaped. SHIELD was interested.
-Iron Man 2: Black Widow became involved.
-Incredible Hulk: While the Hulk was Ross's agenda, SHIELD was ordered to try and get the Abomination for the Avengers, they send Tony to piss off Ross enough to make sure that doesn't happen.
-Thor: Coulson was there 5 minutes after the hammer dropped
-Captain America: They handled Cap' after he was found.
! So where was SHIELD during all of this? You'd think they'd be all over this considering it seemed like a MAJOR terrorist organization attacking the country. Tony was able to track where the Mandarin's signal was coming from and break into the place. Where are the SHIELD agents when this is happening? They can track pretty much every device connected to the internet as seen in the Avengers when they were searching for the Cube, but they couldn't take 5 minutes to track the Mandarin, send Hawkeye down and call it an evening? -
One does have to wonder though…
! Where the fuck was SHIELD during all of this? SHIELD has gotten involved in nearly every other incident in this universe.
-Iron Man: Coulson wanted to find out exactly how Stark escaped. SHIELD was interested.
-Iron Man 2: Black Widow became involved.
-Incredible Hulk: While the Hulk was Ross's agenda, SHIELD was ordered to try and get the Abomination for the Avengers, they send Tony to piss off Ross enough to make sure that doesn't happen.
-Thor: Coulson was there 5 minutes after the hammer dropped
-Captain America: They handled Cap' after he was found.
! So where was SHIELD during all of this? You'd think they'd be all over this considering it seemed like a MAJOR terrorist organization attacking the country. Tony was able to track where the Mandarin's signal was coming from and break into the place. Where are the SHIELD agents when this is happening? They can track pretty much every device connected to the internet as seen in the Avengers when they were searching for the Cube, but they couldn't take 5 minutes to track the Mandarin, send Hawkeye down and call it an evening?It was galaga vacation tournament day at the shield offices. Who can score the highest! Let them heroes pick up some slack what else do we have them for? Even secret agents need to reload.
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Maybe this movie takes place at the same time as Winter Soldier.
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! So, there will be no Iron Man on the Avengers 2?
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! So, there will be no Iron Man on the Avengers 2?
! Iron Man will still appear in Avengers 2. They can always work around the ending, besides at the end they do say, "Tony Stark will return." Indicating this is not the last we see of Tony and he will be making further appearances.
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Robert Downey Jr.'s contract expired and he's in renegotiations with Marvel. He said on the Daily Show that he's not sure if he wants to come back…but you know he'll come back. Marvel would buy him every house in Malibu before they lose their star actor.
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@wolfwoof:
[hide]To really nitpick i thought it was weird how he was dragging his armor thorugh the woods when he is a master inventor, with an arc reactor in his chest, he easily could've powered the suit to close up again, activate the radio and had one of his 41 other iron man armors come and get him. I get that it's supposed to be how he doesn't need the armor to be a hero and all. Just thought it was strange how the guy who later on made weapons out of scraps couldn't manage to activate his own comlink with the entire armors worth of parts and a power souce at his disposal.
Same when he was tied up at Killian's place. he never once thought to send away for his massive army of sentient robots to just fucking level the place[/hide]
But y'know that's just nerdy nitpicking. Still bothered me a bit
! Not disagreeing. Just following it up with wondering why Tony didn't think of using the 41 suits when the helicopters attacked. Or why Pepper and the world thought Tony was dead when Tony clearly flew out of the ocean and his suit was still trackable. But these are actually nitpicks I wondered after leaving the theater.
Thought was that the movie was great, but still liked Iron Man better.
! Kept flip-flopping between liking the kid and not liking how he seemed to just be a mini Tony Stark, though I liked the interactions between him and Tony for the most part. Like the twist, I think the performances and script saved what seemed like a horrible concept on paper.
! Unfortunately I spoiled the reveal beforehand so I knew what I was getting into.
! Ben Kingsley's performance after the reveal helped a lot in making it work. That, and the general set up of the movie and the Iron Man series in general. Corporations tend to be what the Iron Man movies have been all about. Making the final villain a terrorist seemed to be more of a Captain America thing, unless they did try to make the Ten Rings vs Iron Man more personal.
! Also thought Tony's character growth was overscattered between PTSD, the whole "big man in a suit of armor, take that away and what are you" theme, and then the whole reckless pride and putting his loved ones in danger. It hit the concepts enough to recognize them. Yet, it didn't seem cohesive enough to bring it all together throughout the movie in a neat little package but instead was kinda just thrown together and put in a bag to keep up the Christmas gift metaphor. Plus, it didn't seem like a climatic way to end the Iron Man series (since that was what was intended just in case RDJ doesn't come back etc)
! But yeah this is me trying to be "critical". I had a blast with the movie. -
I just saw Iron Man 3 myself yesterday. I think there's already been plenty of hashing out of its strengths and weaknesses in the thread already, so I'll mostly just leave it at, that while it obviously wasn't a flawless movie, I thought it was quite good, and certainly had an enjoyable time being entertained by it.
I do want to say, however, regarding the talk about the villain:
! It seems to me that the people that are offering a negative critique of the bait-and-switch are mostly doing so from the stance of being a fan of the comics. Which, of course, is a more than valid stance to be coming from, since the movies are after all adaptations of the comics, regardless of how loosely or faithfully so. Still, I think it's only fair to recognize that that is the stance one is coming from, if it is.
! I saw where Robby, for example, mentioned in a post that the movie traded a more interesting villain for one less so with its twist. I honestly can't say I agree. Not to say that I feel the true villain was anything amazing; he wasn't bad, but he was admittedly just another generic villain. No, my disagreement comes from the fact that – speaking as someone with essentially no knowledge whatsoever of the comics, and thus basing my stance purely on what was shown in the movie -- the Mandarin was not an interesting villain, either.
! Sure, he had the potential to be, if the movie had been written differently, but if one is going to argue with hypotheticals, then it could just as easily be said that the true villain 'could have been' more interesting, as well. Given what was actually presented, however, he simply came across as a generic terrorist leader. A change of pace from a generic corrupt corporate executive, perhaps, but not really any better in any meaningful way. Going beyond that, even, I personally actually found something about him -- and I'm not at all sure I could put a paw on precisely what, unfortunately -- to be absurd and hard to take seriously. Mind you, I'm talking about before the 'reveal' when I say I felt this way; and so, in fact, when the twist came, I actually felt somewhat relieved and vindicated.
! So, to reiterate, I'm sure that, looking at the movie as an adaptation, there is a valid complaint about it effectively 'wasting' what I gather is an iconic villain in the original material. However, simply looking at the movie on its own merits, I don't feel there is much of a case to be made against how it decided to handle the situation. -
! "Fortune cookies are actually an American invention; hollow, full of lies, and leave a bad taste in my mouth."
! Welp. -
@Cyan:
! "Fortune cookies are actually an American invention; hollow, full of lies, and leave a bad taste in my mouth."
! Welp.That was actually one of my favorite lines in the movie.
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Shane Black is the unidisputed king of dialouge.
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"Because we're connected"
That had me in fucking stitches.
Yet more thoughts on why the twist didn't bother me:
! As the film went on, I became more and more certain that Ben Kingsley wouldn't be the main bad. Not because of buzz surrounding the "villain surprises" but…well, firstly they called Mandarin "adviser to the king". Right there I thought "Oh he's going to support Killian, not the other way around".
Then they revealed the movie set in Miami, wayyy before Tony gets there. That was fishy, and not exactly very "asian terrorist" -like. Indicated that the Mandarin wasn't what he seemed.
And finally, when Tony tracks him down, it is so far into the movie that its rather late to build up any relationship with the "main villain". I mean, despite what the trailers led us to believe, Theres not a single scene of Tony adressing the Mandarin, or the Mandarin adressing him. Instead, the Mandarin adresses the government, and Tony taunts the Mandarin indirectly through television.
So I was ready for the Mandarin to be second banana, or some funamentalist Killian just manipulated - but not ready for Trevor.
Who was uproarious. -
@Cyan:
! "Fortune cookies are actually an American invention; hollow, full of lies, and leave a bad taste in my mouth."
! Welp.Best line in the movie.
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From superhero hype forums.
! "Killiandarin karate-chops armors in half like comic Mandarin.(albeit because of extremis amped strength rather than chi amped strength)
! Killiandarin is a mad scientist like comic Mandarin.
! Killiandarin has a dragon tattoo like comic Mandarin.
! Killiandarin is obsessed with achieving perfection of mind and body like comic Mandarin.
! He's got a crazy scheme of the sort Mandarin tends to have.
! Killiandarin is actually pretty much comic Mandarin except for race.
You know…with it explained in this way, I'm actually much more satisfied with everything.
! In fact, it appears that The Mandarin is truly portrayed in this film in full force...he's just split into two different people.
! You have the "heart" of the Mandarin (all of the "Killiandarin" aspects you pointed out, minus the race and general history of the comic Mandarin) in Killian, and then you have the "face" of the Mandarin (robes, terrifying nature, iconography, general appearance) in Trevor the actor."I agree with this.
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Aldrich Killian is in the comics? I thought he was an original character.
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Iron Man 3 opened at $175 million in the United States and has already hit about $680 million around the world.
That's about $32 million less than The Avengers, which really drives home just how well the latter film did in its opening.
Complicating things since 2009.
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http://www.collegehumor.com/video/5922674/deja-view-iron-man-vs-batman
one of those cliche comparisons where you go broad enough and you can compare basically any movie ever made
1. saying tony stark lives off his dads money, like bruce. Umm tony has invented things and still does that makes a shit ton of money? What does bruce do for his company?
2. saying his mentor is the enemy? I woudl hardly call tony's enemy the mentor. He was just like his dad's buddy and ran part of the business. He never mentored tony
3. comparing the female coutnerparts? really? one is a childhood friend who is a reporter, and they haven't really seen each other in like 20 years. THe other is ones secretary that he spends every day with and she does everything for him.
4. They both take their dads money and makes a suit? Well as I said in part 1, not really dads money in tony's case. But tony MAKES his suit. Most of batmans thing are made by fox, bruce just slightly alters them to look baty
5. both in jail? really? Bruce voluntarily went into one, while tony was a hostage of terroristsonly saw the youtube clip once, so may be missing parts. But again its just a useless comparison bringing things very vague and broad to make them seem similar
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I wonder if marvel would ever consider doing movies with only two superheroes in them.
I'd totally would love to see an iron man/hulk movie the chemistry between tony and bruce is just super entertaining. -
Iron Man 3 opened at $175 million in the United States and has already hit about $680 million around the world.
That's about $32 million less than The Avengers, which really drives home just how well the latter film did in its opening.
Wow sounds like Iron Man 3 did very very well.
I mean Avengers set like every record known to man. For any movie to be even close to its numbers is a feat to brag about.
How did Iron Man 3 compare to Batman 3 is what I would be more intersted in learning
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one of those cliche comparisons where you go broad enough and you can compare basically any movie ever made
1. saying tony stark lives off his dads money, like bruce. Umm tony has invented things and still does that makes a shit ton of money? What does bruce do for his company?
2. saying his mentor is the enemy? I woudl hardly call tony's enemy the mentor. He was just like his dad's buddy and ran part of the business. He never mentored tony
3. comparing the female coutnerparts? really? one is a childhood friend who is a reporter, and they haven't really seen each other in like 20 years. THe other is ones secretary that he spends every day with and she does everything for him.
4. They both take their dads money and makes a suit? Well as I said in part 1, not really dads money in tony's case. But tony MAKES his suit. Most of batmans thing are made by fox, bruce just slightly alters them to look baty
5. both in jail? really? Bruce voluntarily went into one, while tony was a hostage of terroristsonly saw the youtube clip once, so may be missing parts. But again its just a useless comparison bringing things very vague and broad to make them seem similar
That vid was mean't to humorous.
Structually, Begins clearly influenced the first Iron Man flick. I never said or meant the influence was major only that the same story beats of an origin film focusing on the character was similar. -
Just saw Iron Man 3
I really enjoyed it.
! Mandarin twist I really liked. It was just this…Wait, what!? sort of moment. I really liked the "reluctant minion" he was like the smartest guy lol. I'm not taking a lazer to the face for a group of glowy weirdos. The kid was hit and miss. And while I'm glad Pepper got to be a participant towards the end...She kinda irritated me a bit after Tony had his nightmare. I just felt while yeah she nearly got hurt...I don't think she should have bolted like that either. Seemed weird...I thought she was the one character who should have more patience for Tony's issues.
The trailer for Thor 2 has peaked my interest.
! I wonder if that will be the one to lead into Avenger's 2. Is there word of a Captain America 2 or another Hulk?
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Captain, yes. Hulk, no. Ruffalo signed a six-movie deal, but like with Robert that includes future cameos and whatnot.
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Captain America: The Winter Solider which is set to release in 2014. I know that it will feature Falcon in it.
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That vid was mean't to humorous.
Structually, Begins clearly influenced the first Iron Man flick. I never said or meant the influence was major only that the same story beats of an origin film focusing on the character was similar.Ooooh! Just like how Swamp Thing clearly influenced the Batman Begins in terms of structure (just because there is a resemblance, it doesn't mean it was explicitly influenced by it. They are…after all, probably influenced more by the comics more than other movies).
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The Iron Man director openly acknowledged Begins as an influence can we just lay this to rest now?
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Would be nice to see the interview so we could hear which parts he feels were inspired by begins
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The director can say whatever he wants, i am still interested in seeing where the batman rises influences in the film explicitly because i am still not seeing it.
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I don't really feel like digging it up, I'm just recalling from memory from a interview I read. Whether you believe it or not, that's up to you. I only stated the influence was only on the first Iron Man and even that is only structure not tone.
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So I saw the film on Thursday and decided to wait a few days and reflect before commenting. First off I really liked the movie and I thought it's main focus was more about Tony's relationship with people and how he's changed from the narcissist in the first movie to caring more about others post-Avengers.
I had mix thoughts on the Mandarin, but after reflecting I also looked up some past events involving the Mandarin. I can see a possibility where there could be more to the choice they made with the Mandarin involving the overall plan for Phase 2.
Here are my thoughts on the Mandarin and Phase 2: (my theory on Phase 2 is somewhat long)
! First, my thoughts on the Mandarin:
! I liked the twist. When Tony held the Mandarin at gunpoint, for the first minute I actually thought the Mandarin was just acting and was going to go "Just kidding! Surprise Mother F#@ker!" and beat the crap out of Iron Man. While I though the twist was hilarious, in the back of my mind I was slightly saddened. It's one thing if the twist was done with a lesser Iron Man villain, but this is Iron Man's arch-nemesis. Are they really going to waste him (and Ben Kingsley) on a twist like this? That really bugged me. One thing that did stick out to me though is that the Mandarin was the only villain that did not die, they only took him away in cuffs. I don't think they are quite done with the Mandarin.
! Now how do I think this could work out in Phase 2:
! Please bear with me now, there's a lot I have on my mind about it and I will be making some assumptions too. I'll try to back up this theory the best I can. First off let's assume Marvel has Phase 2 more planned out than Phase 1. Since Marvel already has a baseline structure for the cinematic universe, they're probably already sowing the seeds for Avengers 2 through each movie. Now let's assume Marvel and Joss want to save Thanos for Avengers 3. Joss hinted at this in an interview recently. http://screenrant.com/the-avengers-3-thanos-joss-whedon/ Notice Joss said, "Well, Thanos is more powerful. He is so powerful he is not someone you can just try out and punch him. Like he did in the comics, you want him threading through the universe and to save the big finale for the big finale. He is definitely a part of what I have got going on…__The thing about The Avengers is that they are very powerful but not very stable. So, there will definitely be some people that will shake them up in the next installment." The key word is people. This implies that there could be multiple villains. What would be a big enough threat for the Avengers? The Masters of Evil.
! Now here's where the Mandarin plays in. Let's say the Feds let Ben Kingsley character go. He's still just a drug addict. He stumble upon the alien ship with the actual 10 Rings. Upon obtaining the rings and with the combo of the drugs he goes crazy and believes himself to be the Mandarin, the role he once played is now his reality. Now assuming the Thor and Captain America movies build up other villains and previous villains return (Loki of course), the Mandarin could form the Masters of Evil.
! Now you're perhaps thinking that while the Masters of Evil are a big threat, the Avengers fought off a whole army of space aliens in the first movie. It's not big enough, besides we would see it coming. I would agree with you 100%. So there would have to be something else. Something to push it over the top and make the Avengers feel doomed and hopeless. This is where the Mandarin comes in again. When looking up old events of the Mandarin I found a connection I didn't realize before. The origin of the 10 Rings. I already knew they were from an alien ship, but what I didn't pay attention to was which race of alien they were from, the Makluan. Now why are the Makluan important? Well, one very famous villain and huge threat which the Avengers have fought is a Makluan. Fin Fang Foom.
! http://marvel.com/universe/Mandarin & http://marvel.com/universe/Fin_Fang_Foom
! This would be the thing no one would see coming because of the misdirection of just the Masters of Evil. It would work out too since the Mandarin and Fin Fang Foom have teamed up together in the comics in the past. The Masters of Evil summon Fin Fang Foom and all hell breaks loose.
! Something like this would be amazing if they could pull it off. I think this is something that could be plausibly done. Please feel free to let me know what you think of the theory. I would want to see Phase 2 play out like this. It would blow my mind.Current Trophy Rank: Lv 14-37%
Gambit
Nintendo ID: MPZ777Feel free to friend request me. Just let me know your from AP Forums.
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Repost
! ~From superhero hype forums~
Killiandarin karate-chops armors in half like comic Mandarin.
(albeit because of extremis amped strength rather than chi amped strength)
! Killiandarin is a mad scientist like comic Mandarin.
! Killiandarin has a dragon tattoo like comic Mandarin.
! Killiandarin is obsessed with achieving perfection of mind and body like comic Mandarin.
! He's got a crazy scheme of the sort Mandarin tends to have.
! Killiandarin is actually pretty much comic Mandarin except for race.
You know…with it explained in this way, I'm actually much more satisfied with everything.
! In fact, it appears that The Mandarin is truly portrayed in this film in full force...he's just split into two different people.
! You have the "heart" of the Mandarin (all of the "Killiandarin" aspects you pointed out, minus the race and general history of the comic Mandarin) in Killian, and then you have the "face" of the Mandarin (robes, terrifying nature, iconography, general appearance) in Trevor the actor."I agree with this.
http://w11.zetaboards.com/OnePieceNewWorld/index/
Originally Posted by The Laughing Man
Let's just be honest here: The Watchmen movie was a complete and utter, extremely boring, blue man penis filled abomination.
And I don't even feel this way, it's just a hilarious quote.
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So I saw the film on Thursday and decided to wait a few days and reflect before commenting. First off I really liked the movie and I thought it's main focus was more about Tony's relationship with people and how he's changed from the narcissist in the first movie to caring more about others post-Avengers.
I had mix thoughts on the Mandarin, but after reflecting I also looked up some past events involving the Mandarin. I can see a possibility where there could be more to the choice they made with the Mandarin involving the overall plan for Phase 2.
Here are my thoughts on the Mandarin and Phase 2: (my theory on Phase 2 is somewhat long)
! First, my thoughts on the Mandarin:
! I liked the twist. When Tony held the Mandarin at gunpoint, for the first minute I actually thought the Mandarin was just acting and was going to go "Just kidding! Surprise Mother F#@ker!" and beat the crap out of Iron Man. While I though the twist was hilarious, in the back of my mind I was slightly saddened. It's one thing if the twist was done with a lesser Iron Man villain, but this is Iron Man's arch-nemesis. Are they really going to waste him (and Ben Kingsley) on a twist like this? That really bugged me. One thing that did stick out to me though is that the Mandarin was the only villain that did not die, they only took him away in cuffs. I don't think they are quite done with the Mandarin.
! Now how do I think this could work out in Phase 2:
! Please bear with me now, there's a lot I have on my mind about it and I will be making some assumptions too. I'll try to back up this theory the best I can. First off let's assume Marvel has Phase 2 more planned out than Phase 1. Since Marvel already has a baseline structure for the cinematic universe, they're probably already sowing the seeds for Avengers 2 through each movie. Now let's assume Marvel and Joss want to save Thanos for Avengers 3. Joss hinted at this in an interview recently. http://screenrant.com/the-avengers-3-thanos-joss-whedon/ Notice Joss said, "Well, Thanos is more powerful. He is so powerful he is not someone you can just try out and punch him. Like he did in the comics, you want him threading through the universe and to save the big finale for the big finale. He is definitely a part of what I have got going on…__The thing about The Avengers is that they are very powerful but not very stable. So, there will definitely be some people that will shake them up in the next installment." The key word is people. This implies that there could be multiple villains. What would be a big enough threat for the Avengers? The Masters of Evil.
! Now here's where the Mandarin plays in. Let's say the Feds let Ben Kingsley character go. He's still just a drug addict. He stumble upon the alien ship with the actual 10 Rings. Upon obtaining the rings and with the combo of the drugs he goes crazy and believes himself to be the Mandarin, the role he once played is now his reality. Now assuming the Thor and Captain America movies build up other villains and previous villains return (Loki of course), the Mandarin could form the Masters of Evil.
! Now you're perhaps thinking that while the Masters of Evil are a big threat, the Avengers fought off a whole army of space aliens in the first movie. It's not big enough, besides we would see it coming. I would agree with you 100%. So there would have to be something else. Something to push it over the top and make the Avengers feel doomed and hopeless. This is where the Mandarin comes in again. When looking up old events of the Mandarin I found a connection I didn't realize before. The origin of the 10 Rings. I already knew they were from an alien ship, but what I didn't pay attention to was which race of alien they were from, the Makluan. Now why are the Makluan important? Well, one very famous villain and huge threat which the Avengers have fought is a Makluan. Fin Fang Foom.
! http://marvel.com/universe/Mandarin & http://marvel.com/universe/Fin_Fang_Foom
! This would be the thing no one would see coming because of the misdirection of just the Masters of Evil. It would work out too since the Mandarin and Fin Fang Foom have teamed up together in the comics in the past. The Masters of Evil summon Fin Fang Foom and all hell breaks loose.
! Something like this would be amazing if they could pull it off. I think this is something that could be plausibly done. Please feel free to let me know what you think of the theory. I would want to see Phase 2 play out like this. It would blow my mind.Wow…That's actually some great ideas in there.
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I could care less about the faithfulness to the source material when it serves the given film. I admit that if the same was done to a well known villain like Joker or Luthor I think more people would throw a fit(including me) but as it stands I think the nature of the Mandarin character throughout his comic history is properly encapsulated in this film. I commend the filmmakers for taking this direction, it's even more of ballsy change to an comic villain then Joker's war paint instead of perma-white. I think this is perhaps the only time you could get away with doing that to an archenemy of an A-list hero.
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~From superhero hype forums~
Dude spoiler that stuff I'm sure there are some people who haven't seen it yet and don't want spoilers (no matter how small).
Originally Posted by Norisuke Higashikata IV
"Your stand is like your asshole. You can't go around showing it off to other people."
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Have yet to see the movie, and don't know anything about this mandarin character.
BUT what is with all the hate. I don't recal seeing as much hate in regards to any of the batman movies in how they portrayed the villians differently such as Bane or rhas alghoul..
I don't get comic book fans raging ever. There is like 30 interpretations of each superhero/villian throughout history. Every time a comic book author decides to take up a story he changes it in some way. Why do they never accept a film maker's interpretation of the villian? Why can comic book authors rewrite a villian how they want, yet a movie has to stay faithful to whatever comic book some fan wants it to be.
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BUT what is with all the hate. I don't recal seeing as much hate in regards to any of the batman movies in how they portrayed the villians differently such as Bane or rhas alghoul..
There's a specific really drastic change from that comics that feels like either a huge betrayal, or a good payoff, depending on your perspective. It's getting pretty mixed reaction.
The split seems to be comic fans are bothered, but everyone else is perfectly fine with it and had no problem with it and think its cool.
Bane and Rhas Al Ghoul, despite whatever variations they had from the comic, still stuck pretty close to the character.
The only real comparison without spoiling it would be if say… The Joker was in a Batman movie, but halfway through the film he started using umbrella weapons and making penguin jokes while dressing all in green and leaving riddles.
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@RobbyBevard:
There's a specific moment that feels like either a huge betrayal, or a huge amazing vindication of the character, depending on your perspective.
It's getting pretty mixed reaction.
My point was, that if a comic book did it, the fans would be fine with it. They might rage initially but they would get over it and accept it or think its some Earth-273 so who cares, ect. I mean look at oracle. I believe that was much hated initially, and now its one of the most loved conversions done ever to a character.
But a movie can't take liberties, they have to be loyal to a comic.
Comic book fans have to realize that the movies aren't adaptations of comics, they are the film makers OWN comic. instead of drawing a comic, they are filming one.
(sounds like fans aren't mad because of the "twist" being bad per say, but because it ruined a comic book character or something like that) If there was no Iron Man lore to refer to, I imagine they woudl have no qualms with it. Which again brings me back to main point. They need to realize that movies are their own stories. They are adapting the characters and world how they want. Just like every other 1000 Earth versions of characters do in comics.
Or is it only DC comics tat have like 1000 earths, and Marvel world is purely set in stone? I highly doubt it. feels like I've seen 10 different Wolverine Origins.
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@RobbyBevard:
The only real comparison without spoiling it would be if say… The Joker was in a Batman movie, but halfway through the film he started using umbrella weapons and making penguin jokes while dressing all in green and leaving riddles.
Funny you should say that because unlike the Joker, Mandarin isn't that good a villain in the comics anyway. I think the reason they did that for Mandarin is because the character from what I've heard from friends who actually are in tuned within the Iron Man comic lore really lacks truly great stories. I think that's the reason they felt the courage to do something of that sort to a comic-villain who really wasn't all that to begin with. You can't really compare, since if you did that with the Joker it wouldn't have worked as well like it did with Mandarin since Joker is a pretty much a character who's like an mad dog that's just naturally to unstable for anyone to control.
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Dude spoiler that stuff I'm sure there are some people who haven't seen it yet and don't want spoilers (no matter how small).
Lol i totally forgot, good thing everyone seems to be ignoring it pretty hard so no harm no foul.
@The:
"Because we're connected"
That had me in fucking stitches.
Also, this.
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My point was, that if a comic book did it, the fans would be fine with it. They might rage initially but they would get over it and accept it or think its some Earth-273 so who cares, ect. I mean look at oracle. I believe that was much hated initially, and now its one of the most loved conversions done ever to a character.
You don't know what the change IS, or how it was executed, you can't really discuss it.
It's not a matter of changing his costume or a detail about his powers or updating him.
Nobody even batted an eye when they merged Crimson Dynamo and Whiplash. That's a huge change, and no one cared. Movie version, whatever. Thor's world is made more technological, less fantasy. Everyone's cool with it. X-Men takes who knows how many liberties with its comic stories, no problem. Fans are fine with movies having different takes. This change however was… weird.
The legacy of the comics and the advertising are mostly to blame for the reaction, I think.
since if you did that with the Joker it wouldn't have worked as well like it did with Mandarin since Joker is a pretty much a character who's like an mad dog that's just naturally to unstable for anyone to control.
You could have pulled exactly the same thing with the Joker. Note for note.
! This crazy madman in clown makeup is blowing up buildings, making threats, filming videos and causing chaos for no apparent reason. An hour into the film, you find out he's actually just a stoned british actor that wants to get laid, who has no idea any of the destruction is real, that was hired by one of Bruce Wayne's corporate rivals so he can take advantage of the chaos and profit… Batman was never really part of the equation. Then the rest of the movie focuses on the mob boss who was actually using the threat of the Joker to control the other mob bosses!
! See, because its a movie, it's not beholden at all to typical interpretations of Joker as a crazy mad dog main adversary of Batman... it's okay to just have him be a minor note red herring of no real significance and pretend the movie is going to be about Batman's greatest adversary, when really you're doing a story about a C-list character instead.It would be the exact same treatment and waste of the character. If you think it would be a bad waste of one character, how is it any different for another?
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I thought the movie was great - my only complaint was with
! the portrayal of the Mandarin. The twist was funny, but given that (from what I know - I could be wrong) the Mandarin is supposed to be Tony's arch-nemesis, it would be like if a Batman reboot looked like it was going to feature the Joker, only for the Joker to just be some thug in face paint with the real threat being Killer Moth.
! Ben Kingsley's portrayal of the Mandarin was excellent, both before and after the reveal, whereas Aldrich Killian just seemed bland - kind of like the rich but rude fiancee in a romantic comedy, or the leader of a rival team in an 80s sports movie, or a more suave version of Justin Hammer. I get that anonymity was his in-character motivation, but it's not good when you leave the theater and you aren't even sure of the main antagonist's name. It's just unfortunate that they replaced a much more interesting villain with a comparatively bland one.Also, the ending scene with all of the armours showing up was pretty awesome, but the more cynical side of me thinks that it was solely for merchandising, particularly when he started referring to them by names.
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Comic book fans have to realize that the movies aren't adaptations of comics, they are the film makers OWN comic. instead of drawing a comic, they are filming one.
This just reminded me of a guy i used to know who used to defend the Dolph Lundgren Punisher in sort of the same manner
This has nothing to do with anything really. Just me going down memory lane
