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    Chapter 987: Vassals of Glory

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    • Deicide
      Deicide @wolfwood
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      @wolfwood:

      This all begs the question at which point can Luffy stop being an underdog?

      Underdog is a relative term. He needs to feel like the underdog against whatever he's struggling to defeat currently.

      In a way, he will be the underdog until the end of the series. Even in the final arc he will be the second "strongest" to whatever the final enemy is. Or else there's no feeling of threat.

      So going into that final storm does Luffy still need to be an "ant"?

      No. The last time he was an "ant" was in Marineford, because he was so far bellow the big players he couldn't do anything alone. Those days are long gone. However, there's still people above him that he will struggle to defeat.

      But i'll tack on a disclaimer that i don't neccesarily think the whole fight will be solo'd by Luffy, but the final blows that lays him out i hope will be his very own unsupported ones

      Luffy being the last one standing is expected, IMO. We may see something more or less like the Oars/Moria fight: gang up on the big boss, can't beat him. Luffy gets a powerup through outside help and beats villain. Villain's not entirely defeated, and plain old Luffy finishes him off.

      WHatever happens, I think two principles will be present:

      • Luffy can't beat Kaido without some sort of help.
      • No one would be able to beat Kaido, no matter how much help they got, if Luffy wasn't there.

      Wano predictions: There will be 5 acts; All Straw Hats will get fights, some in Act 4; Big Mom Pirates will arrive; Carrot will have her moment, but won't join; Yamato will be a Kouzuki samurai and Wano's Guardian; Shanks will visit Luffy in Act 5; Next arc is Mary Geoise.

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      • Ivotas
        Ivotas @Deicide
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        @wolfwood:

        This all begs the question at which point can Luffy stop being an underdog? Assuming the five year plan to be real OP is ending relatively shortly, and the last part post-wano

        I'm telling you man, everybody get's the "five year plan" statement wrong. It literally means, that we're in for another time skip, only this time three years, which would make a five year story in the end. I mean post-timeskip is pretty much act 2 of One Piece so we do need another one for act 3. :silly:

        But all joking aside, Deicide pretty much said what I wanted to say in the post below so it really comes down to how you interpret underdog. What I would like to add to this is that taking even if the top dogs take Luffy on their level, they will still think that they are able to beat him respectively that they are stronger than him. The difference would only be that they don't take him as small fry anymore. I mean just in this very arc it has been hammered home a couple of times that up till now the Emperors are something else completely both by Kaido one shotting Luffy and by statements from both sides where Kaido taunts Kid by saying what they did up to that point was just playing pirates aswell as Hawkins and Apoo both claiming that the Emperors are something else entirely from what they had to deal up to that point.

        To add one more thing on the room for growth thing. I have no doubt that Luffy will also awaken his DF ability at some point. In which case we'd get yet another power up. This also has to tie in somewhere and it just seems more necessary when he's still struggling against someone rather than fighting on equal grounds where it is a matter of endurance, willpower and tenacity which Luffy always excels at.

        @Deicide:

        Underdog is a relative term. He needs to feel like the underdog against whatever he's struggling to defeat currently.

        In a way, he will be the underdog until the end of the series. Even in the final arc he will be the second "strongest" to whatever the final enemy is. Or else there's no feeling of threat.

        No. The last time he was an "ant" was in Marineford, because he was so far bellow the big players he couldn't do anything alone. Those days are long gone. However, there's still people above him that he will struggle to defeat.

        Luffy being the last one standing is expected, IMO. We may see something more or less like the Oars/Moria fight: gang up on the big boss, can't beat him. Luffy gets a powerup through outside help and beats villain. Villain's not entirely defeated, and plain old Luffy finishes him off.

        WHatever happens, I think two principles will be present:

        • Luffy can't beat Kaido without some sort of help.
        • No one would be able to beat Kaido, no matter how much help they got, if Luffy wasn't there.

        I pretty much agree with all what you've said.

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        • King Cannon
          King Cannon @wolfwood
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          @wolfwood:

          This all begs the question at which point can Luffy stop being an underdog?

          He always needs to be an underdog against whatever threat he faces since that's basic storytelling. Even against enemies that are clearly below his level (Hody, Caesar), Oda will always go the extra length to give Luffy a disadvantage to even things out, like having to fight underwater or giving the enemy a broken-ass ability like controlling oxygen.

          The only exception so far was Bellamy, but that was deliberately done to make Luffy come out as the better man.

          You could also count Foxy, but considering Aokiji came right after, Oda probably needed the dude to be on the sillier side.

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          • C
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            I really feel like the story is in a very interesting strange place.

            I know that Luffy isn't strong enough to beat Kaido 1v1, but the question becomes, at least for me. Do we really want Luffy to defeat Kaido the way Blackbeard killed Whitebeard? Because that's essentially what we're asking/expecting to happen. I know people will say "Well Blackbeard is underhanded and blah blah blah." There is different motivations behind the team up to defeat one person. But it's still not that different imo. It's using an entire war of people to try and beat one guy.

            I don't know? I just want Luffy's victory over an Emperor to be because of Luffy, and we can actually call him an Emperor without an eye roll , and not because of a group of people. But I again I also agree Luffy is nowhere near strong enough to defeat Kaido 1v1, so we're in this werid space where unless Luffy can defeat him solo? I don't want Kaido to loose at all, but there's no way he's still in charge of Wano at the end of this Arc.

            And the other thing is, it's so obvious that's how Luffy can win is via a group effort, it just makes my question, if that's actually how Oda would do it?

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            • wolfwood
              wolfwood
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              @Deicide:

              Underdog is a relative term. He needs to feel like the underdog against whatever he's struggling to defeat currently.

              In a way, he will be the underdog until the end of the series. Even in the final arc he will be the second "strongest" to whatever the final enemy is. Or else there's no feeling of threat.

              Dunno. To me fighting an equal with an uncertain outcome feels more appropriate for post-wano than a semi-fledgeling still struggling to overcome big walls. As you said underdog can be subjective, for me it entails going into an on the paper hopeless struggle, but for some it could be something else entirely. What i'd prefer the end game to be like is more like a bunch of Ippo versus Sendo matches, y'know two equal but potent and deadly fighters going to the limit. I'm so ready for Luffy to stop being the he has no chance kid and start being the this could go either way guy. Like a threat is still there, he isn't guaranteed a win but he has a fighting chance.

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              • Deicide
                Deicide @cryhwks
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                @cryhwks:

                And the other thing is, it's so obvious that's how Luffy can win is via a group effort, it just makes my question, if that's actually how Oda would do it?

                Think of the Oars/Moria fight. It was a group effort, but Luffy was clearly above everyone else, executed the final strike and was the last one standing.

                Wano predictions: There will be 5 acts; All Straw Hats will get fights, some in Act 4; Big Mom Pirates will arrive; Carrot will have her moment, but won't join; Yamato will be a Kouzuki samurai and Wano's Guardian; Shanks will visit Luffy in Act 5; Next arc is Mary Geoise.

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                • C
                  Claudio
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                  I think it will be more like with Doflamingo but with a lot more players. In the end Luffy will "awaken" or pull out "gear 5" and that will be it.

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                  • theackwardstation
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                    I agree with whoever said that Luffy doesn't need to be an underdog for the stakes to work narrative-wise. Oda will always hype the villain to make them look threatening and bigger, like Doflamingo, who was not necessarily above Luffy in our perception, but he had that cunning badass vibe that made him look like a formidable enemy. That's good enough. And there are many other tricks to manipulate tension, like the scale of the situation, or a time limit, or a lot of victims being harmed.

                    If Blackbeard is the final boss, I believe he'll have a greater name than Luffy at that point in time (or not if Luffy were the PK?), especially because of all those overpowered devil fruit abilities making him look scarier… but it'll be a battle of two emperors. One could see Luffy as the underdog in that fight, but it would be close.

                    If the World Government is the final boss, it's impossible to not see Luffy as the underdog in the end. The WG has the greatest military force in the world and they're an established behemoth for the last 800 years, which feel really enormous. They're above any Yonkou individually, as Marineford did very well to show us. And maybe Imu is simply the strongest in the world, the lurking legend.

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                    • Deicide
                      Deicide @theackwardstation
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                      @theackwardstation:

                      Oda will always hype the villain to make them look threatening and bigger, like Doflamingo, who was not necessarily above Luffy in our perception, but he had that cunning badass vibe that made him look like a formidable enemy.

                      Doflamingo was shown beating everyone in his path before the fight with Luffy. Only Aokiji gave the guy pause. I don't see how Doflamingo "was not necessarily above Luffy in our perception".

                      That's good enough. And there are many other tricks to manipulate tension, like the scale of the situation, or a time limit, or a lot of victims being harmed.

                      This is a battle manga. Put a time limit, lots of victims or whatever, in the end it will be resolved by beating the villain, like Luffy said in Alabasta. Oda can make situations that feel threatening in other ways, but ultimately it's beating up the villain that is the climex of an arc.

                      Would an arc that ends with Luffy fighting Big Mom's enraged army (which WAS able to take him down) feel satisfying? I don't think so.

                      If Blackbeard is the final boss, I believe he'll have a greater name than Luffy at that point in time (or not if Luffy were the PK?), especially because of all those overpowered devil fruit abilities making him look scarier… but it'll be a battle of two emperors. One could see Luffy as the underdog in that fight, but it would be close.

                      Just by Blackbeard having two DFs, one of them capable of negating the entire set of Luffy's upgrades over the years, is enough to put Luffy as an underdog and not an equal to Blackbeard. Yes, a battle of two Yonko, but one of them has a huge advantage from the get-go.

                      Wano predictions: There will be 5 acts; All Straw Hats will get fights, some in Act 4; Big Mom Pirates will arrive; Carrot will have her moment, but won't join; Yamato will be a Kouzuki samurai and Wano's Guardian; Shanks will visit Luffy in Act 5; Next arc is Mary Geoise.

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                      • theackwardstation
                        theackwardstation @Deicide
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                        @Deicide:

                        Doflamingo was shown beating everyone in his path before the fight with Luffy. Only Aokiji gave the guy pause. I don't see how Doflamingo "was not necessarily above Luffy in our perception".

                        Huh, I guess it's subjective, but I never had the feeling that Doflamingo was above Luffy's level… and I read the entire saga since Punk Hazard with that feeling, and it worked. Also, if I remember correctly, nobody in my group of online friends who read OP saw Luffy as the underdog either. It was a balanced conflict.

                        Doflamingo was threatening and formidable, of course, but that only serves to show that a villain doesn't need to be stronger to play the role well. Reader were excited simply because it promised to be one hell of a fight, not because Doflamingo looked unbeatable. We really wanted to see how it would play out, inclusing because it was finally time to see what Luffy learned during the time skip.

                        This is a battle manga. Put a time limit, lots of victims or whatever, in the end it will be resolved by beating the villain, like Luffy said in Alabasta. Oda can make situations that feel threatening in other ways, but ultimately it's beating up the villain that is the climex of an arc.

                        Would an arc that ends with Luffy fighting Big Mom's enraged army (which WAS able to take him down) feel satisfying? I don't think so.

                        Of course the situation will be resolved by Luffy defeating the boss, but that's not my point. What I'm saying is that the author can easily build tension without making the protagonist the underdog.

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                        • Deicide
                          Deicide @theackwardstation
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                          @theackwardstation:

                          Doflamingo was threatening and formidable, of course, but that only serves to show that a villain doesn't need to be stronger to play the role well. Reader were excited simply because it promised to be one hell of a fight, not because Doflamingo looked unbeatable. We really wanted to see how it would play out, inclusing because it was finally time to see what Luffy learned during the time skip.

                          This has nothing to do with a villain being "unbeatable". It's about being a threat, and Doflaming certainly was huge one.

                          Luffy was the underdog in Dressrosa just as well.

                          What I'm saying is that the author can easily build tension without making the protagonist the underdog.

                          Not when the big climax is defined by a brawl between the protagonist and someone who feels weaker and unthreatening.

                          Wano predictions: There will be 5 acts; All Straw Hats will get fights, some in Act 4; Big Mom Pirates will arrive; Carrot will have her moment, but won't join; Yamato will be a Kouzuki samurai and Wano's Guardian; Shanks will visit Luffy in Act 5; Next arc is Mary Geoise.

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                          • King Cannon
                            King Cannon @theackwardstation
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                            @theackwardstation:

                            Huh, I guess it's subjective, but I never had the feeling that Doflamingo was above Luffy's level… and I read the entire saga since Punk Hazard with that feeling, and it worked. Also, if I remember correctly, nobody in my group of online friends who read OP saw Luffy as the underdog either. It was a balanced conflict.

                            Until Gear 4th came into play, Doflamingo was completely outclassing Luffy in strength (Gear 2nd was too weak) and speed (Gear 3rd was too slow). He was very much portrayed as above Luffy's level until the latter pulled his trump card, at which point Luffy became laughably superior.

                            And with this in mind, you could tell the likes of Cracker and Katakuri were proper next steps as they could counter Gear 4th better than Doflamingo, to the point Luffy had to bring up new forms for each fight. Luffy is always an underdog with an ace up his sleeve that evens things out.

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                            • theackwardstation
                              theackwardstation @Deicide
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                              @Deicide:

                              This has nothing to do with a villain being "unbeatable". It's about being a threat, and Doflaming certainly was huge one.

                              Luffy was the underdog in Dressrosa just as well.

                              Disagree.

                              Not when the big climax is defined by a brawl between the protagonist and someone who feels weaker and unthreatening.

                              I do think you're imposing a nonexistent rule.

                              It's really common to see the protagonist being the underdog, but not because it's necessary. Only because it's the easiest way.

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                              • B
                                Blissed @theackwardstation
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                                @theackwardstation:

                                Huh, I guess it's subjective, but I never had the feeling that Doflamingo was above Luffy's level… and I read the entire saga since Punk Hazard with that feeling, and it worked. Also, if I remember correctly, nobody in my group of online friends who read OP saw Luffy as the underdog either. It was a balanced conflict.

                                Doflamingo was threatening and formidable, of course, but that only serves to show that a villain doesn't need to be stronger to play the role well. Reader were excited simply because it promised to be one hell of a fight, not because Doflamingo looked unbeatable. We really wanted to see how it would play out, inclusing because it was finally time to see what Luffy learned during the time skip.

                                Of course the situation will be resolved by Luffy defeating the boss, but that's not my point. What I'm saying is that the author can easily build tension without making the protagonist the underdog.

                                Interesting, you're honestly the first person I ever heard say they didn't consider Luffy to be the underdog pre-Gear 4th.

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                                • andre
                                  andre @Blissed
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                                  @Blissed:

                                  Interesting, you're honestly the first person I ever heard say they didn't consider Luffy to be the underdog pre-Gear 4th.

                                  He's factually wrong, at least from the point where Luffy is outclassed using Gears 3 and 4 until when gear 4 is used. I can sort of understand how he maybe could have thought they were equal beforehand, but there was no good evidence for it, especially with how easily Doflamingo took out Smoker.

                                  Check out my podcast for conversations about Greatness in anime, sports, music, and whatever else we can think of.

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                                  • wolfwood
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                                    Maybe it is the undefined terminology throwing me off, but reading it it made it seem like a battle where one part isn't clearly outclassed by the other lacks tension? Cause that leaves out tons of other scenarios where a sense of tension can be maintained. Like that kid Goku versus Tien fight in their first tournament, absolute nail biter and they were as equally matched as can be.

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                                    • B
                                      Blissed @andre
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                                      @andre:

                                      He's factually wrong, at least from the point where Luffy is outclassed using Gears 3 and 4 until when gear 4 is used. I can sort of understand how he maybe could have thought they were equal beforehand, but there was no good evidence for it, especially with how easily Doflamingo took out Smoker.

                                      Just his performance alone in Marineford made me worried for Luffy, he always just had that kind of air about him. Then you see him fly for the first time, and yea, at the time I was very glad they had already left Punk Hazard.

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                                      • theackwardstation
                                        theackwardstation @King Cannon
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                                        @King:

                                        Until Gear 4th came into play, Doflamingo was completely outclassing Luffy in strength (Gear 2nd was too weak) and speed (Gear 3rd was too slow). He was very much portrayed as above Luffy's level until the latter pulled his trump card, at which point Luffy became laughably superior.

                                        The underdog dynamic is established before the fight even starts, so it's not about who was outclassing who after the fight started. The first question is: how were you perceiving the conflict since the beginning of the arc? Did you see Luffy as the weaker side who needed to overcome someone above his level?

                                        Dressrosa was one of the most ambiguous conflicts in the series, since I can imagine a very wide range of answers to this question. You'll find people who saw Luffy as the underdog and people who thought that Luffy had already surpassed that level because of the time skip.

                                        As for the fight itself, Gear 4th itself challenges the idea that Luffy was an underdog. He always had the power to win, even if in practice things went wrong.

                                        Besides that, I disagree with the notion that Doflamingo was outclassing Luffy just because of that dialogue line of Mingo dissing Luffy. People tend to ignore that Doflamingo is a liar and that he loves to bluff to get into the head of his enemies. What matters is that when we actually read the fight, like in chapter 782 (before Gear 4th), we see them trading blows equally, and we can check that Luffy made Doflamingo spit blood with his normal punches despite his claims that Luffy's punches were weak.

                                        !

                                        They were well matched againt each other. Maybe Doflamingo was a little bit better, but definitely not outclasing. The only reason Luffy was pressed to use Gear 4th so early was that Doflamingo had put a time limit on the fight because people would be slaughtered by the birdcage.

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                                        • StrawHatJedi
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                                          I don't honestly think Oda emphasizes the 'underdog' angle in most fights. Zoro was as infamous in the East Blue as any of the enemy Pirate Captains they faced. Luffy always felt evenly matched with his adversaries. I guess you could say he was an 'underdog' against Crocodile, one of the Seven Warlords. He had a type advantage fighting Eneru. Lucci was really powerful and defeated Luffy the first time they fought. Once Luffy revealed the gears, he and Lucci were very evenly matched.

                                          Oda tends to draw tension from the situation rather than a perceived difference in fighting class.

                                          More often, the narrative focus seems to be on Luffy being underestimated by his enemies. In a classic 'underdog' story like Rocky, the protagonist is underestimated by their opponent, yes. But importantly, the audience also recognizes that Rocky Balboa, an almost washed up boxer from South Philly, is punching above his weight in taking on the heavy weight champion of the world, Apollo Creed. There have been situations, like when Luffy first fought Crocodile, where the elevated status of the enemy is used to set reader expectation that Luffy is outclassed.

                                          More often, enemies underestimate Luffy to their own peril. In these cases, the reader feels like they're in on a secret that the enemy isn't. When Luffy throws down with a powerful opponent who looks down on Luffy, the more common reader response is to say "ooh boy, they're in for a surprise!" rather than "Wow, this enemy way outclasses Luffy! I have no idea how he can take on an opponent of this caliber!"

                                          Once Luffy took down a 'Warlord' class opponent in Crocodile, however, that 'underdog' status is sort of dissipated in the battles against Moria and Doflamingo. Sure, they are powerful opponents. Maybe more powerful than Crocodile. Maybe more powerful than Luffy. But Luffy isn't really an 'underdog' in the classic sense.

                                          Luffy was in way above his head during the entire Paramount War saga - and that was sort of the point. Luffy lost his crew. He lost his brother. It wasn't a story where the plucky underdog achieves victory against all odds. Survival was a miracle. Luffy may not have achieved victory in any major battles, but he did win the favor of many important allies, which allowed him to live to fight another day. The hand of fate guided Luffy, an ant, through the hurricane of the paramount war. He failed to achieve his goal of saving Ace, but he proved his moral character to a number of important allies who will likely ultimately help to change the world some day.

                                          Doflamingo was more powerful than Luffy pre-Gear 4, but I don't really think Oda drew much tension from the fact that Luffy was an 'underdog'. The reader wasn't really wondering 'how can Luffy possibly fight a Warlord of the Sea?' Oda didn't really draw any tension in the conflict from 'disparity in class' between the protagonist and the opponent. So, sure, maybe Doflamingo was more powerful, but I never considered Luffy an 'underdog' in the Dressrosa arc.

                                          Luffy does feel like an underdog against Kaido and Big Mom. I think the fact that so many readers don't think Luffy is ready to cross that threshold yet is testament to the fact that Luffy is an 'underdog' in the battle against the two Emperors. The reader response when Luffy says he's going to whoop two Emperors and Linlin responds derisively, the reader doesn't think 'just you wait until you see what I know Luffy is capable of.' Instead, the reader is more inclined to agree with Big Mom in thinking Luffy is too early to pit himself against such a powerful enemy.

                                          I don't really think that the series as a whole can be defined as a series of conflicts in which Luffy has been perpetually framed as an underdog. There have been specific instances where Oda derived tension from that particular dynamic; in Alabasta, during the Paramount War, and again in facing Linlin and Kaido.

                                          Personally, I don't think Oda is ready for Luffy to take down an Emperor solo yet. There are narrative reasons to think Luffy won't be alone in the battle against Kaido. We'll probably see a few flashes of the monstrously strong person Luffy will soon become in this fight, but ultimately it will be a team effort. It allows people to think, 'wow, Luffy's almost there!', while also still showing that he's a few steps below Roger and Whitebeard in their prime.

                                          So to summarize, there's a difference between Luffy fighting someone who is seemingly more powerful and Luffy being an underdog. The 'underdog' dynamic is a narrative tool for creating tension which Oda has used on occasion, but isn't really pervasive in the series as a whole. There are frequent instances of opponents underestimating Luffy, but as his star has risen, there are just as many instances of his reputation preceding him.

                                          Luffy, Zoro, Nami, Usopp, Sanji, Chopper, Robin, Franky, Brook, Jimbei, Carrot, Vivi, Smoker

                                          "ONE PIECE, IT EXISTS" - The Great Pirate Edward Newgate

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                                          • C
                                            Claudio
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                                            Out of all their exchanges, that page is the only one were Luffy lands blows on Doflamingo on his own before "gear 4".

                                            Not to mention that Law weakened him beforehand.

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                                            • King Cannon
                                              King Cannon @theackwardstation
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                                              @theackwardstation:

                                              The underdog dynamic is established before the fight even starts, so it's not about who was outclassing who after the fight started. The first question is: how were you perceiving the conflict since the beginning of the arc? Did you see Luffy as the weaker side who needed to overcome someone above his level?

                                              Yes. Gear 4th changed that, but then Doflamingo pulled the Awakening card and it became a more even battle.

                                              Mind you, this is more because Doflamingo had some really ridiculous applications of his fruit. Clones, first aid regeneration, Awakening, puppet controlling…

                                              It probably doesn't help that Luffy needed a bunch of bystanders not only to help him recover his haki, but also to keep the birdcage in place. And it wasn't properly explained how Luffy managed to escape Parasite since he just changed into Gear 4th without muscle biting. I was actually surprised how lenient Doflamingo was as it's more or less confirmed he could've justsped up the cage's contraction whenever he wanted.

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                                              • StrawHatJedi
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                                                I'd also say that Oda is less interested in drawing one sided battles. Even when Luffy is outclassed by his opponents, he usually does a good job of making readers believe that it is possible for Luffy to achieve victory.

                                                I'd compare to Bleach where, Kubo typically draws one sided fights. Typically, one party overwhelmingly dominates until a dramatic reversal (new form or technique), which turns the tables and then the other party utterly dominates. The odds are always stacked overwhelmingly in favor of one party or the other. Sometimes the dramatic reversals occur more than once in a single battle. Which is also part of the reason why Kubo's fights take so many chapters (in addition to the large panel size). He spends a chapter showing the overwhelming strength of one character with a hint of the reversal at the end, then a chapter featuring the new form, transformation, technique, etc. Then a chapter of the other character controlling the battle. Sometimes more than one time with the same pair of characters.

                                                Even when Luffy or other members of the crew are framed as the underdog, Oda tends to draw them going blow for blow, even for a little while, before they falter or suffer defeat. This hasn't always been the case. Luffy lost in dramatic fashion to Crocodile, Lucci, and Magellan, for example.

                                                Luffy, Zoro, Nami, Usopp, Sanji, Chopper, Robin, Franky, Brook, Jimbei, Carrot, Vivi, Smoker

                                                "ONE PIECE, IT EXISTS" - The Great Pirate Edward Newgate

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                                                • theackwardstation
                                                  theackwardstation @Claudio
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                                                  @Claudio:

                                                  Out of all their exchanges, that page is the only one were Luffy lands blows on Doflamingo on his own before "gear 4".

                                                  That's true, yes, but Oda really rushed that fight. Most of what happened before Gear 4th was dialogue and distractions (Law, Trebol, etc), so we have to accept the few moments of actual brawling. More importantly, the simple fact that Luffy was making Mingo bleed questions the validity of the argument that Luffy's punches were weak.

                                                  –- Update From New Post Merge ---

                                                  @King:

                                                  Yes. Gear 4th changed that, but then Doflamingo pulled the Awakening card and it became a more even battle.

                                                  Mind you, this is more because Doflamingo had some really ridiculous applications of his fruit. Clones, first aid regeneration, Awakening, puppet controlling…

                                                  It probably doesn't help that Luffy needed a bunch of bystanders not only to help him recover his haki, but also to keep the birdcage in place. And it wasn't properly explained how Luffy managed to escape Parasite since he just changed into Gear 4th without muscle biting. I was actually surprised how lenient Doflamingo was as it's more or less confirmed he could've justsped up the cage's contraction whenever he wanted.

                                                  This is all very complicated. Unfortunately, that fight was probably one of the worst in the entire series, one of the reasons being because of how it failed to properly develop all the nuances that should have been part of it.

                                                  But I'm not arguing if Luffy was in fact stronger than Doflamingo or not. He was, but he wasn't, and it was mess. My discussion here is if Luffy was the underdog, which is a different conversation.

                                                  Vongola expressed very well my thoughts on the subject.

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                                                    Claudio @theackwardstation
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                                                    I just checked the chapter again and it turns out Luffy also landed a blow in the previous page; so 2 pages. 😆

                                                    Anyway, I think Luffy is now in the position against Kaido and Big Mom as he was against Doflamingo in Dressrosa before "gear 4". That is: he can hurt them but he still doesn't stand a chance of actually defeating them. He needs to "awaken" or pull out "gear 5" for that.

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                                                    • Deicide
                                                      Deicide @Claudio
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                                                      @Claudio:

                                                      I just checked the chapter again and it turns out Luffy also landed a blow in the previous page; so 2 pages. 😆

                                                      Anyway, I think Luffy is now in the position against Kaido and Big Mom as he was against Doflamingo in Dressrosa before "gear 4". That is: he can hurt them but he still doesn't stand a chance of actually defeating them. He needs to "awaken" or pull out "gear 5" for that.

                                                      Or Nightmare Luffy 2.0. :ninja: Kishishishi!

                                                      Wano predictions: There will be 5 acts; All Straw Hats will get fights, some in Act 4; Big Mom Pirates will arrive; Carrot will have her moment, but won't join; Yamato will be a Kouzuki samurai and Wano's Guardian; Shanks will visit Luffy in Act 5; Next arc is Mary Geoise.

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                                                      • RomanceDawn
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                                                        Anyone else really love Sundays or possibly Mondays where ever you are? Especially after a chapterless week? Feels like everything is reset and chapter possibilities and discussions could be endless.

                                                        Folks who read One Piece… Just better people. ¯\(ツ)/¯

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                                                        • Cockycent
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                                                          @romancedawn Yes, it's soothing and brings somewhat of an ease to my spirit. I'm still waiting for this Act to end, so I can reread the arc.

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                                                          • Kaworu
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                                                            Haven't read much of the recent posts about dogs or whatever, but bros… the time is almost here.
                                                            I'm so ready for the next chapter in all its glory.
                                                            Oda, I know you love to troll. Don't do it man. I know you've got that itching urge to go "You haven't eaaaaaarned this yet Odadadadada, here's a bunch of scattered events that aren't Kaido vs the Scabbards." Please don't do that. It's 2020. We need some hope.

                                                            Croc or Enel would never.

                                                            Wanna see the "ancient civilization destroyed" thing done really well? FFXIV did a great take on it. The bar's high for One Piece to beat.

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                                                            • Sereques
                                                              Sereques @King Cannon
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                                                              @King:

                                                              Yes. Gear 4th changed that, but then Doflamingo pulled the Awakening card and it became a more even battle.

                                                              He was using awakening before Luffy started using G4

                                                              IF YOU DIE, I'LL KILL YOU….

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                                                              • Cockycent
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                                                                Idk if it's the anime or a Youtuber's comments as the source for recent confusion, but i've seen a lot of discussion concerning Ryuo on Twitter and reddit. What I got from the manga was that those of Wano refer to CoA as Ryuo. Similar to how some in Skypiea refer to CoO as Mantra.

                                                                I've seen many tweets where Ryuo is debated on whether it's Haki in general or just one application of CoA that Luffy initially wanted to perform. It was so clear to me that I just don't get the confusion.

                                                                CoA = Ryuo because Hyo wasn't that understanding of CoO as he was for the principle and functioning of CoA. He even spoke on Ryuo as being able to coat swords with and was able to perform what Luffy wanted to do. So many examples in the writing that removes doubt on if Ryuo is Haki in general or just 1 application of CoA. It's neither. It is CoA.

                                                                • 1st application of CoA/Ryuo = coat yourself or other things w/ armor. I can be visible at tims w/ buso and also be plaguy for some DF users
                                                                • 2nd app = being able to project that armor to a certain part of the body like Sentomaru, 3 Admirals blocking WB and Hyo. Like slapping someone with a plate and the force can vary
                                                                • 3rd app = damage can be done below surface ie Rayleigh and Luffy with those collars. I believe that Sabo (even tho the names differ) did this to the CC arena and even said "everything has a core"

                                                                These were my thoughts and understanding as Luffy and Hyo went through the training. For the past 2 days, i've seen discussion and i think it may stem from the anime subtitles or some Youtuber not fully understanding it yet. Maybe it's just the anime, idk

                                                                A little bit away from that topic, but I believe the black lightning looking effects that we see from Ulti, Roger, Luffy, WB etc when clashing is more about the user's level of CoA and not the application.

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                                                                  John.Rambo @Captain M
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                                                                  @Captain:

                                                                  Kin got hit once by Doflamingo, who caught him off-guard while he was dealing with Law's wounds. Kaido has been hit once by Kin, who caught him in a surprise attack. Even the strongest fighters can still take a hit if they're properly distracted.

                                                                  All this powerlevel stuff is dumb in general but this is a particularly bad take.

                                                                  For once, I agree with you, your take is very bad.

                                                                  If you're going on a trip… where would you like to go?

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                                                                  • Captain M
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                                                                    [

                                                                    D](

                                                                    )esign process for the colour spread, for anyone curious about that kind of thing.

                                                                    Vivre Card Archive One Piece in One Piece Covers Compilation

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                                                                    • E
                                                                      Emilio @KaidoBoby
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                                                                      @KaidoBoby:

                                                                      like this?
                                                                      [qimg]https://i.ibb.co/VQvgm6p/0-2.jpg[/qimg]

                                                                      You rock! If anyone find it with a proper frame, I'll be happiest man on earth.

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                                                                      • flandrian15
                                                                        flandrian15 @Emilio
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                                                                        @Emilio:

                                                                        You rock! If anyone find it with a proper frame, I'll be happiest man on earth.

                                                                        Some serious Franky x Robin going on there…

                                                                        Remember, remember, the 5th of November

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                                                                        • Kdom
                                                                          Kdom @Cockycent
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                                                                          @Cockycent:

                                                                          I've seen many tweets where Ryuo is debated on whether it's Haki in general or just one application of CoA that Luffy initially wanted to perform. It was so clear to me that I just don't get the confusion.

                                                                          CoA = Ryuo because Hyo wasn't that understanding of CoO as he was for the principle and functioning of CoA. He even spoke on Ryuo as being able to coat swords with and was able to perform what Luffy wanted to do. So many examples in the writing that removes doubt on if Ryuo is Haki in general or just 1 application of CoA. It's neither. It is CoA.

                                                                          What I think is disturbing is that Kaidou speak of ryou instead of haki. I mean, he is not from Wano so why would he use a term from Wano ?
                                                                          Often when a foreign word is imported in a language, it changes its meaning slightly. For example a manga in Japan is a comic but in western countries it means a comic from Japan. So maybe that is what happened with ryou and from its original haki meaning, it now is specific to the specific application of CoA that allows to damage.
                                                                          I suppose it will be more clear in the future on Oda's intention on that word

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                                                                          • Cockycent
                                                                            Cockycent @Kdom
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                                                                            @Kdom:

                                                                            What I think is disturbing is that Kaidou speak of ryou instead of haki. I mean, he is not from Wano so why would he use a term from Wano ?
                                                                            Often when a foreign word is imported in a language, it changes its meaning slightly. For example a manga in Japan is a comic but in western countries it means a comic from Japan. So maybe that is what happened with ryou and from its original haki meaning, it now is specific to the specific application of CoA that allows to damage.
                                                                            I suppose it will be more clear in the future on Oda's intention on that word

                                                                            I forgot Kaido recently mentioned this. I think he's been around so long, he's used to it, but this could confuse things, yes

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                                                                            • otakufan
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                                                                              Kaidou's been based out of Wano for 25+ years at this point.

                                                                              Regardless of where he's originally from, I don't think it's unreasonable for him to have learned and use Wano's term for CoA haki, particularly when it pertains to Wano samurai.

                                                                              Without love, it cannot be seen.

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                                                                              • wolfwood
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                                                                                I mean he is specifically making a callback to what Oden did.

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                                                                                • Kaizoku_Ou
                                                                                  Kaizoku_Ou @RoboBlue
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                                                                                  @RoboBlue:

                                                                                  Lucci already did.

                                                                                  It's not that hard to imagine Luffy learning the Kamehameha and using it against Shenron in a big final beam struggle.

                                                                                  LOL he can just use Ryou on Leo Bazooka and then we have a Kamehameha😁

                                                                                  Zoro vs. Caesar

                                                                                  Don Noflamingo vs. Robowarden

                                                                                  Luffy vs Akainu (fan made manga)

                                                                                  The Birth of Frank aka FFotSDMDBeB: First fist of the Sea, DonMarimo DoBuggino exploring Bonesbeard.

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                                                                                    Piitan @Kaizoku_Ou
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                                                                                    @Kaizoku_Ou:

                                                                                    LOL he can just use Ryou on Leo Bazooka and then we have a Kamehameha😁

                                                                                    That would be copying Neptune :ninja:

                                                                                    Eh, fuck it.

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                                                                                      G_soildier
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                                                                                      @marcahi:

                                                                                      El capítulo fue genial, aunque One Piece se vuelve cada vez más pesado

                                                                                      De acuerdo. One piece es y va siguiendo siendo genial durante todo el transcurso de tiempo. Estoy disfrutando la guerra hasta ahora, con mucho ánimo.

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