You'd think we'd have seen something like Franky having a Jedi-like reaction where he senses, even from a great distance, that Sunny was lost.
Chapter 900: Bad End Musical (Break)
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You forgot the theory of this being a manifestation of Luffy's future sight. It would certainly give more satisfactory payoff to the sheer amount of time the arc spent on Luffy developing it (because it didn't honestly seem to make much of a difference in his fight with Katakuri).
Next chapter could be Luffy warning the crew that they are about to tank extensive damage, and that might give them a chance to mount a defense. That's one of the few ways this can play out without feeling quite as cheap, since the last probable fakeout we saw (of Luffy taking that spear attack) turned out not to be a fakeout at all.
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@Chrior:
I wouldn't go as far as "charred, waterlogged remains of the Sunny"
I don't think it can be otherwise considering the whole ship is seen burnt down, sinking. Literally only the top part of the main mast is above the sea. Strawhats are dead.
After parrying Big Mom and swearing to defend Sunny the Strawhats got defeated by Cannonballs and did nothing to defend themselves. DEAD.
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https://imgur.com/a/0VDrI
I don't think it can be otherwise considering the whole ship is seen burnt down, sinking. Literally only the top part of the main mast is above the sea. Strawhats are dead.
https://imgur.com/40f45f91-1de7-447c-8b16-1893fa38e281https://imgur.com/40f45f91-1de7-447c-8b16-1893fa38e281https://imgur.com/a/0VDrICue ending music. Curtain closes. End of One Piece. Tune in next month for the sequel: Two Piece, where we follow Buffy as he tries to surpass his father under the mentorship of Pirate King Zoro… Or not
Pell survived a nuke. I think the Straw Hats can survive cannon fire. The ship we see sinking could be the one sunk by the Queen Chanter in the previous page. It is obvious that the Straw Hats are not dead, and I think it is almost certain that the Sunny is not sunken either. Probably heavily damaged so it can undergo a makeover.
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:P My point exactly. Either we defend that the Sunny is burnt down to the ground and make up something to save the crew, or we start thinking about the ship being sunk not being the Sunny, which I posted about before in this thread! There's literally no identifying mark on the ship to confirm it's the Sunny. Remember how Oda gave us a cliffhanger on Zou of a possible "dead crew mate?" It just ended up being Brook. Puts this ship into perspective huh?
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Sorry if I sounded rude, but I really meant to use sarcasm as a way to make you look at your own argument from a different perspective.
No problem. :)
I could elaborate a wall of text about this issue but it seems Count Mario has done so already, as always. Shortly, I wanted to say that:
1. Sunny is a crewmate; not exactly like one of the Straw hats, but an essential friend who carries the crew throughout their journey. Having it be unceremoniously destroyed just like this and left behind is not what One Piece is about at all. The Straw Hats aren't about to sacrifice one of their own comrades to such a fate. Pedro was already enough of a sacrifice and he wasn't even a crew member (not to mention he didn't have long to live anyway; and the debate about him being truly dead isn't really over)!
Lots of things here. First, I will clarify again that I'm not gambling on Sunny's destruction, so we don't think that differently in many ways.
However, I'm pointing out that this alternative could lead to an interesting character development for Franky and the Strawhats. There's no definitive way Oda could handle this this, but it could surely be something new in the series, but I'll restrain from repeating myself again. At last, this circunstance could be seen as a welcome raise of stakes in the New World, even though I agree that One Piece is not about overcoming losses and losing friends. That said, I unfortunately don't call Sunny a crewmate, even if it had an the most important meaning ever. As Luffy once said: "people and ships are different things". We can disagree here, no problem.
Besides that, "having Sunny be unceremoniously destroyed" is not a finished event that goes emotionless just because it happened suddenly. It's just the structure that is inverted compared to Merry, since the conflict/drama happens after the death of the ship instead of before, which keeps things fresh. And, you know, destruction sometimes comes out of nowhere and that's the "beauty" of it. This suddenness is great for stories, as Oda knows, since that's what he did with Ace. So we can't underestimate the potential of how this event can be emotional and ceremonious to the story.
2. Sunny was born as a successor to Merry, even inheriting its (literal) spirit! We have been through the story of losing the ship and all of the drama that comes with it. Would this situation be exactly the same? No, of course not. Merry was broken many many times and shoddily repaired by Usopp until it could no longer continue sailing. In a certain sense, Merry was a metaphor for Usopp himself and his position in the crew, a 'tool' for his character development. The Sunny, on the other hand, is Franky's masterpiece, intricately tied to his dream. Which leads to…
About inheriting Merry's literal spirit, I have my doubts. Don't have a good translation available right now, but my interpretation was always that Sunny was inheriting Merry's will (which, btw, is the main theme of One Piece), not his literal spirit. Merry's soul is in heaven. Sunny's got its own spirit. If Sunny was Merry's reincarnation, it would lose its own sense of individuality and even lessen Franky's creation, his masterpiece.
3. Sunny being destroyed is not an obstacle to Franky that must be surpassed to realize his dream. It is the destruction of his dream. He wanted to build a ship to surpass Oro Jackson, one that could carry the Pirate King around the world and which would be maintained by Franky as the shipwright. The Sunny was built with the best and rarest wood in the world, from Adam Tree; which was bought with the money the Franky Family stole from the Straw Hats, essentially meaning that the efforts of the crew in previous arcs (including Merry) rewarded them with the construction of the Thousand Sunny. Its destruction would mean a way way tougher blow than the loss of Merry. It would be a defeat even worse than Sabaody, in the sense that they can't recover that piece of their adventures in any way. Would it be a nice dramatic twist? Yes, it would. But this is not the type of story One Piece is. This is a series where our main cast sets out on a big adventure to make their lives' dreams come true (and where barely anyone dies in the present time).
All good points.
Nonetheless, I disagree that losing someone/something means "can't recover a piece of that adventure". Maybe we have different perspectives about life, but for me we don't lose the past (unless we're talking about amnesia and the destruction of historic archives). The memories keep alive and the adventures still hold their meaning for us, because it was the same journay that brought us here to where we are now. In other words, I think you gave a much harsher meaning to Sunny's destruction with that sentence. In a series that talk about wills that never die and that people are alive as long as they're remembered, you can't say that "we can't recover a piece of that adventure in any way".
It's for this same reason that nobody can say that Franky's dream is dead. Dreams don't die in One Piece. Not because people are infallible, but because they (or those who inherit their will) keep going further.
My idea is that the ship is heavily damaged and not destroyed. Not only this is also really bad and a tough reversal of fortunes (how can the crew escape with a badly damaged ship?), it is also a hurdle in Franky's dream. Remember, he wants to maintain the ship as they sail. So far, he has done nothing of the sort, unlike Usopp back in the day. This is his chance to prove he still has his shipwright skills and to take another step towards his dream, by taking this chance to improve the Sunny. Not only that, someone in this thread posted the time we spent with the Going Merry and the time we have been with the Thousand Sunny. It turns out that the Sunny already surpassed Merry. A final makeover to make things fresh wouldn't hurt at all, I think. A new design for the final strech of the series. Sounds good to me. Not something radical, but something new.
That's what I believe will happen too. :)
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Remember how Oda gave us a cliffhanger on Zou of a possible "dead crew mate?" It just ended up being Brook. Puts this ship into perspective huh?
Is that really on the same level lol? No one was (At least I hope not) fooled by that for a second, especially when one of the crewmates is a skeleton.
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Is that really on the same level lol? No one was (At least I hope not) fooled by that for a second, especially when one of the crewmates is a skeleton.
People weren't accepting anyone's death ofc, but my point is that it was a stupid cliffhanger for Oda to give us when it ended up being just Brook as a skeleton. That's why I'm saying this cliffhanger can be just as dumb.
Also then why are you fooled by the destruction of the Sunny? The panel shows the ship is sank, destroyed, below water, on fire. Nothing can realistically save that.
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@K.:
- Nami/Brooke's illusion: Nami could have made the Big Mom's ships look like the Sunny. I find that if this were the case, Oda would have showed at least a panel of Nami with her staff, or with Zeus, to build up. At least that, not even seeing ships getting turned. The setup with Oven boiling the sea is there, but we should have seen a foreshadowing with Nami.
It wouldn't be the first time Oda shows a very warped fragment of a larger truth for the sake of suspense, only to reveal what really happened several chapters later. Law's "death" in Dressrosa comes to mind, for example (or Brook and "the corpse of your comrade" in Zou, as someone else mentioned).
Here in chapter 900 the only certitude, I would say, is we saw the Sunny facing the Chanter in one panel. Followed in a later panel by a ship fully engulfed in an explosion as the Chanter fires again. Followed some panels later by a ship (possibly a different one) sinking in a sea of flames. Given how those panels are drawn and how Oda handled similar situations in the past, I'm even reluctant to call that conclusive evidence that the Sunny took any hit at all. -
That's what I believe will happen too. :)
Ohhh kay. All very good points there. Some of which I disagree with, but it's pointless to keep arguing. From the moment you mentioned that you weren't actually banking on the Sunny's destruction and that was more of a "what if…" situation, I can more easily agree with your viewpoint. As I also said, the situation would be different and bring a new type of drama to the table. But that is not the kind of series Oda is writing, I think.
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People weren't accepting anyone's death ofc, but my point is that it was a stupid cliffhanger for Oda to give us when it ended up being just Brook as a skeleton. That's why I'm saying this cliffhanger can be just as dumb.
Also then why are you fooled by the destruction of the Sunny? The panel shows the ship is sank, destroyed, below water, on fire. Nothing can realistically save that.
I don't recall saying the Sunny was destroyed. Only thing I'm saying is that it's real. It's just left to be seen how bad the damage is, as well as what their next move will be regarding them attempting to escape.
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I don't recall saying the Sunny was destroyed. Only thing I'm saying is that it's real. It's just left to be seen how bad the damage is, as well as what their next move will be regarding them attempting to escape.
The panel shows the ship is sank, destroyed, below water, on fire. Nothing can realistically save that.
Do you not agree? https://imgur.com/a/0VDrI And how do you propose they escape?
I honestly would say if you want the Sunny to have survived, that panel can't be real/can't be Sunny because that ship is gone. But would gladly hear theories about it and would love to hear from you if you think this image doesn't show an unreversably ruined ship, because I'm just as lost as you after this chapter :P
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INFINITE TSUKUYOMI! :-)
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Do you not agree? https://imgur.com/a/0VDrI And how do you propose they escape?
I honestly would say if you want the Sunny to have survived, that panel can't be real/can't be Sunny because that ship is gone. But would gladly hear theories about it and would love to hear from you if you think this image doesn't show an unreversably ruined ship, because I'm just as lost as you after this chapter :P
Yea, I've seen the panel lol
Thing is, the "It's fake!" theories just have too many holes in them for me to find any of them particularly credible. The best one is probably Nami using Mirage Tempo, if only because of the earlier ship that got destroyed. But believing that means we have to assume Nami's abilities are that advanced to begin with. And even then, it doesn't explain their Jolly Roger's condition, or why a mirage should really work when they're completely surrounded.
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Sorry (not really) to whine more but this arc has made me hate Jinbei. The whole time I'm just like "why are you here". I don't feel that he is adding anything to the narrative. I don't at all see why he postponed joining for so long only to show up here when it just so happens that the Straw Hats are here. It's just kind of awkward and it doesn't feel planned. I can't believe people are even arguing about who will be the next crew member when there isn't even development for the crew members that we already have (like chopper who is barely here this arc).
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SThe whole time I'm just like "why are you here".
Because he works (Well, he did anyways) for Big Mom.
I don't feel that he is adding anything to the narrative.
He's saved the Straw Hats several times in this arc. Even outright quit right in Big Mom's face, showing him as one of many examples of how Big Mom's forces was crumbling from the inside.
I don't at all see why he postponed joining for so long only to show up here when it just so happens that the Straw Hats are here. It's just kind of awkward and it doesn't feel planned.
For so long? In-universe, it hasn't been that long since the Fishman Island arc. And I don't know how it doesn't feel planned. Jinbe works for her, meaning him currently residing in her territory isn't exactly some surprising detail. We even got a cover story of him delivering a poneglyph to Big Mom, showing you how he ended up here to begin with…
I can't believe people are even arguing about who will be the next crew member when there isn't even development for the crew members that we already have (like chopper who is barely here this arc).
I don't see what that has to do with predicting who the next member will be.
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@Galaxy:
Well, it's been a fun run.
I wonder what Oda will serialize next?
Guess it's back to the Character Sheet. Sucks to be lv1 again, maaaaan! All my STUFF!
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Sorry (not really) to whine more but this arc has made me hate Jinbei. The whole time I'm just like "why are you here". I don't feel that he is adding anything to the narrative. I don't at all see why he postponed joining for so long only to show up here when it just so happens that the Straw Hats are here. It's just kind of awkward and it doesn't feel planned. I can't believe people are even arguing about who will be the next crew member when there isn't even development for the crew members that we already have (like chopper who is barely here this arc).
Jimbe's postponement in Fishmen Island was probably due to the author's preference of letting Luffy get a little more name in the New World before adding an ex-Shichibukai to the crew. Jimbe would be too much of an overwhelming presence before defeating Doflamingo. Even his bounty was bigger than Luffy's at the time.
Another reason is that, although you see no merit in Oda's writing anymore, the whole relationship between Jimbe and Big Mom opened a nice scenario to reinforce his tenacity, leading to some nice moments of him showing his commitment to Luffy (chapter 863), therefore making an epic entrance into the crew. I'm also liking how distinct his whole process of joining is from the other main characters, keeping things fresh.
Another reason is that his presence in WCI was a necessary plot convenience as another "out of nowhere" help for the Strawhats in order to succeed in their crazy plans of invading a Yonkou territory. Even the presence of his ex-crew there, the Sun Pirates, was crucial to harm Big Mom's security system. As we know, Oda had plans for Totland since Fishmen Island, because of the Tamatebako and else, so it's not coincidental that he established Jimbe's subordination to Big Mom at that time for this to happen now (right after Doflamingo's arc).
Besides all these reasons, "why are you here?" is a question you can ask to most Strawhat in any given arc. They happen to just be there. Why? Because they are a part of an overarching story told through small stories. And I'm not even sure you should ask this to Jimbe during this arc… his presence was really relevant to make this whole escape more believable and even to link some plots (the alliance with Capone, for example).
Jimbe is not being developed? Well, the main characters of One Piece are developed in their respective arcs and then become mostly static, with fewer exceptions.
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Jinbe's goal at the end of the Fishman Island Arc was extremely well-planned, at least for what he knew. He had a lot of responsibility as the captain of the crew connecting Fishman Island to Big Mom and one wrong move would result in everything he loved being destroyed. He already had a lot on the table when planning to sever ties with Big Mom; to outright associate himself with the Straw Hats would just put them in danger as well if Big Mom didn't take kindly to his request.
Then this arc it turned out Big Mom is even more unreasonable than he thought possible and he wouldn't be the only one to die if he leaves. He did craft a way to keep his comrades safe in Chap. 863, but then unwittingly broke the system and caused Big Mom to go berserk. At that point, there was no objectively best option left and he threw his lot in with the Straw Hats. Jinbe's story in this arc shed quite a lot of light on Big Mom's duplicitous nature and, as Blissed said, he is probably the chief example of how her actions ultimately make the Straw Hats pretty magnetic and weaken her in the process. Plus, he's facilitated some fun and much-needed naval warfare.
Also, from an out of universe standpoint, him joining in Fishman Island would have done him no favors in Punk Hazard and Dressrosa where the major focus was on pirate alliances. With the pieces for Wano mostly established and set in place, now is a considerably better time to demonstrate Jinbe's worth as a crewmate while the gears of war are slowed down.
Spoiler:
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@Kaido:
Jinbe's story in this arc shed quite a lot of light on Big Mom's duplicitous nature
Oh, that's very true.
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When the next chapter comes and we go to Wano with Zorro for like 99 chapters without knowing what happened on luffy's side, people are gonna lose their minds!
Good call. After reading this I can't shake the certainty that this DEFINITELY will happen!
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Was looking at the last pages because, well, that's what we gonna have for a while.
Just realized the chances of a mirage are veeeery slim because we actually manage to see the Sunny from front and behind as it burns:
When the Sunny is hit, we see it from behind (it and the Mama Chanter were both moving towards each other), then the "camera" moves and we see it from the front (POV being right next to the Chanter).
(EDIT: Actually, the thing I marked as the Chanter is probably a Tarte. But still the position of the Germa castle gives we are seeing the Sunny from the front).We can basically see the ship in flames from all sides in those two panels and there isn't any other ship right next to it. The Tarte already managed to surround them, but they don't see to be too close (also, as some mentioned before, they look nothing like the Sunny).
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snip
snip
@Kaido:
Jinbe's goal at the end of the Fishman Island Arc was extremely well-planned, at least for what he knew. He had a lot of responsibility as the captain of the crew connecting Fishman Island to Big Mom and one wrong move would result in everything he loved being destroyed. He already had a lot on the table when planning to sever ties with Big Mom; to outright associate himself with the Straw Hats would just put them in danger as well if Big Mom didn't take kindly to his request.
Alright, I concede that I was totally presumptuous in doubting Jinbei's inclusion in the arc outright. He did try to do the honorable thing and I never thought that he broke character. Him standing up to Big Mom is one of the more memorable moments of the arc for me. I think I'm just in a state where I'm debating with myself things I would have cut from the arc, for whatever reason. I still can't put my finger on it though, but even though Jinbei is one of all time favorite characters, I did find him saving Luffy and Nami from the book to reek just a tad of deus ex machina. Maybe I imagined a grander moment when Jinbei would have joined the crew again, since he's such a powerful character and has a special connection with Luffy - I think I was expecting him to not really join until the final arc, and I was totally okay with that. Still, it's not really fair to cast so much ire on the story for not playing out just because it's not how I would do it. There are way more legitimate concerns with WCI than Jinbei's inclusion.
It's actually still possible that he won't join yet, but that'd be the biggest case of blue fishman balls imaginable. He is noticeably absent from the colorspread.
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After hearing the One Piece Podcast take on the chapter, I've been getting more and more interested in hearing Big Mom's song put to music. The way Stephen translated it, and keeping in mind the Disney-esque song bit in the most recent anime episode, I'm definitely getting a Sherman Brothers kinda vibe, that maybe gets faster and more Danny Elfman as it goes. Either way, it's fun to try and figure it out in my head while I'm reading it.
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After hearing the One Piece Podcast take on the chapter, I've been getting more and more interested in hearing Big Mom's song put to music. The way Stephen translated it, and keeping in mind the Disney-esque song bit in the most recent anime episode, I'm definitely getting a Sherman Brothers kinda vibe, that maybe gets faster and more Danny Elfman as it goes. Either way, it's fun to try and figure it out in my head while I'm reading it.
I wonder if Oda worked with a composer for that song or if he just wrote some lyrics.
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Huh did anyone think it might be Luffy Observation Haki finally evolving and showing him what's about to happen? That a pretty common theory I keep hearing elsewhere if they won't buy the Pudding one.
Get nuts or go crazy trying.
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Huh did anyone think it might be Luffy Observation Haki finally evolving and showing him what's about to happen? That a pretty common theory I keep hearing elsewhere if they won't buy the Pudding one.
Doesn't he already have the ability though? And I'd think getting shot down with cannonballs is something anyone could see coming in that situation, Observation Haki or no.
Spoiler:
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franky buildinhg another ship wouldn't invalidate his dream since his dream is to build the ship of the king of pirates,which he would still do if he builds a third ship…
i'm not saying the sunny is destroyed, there's nothing that makes complete sense in the last pages of this chapter, but the end of the sunny would not be the end of franky's dream.
if anything the tangerines on the sunny are more irrepleaceable for nami than the sunny is for franky's dream...
Yes his dream was to build a ship for King of Pirates and he did that with Sunny, a ship that goes round the world and known as the ship of dreams, his dream is not to keep building replacements and calling them ship of dreams. During the Timeskip, his own task was to learn the skills to make Sunny conquer the seas and not to build several copies of Sunny. How Legendary will Oro Jackson have been if all Roger had to do was to return to Tom-san whenever he breaks his current Oro Jackson.
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Yes his dream was to build a ship for King of Pirates and he did that with Sunny, a ship that goes round the world and known as the ship of dreams, his dream is not to keep building replacements and calling them ship of dreams. During the Timeskip, his own task was to learn the skills to make Sunny conquer the seas and not to build several copies of Sunny. How Legendary will Oro Jackson have been if all Roger had to do was to return to Tom-san whenever he breaks his current Oro Jackson.
As long as the keel isn't broken, he can rebuild the Sunny (with improvements) without it becoming a new ship.
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As long as the keel isn't broken, he can rebuild the Sunny (with improvements) without it becoming a new ship.
I still don't see how people see this as feasible…
@.access:
Was looking at the last pages because, well, that's what we gonna have for a while.
Why wouldn't Oda show us CLEARLY the Strawhats flag on those ship panels? There's no point in building mistery if everyone already assumes it's the Sunny being hit, so why wouldn't he give us a panel of the Sunny's Lion face sinking? Something else? There's no buildup to Sunny's death/failure as a dream ship?
Yea, I've seen the panel lol
But you didn't answer me :P does that panel not mean that ship is completely destroyed?
Yes his dream was to build a ship for King of Pirates and he did that with Sunny, a ship that goes round the world and known as the ship of dreams, his dream is not to keep building replacements and calling them ship of dreams. During the Timeskip, his own task was to learn the skills to make Sunny conquer the seas and not to build several copies of Sunny. How Legendary will Oro Jackson have been if all Roger had to do was to return to Tom-san whenever he breaks his current Oro Jackson.
Exactly. Also go read Count Mario's posts which expand on this.
I can imagine Zoro "we're in the middle of fighting Kaido and you go and break our ship?!" lols
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I honestly would say if you want the Sunny to have survived, that panel can't be real/can't be Sunny because that ship is gone.
Like the chunk of Luffy's abdomen was gone?
Whether that's the Sunny or not, it is not possibile to state the amount of damage the ship in those panels has taken. Expecially considering what manga this is, the only thing we can assume is that it is enough to make it sink.
I'd also say that's probably an intentional choice of the author, to keep us questioning "is that the Sunny or not?". If that ship was clearly shown to be destroyed I don't think there would be this many pages of discussion about it. -
Huh did anyone think it might be Luffy Observation Haki finally evolving and showing him what's about to happen? That a pretty common theory I keep hearing elsewhere if they won't buy the Pudding one.
I will keep cosigning this theory anytime I see it, until the masses finally believe! It's by far the least convoluted option to get out of this scenario, it's something that's already been established in the story, and for those who thought that Luffy's fight with Katakuri had no stakes or impact on the larger plot: They should be made the most happy.
Do you not agree? https://imgur.com/a/0VDrI And how do you propose they escape?
I honestly would say if you want the Sunny to have survived, that panel can't be real/can't be Sunny because that ship is gone. But would gladly hear theories about it and would love to hear from you if you think this image doesn't show an unreversably ruined ship, because I'm just as lost as you after this chapter :P
Thank you! I know debate is fun and we have a LONG wait until the next chapter. But seriously: That ship? The one we see in the second to last panel? That ship was DESTRUCTED!!! The flames and explosion encompass EVERY part of it. And the damn thing sinks IN PIECES. That are still on fire, FCOL! The ship didn't come apart due to fire; it came apart from the initial explosion. I mean, that's just based on the information given to us in the chapter.
FURTHERMORE: The Strawhats were all on deck. IF it were possible to survive an explosion like that, they are all certainly too unconscious to drag all the individual pieces of that flaming wreckage through the water.
Yo, there was a reason that the "Spearfishing Luffy" scene didn't show Katakuri gauging a hole through Luffy's chest: It had to be at least believable that he could survive if the scene turned out to NOT be a vision (which it wasn't). Oda would not have drawn the Sunny exploding and burning down THAT thoroughly, if he wanted to leave some possibility that they could all survive and escape with it afterwards.
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Based on what we know the crew can do, there is no way the last page is real. The same ship shot sunny 2 years ago and not only did they stop the cannonballs but also send them right back at the bm's ship. And now you also got luffy that can stops cannonballs with his body and sends them back. Oh yeah, they also got jimbei too now.
And the pudding thing doesn't make sense at all, how would that ever work.
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Thank you! I know debate is fun and we have a LONG wait until the next chapter. But seriously: That ship? The one we see in the second to last panel? That ship was DESTRUCTED!!! The flames and explosion encompass EVERY part of it. And the damn thing sinks IN PIECES. That are still on fire, FCOL! The ship didn't come apart due to fire; it came apart from the initial explosion. I mean, that's just based on the information given to us in the chapter.
Look closely again. Sunny is not in pieces, but only sinking. What looks like rubble (in the last panel) is the top of the two masts while the rest of the ship is underwater.
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Do you not agree? https://imgur.com/a/0VDrI And how do you propose they escape?
I honestly would say if you want the Sunny to have survived, that panel can't be real/can't be Sunny because that ship is gone. But would gladly hear theories about it and would love to hear from you if you think this image doesn't show an unreversably ruined ship, because I'm just as lost as you after this chapter :P
This reminds me of why I thought katakuri didn't hit luffy in 892
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
@uniaka:
Based on what we know the crew can do, there is no way the last page is real. The same ship shot sunny 2 years ago and not only did they stop the cannonballs but also send them right back at the bm's ship. And now you also got luffy that can stops cannonballs with his body and sends them back. Oh yeah, they also got jimbei too now.
And the pudding thing doesn't make sense at all, how would that ever work.
Element of surprise and maybe it was their main cannon
Chapter 437 Discussion after franky decides to join the Strawhats:
So who think Usopp is inside that duffelbag?
H x H Chimera Ant Arc / OP Manga Spoiler
Spoiler:
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@Long:
Element of surprise and maybe it was their main cannon
Element of surprise when luffy's final battle this arc was about him Learning how to see the future? And sanji also specialises at CoO, so no.
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Oda would not have drawn the Sunny exploding and burning down THAT thoroughly, if he wanted to leave some possibility that they could all survive and escape with it afterwards.
I think that's precisely where he could play his tricks. I fully agree that the ship we see in these two panels is hit by the full force of the Chanter's cannons and later sinks beyond repair. BUT, there isn't any evidence that it actually is the Sunny other than panel framing and the floating flag - both of which can be used to mislead the reader. We see on panel the silhouette of a ship that resembles the Sunny, but it is fully engulfed in the explosion at first and later in flames and smoke. Had Oda wanted these shots to be without any ambiguity, he could have drawn unmistakable parts of the Sunny visible through the fire or bursting away as debris from the explosion. Except he didn't.
So here we are. I'm not saying one option is likelier, or better, than the other, but if at any point Oda wants to troll us and go "haha fooled ya readers that wasn't the Sunny trololol", all the pieces are set.
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But you didn't answer me :P does that panel not mean that ship is completely destroyed?
Not really? Like hell, in this same arc we had a previous moment where people thought Luffy getting stabbed was far worse than it actually was.
@uniaka:
Element of surprise when luffy's final battle this arc was about him Learning how to see the future? And sanji also specialises at CoO, so no.
If Oda didn't use the FS fake-out with the Mogura stabbing, when Luffy wasn't yet completely exhausted, and was literally learning how to improve his CoO, even ft. a Rayleigh cameo, then I don't see him doing it now. That was like the perfect moment to show the readers that he'll be doing that from time to time, yet he didn't.
Also, if he's going to use future sight, then why do we have an earlier panel of him pointing towards Big Mom's ship? Also, again, he's in no condition to properly defend himself or his crew. It'd be a little awkward for Oda to make the resolution to all of this be where Luffy tells them that they're about to get shot at, and then they just… take it from there I guess. At that point you may as well just cut out the middleman and just have Sanji, Jinbe, etc. defend the ship without Luffy needing to say anything.
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Look closely again. Sunny is not in pieces, but only sinking. What looks like rubble (in the last panel) is the top of the two masts while the rest of the ship is underwater.
I'm willing to concede that it MIGHT not be in pieces, mostly because it's really difficult to determine whether it's still whole or not. I was working off of the fact that the ship was hit by cannons, which have been shown to have at least SOME kind of concussive force in this universe. The damage you're talking about would be more like if it had been engulfed by a flamethrower. But there I go putting real-world physics into One Piece, and that never ends well for anybody…
I think that's precisely where he could play his tricks. I fully agree that the ship we see in these two panels is hit by the full force of the Chanter's cannons and later sinks beyond repair. BUT, there isn't any evidence that it actually is the Sunny other than panel framing and the floating flag - both of which can be used to mislead the reader. We see on panel the silhouette of a ship that resembles the Sunny, but it is fully engulfed in the explosion at first and later in flames and smoke. Had Oda wanted these shots to be without any ambiguity, he could have drawn unmistakable parts of the Sunny visible through the fire or bursting away as debris from the explosion. Except he didn't.
So here we are. I'm not saying one option is likelier, or better, than the other, but if at any point Oda wants to troll us and go "haha fooled ya readers that wasn't the Sunny trololol", all the pieces are set.
That IS at least plausible, but only out of context. In context, you have to look at the position of the Sunny to the Chanter immediately before the explosion; the fact that there are no other ships nearby after the Chanter destroys the first friendly tartship; and how the flag could've possibly sustained those burns, come undone from the mast, then fell into the water super-dramatically. It is a little suspicious that so much care was put into NOT showing distinctive Sunny features, but Oda's not THIS bad at trolling. Except for that one guy who was randomly asleep in Sanji's bed when…
...Okay, he's USUALLY not this bad at trolling...
SN: I was rereading earlier chapters and read through Big Mom's flashback again--and god did it make me HAAAAAAATE the little cretin!!! I'm so mad Mountainbeard didn't run the little brat through with his sword after she passed out from eating Semla as if she DIDN'T just set fire to the villiage and kill a famed giant warrior. Ungrateful little sh*t...
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Is it possible Franky installed an emergency sinking mechanism where the bottom of the ship opens and allows for the ship to dive, submarine style, in case of emergency? It would be no problem to have a reversal system installed to float them back to the surface, so maybe the Sunny was under the water, at least partially, and the damage was confined to the parts above deck.
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I still don't see how people see this as feasible…
In Water 7 they clearly said that you could rebuild any ship as long as you throw enough money at it, and the keel isn't broken. They specifically said that the keel was the only thing that wasn't fixable.
Purely coincidence
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Is it possible Franky installed an emergency sinking mechanism where the bottom of the ship opens and allows for the ship to dive, submarine style, in case of emergency? It would be no problem to have a reversal system installed to float them back to the surface, so maybe the Sunny was under the water, at least partially, and the damage was confined to the parts above deck.
Interesting idea but we knew franky likes to do a big reveal of his upgrades and wouldn't have shown anyone until it's time for him to impress them, so unless it's an automatically deployed system, even if they had it, nobody on board would know about it
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@Long:
This reminds me of why I thought katakuri didn't hit luffy in 892
How? It would be similar only if we were shown someone's torso getting stabbed in the heart with no strawhat to identify Luffy. That's what that ship is, a blown up torso with no scar or strawhat. With people on it.
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How? It would be similar only if we were shown someone's torso getting stabbed in the heart with no strawhat to identify Luffy. That's what that ship is, a blown up torso with no scar or strawhat. With people on it.
It's similar in that the severity of the damage from what we're seeing looks bad enough to the point where it's nearly singlehandedly convincing people that it just can't possibly be real. That Oda would never go there. Just like how people convinced themselves that there is no way Oda would let Luffy get struck that badly from Katakuri's Mogura spear. Now people are basically doing the same thing with the Sunny.
But just like with the spear, I wouldn't be surprised if Oda reveals that the damage is not as bad as this chapter has made it out to be.
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It's similar in that the severity of the damage from what we're seeing looks bad enough to the point where it's nearly singlehandedly convincing people that it just can't possibly be real. That Oda would never go there. Just like how people convinced themselves that there is no way Oda would let Luffy get struck that badly from Katakuri's Mogura spear. Now people are basically doing the same thing with the Sunny.
But just like with the spear, I wouldn't be surprised if Oda reveals that the damage is not as bad as this chapter has made it out to be.
I mean, I get what you're saying but I'm arguing that's it's not similar. In Luffy's case, it was as bad as it appeared and we were shown it was Luffy without a doubt! I wasn't browsing these forums then, but all I thought was it was a big hit. We've seen Whitebeard fighting without half his face, but not a ship burnt, destroyed and sank good to sail. What could be worse for a ship than that panel? I literally couldn't draw you a ship more destroyed than the one shown in that panel ahaha. And imo Oda hid the flags and Sunny's face on those panels for some reason. If he wanted to shock the readers he'd leave them there, or maybe he just wants us to doubt it really was Sunny and that's the twist hah
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I mean, I get what you're saying but I'm arguing that's it's not similar. In Luffy's case, it was as bad as it appeared and we were shown it was Luffy without a doubt! I wasn't browsing these forums then, but all I thought was it was a big hit. We've seen Whitebeard fighting without half his face, but not a ship burnt, destroyed and sank good to sail. What could be worse for a ship than that panel? I literally couldn't draw you a ship more destroyed than the one shown in that panel ahaha. And imo Oda hid the flags and Sunny's face on those panels for some reason. If he wanted to shock the readers he'd leave them there, or maybe he just wants us to doubt it really was Sunny and that's the twist hah
Actually there WAS some doubt at the end of that chapter where it was justifiably speculated that it was a vision of Luffy's via Observation Haki that he was viewing what would happen to him if he didn't dodge it, a la his vision of his arms being lopped off by Mihawk the first time he used Haki. So while it turned out not to be that, it was understandable how it easily could have been given what was going on at the time. Plus Oda's pulling out numerous tropes here like the 'damage not being as bad as what was shown in the previous chapter/episode' and 'enemy wanting a fair fight so they heal/cripple themselves to balance things out'. No reason he can't do the same with the ship's predicament.
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Actually there WAS some doubt at the end of that chapter where it was justifiably speculated that it was a vision of Luffy's via Observation Haki that he was viewing what would happen to him if he didn't dodge it, a la his vision of his arms being lopped off by Mihawk the first time he used Haki. So while it turned out not to be that, it was understandable how it easily could have been given what was going on at the time. Plus Oda's pulling out numerous tropes here like the 'damage not being as bad as what was shown in the previous chapter/episode' and 'enemy wanting a fair fight so they heal/cripple themselves to balance things out'. No reason he can't do the same with the ship's predicament.
True but it beong ch 900 I cant see it all be "just a dream of big mom" and the strawhats escape in 901. It has to have consequences and not be skippable
Chapter 437 Discussion after franky decides to join the Strawhats:
So who think Usopp is inside that duffelbag?
H x H Chimera Ant Arc / OP Manga Spoiler
Spoiler:
