You can see he has just has a scorch mark in that chapter too.
Chapter 900: Bad End Musical (Break)
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What does Adam's wood even is in the end ? we just know it's special, but that's it
Also, that's one hell of a canon, and the ship looks sunk yeah
Adam tree survive on a war torn Island, even if it rain cannon balls, the tree survive. It's the strongest tree in the world.
If sunny sank, that means Franky didn't achieve his dream. I don't see how that makes any sense.
IF YOU DIE, I'LL KILL YOU….
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Red Hawk could at least be explained as smoke and flames flowing around the body. This time we have a visible exit wound, along with goons getting impaled all around Oven. That's just crap. Things like this were crap in Bleach and they are crap here.
We need to start treating crap as crap at some point. :ninja:
The way the laser attack was drawn was meant to fool us into thinking Oven is seriously injured. If the blast just hit him without piercing, we'd know he was gonna come back. That's just creating cheap suspense. It's not something I'm gonna happily tolerate, no matter how much I like OP. I expect more.
No. Sanji has advanced to trash tier now. Oven is Sanji tier. :ninja:
This is One Piece just gotta deal with it. We get people impaled or have them lose limbs ever so often but attacks with some form of energy never tare holes into victims. I’ve known lightning to rip trees in half or shoot through them leaving massive holes, Califa gets a bolt that goes through her head and naturally she’s just burned. In the very chapter that Oven was “impaled” you can clearly see there is nothing left but a burn mark.
I feel like the best we’ve ever gotten was Kizaru’s lasers shooting through Urouge. That went through and left blood dripping if I recall. Maybe Oda decided that was ok as it left something of a bullet wound and not some massive hole. White Beard has been the only one to receive such a wound and that was after Oda said he didn’t like things that were too violent like imaplings.
You don’t have to like it but the way Oven took that attack is pretty consistent with the way characters have taken damage in this story.
Folks who read One Piece… Just better people. ¯\(ツ)/¯
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@Sibersk:
You can see he has just has a scorch mark in that chapter too.
But you can't see if that's all there is to it.
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Seeing as how we saw nothing else, clearly, it was.
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This is One Piece just gotta deal with it. We get people impaled or have them lose limbs ever so often but attacks with some form of energy never tare holes into victims. I’ve known lightning to rip trees in half or shoot through them leaving massive holes, Califa gets a bolt that goes through her head and naturally she’s just burned. In the very chapter that Oven was “impaled” you can clearly see there is nothing left but a burn mark.
I feel like the best we’ve ever gotten was Kizaru’s lasers shooting through Urouge. That went through and left blood dripping if I recall. Maybe Oda decided that was ok as it left something of a bullet wound and not some massive hole. White Beard has been the only one to receive such a wound and that was after Oda said he didn’t like things that were too violent like imaplings.
You don’t have to like it but the way Oven took that attack is pretty consistent with the way characters have taken damage in this story.
Yeah, well this is me dealing with it. ^^
I don't remember seeing an energy attack actually drawn like it's piercing through a body so far. That's a first I think.
This way, we have an energy beam which passes through a human while knocking him back, that is hot enough to burn through cloth, but not enough to burn though human flash. In essence, Oven just got burned a little. But for a while it looked like he's out for the count.
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Has anyone else mentioned the submarine? Doesn't the Sunny have a sub? Couldn't they escape through it?
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Also what about Orlumbus? No cover story yet. Could his armada arrive to help out?
His is next, after the Giant Pirate crew, who still has one more crewmember to introduce
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@Sibersk:
Seeing as how we saw nothing else, clearly, it was.
The panel was small, much of his torso was hidden.
Maybe I had hopes Oda didn't go full Kubo there. ^^
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No need to start generalizing. I am talking about Ichiji's laser seemingly blasting through Oven's torso, with little to no consequence. Bleach had a lot of moments where the characters appeared heavily wounded or dead only to come up unhurt later on, or right in the next panel. We called it trolling. Not sure why it can't apply here, since it's the same damn thing.
What I mean is that I'm not onboard the Bleach criticism because I don't read Bleach. Maybe I'd disagree with people calling it trolling, who knows… Let's talk only One Piece.
Again, there's a difference. Characters in OP can sustain a lot of damage. Like Whitebeard, for example, who kept fighting with an open chest wound. That's fine, really.
In this case, Oven's torso looks like it's been pierced, but in reality it wasn't pierced. He's shown yelling over the phone later on in the same chapter, and we can't see if there's a lasting effect of the laser or not. 2 chapters later, he's ok, there's no wound.
With the Mr. 1 example I'm not making an argument for sustaining huge damage. Of course they do. I'm just pointing out that Zoro should be divided in two separate pieces considering the way things were drawn (pic in the link below). He didn't, of course. The same for Hodi Jones, where his back looks like it exploded like a baloon (come on, there's more than fire behind him), except it didn't (second link below). We could go on to mention that Crocodile pierced a hole through Luffy's stomach without it ever showing up later…
https://www.mangareader.net/one-piece/195/12
https://www.mangareader.net/one-piece/644/18Just to be clear here, you are entitled to call all of this bullshit if that's your opinion. My only argument is that this series consistently deforms reality (not only in fights) for the sake of conveying emphasis and/or meaning, so we should not take things at face value. If you think that's stupid, it's perfectly fine.
I don't have a problem with his endurance. But maybe don't show a laser going through his chest and back if you don't plan on making it relevant. It's starting to get ridiculous.
Are we even sure it's a laser and not something intangible? How does Ichiji's attack even work?
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You see, I don't see any blood coming from the "holes" Ichiji made on Oven.
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Adam tree survive on a war torn Island, even if it rain cannon balls, the tree survive. It's the strongest tree in the world.
If sunny sank, that means Franky didn't achieve his dream. I don't see how that makes any sense.
Franky can always build a new ship to achieve his dreams.
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You see, I don't see any blood coming from the "holes" Ichiji made on Oven.
Since it's a heat based attack, there isn't supposed to be any blood.
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Franky can always build a new ship to achieve his dreams.
It's true, but the point of his dream is kind of that he wants ONE ship to travel on all the seas. He can't make many ships and send them to different location, amiright ?
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Franky can always build a new ship to achieve his dreams.
When Luffy and others appear on Wano without Sunny, we'll have a situation from the beginning Water 7, but with Franky instead of Usopp.
Regarding shit-laser, I added stuff to my reply to Romance. I think I just about covered everything I wanted to.
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Since it's a heat based attack, there isn't supposed to be any blood.
He spitted blood though
But it doesn't even matter. It's not the first time in OnePiece someone is "transpierced" by something, but actually isn't
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I seriously doubt anything happened to Sunny and anyone believing they're getting a new ship should get themselves checked. Heavy damage? maaaaaybe. I still think it's a misdirect and the ship on fire is not the Sunny. Nothing else can save the crew besides Big Mom randomly rampaging over her own crew atm
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When Luffy and others appear on Wano without Sunny, we'll have a situation from the beginning Water 7, but with Franky instead of Usopp.
If the ship is indeed beyond repair, this will be a huge blow to Franky. I hope so because I like it when things get personal for the main characters. However, it's also possible that he'll be resonable and understand that, in the New World, things can go wrong and that he should be thankful that at least his friends are alive.
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The panel was small, much of his torso was hidden.
Maybe I had hopes Oda didn't go full Kubo there. ^^
If Oda went full Kubo, then Ichiji vs Oven would've been a full chapter "fight" (bragging about their powers for 13 pages), Ichiji's attack would've had a big warmup splash page, Oven would've been all like "what…is this power?!?!" and then Ichiji's attack would've completely obliterated Oven at the end of the chapter.
Then, in the next chapter Ichiji would've cooly walked away, and then Oven would've risen up behind him and taken him down in one shot.
I hope you can see the difference in the two scenarios.
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where's the last save point
did anyone save before the big choice?
i heard there's three jokes endings too. one of them where pell fell and bomb killed everyone
don't really wanna watch all the endings on youtube either -
It's true, but the point of his dream is kind of that he wants ONE ship to travel on all the seas. He can't make many ships and send them to different location, amiright ?
Yes, I don't want to undermine what the Sunny means to Franky, but that's character development for him too. Should life play out exactly like in our dreams? The dream is dead now that Sunny is destroyed or should Franky move on and build a new ship to achieve his dreams?
Nothing like that may happen, of course, but I think these are good ideas for themes to write about.
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Day 3 - Someone wants the Sunny to be dead
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Day 3 - People want the Sunny to be dead
I think that would be better, but I actually believe the ship will only sink and then be taken to Wano to be repaired. That's when we'll understand the properties of Adam wood.
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Why don't we have Usopp be a coward for the rest of the series? I mean, he is a useless piece of shit who ran away after his friends were defeated and turned into toys anyway. And then stupidly came back and was pwned in the same chapter. Reality isn't always like in the dreams. If the Sunny can get destroyed, Usopp must also face the reality that he is always going to be weak and that running away is a wiser choice than dying for nothing. Am I right, guys? Now that is good character development for him.
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Yes, I don't want to undermine what the Sunny means to Franky, but that's character development for him too. Should life play out exactly like in our dreams? The dream is dead now that Sunny is destroyed or should Franky move on and build a new ship to achieve his dreams?
Nothing like that may happen, of course, but I think these are good ideas for themes to write about.
When you put it that way, I wouldn't mind if Oda delved into those kinda themes. Although, I don't think he'd want that in his feel good shounen for kids.
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Yes, I don't want to undermine what the Sunny means to Franky, but that's character development for him too. Should life play out exactly like in our dreams? The dream is dead now that Sunny is destroyed or should Franky move on and build a new ship to achieve his dreams?
Nothing like that may happen, of course, but I think these are good ideas for themes to write about.
We can get to that theme when Blackbeard kills Shanks, Shiryu defeats Mihawk, and Van Augur bumps off Yasopp. Along with any other Blackbeard Pirate shenanigans, like Lafitte hypnotizing Laboon or something.
Going through another ship being destroyed is too much of a story retread and it would be antithetical for One Piece to claim that any type of dream is impossible. Even if Franky builds a new ship, accomplishing his dream will not be as impressive as the Thousand Sunny making it around the world from the first half of the Grand Line. The only way this type of thing can work is if the character who had this dream develops a dream that's even more grand and satisfying than the last one.
Spoiler:
"Life's not about finding out which card is yours, but finding out which cards you're not."
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What doesn't make sense?
For starters Sunny getting wrecked in OP doesnt make sense. I anticipate Pudding's doing -> third eye awakinging -> fake memory of SHs destroyed, until BM crew learns otherwise
Not to mention Sunny getting destroyed by a Cannon ball :P I mean come on, every person in this manga has by now deflected 1, 10, 100, 1000 of those and with these star class guys on the ship I think anyone with a common shounen sense would have a hard time believing this one heh
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The only reason I want sunny ship to stay down in flames I because I never liked the design, I t looks like a joke. Doesn't look like a pirate king's ship, Whitebeard's ship looks like a pirate king's ship, Moby dick or noah, even dragon's ship. Even the gland fleet ship looks way more impressive then sunny, and it feels wierd to have that as underlings ship when you got this thing as main.
But for sure they don't have time to build a new one while fighting two yonkous and road to raftel is not that long away since they already got 2 out of 4 road poneglyphs and 3 after wano. -
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@Sibersk:
If Oda went full Kubo, then Ichiji vs Oven would've been a full chapter "fight" (bragging about their powers for 13 pages), Ichiji's attack would've had a big warmup splash page, Oven would've been all like "what…is this power?!?!" and then Ichiji's attack would've completely obliterated Oven at the end of the chapter.
Then, in the next chapter Ichiji would've cooly walked away, and then Oven would've risen up behind him and taken him down in one shot.
I hope you can see the difference in the two scenarios.
Yeah, well he pulled a Kubo in that scene, as far as I'm concerned.
What you described would take multiple chapters, as you say. Hope OP doesn't get there. Ever.
Not sure why comparing OP to Bleach is that much of a trigger. It's not like it doesn't have faults. If I see something I didn't like there, I certainly won't like it here.
Sent from my D5803 using Tapatalk
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For starters Sunny getting wrecked in OP doesnt make sense. I anticipate Pudding's doing -> third eye awakinging -> fake memory of SHs destroyed, until BM crew learns otherwise
Not to mention Sunny getting destroyed by a Cannon ball :P I mean come on, every person in this manga has by now deflected 1, 10, 100, 1000 of those and with these star class guys on the ship I think anyone with a common shounen sense would have a hard time believing this one heh
That doesn't make sense, but Pudding suddenly having her DF abilities awakened and manipulating the entire BM fleet does?
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@Count:
We can get to that theme when Blackbeard kills Shanks, Shiryu defeats Mihawk, and Van Augur bumps off Yasopp. Along with any other Blackbeard Pirate shenanigans, like Lafitte hypnotizing Laboon or something.
Going through another ship being destroyed is too much of a story retread and it would be antithetical for One Piece to claim that any type of dream is impossible. Even if Franky builds a new ship, accomplishing his dream will not be as impressive as the Thousand Sunny making it around the world from the first half of the Grand Line. The only way this type of thing can work is if the character who had this dream develops a dream that's even more grand and satisfying than the last one.
I agree with you that the themes I mentioned can be developed in other stories if Oda wants to.
However, I strongly disagree that the Sunny being destroyed is "too much of a story retread", since the meaning of Sunny to Franky is completely different from the meaning of Merry to Usopp. Therefore we have a completely new approach to a similar occasion. I'd even add that the circunstances are very different, since the Merry situation was about "believing in Merry to keep going" while the Sunny would be "it was destroyed, RIP".
And of course I'm not saying that Franky's dream is impossible. If Sunny was indeed destroyed, we have yet to see how Oda will deal with the whole situation about Franky having to build a new ship. Oda can be really ingenious.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Why don't we have Usopp be a coward for the rest of the series? I mean, he is a useless piece of shit who ran away after his friends were defeated and turned into toys anyway. And then stupidly came back and was pwned in the same chapter. Reality isn't always like in the dreams. If the Sunny can get destroyed, Usopp must also face the reality that he is always going to be weak and that running away is a wiser choice than dying for nothing. Am I right, guys? Now that is good character development for him.
Sorry, but I really don't understand what your sarcasm is trying to say. I'm sure I'm interested in being part of your conversation. :)
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Not sure why comparing OP to Bleach is that much of a trigger. It's not like it doesn't have faults. If I see something I didn't like there, I certainly won't like it here.
There is a significant difference between the number of flaws one have to the other.
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one piece ending leaked online view now
======>>>>http://www.onepieceending.com/tive=gkcEAAYAiAAEgLTtfD_BwE<<<======
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There is a significant difference between the number of flaws one have to the other.
Not sure why you felt it needed to be said.
OP still has ways to go until it achieves the greatness of Bleach.
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I agree with you that the themes I mentioned can be developed in other stories if Oda wants to.
However, I strongly disagree that the Sunny being destroyed is "too much of a story retread", since the meaning of Sunny to Franky is completely different from the meaning of Merry to Usopp. Therefore we have a completely new approach to a similar occasion. I'd even add that the circunstances are very different, since the Merry situation was about "believing in Merry to keep going" while the Sunny would be "it was destroyed, RIP".
And of course I'm not saying that Franky's dream is impossible. If Sunny was indeed destroyed, we have yet to see how Oda will deal with the whole situation about Franky having to build a new ship. Oda can be really ingenious.
Even if Usopp and Franky have different relationships with their ships, how many different ways can Franky's character development be written than Usopp? The Straw Hats are very static characters and, aside from very gradual nuances like Usopp becoming more confident in fights and Zoro's selfless dedication to the crew, the only way Oda gives any of them development is having the crew separated in some way. Counting Nami, Usopp, Robin, Sanji, and I also count the timeskip separation. I do not need to see that again, there is nothing new Oda can do with that formula.
Having a Straw Hat replace their entire dream would be the most radical thing he has ever done, and I don't think he can make it work unless he's willing to seriously change up One Piece to be a more dynamic story deviating from obvious tropes like Hunter x Hunter, which is never going to happen. And Franky's dream still has to technically be fulfilled as long as the Straw Hats get to Raftel on a ship, so Franky changing his dream seems fairly unnecessary.
The Merry situation was "should we or should we not get a new ship?" followed by "the ship got destroyed. Let's give the ship a funeral" and concluded with "how do we get a new ship? Build a new one". Sunny situation skips step one. That's the only real difference.
Additionally, another problem that comes up is the Roger Pirates' legacy. Oda has been carefully crafting the Straw Hats' feats to either match or surpass the Roger Pirates. For example, the Roger Pirates conquered the Grand Line in three years. The Straw Hat Pirates have been venturing for at least two years. Crocus, one of the best doctors in One Piece, could not cure Roger's terminal illness. So there is a good chance that Chopper will cure a terminal illness at some point in the series, perhaps that very same one.
But the most relevant point to bring up about the Roger Pirates is how Tom built the Oro Jackson, the ship that allowed the Roger Pirates to sail the Grand Line and reach Raftel in three years. He died to protect his craftsmanship integrity without regrets. Tom has worked in Water 7 for most of his life (although he was probably born at Fishman Island since his brother is there), so he had the same starting line for making the Pirate King's ship as Franky.
If the Thousand Sunny gets replaced with a ship that will have only sailed across half of the New World in less than a year instead of the entire New World (along with surviving for two years undetected and making it to the Grand Line's halfway point), what kind of message does that say? The Straw Hat Pirates' accomplishments are inferior to the Roger Pirates. Even if you want to argue that having one of the main characters come to terms with not being able to surpass their mentor in a certain way would be an interesting plot twist in another story, we both know that Oda will NEVER let this type of irredeemable "defeat" happen for his main characters.
Luffy is going to become the Pirate King, the best one ever in fact. And if that is the case, his crew needs to become the best crew ever. This is what the manga has set out to accomplish and that is the goal it needs to fulfill.
Oda can be really ingenious, sure, but he does it in his own style and familiar set of parameters. He might like changing up the formula a bit now and then, but this is way too wild for him to even consider.
Spoiler:
"Life's not about finding out which card is yours, but finding out which cards you're not."
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Come on, who wouldn't be excited at the prospect of waiting for Franky to build another ship? Wano, shmano, we can read that shit in 2020 for all I care. Remakes of past arcs, that's what we need now.
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His is next, after the Giant Pirate crew, who still has one more crewmember to introduce
Well, yes, his is next, but my point is that theoretically he hasn't been shown yet so Oda could introduce him into the main story again, because he hasn't been shown to be elsewhere.
For the record, I don't think Orlumbus is likely to show up, but he does have a part of Luffy's vivre card, and he could.
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@Count:
Even if Usopp and Franky have different relationships with their ships, how many different ways can Franky's character development be written than Usopp? The Straw Hats are very static characters and, aside from very gradual nuances like Usopp becoming more confident in fights and Zoro's selfless dedication to the crew, the only way Oda gives any of them development is having the crew separated in some way. Counting Nami, Usopp, Robin, Sanji, and I also count the timeskip separation. I do not need to see that again, there is nothing new Oda can do with that formula.
For Usopp, beyond his personal attachment to Merry for a lot of different reasons, his character development was centered around his own inferiority complex that made him feel like he could be left behind by Luffy just like it was happening with Merry ("damn, I can be replaced too"). So his character development was fulfilled when (a) Usopp realised that he was irreplaceble inside the crew and (b) that there were things that only he could accomplish (that's what Sanji explained to him in the Tower of Justice before Usopp's epic moment saving Robin from crossing the Bridge of Hesitation).
Another completely different character development is how Franky will deal with the achievement of his dreams now that the Sunny is destroyed (if it is). Btw, in a plot structure, it is not unusual that before the climax the character sees itself the furthest away from accomplishing his goal. Applying this principle to Franky, the destruction of the Sunny could be the obstacle he would have to overcome before building the ultimate ship.
@Count:
Having a Straw Hat replace their entire dream would be the most radical thing he has ever done, and I don't think he can make it work unless he's willing to seriously change up One Piece to be a more dynamic story deviating from obvious tropes like Hunter x Hunter, which is never going to happen. And Franky's dream still has to technically be fulfilled as long as the Straw Hats get to Raftel on a ship, so Franky changing his dream seems fairly unnecessary.
Franky is not changing his dreams if the Sunny is destroyed. You can describe Franky's dream as "to build the ship of the Pirate King and to travel along the crew", something still achievable. As I said before, I don't want to undermine the meaning of Sunny to Franky, because it became the first (and maybe the only, let's see) manifestation of the ship of his dreams. However, Sunny is not intrinsically related to the concept of his dream, rather an application of the concept. Therefore, not the only possible application of the concept.
@Count:
The Merry situation was "should we or should we not get a new ship?" followed by "the ship got destroyed. Let's give the ship a funeral" and concluded with "how do we get a new ship? Build a new one". Sunny situation skips step one. That's the only real difference.
The conflict resided in the first step.
@Count:
Additionally, another problem that comes up is the Roger Pirates' legacy. Oda has been carefully crafting the Straw Hats' feats to either match or surpass the Roger Pirates. For example, the Roger Pirates conquered the Grand Line in three years. The Straw Hat Pirates have been venturing for at least two years. Crocus, one of the best doctors in One Piece, could not cure Roger's terminal illness. So there is a good chance that Chopper will cure a terminal illness at some point in the series, perhaps that very same one.
But the most relevant point to bring up about the Roger Pirates is how Tom built the Oro Jackson, the ship that allowed the Roger Pirates to sail the Grand Line and reach Raftel in three years. He died to protect his craftsmanship integrity without regrets. Tom has worked in Water 7 for most of his life (although he was probably born at Fishman Island since his brother is there), so he had the same starting line for making the Pirate King's ship as Franky.
If the Thousand Sunny gets replaced with a ship that will have only sailed across half of the New World in less than a year instead of the entire New World (along with surviving for two years undetected and making it to the Grand Line's halfway point), what kind of message does that say? The Straw Hat Pirates' accomplishments are inferior to the Roger Pirates. Even if you want to argue that having one of the main characters come to terms with not being able to surpass their mentor in a certain way would be an interesting plot twist in another story, we both know that Oda will NEVER let this type of irredeemable "defeat" happen for his main characters.
I don't see how this is an hindrance to my arguments in this discussion, honestly. Even more so because Oda is telling Luffy's tale, therefore it's bound to have more nuance and also be more complicated than the details that Oda will tell us about Roger's journay. Nobody is inferior than anybody just because they suffered a defeat before they succeeded. And Luffy will probably accomplish things that Roger never could do after reaching Laftel, so his adventure will surpass his predecessor regardless of eventual failures.
I guess we just disagree agree here.
@Count:
Luffy is going to become the Pirate King, the best one ever in fact. And if that is the case, his crew needs to become the best crew ever. This is what the manga has set out to accomplish and that is the goal it needs to fulfill.
And they are the best crew for the reasons I tried to present before. One can fail before they succeed even further.
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@Count:
Even if Usopp and Franky have different relationships with their ships, how many different ways can Franky's character development be written than Usopp? The Straw Hats are very static characters and, aside from very gradual nuances like Usopp becoming more confident in fights and Zoro's selfless dedication to the crew, the only way Oda gives any of them development is having the crew separated in some way. Counting Nami, Usopp, Robin, Sanji, and I also count the timeskip separation. I do not need to see that again, there is nothing new Oda can do with that formula.
Having a Straw Hat replace their entire dream would be the most radical thing he has ever done, and I don't think he can make it work unless he's willing to seriously change up One Piece to be a more dynamic story deviating from obvious tropes like Hunter x Hunter, which is never going to happen. And Franky's dream still has to technically be fulfilled as long as the Straw Hats get to Raftel on a ship, so Franky changing his dream seems fairly unnecessary.
The Merry situation was "should we or should we not get a new ship?" followed by "the ship got destroyed. Let's give the ship a funeral" and concluded with "how do we get a new ship? Build a new one". Sunny situation skips step one. That's the only real difference.
Additionally, another problem that comes up is the Roger Pirates' legacy. Oda has been carefully crafting the Straw Hats' feats to either match or surpass the Roger Pirates. For example, the Roger Pirates conquered the Grand Line in three years. The Straw Hat Pirates have been venturing for at least two years. Crocus, one of the best doctors in One Piece, could not cure Roger's terminal illness. So there is a good chance that Chopper will cure a terminal illness at some point in the series, perhaps that very same one.
But the most relevant point to bring up about the Roger Pirates is how Tom built the Oro Jackson, the ship that allowed the Roger Pirates to sail the Grand Line and reach Raftel in three years. He died to protect his craftsmanship integrity without regrets. Tom has worked in Water 7 for most of his life (although he was probably born at Fishman Island since his brother is there), so he had the same starting line for making the Pirate King's ship as Franky.
If the Thousand Sunny gets replaced with a ship that will have only sailed across half of the New World in less than a year instead of the entire New World (along with surviving for two years undetected and making it to the Grand Line's halfway point), what kind of message does that say? The Straw Hat Pirates' accomplishments are inferior to the Roger Pirates. Even if you want to argue that having one of the main characters come to terms with not being able to surpass their mentor in a certain way would be an interesting plot twist in another story, we both know that Oda will NEVER let this type of irredeemable "defeat" happen for his main characters.
Luffy is going to become the Pirate King, the best one ever in fact. And if that is the case, his crew needs to become the best crew ever. This is what the manga has set out to accomplish and that is the goal it needs to fulfill.
Oda can be really ingenious, sure, but he does it in his own style and familiar set of parameters. He might like changing up the formula a bit now and then, but this is way too wild for him to even consider.
heart-eyes Good post, Count!
I'm certain that the ship aint destroyed. Willing to believe it's damaged though. If it's just damaged and repairable then, to me, that's not really a re-tread. It would be a little similar to Water 7, but as long as they didn't treat it with the same dramatic emphasis, I think it could be safely different.
I guess if I had it go my way right now, I wouldn't want an illusion or a fake memory, I'd want them to escape (submarine, Orlumbus, whatever) but with the damaged ship in tow, to be repaired at Elbaf after Wano and the Reverie. A similar alternative would be the damaged ship getting separated from the crew, to be reclaimed and repaired later. I certainly don't know exactly how I'd want this written, but that's not my responsibility.
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A 3rd party that wasn't already present in this arc coming to save them, whether it's directly or indirectly, would be awful.
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I guess I also think that the idea of the ship being damaged, and the SHs getting captured, but ultimately being "saved" in some way by Big Mom due to the cake, would make some sense. Some sort of deal gets worked out. I dunno. Could be cool!
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
A 3rd party that wasn't already present in this arc coming to save them, whether it's directly or indirectly, would be awful.
Wouldn't be my favorite, but at least if it was someone from the fleet it WOULD NOT be an asspull. It's the whole point of the vivre thing. I will say, though, that it would be a little early (for my taste) for the vivre/fleet to come into play.
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For Usopp, beyond his personal attachment to Merry for a lot of different reasons, his character development was centered around his own inferiority complex that made him feel like he could be left behind by Luffy just like it was happening with Merry ("damn, I can be replaced too"). So his character development was fulfilled when (a) Usopp realised that he was irreplaceble inside the crew and (b) that there were things that only he could accomplish (that's what Sanji explained to him in the Tower of Justice before Usopp's epic moment saving Robin from crossing the Bridge of Hesitation).
Another completely different character development is how Franky will deal with the achievement of his dreams now that the Sunny is destroyed (if it is). Btw, in a plot structure, it is not unusual that before the climax of a story the character sees itself the furthest away from accomplishing his goal. Applying this principle to Franky, the destruction of the Sunny would be the obstacle he would have to overcome before building the ultimate ship.
The conflict resided in the first step.
Usopp and Franky's internal conflicts would be different, I will concede that. Although this still retreads too much when it comes to the crew needing to build a new ship for my taste, especially when Oda will never top how emotional everything from the Luffy vs. Usopp fight to Merry's funeral was.
But how exactly will Oda make the plot structure for Franky's dream disillusionment work differently than what we already saw in the Water 7 saga? We even already knew that Franky gave up on his dreams for years until the Post-Enies Lobby arc. Why retread that again with another ship build requiring Adam Wood unless a cool new twist is added to the story dynamic?
There's only two ways I see Oda going about this type of story. Franky leaves the crew and maybe meets his pirate parents for a conflict formula we have already seen several times, or Franky gets depressed for most of an arc until finally cheering up somehow at the end of it. Both of those routes sound boring and redundant to me. That can already delve into most of the themes a destroyed Sunny would delve into, but have the dynamic of Franky's dreams hanging onto a thread than being completely shattered. We can already get a decent internal conflict for Franky out of not knowing how to repair the ship until maybe hearing that Adam Wood is in Wano Country or Elbaf. And it would have a more unique resolution than being a whole new ship AGAIN while still maintaining the quality in how he achieves his dream with a ship that has made it through thick and thin since his joining arc.
If the Thousand Sunny gets destroyed, Franky loses. He doesn't just stumble, he has to start back from square one and permanently live with the fact that his dream ship could not sail across half of the Grand Line, technically a whole ocean. Only a quarter at best. That is a permanent stain on his record he can never wash off, he has to settle for a consolation prize instead. That is not what One Piece is about.
Franky is not changing his dreams if the Sunny is destroyed. You can describe Franky's dream as "to build the ship of the Pirate King and to travel along the crew", something still achievable. As I said before, I don't want to undermine the meaning of Sunny to Franky, because it became the first (and maybe the only, let's see) manifestation of the ship of his dreams. However, Sunny is not intrinsically related to the concept of his dream, rather an application of the concept. Therefore, not the only possible application of the concept.
The problem here is that the Thousand Sunny is the best way to make Franky's accomplishment look the most impressive. Building a new ship only dulls that because the Straw Hats are never going to turn around and sail through all of those islands from Water 7 to Totland again, barring the Final War maybe. Oda wants his main characters, no matter what their struggles and occasional defeats are, to look as impressive as possible. The Thousand Sunny being destroyed will inhibit that impression, not empower it.
I don't see how this is an hindrance to this discussion, honestly. Even more because Oda is telling Luffy's tale, therefore it is bound to have more nuance and be more complicated than the details Oda will tell us about Roger's journay. Nobody is inferior than anybody just because they suffered a defeat before they succeeded. And Luffy will probably accomplish things that Roger never could after reaching Laftel, so his adventure will surpass his predecessor regardless of eventual failures.
I guess we just disagree agree here.
Oda is telling the Straw Hats Pirates' tale, not just Luffy's. Luffy is the biggest focus, but that focus is still shared with nine-ten other characters. Evidenced by your very argument about Franky potentially having his own character development arc centered around the Thousand Sunny's destruction. The latest Shonen Jump magazine cover does not have only Luffy. It's Luffy, Nami, and Chopper. One Piece is about the crew, Luffy is only the biggest focal point.
And yes, the Straw Hat Pirates will look inferior. Nobody will call them inferior in-story, of course. But for us as fans, the Roger Pirates would still have the top ship for a Grand Line voyage. This is not just about the Straw Hat Pirates surpassing the Roger Pirates in one way or two, but matching or surpassing them in EVERYTHING they did. Oda clearly wants to do that because that makes for a more exciting story, and he loves to have the story talk about how impressive the Straw Hats are and form comparisons with the Roger Pirates.
Do you think it's sheer coincidence that the story keeps making comparisons between Luffy and Roger, and the Roger Pirates exploring certain places the Straw Hats also reached like Skypiea? Or Mihawk and Yasopp being close companions with Shanks, who is inevitably going to fight Blackbeard one day? Do you think Oda as an author wants any of his main characters' accomplishments to look lesser compared to characters who were only active One Piece's background lore never seen on-panel? You might not judge or feel insecure about the Straw Hats not measuring up to the previous Pirate King crew, but Oda likely does. Many others in the fanbase probably would. I know that I myself would find it pretty awkward. Because why focus on this journey if the last one was more impressive?
And they are the best crew for the reasons I tried to present before. One can fail before they succeed even further.
There are only so many ways you can fail before it becomes impossible to match your predecessor, who the story constantly keeps comparing you to. Or achieve your dream in the most captivating way possible.
Spoiler:
"Life's not about finding out which card is yours, but finding out which cards you're not."
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Wouldn't be my favorite, but at least if it was someone from the fleet it WOULD NOT be an asspull. It's the whole point of the vivre thing. I will say, though, that it would be a little early (for my taste) for the vivre/fleet to come into play.
Considering how long it should take to get to Totland, at best it'd be cutting it pretty damn close. Becomes even more awkward if we work under the assumption that Orlumbus would only be motivated to take action when Luffy's in clear moments of peril. The closest he's ever come to that was when he got stabbed by Katakuri, and on a smaller note, when he was imprisoned alongside Nami. Obviously, he came out of both of those situations just fine, so even if the Vivre card shrunk down, it would've recovered to its normal size anyways, which should signify that Orlumbus should just relax. But honestly, the real answer is that we simply can't have the fleet (much less just one member) jumping to save him for every little thing, and I'd expect Oda to foreshadow it properly anyways. Or at the very least, make it a situation similar to Ace where the world learns in detail what has happened to him.
I'm starting to realize that between the fleet and Luffy learning Future Sight, people are always going to prop them up as being potential options in terms of the Straw Hats make it out of a sticky situation lol
The face of a Straw Hat.
