@sgamer82:
I can't argue with every point you made, Count Mario. For the ones I think I can, Ill try, but I think the issue is that we're seeing this in two completely different ways. Or at least you're seeing a bigger deal in something I personally don't think is going to be important, assuming it's resolved at all, at all by arc's end. Anywho…
I apologize if my explanations can seem convoluted. I'll try to be more concise.
I think I get the logic, but I sincerely don't see that way at all. To the other Straw Hats, especially if Sanji gets a chance to explain himself or the others learn about the threat to Zeff, they'll see what Sanji was doing. Protecting the people he cared about the only way he could.
I get what you mean. But I still hold Sanji accountable for making things more of a mess than they have to be due his self-disparaging personality and letting his trauma with the Vinsmokes cloud his judgment. I don't blame as a human being for feeling this internal conflict and pressure at all, it would be terrifying for anybody. But that does not mean it wasn't logically possible for Sanji to try a more sensible choice. Or try to help his situation in general instead of accepting, actually. But that's just me.
Can't argue with this part.
I'm glad we concur.
I am. It's precisely the reason I don't equate Sanji's situation to Usopp's. What Sanji is doing is nothing like that, even when he actively attacked Luffy it was no different then when Robin interfered in her own rescue attempt on the Puffing Tom.
I understand what you mean and can agree. You're right about the situations not being that similar. However, I do not equate what Robin did with how far Sanji went. The difference is that the Straw Hats knew they were facing the World Government and that Robin doesn't want them to come after her because they're powerful in both physicality and size. Robin didn't have much reason to believe the Straw Hats could go as far as waging war against the World Government itself, or even make it that far. She also did not take it as far as what Sanji did. She obstructed herself from getting caught, she didn't try to actively attack the Straw Hats. And honestly, in certain aspects, I argue that what Sanji did is worse than Usopp's. Because at least Luffy and Usopp tried to argue and voice their sides with Merry, and agreed to a fight. With Sanji, Luffy's left clueless, took a beating, and put himself on a hunger strike (I don't blame Sanji for not expecting the last part, but he definitely should have expected Luffy to act stupidly stubborn in some type of fashion). And he supposedly expected the Straw Hats to not come after him just by leaving a note with one sentence saying he'll take care of his business with a chick. I don't expect you to agree with my comparison, but you have to agree that the last part I mentioned about the note is a ridiculous expectation at this point of the story.
The problem is that very same faith would make Luffy absolutely determined to save him, no matter what Sanji says. Luffy can be stubborn about things like that. Telling, or even hinting at the situation wouldn't dissuade Luffy. Nothing probably would have, but it can be argued Sanji at least knew that wouldn't do it and tried the option of making it look like he sincerely didn't want to be with Luffy at all.
Which he should know from Nami and Robin's situations that it wouldn't work at all. It would have been more sensical to at least try the option that nobody else did. And he probably would have at least dissuaded Luffy from wanting to rush on to fight the army recklessly by standing in one spot. At least a more stealthy approach or something. Sanji dug himself into a hole that he didn't have to when he was already deep enough in the soil.
The threat to Zeff is contingent on Sanji's cooperation. So far as Sanji is aware or expecting, the Straw Hats' actions aren't going to risk Zeff's life unless Sanji himself cooperates with them. You're right that Luffy knows when to fold them, and this may be such an occasion, were he aware of it. It may not be though. Not if the alternative is losing his cook and friend forever. For instance, if the threat were coming from Germa 66, he could make a point of totaling as much of Germa's power on Whole Cake as possible so they couldn't follow through on the threat. Or do what he did on Fishman Island and get Big Mom to focus her rage on him instead of Zeff.
Um… You do realize that your first couple sentences there about Zeff's life only hinging on Sanji's cooperation and not the Straw Hat's actions actually gives my argument more credit as to why he should have tried to give info about his situation to the Straw Hats since they're not as bound as he is, right? I don't mean to act condescending, I'm just being honest. But regardless, I can see the Vinsmokes pulling the trigger if Sanji didn't want to make the impoverished bilge rats leave or setting an example after hearing about a future incident of Luffy messing with the wedding plans publicly in a reckless fashion. Captors can hold you accountable for a bunch of things, even unfair ones like other people's actions. Why would Sanji want to stop Luffy if his actions wouldn't indirectly get Zeff killed? The pages in that chapter had Sanji's mind flash to Judge's threat about Zeff and the quote about the warning. Hence that he was worried Luffy's independent actions would provoke the Vinsmokes and Big Mom to kill Zeff if Sanji chose not to intervene at that point. That still doesn't justify Sanji not trying to tell Luffy and Nami the truth since it factually made things worse, but I think your perspective isn't as open as it should be when it comes to hostage situations.
And I'd argue that if Luffy was willing to go on a stealth mission in the first place, then he would be open to finding another way to help Sanji that didn't require his fists in that very moment. But I feel like we're getting too deep into what if's when it comes to predicting the likelihood of Luffy's behavior. But typical Luffy violence wouldn't work when there is likely an active assassin at the Baratie. But another deal with Big Mom is how I expect the Zeff situation may be solved and how Luffy unexpectedly turns the odds on what Sanji thought was impossible.
Hence my qualifiers that it probably wasn't likely and that its likelihood depended on who was sent.
I know that, but what is the likelihood that either Germa 66 (who conquered North Blue) or the Big Mom Pirates (a Yonko crew) are going to send over someone who's weaker than Don Krieg's crew? I would place bets on an unexpected third-party showing up. Like, I don't know, a retired Garp showing up for a meal and revealing he's old friends with Zeff. Sounds really random, I know, but it would make more sense with how much Zeff is established to be past his prime. But don't get me wrong, I would love to see Zeff pull of something cool somehow if it's possible. I honestly wouldn't even mind a retcon to have him be decently strong just this once because of how priceless the moment would be lol.
Count, would it be accurate to say the biggest sticking point here, above everything else, is Sanji attacking Luffy? That's the moment that he seems to lose any sympathy to you, if I've been following this right.
Nope. It's both that and the fact that he kept it a secret. Honestly, I don't think the fact that he beat Luffy up on its own is really that bad, especially if Oda had written the chapter to have Judge tell Sanji to prove his loyalty by fighting his captain. But the fact that Sanji's beatdown is coupled with not wanting to tell his friends anything to even give them the slightest insight is what mainly has my attention towards an apology, as well as enacting the beatdown on his own accord. But moreso the not telling his friends part most of all. I just do not buy that being reasonable at this point in the story with a character who has been a mainstay as long as Sanji.
@sgamer82:
I don't, given the exact words were "Ussop concealed the information about the ship's damage".
The Klabautermann helped repair some of the ship's damages in Skypiea. Hence why he could have referred to the "ship's damage". Misunderstandings and inefficient wording can happen sometimes. That, and I can't see how anybody could come to the conclusion that Usopp hid information about the Merry's literal damages even if they had a faulty memory, and I give Tamiel the benefit of the doubt since he typically remembers specific events in the manga precisely. But I could be wrong and he's just having an off day lol.
EDIT: Ha! I was right about my man, Tamiel lol. But I don't blame you for the misunderstanding at all, it was reasonably confusing.