[qimg]https://i.imgur.com/LF2dyQf.jpg[/qimg]
Just thought you guys might find this funny.
Might be funnier with context.
Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !
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Might be funnier with context.
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Anyway just thought it was funny that kids are trying to compare plot-driven narrative aimed at kids to character-driven narrative aimed at mature audience and claiming one is better.
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Greg, from which bloodline is the wielder of Shodai Kitetsu? My money’s on Kurozumi but Amatsuki makes sense too.
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Anyway just thought it was funny that kids are trying to compare plot-driven narrative aimed at kids to character-driven narrative aimed at mature audience and claiming one is better.
What an idiot. It's like comparing Indiana Jones to Se7en.
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Anyway just thought it was funny that kids are trying to compare plot-driven narrative aimed at kids to character-driven narrative aimed at mature audience and claiming one is better.
What he's saying is right, kind of, but I think it misses the point of why One Piece is praised as it is. Oda is working purely within the confines of Shonen Fiction without really subverting it, but is still able to accomplish more literary feats. He's doing this while making a story very much targeted towards young Japanese kids in a way most of his peers (in the shonen world) have not, in my opinion. Of course, even with that distinction there's a lot that can be validly criticized about One Piece and Oda, but I also think it's an accomplishment that it has such value while the dialogue and themes are so transparent.
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I think there are also deeper recurrent themes and symbolism in One Piece beyond the more superficial ones like friendship and pursuit of impossible dreams. I mean, it's not going to be a controversial statement on a forum like this one, but I think Oda is a master storyteller. I think he doesn't spell out the deeper themes, but instead leaves it to the readers. I forget where the interview was, but Oda said something to the effect that he writes the story in such a way that people on a higher reading levels will be able to appreciate the more nuanced themes. Best example of this I can think is the SBS question where Oda answers a reader question about what is happening in the country of Vira to have undergone another coup d'etat when it was once a peaceful island. He confirms the reader's suspicion that the location referenced in the log of Noland's adventure is indeed the same as the one Nami reads about en route to Logue Town. Importantly, Oda then returns the reader's question with one of his own. Rather than ask what's going on in Vira, a better question for the reader to ask as they go through the series is, 'what is going on in the world to create this situation?' Essentially, he's asking the reader to look at the series on a deeper level to better answer their question.
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So essentially it's a typical One Piece arc structure (or typical story structure, in general), just with curtains rising and closing in the middle to give space for interludes. And Hiyori doing the be-beng thingy :ninja:
With that said, I think it's a good thing we have these interludes where Oda pauses Wano and shows stuff happening around the world. It helps to give a real sense of progression to the arc, as well as allowing the readers to rest a bit from the story. This sort of resets the arc and makes every new act feel fresh. Oda used a similar tactic for the enormous Water 7/Enies Lobby arc, by changing locations to a brand new, totally different place, complete with an intermediate battle/comedy portion in the sea train. I think one of the big problems of Dressrosa was that he did not pull any of these things successfully. He tried to include a variety of places, by having Green Bit be a different island, then having Pica reorganize the layout of the land, essentially creating a new island for the fights to occur. But it wasn't nearly enough and the arc ended up feeling long and dragged out. We're 78 chapters into Wano (84 if we count the Reverie chapters!) and everything still feels fresh and in constant development. In Dressrosa, by the 50th chapter, every person in these forums was already sick of that place.
Good observation. Whole Cake Island also had this unique sense of progression following a specific linear path: Cacao > Sea > Seducing Woods > Chateau > Wedding, and then throwing a twist by making them return through the same path, with a recurring side-location that kept the final boss isolated from everyone else (Mirro-World) and the occasional detour every now and then like Nuts Island. Sanji also spent most of his time in the Germa Kingdom, so visual variety was never a problem.
It's strange that the arc is officially called Whole Cake Island Arc though, since half of it happens outside of the eponymous location.
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Good observation. Whole Cake Island also had this unique sense of progression following a specific linear path: Cacao > Sea > Seducing Woods > Chateau > Wedding, and then throwing a twist by making them return through the same path, with a recurring side-location that kept the final boss isolated from everyone else (Mirro-World) and the occasional detour every now and then like Nuts Island. Sanji also spent most of his time in the Germa Kingdom, so visual variety was never a problem.
It's strange that the arc is officially called Whole Cake Island Arc though, since half of it happens outside of the eponymous location.
It's the center of Totland and where the climax happens. Also, "Totland" doesn't pop out as a title as much as Whole Cake. Then there's the fact that BM is big on deals and taking the larger benefit. Her greed is like having the Whole Cake and eating it (have your cake and eat it too) phrase. Sanji "defeated" her with a cake, the list goes on. So many things you can do with that compared to bland ol Totland.
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I'm with king Cannon on this one. I always call it Totto Land arc exactly because of that. Because it was so much more than Whole Cake Island itself. But as long as everyone understands each other when referencing the arc, whatever.
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Am I one of the few that really really didn't like the Zoro vs Kamuzo fight in the anime?
Here’s how Naruto should end: Last panel is Naruto standing proudly over Konohagakure. Slowly zoom out to reveal Luffy staring into a snowglobe with a miniature Konoha inside it. Usopp asks him what he’s doing. Luffy replies “Thinkin’ bout ninjas! Ninjas are cool!” and then chucks it off the ship
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Am I one of the few that really really didn't like the Zoro vs Kamuzo fight in the anime?
I'm not watching the anime but checked this fight out and also didn't like it.
It reminded me of Captain Tsubasa (Zoro and Killer running kilometers to clash, even though they were face to face) and DBZ (too much lights and energy beams).
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Syrup aura strikes again. Nothing more talked about than syrup aura and Nami face as of now
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Am I one of the few that really really didn't like the Zoro vs Kamuzo fight in the anime?
Which fight in the anime has been good lately?
Anime been pumping out trying-hard-to-shove-visual-effects-for-the-sake-of-it and all of them are super boring. This one, in particular, was hard to look at due to how stupidly uncharacteristically this felt relation to the rest of the series.
Would've been more epic if it was simple and didn't try hard to mimic the style of other shonen animes.
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Which fight in the anime has been good lately?
Anime been pumping out trying-hard-to-shove-visual-effects-for-the-sake-of-it and all of them are super boring. This one, in particular, was hard to look at due to how stupidly uncharacteristically this felt relation to the rest of the series.
Would've been more epic if it was simple and didn't try hard to mimic the style of other shonen animes.
It would've definitely been better as a more grounded fight to keep the aesthetic of a traditional samurai battle… but boy were the effects so badly glaring
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That's why I liked it in the manga. It was simple and to the point.
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@Vongola_Boss_XI:
Oda said something to the effect that he writes the story in such a way that people on a higher reading levels will be able to appreciate the more nuanced themes
Source?
I don't ever remember Oda saying anything remotely close to it at all.
I think this might be the only time Oda touched upon on it:
"Does art tell you something? Does manga advocate something? As a matter of fact, I don't put any messages in the manga I draw. If I draw a story, the themes emerge all on their own. I do my utmost to find an answer in what I come up with, but each reader is entirely free to decide what he or she takes away from the story. So I don't send messages. But, hmm. It's not as if I don't have anything to say." Color Walk 2 (2003) , SWITCH (2009)
Which isn't him saying that he has "deeper" themes hidden away. Just saying that he didn't particularly "plan" for a certain theme to show up and ended up showing up organically.
One Piece is my favorite manga of all time and I have no problems saying that it isn't deep nor Oda is writing some deep series that should be analyzed for it's subtext. It's just not. Oda knows exactly who he is writing for which is teen boys.
One Piece, just like every story, obviously has messages to convey but that doesn't mean it has depth and that is perfectly ok. I never really understood the reason why people want to make One Piece into what its not. It is a rubber pirate manga aimed at teen boys.
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Greg I can completely understand if you don’t want to comment but do you have any ideas on what the match ups in Wano might be?
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…wow...
Where were you all when I tweeted my disdain for 'by-committee ' One Piece anime on Twitter and tookon an armada of sakuga fans alone?
Will get back to other questions in detail in a bit.
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I'm pretty sure the "higher reading level" was a Kubo thing, with his "level 5 secrets" and so on.
Or maybe that infamous, cringe Rick & Morty write up.
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Which fight in the anime has been good lately?
Anime been pumping out trying-hard-to-shove-visual-effects-for-the-sake-of-it and all of them are super boring. This one, in particular, was hard to look at due to how stupidly uncharacteristically this felt relation to the rest of the series.
Would've been more epic if it was simple and didn't try hard to mimic the style of other shonen animes.
uncharacteristic with the rest of the series how?
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It would've definitely been better as a more grounded fight to keep the aesthetic of a traditional samurai battle… but boy were the effects so badly glaring
Killer isnt a samurai tho, i thought the anime did good on that part given his style of fighting. It was very free.
and they gave us that with something like the zoro vs Gyukimaru fight.I understand the exaggeration of the miles between each. But the other aspects comes with a power fantasy series like OP
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That's why I liked it in the manga. It was simple and to the point.
But cant you also say the reason it was is because lately oda has been rushing some fights because of the numerous plots, stories, etc he has to focus on in the arc.
How I see it at this point, the anime is for filling and adding on what Oda prolly cant expound on in the manga due to time or whatever. So the stuff(Not just talking the fight, but everything particularly in Wano) seen in the anime that is a addition/extension to what was seen in the manga is prolly what he could have put in if he had time.
but given how present OP is now, with so much shit in each arc espescially one now like Wano. He prolly has to offpanel, and shorten stuff and leave the real length of how he wanted things to the anime. imo
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…wow...
Where were you all when I tweeted my disdain for 'by-committee ' One Piece anime on Twitter and tookon an armada of sakuga fans alone?
Will get back to other questions in detail in a bit.
you prolly been asked this before and alot so forgive me
but whats your opinion on the Anime's adaption of Wano?
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uncharacteristic with the rest of the series how?
In terms of how the battle is very much inspired by other generic shonen animes. Particularly the "second" half of the battle when Zoro gets hit by Killer. That whole sequence felt like Bleach or One Punch Man or some other generic shonen shit rather than One Piece.
Love it or hate it, but the battles in One Piece manga has never really relied on visual gimmicks as a way to drive itself. The anime, on the other hand, seems to consistently and constantly shove pointless "aura" or "beam" scenes, alongside explosions or environment on a similar scale as Bleach battles being destroyed, for the sake of appearing flashy. It's not exciting. It's just stupid and pointless and comes across as a super try-hard move from Toei.
This is just another reason on top of a giant list of reasons why the One Piece anime doesn't understand the manga.
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I find it silly how the anime is the best it's ever looked, and people are still complaining about it. I get complaints about the pacing - that's probably never going to get better at this point unless they take an extended break or go seasonal. But the animation and overall look of the show are leaps above what it's been. There's nothing wrong with adding some flair to the action scenes - which, by the way, have always looked better in those other "generic shonen anime", as you put it, than in the One Piece anime. The anime is actually taking some of the animation techniques that made those "generic" shows pop and be fun to watch to have more fun with the action scenes. If that's not to your taste, I get it, but plenty of people don't find it boring, and are actually getting excited by the anime for the first time in ages.
Hell, the anime doesn't "always" do this - the vast majority of Sanji vs Page One was fairly grounded with only the final blow being over the top, Zoro had a very grounded fight in the first episode of Wano, a lot of the fights against fodder didn't use those effects, etc. It mostly does it on the bigger moments to add a little more flair.
Is it over the top? Sure. Unneeded? Arguably. Would I trade it in for the largely static, uninspired fight scenes that we were mostly stuck with in the anime for so long? Hell no.
The anime still has plenty of problems, but for once the action is consistently animated at least decent, if not great. The additions of auras and environment destruction can be debated, but it feels more like the animators having fun than anything to me. The anime isn't the manga, and it's okay for it to have some fun every now and then and go over the top if you ask me.
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I mean just because it looks good doesn't mean it's actually good. And more to the point; it's not One Piece.
It works well for other animes that focus on the action and the flashy animation more than anything else. It just feels completely out of place for One Piece to be suddenly turned into Bleach or Seven Deadly Sins with shit just randomly exploding or breaking because YOU SEE THEY STRONG even though the manga conveyed the same without the effects.
I have no problem with the anime adding stuff (especially since it seems like Oda is gift-wrapping it for them) but the way they do it is by far the most retarded approach. Instead of adding anything meaningful to the fight, they add pointless effects that distract more than enhance the fights. Who got anything more from the fight that the manga didn't convey? Aside from the aura bullshit?
If you can't answer that then how are you talking about the anime "adding" stuff?
The anime is actually taking some of the animation techniques that made those "generic" shows pop and be fun to watch to have more fun with the action scenes.
That's like claiming that Zack Snyder is a good action-movie director because his movies are filled with mindless explosions and consistently bombard the audience with gimmicky visuals that people enjoy.
Compared to say Raid or Night comes for us where the action isn't about spectacle but about the actual tight choreography and skilled action-movie making. That also has weight and impact.
Most, if not all, modern shonen series rely on the Zack Snyder type effect when it comes to fights. And people enjoy it because of that. And that's fine.
But personally speaking; there is nothing more boring than seeing a fight that has no real substance, weight or impact and only exists for the sake of flashy, big spectacle action pieces. I'll take Luffy vs Usopp or Luffy vs Sanji over any of the modern shonen anime fights any day of the week.
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…wow...
Where were you all when I tweeted my disdain for 'by-committee ' One Piece anime on Twitter and tookon an armada of sakuga fans alone?
Will get back to other questions in detail in a bit.
I'm not on twitter, but I wouldve helped lol
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I mean just because it looks good doesn't mean it's actually good. And more to the point; it's not One Piece.
It works well for other animes that focus on the action and the flashy animation more than anything else. It just feels completely out of place for One Piece to be suddenly turned into Bleach or Seven Deadly Sins with shit just randomly exploding or breaking because YOU SEE THEY STRONG even though the manga conveyed the same without the effects.
I have no problem with the anime adding stuff (especially since it seems like Oda is gift-wrapping it for them) but the way they do it is by far the most retarded approach. Instead of adding anything meaningful to the fight, they add pointless effects that distract more than enhance the fights. Who got anything more from the fight that the manga didn't convey? Aside from the aura bullshit?
If you can't answer that then how are you talking about the anime "adding" stuff?
That's like claiming that Zack Snyder is a good action-movie director because his movies are filled with mindless explosions and consistently bombard the audience with gimmicky visuals that people enjoy.
Compared to say Raid or Night comes for us where the action isn't about spectacle but about the actual tight choreography and skilled action-movie making. That also has weight and impact.
Most, if not all, modern shonen series rely on the Zack Snyder type effect when it comes to fights. And people enjoy it because of that. And that's fine.
But personally speaking; there is nothing more boring than seeing a fight that has no real substance, weight or impact and only exists for the sake of flashy, big spectacle action pieces. I'll take Luffy vs Usopp or Luffy vs Sanji over any of the modern shonen anime fights any day of the week.
If you want to be technical, the manga does use these techniques - there's a Haki aura coming off of Zoro's swords and the ground around him is lifted up - though the anime does exaggerate it a great deal. I can see it seeming out of place to a certain degree, but it's not like this stuff isn't in One Piece at all - again, it's just exaggerated a lot.
Comparing this fight to Luffy vs Usopp and Luffy vs Sanji is absurd, because those fights have an insane amount of drama surrounding them in both mediums that make the fights so compelling. And in those cases, the anime did add some things that enhanced the fights - for the latter, they added some shots of Sanji looking surprised for a moment that Luffy was still standing and refusing to fight back, causing to hesitate for just a moment before continuing to attack. That added to the drama and was great, but it wouldn't have made sense without the dramatic context of the scene overall. This fight that you're complaining about? It's mostly used to get Zoro introduced to Hiyori, get an injury, and to get a badass Zoro moment. In other words, it's pretty much just a fun fight to make Zoro look cool and to get the plot moving, and we don't really find out about it's full significance until later.
What did the anime do to enhance the fight? They made Kamazo's laugh sound pained and almost like crying at times, alluding to what's going on with him. They gave Kamazo some attacks that feel natural for someone at his level - buzzsaw-like spins, creating a tornado, and air slashes - that also make him feel more comparable to Zoro, which makes sense given his real identity as one of the other Supernova. They reinforced how monstrous Zoro is - a point that the manga makes many times - through changes in lighting when we see his reaction to getting stabbed. And yes, they go very over the top at the end, and I can see how that could be distracting to some viewers - but again, what's the point of the scene? To make Zoro look like an absolute monster, and they use techniques from the animation medium to reinforce that, even if it is a little overkill.
Did the manga convey Zoro was a monster without going that over the top? Absolutely. The anime just had it's fun with it, and if you don't like how they did it, that's fine. One Piece is about so much more than the fights, which to be frank are only as strong as they are because of the context and background surrounding them. Adding these effects doesn't somehow make the show not One Piece anymore.
For the Zack Snyder vs The Raid comparison - I would absolutely agree that something like The Raid is more impressive and commendable than what Snyder does. However, something can be flashy and have spectacle and still be well-done and impressive. And for animation specifically? That moment of Zoro taking down Killer was impressive as all hell in terms of the animation and craft that went into it, regardless of whether you found the effects distracting or not. Did it have the tight choreography of The Raid? No. Would it be cool if it did? Hell yeah. Is the anime team capable of doing that? Eh….
Again, the anime has a lot of problems - a LOT of problems. But for the anime, our choices don't come down to Snyder or The Raid, if you want to use that example. Our choices really come down to Snyder or a PowerPoint presentation. Maybe you prefer the PowerPoint presentation. I'm glad that Snyder is something we can get now. If the Raid becomes an option, I'll be even more on board.
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The Zoro vs killer/kamazo fight. I thought it looked great in the anime, but I also thought it was an entirely different scene than it was in the manga. Yes, great animation and cool effects are dope!! Love to see it really, but when killer started sending basically Ki blasts at Zoro I was like “yea… this doesn’t feel like one piece”. Same thing with all those cubes that just got blasted up from the ground. The anime is different from the manga, so I get there will be differences like this, but I really would prefer if they tried to keep it kinda accurate. That scene felt like too much for what it is. You’re allowed to like it, and I don’t blame anyone for doing so because it really does look good, but I think there are ways to make a scene like that good without completely changing and dragonball-ifiying it.
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I liked the flying slashes that Killer sent out. Zoro's been doing it since Skypiea
I do agree with the Samurai vibe from earlier. I would hope the effects are more contained for when that comes up in the end. The Ryuo principle almost warrants that. I like the effects for Luffy
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Kaido is officially dead as a big bad villain. What a bad showing yet again and in arc that hasn't done him any favor.
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Greg, do you think Kaido and Yamato could be repaired?
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@Joy:
Kaido is officially dead as a big bad villain. What a bad showing yet again and in arc that hasn't done him any favor.
lol all this angst over a guy getting surprised
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On the effects-heavy Wano animation, I have to say I'm not much of a fan. It looks good, sure, but it doesn't look like One Piece (besides the whole other issue that only specific moments that can be tens of episodes apart tend to look this good and all the stuff in the middle, despite looking aesthetically nicer than it has before, still runs into a lot of the budget-saving issues it always has). It looks like something meant to go in an animation reel, not really anything built on the established setting and character skills. Flashy, but without substance.
In the What Oda Thinks About the Anime thread I proposed that I'd like to see a remade anime lean a little harder into the series' action, given that the current one lets it down so much. I think that could be mistaken for a statement that I want more things like this, but that's not the case. What I want is to see is animation that uses small details to bring out the little details of the world in ways still images never could. I want long shots of Luffy fighting where we see how the momentum of his actions warps his body and how his limbs snap back and whip around after a punch as they try to return to their original sizes while his main body zips around. I want actual sword exchanges from Zoro that justify the mouth-sword by working it in with subtle back and forward flicks of the head, deftly changing which side he's holding the blade on in the middle of the fight. Chopper dodging and moving through his environment with rapid form shifts. I want One Piece animation to look at all the crazy powers and add in just enough real world physics in how they move to really make it something challenging and distinct and memorable. I don't want Luffy smashing dragon-Kaido's head into the ground to create an explosion, I want to see it breaking buildings apart and shaking roof tiles free and rattling windows and signs and all those other physics simulations things in a real time shockwave that ripples out from the point of impact. Make that dragon feel heavy, not like he's made of fireworks.
There's so much potential for cool stuff that goes beyond flashy compositing effects and the same ground-explodes-into-cubes effect that's so trendy right now, and it saddens me to think that it's probably never going to be completely realised.
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On the effects-heavy Wano animation, I have to say I'm not much of a fan. It looks good, sure, but it doesn't look like One Piece (besides the whole other issue that only specific moments that can be tens of episodes apart tend to look this good and all the stuff in the middle, despite looking aesthetically nicer than it has before, still runs into a lot of the budget-saving issues it always has). It looks like something meant to go in an animation reel, not really anything built on the established setting and character skills. Flashy, but without substance.
In the What Oda Thinks About the Anime thread I proposed that I'd like to see a remade anime lean a little harder into the series' action, given that the current one lets it down so much. I think that could be mistaken for a statement that I want more things like this, but that's not the case. What I want is to see is animation that uses small details to bring out the little details of the world in ways still images never could. I want long shots of Luffy fighting where we see how the momentum of his actions warps his body and how his limbs snap back and whip around after a punch as they try to return to their original sizes while his main body zips around. I want actual sword exchanges from Zoro that justify the mouth-sword by working it in with subtle back and forward flicks of the head, deftly changing which side he's holding the blade on in the middle of the fight. Chopper dodging and moving through his environment with rapid form shifts. I want One Piece animation to look at all the crazy powers and add in just enough real world physics in how they move to really make it something challenging and distinct and memorable. I don't want Luffy smashing dragon-Kaido's head into the ground to create an explosion, I want to see it breaking buildings apart and shaking roof tiles free and rattling windows and signs and all those other physics simulations things in a real time shockwave that ripples out from the point of impact. Make that dragon feel heavy, not like he's made of fireworks.
There's so much potential for cool stuff that goes beyond flashy compositing effects and the same ground-explodes-into-cubes effect that's so trendy right now, and it saddens me to think that it's probably never going to be completely realised.
When you mention long shots of Luffy fighting, I think of the part from opening 11 where Luffy is fighting Blugori in Impel Down. It's a short clip, but the animation is fluid and feels like it's part of what's happening in the world. Beyond storytelling issues, I think the way Avatar: The Last Airbender and particularly Legend of Korra animated actions scenes is another good example.
Luffy, Zoro, Nami, Usopp, Sanji, Chopper, Robin, Franky, Brook, Jimbei, Carrot, Vivi, Smoker
"ONE PIECE, IT EXISTS" - The Great Pirate Edward Newgate
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My guess for Kanjuro and Orochi is that the man who can make art clones, and the decapitated man with more than one head will sit out this arc, to ally with blackbeard or to be Momo's actual battle or first challenge as Shogun after the strawhats leave. As things stand now, unless onigashima has a secret cache of explosives, or kanjuro can draw it, and they go on a revenge run, they can't do a thing now against so many enemies, without the Wano army and ninjas.
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@Vongola_Boss_XI:
When you mention long shots of Luffy fighting, I think of the part from opening 11 where Luffy is fighting Blugori in Impel Down. It's a short clip, but the animation is fluid and feels like it's part of what's happening in the world. Beyond storytelling issues, I think the way Avatar: The Last Airbender and particularly Legend of Korra animated actions scenes is another good example.
ATLA and Korra are a fantastic example of combining unique setting and power ideas with strong character animation to create something that transcends. TLA in particular is a fantastic example of lots of good things. I wonder if Oda's seen it. The OP 11 clip is a pretty good one too, so the current anime's definitely capable of more interesting cuts, even that far back. I wonder if they just don't have the power to change the choreography enough to work those things in, or if it's just that much easier/cheaper/quicker to go with lights and auras. Or they're just chasing the market that obviously exists for cubeground (which does look good and can work well and even could do so in One Piece, but just not where it's been used so far, from what I've seen).
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@Joy:
Kaido is officially dead as a big bad villain. What a bad showing yet again and in arc that hasn't done him any favor.
There's nothing official about it, since your criteria for that is very weird to say the least. Because he got pushed off a ledge? When he can fly?
Croc or Enel would never.Wanna see the "ancient civilization destroyed" thing done really well? FFXIV did a great take on it. The bar's high for One Piece to beat.
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I mean just because it looks good doesn't mean it's actually good. And more to the point; it's not One Piece.
Best way to describe my feelings on the Zoro anime fight.
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@Joy:
No because he got PTSD from Oden
I'd be scared too of the guy who gave me my only visible scar.
Croc or Enel would never.Wanna see the "ancient civilization destroyed" thing done really well? FFXIV did a great take on it. The bar's high for One Piece to beat.
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I'd be scared too of the guy who gave me my only visible scar.
Honestly don't even engage with Joy Boy.
He's a troll that spent the entirety of the Whole Cake Island arc's run complaining about how "Big Meme" wasn't as good as she was hyped up.
He's someone that has his headcanon power levels questioned and then complains about the manga. Every week.
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Honestly don't even engage with Joy Boy.
He's a troll that spent the entirety of the Whole Cake Island arc's run complaining about how "Big Meme" wasn't as good as she was hyped up.
He's someone that has his headcanon power levels questioned and then complains about the manga. Every week.
Tbh he's light compared to some of what I converse with. But I do appreciate it. I try to give people the benefit of the doubt unless they're overtly obviously toxic.
Big Meme… hmm. I can't help but feel like we mostly saw a nerfed Big Mom in WCI out of necessity since we had a skeleton crew. I found her to have a really impressive showing personally, since the Straw Hats and their friends suffered a lot just for trying to infiltrate and escape. I don't consider her to have taken any actual damage, maaaybe from Nami's thunder but I dunno, seemed more like a stun.
I don't sympathize with the Kaido deniers either because of a scar 20 years ago, when Shanks became a Yonkou in 6 years.
Croc or Enel would never.Wanna see the "ancient civilization destroyed" thing done really well? FFXIV did a great take on it. The bar's high for One Piece to beat.
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ATLA and Korra are a fantastic example of combining unique setting and power ideas with strong character animation to create something that transcends. TLA in particular is a fantastic example of lots of good things. I wonder if Oda's seen it. The OP 11 clip is a pretty good one too, so the current anime's definitely capable of more interesting cuts, even that far back. I wonder if they just don't have the power to change the choreography enough to work those things in, or if it's just that much easier/cheaper/quicker to go with lights and auras. Or they're just chasing the market that obviously exists for cubeground (which does look good and can work well and even could do so in One Piece, but just not where it's been used so far, from what I've seen).
The current director is the former director of Dragon Ball Super, the one that managed to turn that one from a complete shitshow into something watchable. They probably wanted him to do the same to One Piece (make this long-running anime less painful to watch), so I guess it's natural he's pulling the same tricks.
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Joy Boy is no troll, though. Whereas I don't agree with everything, it's not that his complaints are completely baseless.
I'm okay with this very scene here. But I overall agree that Oda messed up big time making Kaido a compelling and credible villain. However, the damage already was done way before. I won't go in detail, as Daz already made some very good remarks in the Oden vs. Kaido chapter thread regarding this issue.
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You guys should read the Kaidou introduction chapter.
And yes Joy Boy is a troll. That has been already established for anyone that has any sort of reading comprehension and can see the difference between what is stated in the text and what is being imagined in someone's head. Joy Boy's fundamental understanding of the concept of "Yonkou" is sooo flawed and stupid that it simply isn't worth any level of engagement.
People losing their shit about the Oden vs Kaidou fight when Oden was already established and recognized by Whitebeard and Roger as a strong fighter was hilarious though. As for compelling villain; I don't know about that as people who usually throw this vague term seems to flip flop between different reasons and don't seem to have any real credible "definition" of what that even means. It being used to describe Kaidou when he is in the background in a narrative that is still on-going is funny though.
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Having a point and being a troll are not mutually exclusive.
Not saying anyone is being one, just an observation
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Nope, Oda completely messed up the Oden vs. Kaido fight. It isn't even the fact that Kaido lost by itself. That'll actually be okay, if executed properly. Instead it's because Oda completely ignored some genre convention here. That is: If a villain like this (aka a hard-to-impossible to beat wall-boss) has to be beaten (inconclusively) before the actual climax, the beating has to make the villain look stronger (instead of weaker). A perfect execution of this genre convention is the Enel vs. Viper encounter. Here it's properly done. Yes, Viper did beat Enel, but the true purpose of this battle in fact was to make Enel look stronger and more intimidating by showing his ability to resurrect himself and come back perfectly fine again.
If Oden really had to win this encounter, that's fine, but then Oda had to do something similar to the Enel situation, in order to make Kaido look more menacing and more intimidating, and thus make Kaido an overall more compelling villain whose eventual defeat will therefore feel more cathartic. Like, Oden could bring Kaido down to the count with one single hit, but then some hax DF ability kicks in, signalizing Oden is super strong, surpasses Kaido effortlessly on raw strength and would easily have one-shotted Kaido, if he only didn't have that hax ability. However, ultimately he had the hax, thus Kaido managed to turn the tables - even if it involves way more difficulty and effort than Oden had to muster.
A scenario like this would be okay, however, instead we got that random old hag whose only narrative purpose it that Oda wrote himself totally in a corner and she somehow had to bail out Kaido and the plot, so that Kaido actually does not just get flat-out killed there. Seriously, that woman and that old man have no justification of even existing in the narrative - aside from fixing blatant narrative mistakes made by Oda.
If you disagree, just answer the following question: What do these old people add to the narrative that couldn't be added perfectly fine by Kaido and Orochi as well?
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I think some of you have an unhealthy obsession with power levels. If the dude isn't a totally clearheaded semi-god then Oda's writing is "weak".
Kaidou is the most intimidating foe we have encountered, easily. And he's not even in my top 5 villains.
BUT, what makes him pretty cool is that how many times he has tasted failure and total defeat. And is still kicking ass.
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hard-to-impossible to beat wall-boss
Kaidou's intro chapter very clearly pointed out that Kaidou had "lost" many times before.
That is consistent with his own character.
thus make Kaido an overall more compelling villain
Sorry, just have to ask this; but what is exactly "compelling" in this context or the character?
It seems to be thrown around quite a bit but has no real relevancy or even a point other than just some fancy word being thrown in, in order to suggest that Kaidou isn't hitting some "note" that villain characters need to hit in order to be compelling…..even though his character since his intro has been compelling as all hell?
Or is it about Kaidou not being a one-note ultimate god-like being who cannot be defeated until he is?
Also what do you think about Lucci in relation to Kaidou?
Kaido actually does not just get flat-out killed there
Kaidou wasn't going to be killed nor the scene implied it.
So…...
A perfect execution of this genre convention is the Enel vs. Viper encounter
A genre convention that you came up with. And an example that isn't even the same nor relevant. Never really heard about this genre before but ok, i guess.
We, the audience, already knew, based on showings and general impressions, that Viper will never take down Enel. Their abilities were already demonstrated to be on a completely different level.
That is just like Kyros "killing" Doflamingo in Dressrosa.
Oden and Kaidou's fight didn't exist for that same purpose. In fact, Kaidou vs Oden was treated like a Luffy against main opponent type fight, not the way Viper/Enel and Kyros/Doflamingo were written to be.
signalizing Oden is super strong, surpasses Kaido effortlessly on raw strength and would easily have one-shotted Kaido, if he only didn't have that hax ability
…....Devil fruit powers are one of the key fundamental abilities in the One Piece universe. Discounting them when it comes to fights in pretty.....pointless.
And can I see that breakdown? I'm sure you have a breakdown of how exactly strong Kaidou was in relation to Oden during that point.
aside from fixing blatant narrative mistakes made by Oda
Ah yes, Oda was just making sure he sticks to the genre convention that nobody knew about until now.
Makes perfect sense.
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Nope, Oda completely messed up the Oden vs. Kaido fight. It isn't even the fact that Kaido lost by itself. That'll actually be okay, if executed properly. Instead it's because Oda completely ignored some genre convention here. That is: If a villain like this (aka a hard-to-impossible to beat wall-boss) has to be beaten (inconclusively) before the actual climax, the beating has to make the villain look stronger (instead of weaker). A perfect execution of this genre convention is the Enel vs. Viper encounter. Here it's properly done. Yes, Viper did beat Enel, but the true purpose of this battle in fact was to make Enel look stronger and more intimidating by showing his ability to resurrect himself and come back perfectly fine again.
If Oden really had to win this encounter, that's fine, but then Oda had to do something similar to the Enel situation, in order to make Kaido look more menacing and more intimidating, and thus make Kaido an overall more compelling villain whose eventual defeat will therefore feel more cathartic. Like, Oden could bring Kaido down to the count with one single hit, but then some hax DF ability kicks in, signalizing Oden is super strong, surpasses Kaido effortlessly on raw strength and would easily have one-shotted Kaido, if he only didn't have that hax ability. However, ultimately he had the hax, thus Kaido managed to turn the tables - even if it involves way more difficulty and effort than Oden had to muster.
A scenario like this would be okay, however, instead we got that random old hag whose only narrative purpose it that Oda wrote himself totally in a corner and she somehow had to bail out Kaido and the plot, so that Kaido actually does not just get flat-out killed there. Seriously, that woman and that old man have no justification of even existing in the narrative - aside from fixing blatant narrative mistakes made by Oda.
If you disagree, just answer the following question: What do these old people add to the narrative that couldn't be added perfectly fine by Kaido and Orochi as well?
Completly agree.
Also, Oden leave wound to Kaido is poorly executed for me. As the only person that leave a scar on Kaido, it will be good if it handled like Zoro had to prepare and focus for one powerful attack and cut Golem Pica that looking the other way. But we got Kaido in full zoan form with full of opening and Oden just jump and attack it casually, no weight or anything, and it's even worse that Kaido had to be saved by granny.
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@Kucing:
Kaido had to be saved by granny.
If anything, this thread proves how completely different people's tastes are.
To me, that was so cool. What a pirate-y dirty trick! How loathsome! It's almost like Kaido is a sneaky old pirate, huh?
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If anything, this thread proves how completely different people's tastes are.
To me, that was so cool. What a pirate-y dirty trick! How loathsome! It's almost like Kaido is a sneaky old pirate, huh?
For it to be worth any pirate points he would've had to have planned it. Kaido chose to fight fair, the hag chose to cheat and Kaido clubbed her to death over it. Not very many sneak points to be claimed for him there. The hag could claim some but sadly she is disqualified for not being an actual pirate
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I totally get your point. To me, Kaido killing the hag just makes it even more funny/twisted.
Sneaky villain killing his sneaky underling for helping him. But that's veering too much to headcanon, maybe.
I just loved how all around pirate-y the whole thing was.
But then again, I also didn't have a issue Oden hurting Kaido.
