Kaine's doing a good job of defending the right to choose.
Indecision 2016 - In Soviet Russia, we elect american president!
-
-
@Steven:
To be fair it was probably his most relevant attempt to bring that up, as it is at least tied to foreign donors. Unfortunately he watered it down by forcing it so obviously earlier.
True, I can't fault him for that. Just unfortunate that this opportunity came up after his many attacks on Trump's tax returns.
-
"Whipped out that Mexican thing again".
-
Holy crap, Kaine's actually turning this around.
-
…Didn't Pence sign a law mandating women who have abortions to pay for a funeral for the fetus?
--- Update From New Post Merge ---
"Whipped out that Mexican thing again".
New thread title.
Also title of the Oxford History of the United States book about this era.
-
Now Pence is whining about the poor barren women who are disrespected by abortions.
-
"Why don't you trust women?"
-
"That may be the sixty four thousand dollar question."
headdesk -
Pence mentioned War on Coal, thereby renewing the contract West Virginia has with the devil.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Joe Biden runs in and gives Pence a DDT.
-
Pence will win the snap polls on style since it's relatively easy to look calm when you're lying all of the time.
On the other hand, the mere fact Kaine interrupted so much is going to guarantee that references to Trump's comments and not releasing his tax returns will be in almost every article about the debate.
-
Welp, that's that. Donald Trump still looks like shit if not worse after Tim Kaine went after him the whole night. Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama look worse after Mike Pence methodically attacked the administration's 8 year run. Tim Kaine looks worse for coming off like a repetitive attack dog looking for zingers. Mike Pence did well for himself by trying to distance himself and Trump as far away from the truth as possible. Sooo…what just happened?
Good job Pence if you were running for president.
-
Pence to receive forty lashes for lying about how much The Donald loves Comrade Vlad.
-
Pence kept whining about Hillary being insulting and that his campaign wasn't doing that.
Meanwhile:
http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/10/4/13169830/mike-pence-kaine
-
Welp, that's that. Donald Trump still looks like shit if not worse after Tim Kaine went after him the whole night. Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama look worse after Mike Pence methodically attacked the administration's 8 year run. Tim Kaine looks worse for coming off like a repetitive attack dog looking for zingers. Mike Pence did well for himself by trying to distance himself and Trump as far away from the truth as possible. Sooo…what just happened?
Two Vice President Candidates had their first and only debate which will be forgotten more or less by the time of the next presidential debate.
-
I think we're going to see Pence as the candidate in four years. It's unlikely that he'll be able to save the sinking Trump ship, but he's undoubtedly made a major impact on the public tonight.
-
Pence kept whining about Hillary being insulting and that his campaign wasn't doing that.
Meanwhile:
http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/10/4/13169830/mike-pence-kaine
Haha, the title of this article says it all.
http://www.vox.com/2016/10/4/13168418/mike-pence-defend-trump
Two Vice President Candidates had their first and only debate which will be forgotten more or less by the time of the next presidential debate.
Yeah, I don't expect this debate to make a significant difference in the presidential race as I highly doubt either of these 2 changed anybody's mind's on Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump.
-
Pretty much nothing is going to top Biden beating Paul Ryan to death with a steel girder.
-
Pence will win the snap polls on style since it's relatively easy to look calm when you're lying all of the time.
On the other hand, the mere fact Kaine interrupted so much is going to guarantee that references to Trump's comments and not releasing his tax returns will be in almost every article about the debate.
That is pure brilliance.
-
Two Vice President Candidates had their first and only debate which will be forgotten more or less by the time of the next presidential debate.
I hope you're right. Trump is driving a lot of people away for various reasons, but I'm afraid that some undecided voters will overlook his shortcomings due to a somewhat moderate VP at his side.
-
Yeah, I don't expect this debate to make a significant difference in the presidential race as I highly doubt either of these 2 changed anybody's mind's on Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump.
If Trump keeps finding new ways to shoot himself in the foot it definitely won't matter and at worst he'll take the GOP and Pence's chances in 2020 down with him.
-
CNN focus group gives the win to Kaine by the way.
-
Just curious here. How influential are the VP debates when it comes to the US elections? Does it cause any significant swing among voters?
-
@xan:
Just curious here. How influential are the VP debates when it comes to the US elections? Does it cause any significant swing among voters?
Absolutely not. VP candidates occasionally affect the race (see: Palin, Sarah) but the debates themselves have an extremely minimal impact.
-
@xan:
Just curious here. How influential are the VP debates when it comes to the US elections? Does it cause any significant swing among voters?
Generally not at all. It's extremely unusual for Trump to hand off the entire job of President to Pence if elected, but I don't think Pence's performance will help Trump at all.
-
@xan:
Just curious here. How influential are the VP debates when it comes to the US elections? Does it cause any significant swing among voters?
Not really; it can disrupt a media narrative like Biden's DELAWARE SMASH did but, in terms of shifting an actual race, there's no evidence that the VP debate actually does that.
The most famous moment ever from a VP debate was Lloyd Bentsen brutalizing Quayle with the Kennedy line but that didn't actually change anything.
-
@xan:
Just curious here. How influential are the VP debates when it comes to the US elections? Does it cause any significant swing among voters?
Historically, not very. Basically the idea is that the next presidential debate is and always has been very soon after the VP debate and any small bump caused by the VP debate is usually eclipsed by the presidential debate. A win at the VP debate FOLLOWED by a win at the next Presidential debate can work together to cause a decent little boost on top of what it already would have done, but barring a miracle, that being a COMPLETE 180 in temperament for Trump, I think it's safe to say Trump's not doing well anytime soon.
However, this isn't quite a typical election. There is some questioning the fact that Trump is such a radically different candidate, and what that means for the VP debate. Specifically that it will speak to two particular groups of voters:
The smarter conservatives that are upset at Trump's failings. IE, the same ones who burnt their Voter Registration cards in effigy.
and second, the "NeverHillary" Progressives, also knows as the "Bernie or Bust" crowd etc that have been saying for a while that they can go ahead and make a protest vote because Trump can't really screw the country up THAT bad. Those people might take this and the stories that Trump plans to be a figurehead and let Pence actually run the country as proof it won't be as bad as it seems…. So they can go right ahead and throw away their votes on Stein or Johnson.
For what it's worth, Nate Silver and Co. of FiveThirtyEight summed it up well in their debate liveblog, and I think I'll quote them here:
@FiveThirtyEight Staff:
Nate Silver: The conventional wisdom rapidly seems to be congealing around something like the following — which I pretty much agree with: 1. Pence “won” on style/points, whereas Kaine was annoying and interrupt-y at some moments and sounded canned at others, but 2. Pence was unable/unwilling to defend Drumpf and had a lot of incongruities and fact-checking problems, and that’ll make for a big debate about the debate tomorrow.
Ben: Whatever Drumpf tweets later tonight. Or says tomorrow. Or whatever David A. Fahrenthold reports in The Washington Post tomorrow. Point being, I’d be surprised if anything from tonight lasts much beyond one news cycle. To the extent people DO talk about the debate, I suspect there will be two storylines: Kaine’s interruptions, and Pence’s reluctance to defend Drumpf’s more controversial statements.
Anna: Democrats will talk about Pence saying “whipping out that Mexican thing again”; Republicans will talk about Kaine’s interruptions. And then we won’t hear much about it after that, until Pence runs for office again.
-
I think we're going to see Pence as the candidate in four years. It's unlikely that he'll be able to save the sinking Trump ship, but he's undoubtedly made a major impact on the public tonight.
Pence is deeply unpopular in his home state to the extent that his re-election there was very in question and may have contributed to his willingness to bother with Trump in the first place, and the view count on the VP debates is likely to be insanely dismal. Also he's a Culture Wars conservative, which is very nearly unelectable on the national stage now let alone in four more years.
-
Being a raging homophobe could've gotten him far in 2012.
But no, being a blatant racist is all the rage nowadays.
-
@Monkey:
Pence is deeply unpopular in his home state to the extent that his re-election there was very in question and may have contributed to his willingness to bother with Trump in the first place, and the view count on the VP debates is likely to be insanely dismal. Also he's a Culture Wars conservative, which is very nearly unelectable on the national stage now let alone in four more years.
Deeply unpopular is a bit overselling it- I've seen numbers in the 40s and low 50s for Pence, compared to low 50s for Kaine in Virginia. Too low to win re-election, yes, but he's also solidified Trump's lead in Indiana.
Pence apparently got off scot-free on his extreme social conservatism tonight so who knows what the discussion will be like in four years.
-
If Pence does make a run for the white house it'll involve him twisting himself into a pretzel throwing shade at Trump while trying to make people forget he was his VP pick.
-
I think this video hits home on why Trump wouldn't make a good president, among all the other crap he's said/done.
Some of the comments are saying that Joe Biden would have been a better Democratic presidential candidate, what do you think?
-
One thing that will be interesting over the next few days is to see how Trump reacts to Pence's performance when it sinks in; not just the lack of defending him but the mere fact that people will be praising Pence's performance in the debate compared to Trump's. Not being the center of attention is going to work on him and bringing up his own running mate being unable to defend his comments would be a good way to get under his skin in the next debate.
Of course, there's also the fact that the GOP advance narrative of him winning made a big deal about him attacking Hillary effectively and all he really managed on that were generic Republican talking points. There's a pretty good chance that the most memorable thing Pence said will go down as the Mexican comment and not anything positive that he said about his campaign or negative that he said about Hillary.
Some of the comments are saying that Joe Biden would have been a better Democratic presidential candidate, what do you think?
He had a lot more legislative experience so it's possible. The main problem Obama had was trying to work too much with Republicans early on rather than pressing forward with his agenda with just his own party. Biden was unlikely to do that.
-
I think this video hits home on why Trump wouldn't make a good president, among all the other crap he's said/done.
Some of the comments are saying that Joe Biden would have been a better Democratic presidential candidate, what do you think?
…I would kill to see Biden debate Pence.
-
Some of the comments are saying that Joe Biden would have been a better Democratic presidential candidate, what do you think?
…..
[hide]@actual:
Beau prolly got PTSD from all the coke-sniffing in the Biden family.
I heard the daughter used to sniff big, fat lines right off the old man's hole-stuffer.
Funnily enough someone called this guy a deplorable.[/hide]
-
Just another asshole irrationally hating on someone not hateable and another whose no longer among the living.
-
It is youtube. At least Biden and his family aren't letting the haters get them down.
Ethan made a really good point here:
-
Sorry, the debate took my attention so I wasn't able to respond to this, responding now:
The Alt-Right is a very small group. Evangelicals are about ten percent of the population at most, and at this point a majority of us just hate them outright. You should be more worried about Islamic terrorism than Pence getting any traction with an agenda like that.
The Alt-Right and the Evangelicals may not make up a large bloc of the population, but voter turnout is always crap.
only about 57% of eligible voters actually voted in 2012. That's almost half the country not voting.
When you have numbers like that, being able to galvanize more than typical of a certain group or groups can have a bigger effect than you think.
What's more, Islamic terror attacks RARELY affect LGBT people specifically. We have one very big example this year of course, but then look back at the last 10 or more Terror attacks and none of them were directed specifically at LGBT people.
Meanwhile, in America, LGBT people are still attacked and discriminated against by people who aren't muslim all the time.
I'm not going to take the Muslim hate-bait because we do have one example of Islamic Terror against us, no matter how particularly horrifying it is.
Maybe so, but conversion therapy specifically?
This is the reason that post started with "Is it bad that" I feel that way.
I realize to some extent that it's irrational and hard to pull off, but my mind went to the absolute worst possible thing.
One thing Pence has already done in his home state is to make ridiculous laws and restrictions on Abortion. If he can't make it outright illegal, he can make it harder to get. The list of things he and those like him try include: Making it a law that you have to pay for, and hold a funeral for the fetus, assign fetuses Lawyers to fight on their behalf, teach children (falsely) that having an abortion makes a person more likely to have a miscarriage later in life when they're actually TRYING to have a kid, and requiring doctors to give a presentation and pamphlet to anyone asking for an abortion with false info to try to scare them out of it.
It's not a stretch from there to imagine a law where a trans person has to go through a round of Conversion Therapy to confirm we're serious about transitioning before letting us get meds for example.
I do, however, realize that nobody has actually tried to do this or suggested it directly yet, but several republican lawmakers have referred to being trans as being "Predators" and "Mentally Ill" so it's not a stretch that they may try to force us to be "Cured".
The fact that nothing tangible exists yet to support this tho is why I said "Is it bad that" when I started.That being said, things that I'm sure WILL actually happen if Pence and Trump win:
[- Attempt to roll back Marriage Equality. Either by undermining it with smaller bills like they do with Abortion or appointing supreme court justices who will undo it.
-
Ban Adoption agencies from letting Gay parents to adopt, or at least make them able to refuse service if they want.
-
Make discrimination against LGBT people fully and completely legal if the person cites a "Sincerely held religious belief".
-
Cut Make Conversion Therapy nation wide, even on minors, and give it Government funding.
-
Ban me from using the bathroom in public punishable by jail time as "Trespassing" just like North Carolina's HB2.](http://www.hrc.org/blog/republican-national-committee-passes-most-overtly-anti-lgbtq-platform-in-hi)
-
-
I'm not going to take the Muslim hate-bait because we do have one example of Islamic Terror against us, no matter how particularly horrifying it is.
It's not hate-bait, it's a factual event that actually happened, and it was relevant as an example of the worst possible thing to happen to LGBT people in this day and age. Conversion therapy has been universally panned for years now, and the government has never forced it on anyone to my knowledge.
This is the reason that post started with "Is it bad that" I feel that way.
I realize to some extent that it's irrational and hard to pull off, but my mind went to the absolute worst possible thing.
One thing Pence has already done in his home state is to make ridiculous laws and restrictions on Abortion. If he can't make it outright illegal, he can make it harder to get. The list of things he and those like him try include: Making it a law that you have to pay for, and hold a funeral for the fetus, assign fetuses Lawyers to fight on their behalf, teach children (falsely) that having an abortion makes a person more likely to have a miscarriage later in life when they're actually TRYING to have a kid, and requiring doctors to give a presentation and pamphlet to anyone asking for an abortion with false info to try to scare them out of it.
It's not a stretch from there to imagine a law where a trans person has to go through a round of Conversion Therapy to confirm we're serious about transitioning before letting us get meds for example.
I do, however, realize that nobody has actually tried to do this or suggested it directly yet, but several republican lawmakers have referred to being trans as being "Predators" and "Mentally Ill" so it's not a stretch that they may try to force us to be "Cured".
The fact that nothing tangible exists yet to support this tho is why I said "Is it bad that" when I started.That being said, things that I'm sure WILL actually happen if Pence and Trump win:
[- Attempt to roll back Marriage Equality. Either by undermining it with smaller bills like they do with Abortion or appointing supreme court justices who will undo it.
-
Ban Adoption agencies from letting Gay parents to adopt, or at least make them able to refuse service if they want.
-
Make discrimination against LGBT people fully and completely legal if the person cites a "Sincerely held religious belief".
-
Cut Make Conversion Therapy nation wide, even on minors, and give it Government funding.
-
Ban me from using the bathroom in public punishable by jail time as "Trespassing" just like North Carolina's HB2.](http://www.hrc.org/blog/republican-national-committee-passes-most-overtly-anti-lgbtq-platform-in-hi)
That would all be really terrible. I'm annoyed that you seem to think I have some sort of irrational hatred of Muslims, though.
In any case, what we really have to worry about is Pence running and beating Hillary in 4 years.
-
-
Watching the Daily Show reaction to the VP Debate, and Trevor Noah describes Pence as that guy who can't convince his friend not to drive drunk but is very good at convincing the police that he isn't actually drunk.
Also the most consistent compliment he had for Trump is "broad-shouldered"
-
I think Kaine accomplished the goal he set out for last night, that goal being, keeping Pence on the defensive, show that he doesn't really support or back Trump–or, it's nigh impossible to defend Trump--and to get some soundbites that can be used by the Clinton Campaign against Trump. Kaine really did hurt Pence the second half of that debate, especially with that "Mexican thing" comment, and Pence himself he stating Trump isn't a polished politician, or even, a politician for that matter (i.e. he's a rookie who really doesn't know what he's doing on a global stage).
Like...apparently, Trump is disappointed how Pence performed during the debate, and Pence not really defended Trump's comments and beliefs. I do wish Kaine attacked Pence on his LGBT stances though...but at least he attacked him on Abortion.
Hopefully...LGBT rights and Climate Change come up at the final, town hall debate.
--- Update From New Post Merge ---
…I would kill to see Biden debate Pence.
To be honest…Kaine is pretty much younger Biden, we are just use to Biden is all.
Pence is a politician through and through, and almost practically always remains calm. Dude is a complete snake though. Biden would have gotten the same responses from him though.
-
It's not hate-bait, it's a factual event that actually happened, and it was relevant as an example of the worst possible thing to happen to LGBT people in this day and age. Conversion therapy has been universally panned for years now, and the government has never forced it on anyone to my knowledge.
That would all be really terrible. I'm annoyed that you seem to think I have some sort of irrational hatred of Muslims, though.
I didn't say you did, but you are parroting THE talking point that gets used every time Trump supporters want to prove he's better for LGBT people.
"I know he wants to take away Marriage, legalize conversion therapy and discrimination and outlaw trans bathroom rights but, he's gonna deport the Muslims and one of them just attacked LGBT people, so he's better".
Plus, I hate when "Islamic Terrorism" gets mentioned specifically when other kinds of terrorism get ignored.
I'm concerned about Terrorism. Calling out Specifically "Islamic" terrorism is exactly the thing that makes some people in this country think it can "Only be terrorism if the guy doing it is brown".
In any case, what we really have to worry about is Pence running and beating Hillary in 4 years.
-
I didn't say you did, but you are parroting THE talking point that gets used every time Trump supporters want to prove he's better for LGBT people.
"I know he wants to take away Marriage, legalize conversion therapy and discrimination and outlaw trans bathroom rights but, he's gonna deport the Muslims and one of them just attacked LGBT people, so he's better".
Plus, I hate when "Islamic Terrorism" gets mentioned specifically when other kinds of terrorism get ignored.
I'm concerned about Terrorism. Calling out Specifically "Islamic" terrorism is exactly the thing that makes some people in this country think it can "Only be terrorism if the guy doing it is brown".
It's Radical Islamic Terrorism. :ninja: lol
But yeah. The kind of speech and rhetoric that Trump spews on a daily basis at his "rallies" about Muslims and Mexicans (mostly Muslims) is very similar to Adolf Hitler and his "Jew speeches", it's almost scary; it IS scary. Heck… Dude, well...his running mate, who WILL be the one running the country if Trump did win (he's not), is extremely anti-LGBT, another group Hitler persecuted. Trump even mocks the disabled, another Hitler and Reich targeted group.
--- Update From New Post Merge ---
Such a nice man.
-
It's not hate-bait, it's a factual event that actually happened, and it was relevant as an example of the worst possible thing to happen to LGBT people in this day and age. Conversion therapy has been universally panned for years now, and the government has never forced it on anyone to my knowledge.
The fact that the event happened was never disputed.
You said, "You should be more worried about Islamic terrorism than Pence getting any traction with an agenda like that."
Which is false. Also, the fact that you're telling someone who is part of and probably has a better understanding of the threats and dangers to the LGBT community, what the LGBT community should be more worried about is…well...I don't know. You might say it's your opinion and that's cool. I can guess.
Demon Rin and Monkey King are right. An act of terrorism of a scale of what you're talking about against the LGBT community is such a rarity compared to the regressive laws politicians try to push every year (with varying degrees of success) to roll back rights which will directly affect millions of people around the country and their day to day lives. Is terrorism a real and worrisome threat? Yes, without a doubt. No one has said otherwise. But should the LGBT community really be more worried about that than the ever present, every day, persistent discrimination by their fellow citizens and people who have the power to change the law? Discrimination which also results in death, general acts of violence, and sexual harrasment of hundreds of individuals every year. I think we should listen to Demon Rin on this one. But, yeah, it's all bad.,
-
I didn't say you did, but you are parroting THE talking point that gets used every time Trump supporters want to prove he's better for LGBT people.
"I know he wants to take away Marriage, legalize conversion therapy and discrimination and outlaw trans bathroom rights but, he's gonna deport the Muslims and one of them just attacked LGBT people, so he's better".
Plus, I hate when "Islamic Terrorism" gets mentioned specifically when other kinds of terrorism get ignored.
I'm concerned about Terrorism. Calling out Specifically "Islamic" terrorism is exactly the thing that makes some people in this country think it can "Only be terrorism if the guy doing it is brown".
Well… I have to admit that I'm very frustrated with the common leftist attitude of completely ignoring Islamic terrorism because "discussing it is racist towards Muslims (an ideology, not a race, and we should all know that only a very small percentage of Muslims actually commit terrorist acts). I'm also disgusted with Trump and the Alt-Right's horribly bigoted "solution" of "one bad apple spoils the bunch, so let's kick them all out". Fortunately Hillary seems to hold a reasonable middle ground position.
The reason people like me are so focused on Islamic terrorism is that the problem is massive, and I've heard from many sources that it dwarfs all other international terrorism. I've also seen statistics like this.
With all of the Islamic terrorism I've heard about in Europe as of late, I've noticed a serious discrepancy. If nonreligious terrorist attacks outnumber religious attacks 50 to 1, why does the global media focus on almost nothing else?
I went to Wikipedia and found my answer. Islamic terrorism causes far more deaths and injuries than other forms of terrorism.Since such a small number of Muslims actually commit terrorism, there's obviously no connection between their racial/ethnic makeup and the sudden radicalization that most Islamic terrorists seem to undergo. There's also no reason to blame mainstream Muslims for the actions of those few. Lone wolf terrorists who self-radicalize are a major concern, however.
As for Trump… there's absolutely no reason to believe that he knows anything about keeping America safe from terrorism of any kind.
I only brought up the Orlando shooting as an example of something extremely rare and unlikely that actually happened, as opposed to your fear of mandatory conversion therapy which thankfully has never happened and almost definitely never will. It was like me saying "you should be more afraid of meteor strikes than aliens invading."
The fact that the event happened was never disputed.
You said, "You should be more worried about Islamic terrorism than Pence getting any traction with an agenda like that."
Which is false. Also, the fact that you're telling someone who is part of and probably has a better understanding of the threats and dangers to the LGBT community, what the LGBT community should be more worried about is…well...I don't know. You might say it's your opinion and that's cool. I can guess.
I think the problem is that we disagree on how similar Pence's actual agenda and the actual anti-LGBT discrimination laws being pushed today are to what would in practice be concentration camps for LGBT people.
There isn't really anything I can defend about those laws, and they're awful. I can't really argue with an LGBT person about how they feel discriminated against. Nonetheless… my views exist, and they're very similar to yours and Demon Rin's.
Is it really such a bad thing that I feel our country has a bright future ahead for LGBT people?
-
Well… I have to admit that I'm very frustrated with the common leftist attitude of completely ignoring Islamic terrorism because "discussing it is racist towards Muslims (an ideology, not a race, and we should all know that only a very small percentage of Muslims actually commit terrorist acts). I'm also disgusted with Trump and the Alt-Right's horribly bigoted "solution" of "one bad apple spoils the bunch, so let's kick them all out". Fortunately Hillary seems to hold a reasonable middle ground position.
The reason people like me are so focused on Islamic terrorism is that the problem is massive, and I've heard from many sources that it dwarfs all other international terrorism. I've also seen statistics like this.
With all of the Islamic terrorism I've heard about in Europe as of late, I've noticed a serious discrepancy. If nonreligious terrorist attacks outnumber religious attacks 50 to 1, why does the global media focus on almost nothing else?
I went to Wikipedia and found my answer. Islamic terrorism causes far more deaths and injuries than other forms of terrorism.Ok, to answer this, I'm going to use something you said to help:
Since such a small number of Muslims actually commit terrorism, there's obviously no connection between their racial/ethnic makeup and the sudden radicalization that most Islamic terrorists seem to undergo. There's also no reason to blame mainstream Muslims for the actions of those few. Lone wolf terrorists who self-radicalize are a major concern, however.
See, YOU get this. Therefore you aren't exactly a problem, but the majority of the people parroting these talking points about "Islamic Terrorism" are the kind that don't. They follow the Trumpian philosophy that we should be suspicious of ALL Muslims as a result. This causes an admittently knee-jerk reaction to the term "Islamic Terrorism" as a result.
I think that's why Hillary and Obama are usually careful to refer to it as "Radical Islamic Terrorism" or to say they're against "Radical Islam".
Small distinction I know, but it does help differentiate a bit and probably helps to not give fuel to ISIS and their ilk who like to take Videos of Donald Trump saying his BS Anti-Muslim stuff and use it in Recruitment videos.
I only brought up the Orlando shooting as an example of something extremely rare and unlikely that actually happened, as opposed to your fear of mandatory conversion therapy which thankfully has never happened and almost definitely never will. It was like me saying "you should be more afraid of meteor strikes than aliens invading."
I think the problem is that we disagree on how similar Pence's actual agenda and the actual anti-LGBT discrimination laws being pushed today are to what would in practice be concentration camps for LGBT people.
Ok, Gonna repeat this really quick. When I said that, I was aware I was going with a worst case scenario that, while technically possible, is VERY out there and very unlikely to happen as a result. I'm aware it's irrational to be afraid of, that's why I asked "Is it bad" that I am.
Also, while it's unlikely, it's not QUITE as far fetched as you're making it out to be.
Right now most states ALREADY mandate Therapy for Trans people. For example, in my state, they require 3 months of Therapy minimum before you can be prescribed hormones. They do this ostensibly to weed out the people who are actually trans with the people who aren't and might be transitioning for the wrong reasons. I once knew a somewhat feminine gay guy who was battling in his mind with identity. Since the society was telling him being a feminine guy was a bad thing, he was super depressed about it and was questioning if he might be Trans. He eventually came to the conclusion he's not and just embraced the way he is and how he wants to act.
The goal of the Therapy is to help people like me, who are trans, transition and to grab people like him who aren't sure, and stop the people like him from making a mistake.
A lot of Trans people don't like this system and I'd be lying if I said I didn't also think it has problems since the therapy usually isn't covered by insurance, and for a person like me who has always been sure, it feels like a burden we shouldn't have to go through… but it's required by law.
Considering that these lawmakers have no problem with forcing doctors to outright lie to women who want an abortion to try to scare them out of it, or saying they're trying to keep women safe by "closing ill-equipped abortion clinics" which actually closes ALL the abortion clinics within 100 miles of that location... it's not THAT much of a stretch that Pence and his ilk might try to say "Well, we need to protect folks who might not actually be trans, so we're going to Regulate what kind of therapy you need to get to be sure" and the mandate might be that the therapist needs to try to convince you you aren't trans.
BUT AGAIN, I'm aware this isn't being actually talked about by anyone and is a big long shot, so AGAIN, I'm aware my fear of it is irrational.
There isn't really anything I can defend about those laws, and they're awful. I can't really argue with an LGBT person about how they feel discriminated against. Nonetheless… my views exist, and they're very similar to yours and Demon Rin's.
Is it really such a bad thing that I feel our country has a bright future ahead for LGBT people?
The problem is, all the progress we HAVE made happened because we fought for it and we campaigned and we marched and we protested and we educated people.
I think we are overall trending towards progress, but the people who hate us STILL exist and STILL want to hurt us, and I firmly believe that everything the RNC says they want to do is possible under a Trump-Pence presidency.
Hell, the SCoTUS picks ALONE are an issue. Most of our biggest wins over the last decade came from SCOTUS. If we lose ANY of the liberal justices for ANY reason, like if one of them Retires? They can get a Conservative majority on the court and then set to completely undoing an entire decade of progress.
what's more, since these are lifetime appointments? We're stuck for 30 years in that case.
So yeah, we've won the battle and there's a clear path to winning the war, but we can still be hit HARD.
-
The deaths from Islamic terrorism in Europe this year are far less than the deaths caused by Russia's continuing presence in Ukraine in the same year.
170 compared to 542. -
See, YOU get this. Therefore you aren't exactly a problem, but the majority of the people parroting these talking points about "Islamic Terrorism" are the kind that don't. They follow the Trumpian philosophy that we should be suspicious of ALL Muslims as a result. This causes an admittently knee-jerk reaction to the term "Islamic Terrorism" as a result.
I think that's why Hillary and Obama are usually careful to refer to it as "Radical Islamic Terrorism" or to say they're against "Radical Islam".
Small distinction I know, but it does help differentiate a bit and probably helps to not give fuel to ISIS and their ilk who like to take Videos of Donald Trump saying his BS Anti-Muslim stuff and use it in Recruitment videos.
I don't really like the term 'Radical Islam' because it brings to mind terrorism carried out by a single well-staffed organization. ISIS does exist, but most Islamic terrorists seem to be lone wolves who never actually connect with ISIS. I do understand the desire to not use the same language as Trump (with him being a bigot and all), but I'm not really sure how to solve that issue.
Ok, Gonna repeat this really quick. When I said that, I was aware I was going with a worst case scenario that, while technically possible, is VERY out there and very unlikely to happen as a result. I'm aware it's irrational to be afraid of, that's why I asked "Is it bad" that I am.
Also, while it's unlikely, it's not QUITE as far fetched as you're making it out to be.
Right now most states ALREADY mandate Therapy for Trans people. For example, in my state, they require 3 months of Therapy minimum before you can be prescribed hormones. They do this ostensibly to weed out the people who are actually trans with the people who aren't and might be transitioning for the wrong reasons. I once knew a somewhat feminine gay guy who was battling in his mind with identity. Since the society was telling him being a feminine guy was a bad thing, he was super depressed about it and was questioning if he might be Trans. He eventually came to the conclusion he's not and just embraced the way he is and how he wants to act.
The goal of the Therapy is to help people like me, who are trans, transition and to grab people like him who aren't sure, and stop the people like him from making a mistake.
A lot of Trans people don't like this system and I'd be lying if I said I didn't also think it has problems since the therapy usually isn't covered by insurance, and for a person like me who has always been sure, it feels like a burden we shouldn't have to go through… but it's required by law.
Considering that these lawmakers have no problem with forcing doctors to outright lie to women who want an abortion to try to scare them out of it, or saying they're trying to keep women safe by "closing ill-equipped abortion clinics" which actually closes ALL the abortion clinics within 100 miles of that location... it's not THAT much of a stretch that Pence and his ilk might try to say "Well, we need to protect folks who might not actually be trans, so we're going to Regulate what kind of therapy you need to get to be sure" and the mandate might be that the therapist needs to try to convince you you aren't trans.
BUT AGAIN, I'm aware this isn't being actually talked about by anyone and is a big long shot, so AGAIN, I'm aware my fear of it is irrational.
It wasn't meant as an attack on you, and I'm sorry for coming across that way.
Outerspec kind of attacked me in coming to your defense, so I needed to clarify what I'd said.
Also, it really sucks that insurance generally doesn't cover therapy. I've had bad experiences with that in my life as well; Obamacare still has a long way to go, and hopefully Hillary can improve it over the next 4-8 years.
@Demon:The problem is, all the progress we HAVE made happened because we fought for it and we campaigned and we marched and we protested and we educated people.
I think we are overall trending towards progress, but the people who hate us STILL exist and STILL want to hurt us, and I firmly believe that everything the RNC says they want to do is possible under a Trump-Pence presidency.
Hell, the SCoTUS picks ALONE are an issue. Most of our biggest wins over the last decade came from SCOTUS. If we lose ANY of the liberal justices for ANY reason, like if one of them Retires? They can get a Conservative majority on the court and then set to completely undoing an entire decade of progress.
what's more, since these are lifetime appointments? We're stuck for 30 years in that case.
So yeah, we've won the battle and there's a clear path to winning the war, but we can still be hit HARD.
It's really unfortunate that so few people can hold so much power for such a long time. Supreme court nominations shouldn't be a factor in the presidential race at all, ideally.
@Monkey:
The deaths from Islamic terrorism in Europe this year are far less than the deaths caused by Russia's continuing presence in Ukraine in the same year.
170 compared to 542.That's a military invasion by an established nation, though.
-
I think the problem is that we disagree on how similar Pence's actual agenda and the actual anti-LGBT discrimination laws being pushed today are to what would in practice be concentration camps for LGBT people.
I'm not equating Pence's anti-LGBT agenda to a law which would outright force people into conversion therapy even though he's a big believer in it. I'm pointing out that Pence has an anti-LGBT agenda, period, as he so clearly demonstrated in Indiana. An anti-LGBT agenda shared by many others which has indeed gained traction for every gain made by the LGBT community. Demon Rin pointed out a helpful list of examples and links earlier on. And that agenda doesn't need to be fully accomplished for bad things to happen. All you need is some "subtle" traction for real life affect and consequences. You see, you don't need the big knockout punch to push back on human rights.
Want to stop black people from voting but you can't outright ban them from the polls anymore? Well, just make it harder for them to vote by introducing voter ID laws and charging them to get that done. That way you're not really introducing a poll tax.
Want to ban abortions but you lost RoevWade? Well, introduce unnecessarily strict and nearly impossible standards for clinics to meet so that they have to be shut down making it harder to find a place for a legal abortion.
It's not so much the crazy that-shit-is-never-going-to-pass laws that leave people up at night . It's the underhanded things to worry about. Yeah, Pence probably wouldn't pass a law forcing people to undergo conversion therapy but he sure as hell would like to make a law forcing taxpayers fund the practice.
-
http://www.dailynewsbin.com/news/cnn-msnbc-fox-news-donald-trump-president-obama/26201/#comments
CNN, MSNBC, Fox News all cut off Donald Trump after just 5 minutes to cover President Obama instead
Similarly, a week ago they cover Clinton rally and ignore Trump.
http://www.politicususa.com/2016/09/21/time-2016-cnn-msnbc-fox-carry-clinton-rally-ignore-trump.htmlWhen even Fox isn't drinking the coolaid anymore…
The press is starting to treat Hillary Clinton like a person who may actually win the White House, and not just that other person to talk about when Donald Trump isn’t doing something.
Hopefully it means the overall coverage and approach towards Trump is changing and the media is getting serious. Stopped viewing Trump as a ratings pumping sideshow, and as "ack, someone who could actually be president."
Considering Trump isn't spending anything on ads, the media ignoring him for the next month would be the best thing possible... but they're still going to put up every insane thing he says and the talk shows will still cover it all. Sigh.