I imagine Doffy will reappear since the whole reason he wanted the Ope Ope no Mi/the great Tenryuubito secret was never revealed.
Wasn't the whole reason he wanted the Ope Ope no mi that he wanted someone to make him immortal?
Chapter 792: Kneeling Down
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@Sir:
Wasn't the whole reason he wanted the Ope Ope no mi that he wanted someone to make him immortal?
The reason he wanted the Ope Ope no Mi for himself was because he uncovered a secret of theirs and wanted to utilise its abilities to take advantage of the secret. Later, when Law acquired it he was even more gutted as the "ultimate devil fruit" was never meant to be eaten by Law as its ultimate ability is to grant someone immortality at the cost of the user's own life and he knew Law would never make that sacrifice for him but one of family/crew would have.
Year of Sanji, let's go!
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thanks man off to read
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The reason he wanted the Ope Ope no Mi for himself was because he uncovered a secret of theirs and wanted to utilise its abilities to take advantage of the secret. Later, when Law acquired it he was even more gutted as the "ultimate devil fruit" was never meant to be eaten by Law as its ultimate ability is to grant someone immortality at the cost of the user's own life and he knew Law would never make that sacrifice for him but one of family/crew would have.
I think he wanted to do the body switch, like law did to the crew on punk hazard, to infiltrate and steal the treasure…
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I think he wanted to do the body switch, like law did to the crew on punk hazard, to infiltrate and steal the treasure…
Ye, I was thinking that. I mean, instead of killing Law he would have him kill himself but getting the bonus of immortality as he could probably easily obtain the fruit once law dies.
I wonder if Doflamingo hates someone specifically and if he had immortality, he'd switch personalities with the person, lock the person up for eternity, as Doflamingo body has immortality.
That sounds interesting. Then Doflamingo would be in this persons position.
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I think they'll give Luffy Doflamingo's Shichibukai position. Law has to keep his position now, so it's the only way to make their alliance legal. It would be out of character for him to accept, but I think Law would convince him to take it and just drop it if it gets in the way. It could be part of Fujitora's plan. If a pirate that the Word Nobles and the Fleet Admiral hate gets pardoned, it might make them push to disband the Shichibukai. And it would create a contentious debate at the upcoming Reverie as all the royals who Luffy's helped (Vivi, Dalton, Neptune) try to defend him.
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Didn't he want it cause he wants to take down the celestial dragons but knew that it would take more than one lifetime to do it and so he needed immortality to have more time to take them down?
Also back to the Fuji letting them party. I think aokiji was more respected within the marines so he could get away with stuff while Fuji is still relatively new so he wouldn't get as much slack as Aokiji another possibility is that Fuji will 'try' to capture SH but then someone will delay him like Sabo or something.
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Before he becomes yesterdays news in a few days, I wanted to weigh in on Burgess’ performance this arc too. Another long, cathartic (for me) post ahead, but the short version is that I join Robz and others’ disappointment at Burgess’ handling (surprise surprise!).
[hide]
I have two main issues with the common sentiments that “Of course Burgess lost, he was facing Sabo who is X strong”, and “Burgess’ credibility comes by way of holding out and not getting instantly steamrolled by a fighter of Sabos strength”1: You can talk about apparent powerlevels all you want; while they can justify Burgess losing in-story, the point is that Burgess was placed in a scenario where he lost so badly because Oda decided he should be put to use that way. Oda could have just not done that, and placed Burgess in another scenario, or changed the variables so he performed better against Sabo. Because he’s the writer.
2: Its possible to write someone to failing their objectives, and still looking threatening or competent, but Oda never attempted that with Burgess. Ever since his introduction, Burgess never got a personal “win”, a high-moment to give him credibility, because everything he did was always offset by Sabo trumping him, thus making it “wins” for Sabo.
Elaborating on the latter: When I talk of Burgess getting “wins”, or moments of credibility, I’m not talking about reader-inferred, pseudo-feats of “Burgess survived a hit from X so he must be Y durable, that’s impressive”. I’m talking Burgess getting wins as framed deliberately, visually in the manga. Oda is a seasoned artist, and he knows how to draw a manga to get across an intended effect – which here was all about Sabo looking cool, and NOT Burgess looking credible, or even threatening. When Burgess is set ablaze and flying in a two page spread, while he’s screaming his head off in pain, Odas aim is not to make us think “wow! Good on you Burgess for surviving that!”, we’re supposed to think “Wow, Sabo is so cool!”.
It’s the same in the opening shot of chapter 786, where Sabo is drawn standing over Burgess in a position of clear dominance; nothing about the way its drawn suggests that Oda wants readers to fear or respect Burgess durability. Burgess follow-up attack is the infamous hakiless blow, which –importantly- only takes up a third of a page, versus Sabos subsequent two-page attack, with buildup and followup commentary about its awesomeness. Furthermore, regardless of how you think Sabo dodged it (automatically or deliberately), Burgess attack is negated in a way depicted as effortless. Not a big deal. Sabo just stands in the same spot, all unfazed and cool-like, reforms, and then blasts off Burgess, all cool-like.
Even when they allegedly “tied” in their clash in the coliseum, the manga still give the “win” to Sabo. Burgess is the one whos’ armor breaks, who has the annoyed expression during and after the hit, and Sabo is the one whose expression is unchanged and gets the cool quip.
And now, in this chapter Burgess is left battered, panting and beaten on the ground, while Sabo walks off in nonchalant, unhurt dominance- and no, the fact that he has a tiny smudge on his cheek does not negate him being presented as content and relaxed, with not even a bead of sweat to indicate physical exertion, in stark contrast to Burgess. Burgess dirty move never seems to be any sort of threat to Sabo, who once again gets to blast off Burgess and say something cool. None of these moments are designed to make Burgess look credible to the readers. The biggest “win” you can attribute to Burgess this whole arc is his introductory offscreen defeat of fighters never seen before or since. And even that only gives him credibility as far as us readers having to do he legwork of “well, if we assume that the fighters in his block were of X power level and he defeated them in Y time, and with Z ferocity causing the possibly fearsome fighters to be completely incapacitated for the rest of the arc, he does seem to be quite strong”.
I’m obviously not saying that Burgess should have just killed Sabo, killed Luffy, killed everyone and taken the Mera Mera and ended the manga then if he’s so great. Alternatives are possible, ranging from him not fighting Sabo, to landing actual hits on Sabo and having the latter seem like he’s excerting himself, or letting Sabo have his last-minutes rescues and his defense of Luffy, but Burgess sailing off with the Mera Mera because of trickery, blind luck (“something something FATE something”). Or maybe because Sabo were in a situation where he saved Luffy from Burgess at the cost of losing the Fruit, symbolism of letting Ace go, it’s the living bros’ who are important etc. There are tonnes of ways Burgess could have been shown off as credible, while obviously not succeeding in killing Luffy. Heck, just changing the depiction of him being hit by Sabo to looking more like he’s gritting his teeth, and tanking the damage, and framing him bouncing back to fight on as something ominous (Akainu style), rather than just him flying off and happening to survive, would go a long way, and make him seem scarier.
You might of course ask, why does Burgess need any buildup at all? Well, Burgess is obviously an antagonist, and I think 99% of the forum will agree that he will face off against a Straw Hat at some point. Now whether or not you think he’s going to be a final antagonist doesn’t change that he would benefit from being built up in advance to his eventual final defeat, right? Just like any other opponent. Buildup allows us readers to walk into a final confrontation already feeling that the opponent is a serious, credible threat because we’ve seen that firsthand, and it makes it more exciting to anticipate how the heroes will pull through. For “big picture” characters a big part of this buildup is done by reeling them in for “guest appearances” in other arcs, just as Burgess has been here. Mihawk is hardly in Baratie or Marineford, but he’s there long enough to be shown off as a competent, threatening force, same with any of the admirals. Doflamingos track record before Dressrosa was not getting beaten around by others.
This was Burgess, and indeed the BB pirates, first moment in the spotlight after the time skip, a chance to give a new first impression as the evilest new Yonko crew that has thrown the New World into chaos. This could have been a Mihawk at Baratie moment, which would also allow Burgess to create a personal beef with his future SH opponent. Like, he harasses Franky, and come the arcs end, Franky goes “that bastard! How dare he do that thing!! But he was strong…I need to be more super to take him on next time!” But that doesn’t happen.
Imagine if Van Augur appeared at the next island, and proceeded to do nothing but get tossed around in the most one-sided fashion by The New Warlord Character. Augur never interacts with Usopp, and his biggest claim to competence is “Not dying against that Warlord dude, who was really strong”. Then, when Usopp faces Augur later, they have no real preceding beef, and our preceding exposure to Augur have been almost entirely of him Failing.
First impressions are important, and our first impression of Yonko-commander Burgess is: “Wow, Burgess got beaten very soundly”. It doesn’t matter that his opponent had been trained by X and must have a power level of Y since he was as strong as Z more than a decade ago; at the end of the day, the end result just is: Burgess was only depicted losing, and losing in a way that doesn’t frame him as credible or threatening. And that’s the association that will pop into our heads when we see him next. The thought that “he’s probably gotten stronger by now” won’t make a Burgess reappearance feel threatening, when the first thing that comes to mind is him set ablaze and flying through the air, howling in pain.
And look, I know that the BB pirates have been an untraditionally cunning, shortcut-taking lot, gaining notoriety along with Luffy, being fallible and relying on luck, and I like them for that. But I don’t think the “they’ll get stronger later” excuse can apply anymore, because the only further level the BB pirates can go up, is to Pirate King itself. We’re not dealing with the unknown 0-bounty crew of two years ago, now it’s the evil new Yonko extrordinare BB pirates, who’s leader announced that it was now his age (in a big dramatic spread, too!) and who’s commander Burgess is widely known and feared. Its not like any point has been made that the BB pirates are somehow a "low tier" Yonko crew, and saying that we should just let Burgess get stronger at this point in the story feels like having Coby show up as an admiral, proceed to fail, get beaten and not get any personal accomplishments, and then saying “well, its Coby, he’ll be stronger next time”.
[/hide]Phew. That’s what happens when Daz finally takes some time off!
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@Daz:
And look, I know that the BB pirates have been an untraditionally cunning, shortcut-taking lot, gaining notoriety along with Luffy, being fallible and relying on luck, and I like them for that. But I don’t think the “they’ll get stronger later” excuse can apply anymore, because the only further level the BB pirates can go up, is to Pirate King itself. We’re not dealing with the unknown 0-bounty crew of two years ago, now it’s the evil new Yonko extrordinare BB pirates, who’s leader announced that it was now his age (in a big dramatic spread, too!) and who’s commander Burgess is widely known and feared. Its not like any point has been made that the BB pirates are somehow a "low tier" Yonko crew, and saying that we should just let Burgess get stronger at this point in the story feels like having Coby show up as an admiral, proceed to fail, get beaten and not get any personal accomplishments, and then saying “well, its Coby, he’ll be stronger next time”.
Phew. That’s what happens when Daz finally takes some time off!
There is bunch of stuff i find wrong with that post but i only going reply to this part .
What you are saying here make no sense .
Just because he is in a Yonko crew don't mean he can get stronger .
The whole point of this arc with getting rid of smiles so Kaido crew can't get any stronger .BB was able to becomes a Yonko because of using 2 DF and he knew WB territories .
Jozu was widely know and fear and Kuzan beat him rather easy .
Before we even saw burgess we knew the BB pirates we trying to get stronger by stealing DFs.
Burgess was out match vs sabo and he will get power up by a DF , why even talk about it if you not going to show it in some way .EDIT this manga has years and many arcs left and there is tons of time to build up characters .
Also since i forget saying that he has to be a credible threat without even knowing which SH he going face is also a problem . -
Maybe Fujitoa will ask the returning king for permission to arrest them with them being in his kingdom and all. Of course fully aware that Riku will refuse.
There's a "Blind Justice" pun in here somewhere, and I think that's what he's eventually going to go with.
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Daz vs Hayato .
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Someone help me out here. The naval officers covered Doflamingo's face didn't they? Please tell me I'm wrong.
Folks who read One Piece… Just better people. ¯\(ツ)/¯
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@Daz:
Before he becomes yesterdays news in a few days, I wanted to weigh in on Burgess’ performance this arc too. Another long, cathartic (for me) post ahead, but the short version is that I join Robz and others’ disappointment at Burgess’ handling (surprise surprise!).
[hide]
I have two main issues with the common sentiments that “Of course Burgess lost, he was facing Sabo who is X strong”, and “Burgess’ credibility comes by way of holding out and not getting instantly steamrolled by a fighter of Sabos strength”1: You can talk about apparent powerlevels all you want; while they can justify Burgess losing in-story, the point is that Burgess was placed in a scenario where he lost so badly because Oda decided he should be put to use that way. Oda could have just not done that, and placed Burgess in another scenario, or changed the variables so he performed better against Sabo. Because he’s the writer.
2: Its possible to write someone to failing their objectives, and still looking threatening or competent, but Oda never attempted that with Burgess. Ever since his introduction, Burgess never got a personal “win”, a high-moment to give him credibility, because everything he did was always offset by Sabo trumping him, thus making it “wins” for Sabo.
Elaborating on the latter: When I talk of Burgess getting “wins”, or moments of credibility, I’m not talking about reader-inferred, pseudo-feats of “Burgess survived a hit from X so he must be Y durable, that’s impressive”. I’m talking Burgess getting wins as framed deliberately, visually in the manga. Oda is a seasoned artist, and he knows how to draw a manga to get across an intended effect – which here was all about Sabo looking cool, and NOT Burgess looking credible, or even threatening. When Burgess is set ablaze and flying in a two page spread, while he’s screaming his head off in pain, Odas aim is not to make us think “wow! Good on you Burgess for surviving that!”, we’re supposed to think “Wow, Sabo is so cool!”.
It’s the same in the opening shot of chapter 786, where Sabo is drawn standing over Burgess in a position of clear dominance; nothing about the way its drawn suggests that Oda wants readers to fear or respect Burgess durability. Burgess follow-up attack is the infamous hakiless blow, which –importantly- only takes up a third of a page, versus Sabos subsequent two-page attack, with buildup and followup commentary about its awesomeness. Furthermore, regardless of how you think Sabo dodged it (automatically or deliberately), Burgess attack is negated in a way depicted as effortless. Not a big deal. Sabo just stands in the same spot, all unfazed and cool-like, reforms, and then blasts off Burgess, all cool-like.
Even when they allegedly “tied” in their clash in the coliseum, the manga still give the “win” to Sabo. Burgess is the one whos’ armor breaks, who has the annoyed expression during and after the hit, and Sabo is the one whose expression is unchanged and gets the cool quip.
And now, in this chapter Burgess is left battered, panting and beaten on the ground, while Sabo walks off in nonchalant, unhurt dominance- and no, the fact that he has a tiny smudge on his cheek does not negate him being presented as content and relaxed, with not even a bead of sweat to indicate physical exertion, in stark contrast to Burgess. Burgess dirty move never seems to be any sort of threat to Sabo, who once again gets to blast off Burgess and say something cool. None of these moments are designed to make Burgess look credible to the readers. The biggest “win” you can attribute to Burgess this whole arc is his introductory offscreen defeat of fighters never seen before or since. And even that only gives him credibility as far as us readers having to do he legwork of “well, if we assume that the fighters in his block were of X power level and he defeated them in Y time, and with Z ferocity causing the possibly fearsome fighters to be completely incapacitated for the rest of the arc, he does seem to be quite strong”.
I’m obviously not saying that Burgess should have just killed Sabo, killed Luffy, killed everyone and taken the Mera Mera and ended the manga then if he’s so great. Alternatives are possible, ranging from him not fighting Sabo, to landing actual hits on Sabo and having the latter seem like he’s excerting himself, or letting Sabo have his last-minutes rescues and his defense of Luffy, but Burgess sailing off with the Mera Mera because of trickery, blind luck (“something something FATE something”). Or maybe because Sabo were in a situation where he saved Luffy from Burgess at the cost of losing the Fruit, symbolism of letting Ace go, it’s the living bros’ who are important etc. There are tonnes of ways Burgess could have been shown off as credible, while obviously not succeeding in killing Luffy. Heck, just changing the depiction of him being hit by Sabo to looking more like he’s gritting his teeth, and tanking the damage, and framing him bouncing back to fight on as something ominous (Akainu style), rather than just him flying off and happening to survive, would go a long way, and make him seem scarier.
You might of course ask, why does Burgess need any buildup at all? Well, Burgess is obviously an antagonist, and I think 99% of the forum will agree that he will face off against a Straw Hat at some point. Now whether or not you think he’s going to be a final antagonist doesn’t change that he would benefit from being built up in advance to his eventual final defeat, right? Just like any other opponent. Buildup allows us readers to walk into a final confrontation already feeling that the opponent is a serious, credible threat because we’ve seen that firsthand, and it makes it more exciting to anticipate how the heroes will pull through. For “big picture” characters a big part of this buildup is done by reeling them in for “guest appearances” in other arcs, just as Burgess has been here. Mihawk is hardly in Baratie or Marineford, but he’s there long enough to be shown off as a competent, threatening force, same with any of the admirals. Doflamingos track record before Dressrosa was not getting beaten around by others.
This was Burgess, and indeed the BB pirates, first moment in the spotlight after the time skip, a chance to give a new first impression as the evilest new Yonko crew that has thrown the New World into chaos. This could have been a Mihawk at Baratie moment, which would also allow Burgess to create a personal beef with his future SH opponent. Like, he harasses Franky, and come the arcs end, Franky goes “that bastard! How dare he do that thing!! But he was strong…I need to be more super to take him on next time!” But that doesn’t happen.
Imagine if Van Augur appeared at the next island, and proceeded to do nothing but get tossed around in the most one-sided fashion by The New Warlord Character. Augur never interacts with Usopp, and his biggest claim to competence is “Not dying against that Warlord dude, who was really strong”. Then, when Usopp faces Augur later, they have no real preceding beef, and our preceding exposure to Augur have been almost entirely of him Failing.
First impressions are important, and our first impression of Yonko-commander Burgess is: “Wow, Burgess got beaten very soundly”. It doesn’t matter that his opponent had been trained by X and must have a power level of Y since he was as strong as Z more than a decade ago; at the end of the day, the end result just is: Burgess was only depicted losing, and losing in a way that doesn’t frame him as credible or threatening. And that’s the association that will pop into our heads when we see him next. The thought that “he’s probably gotten stronger by now” won’t make a Burgess reappearance feel threatening, when the first thing that comes to mind is him set ablaze and flying through the air, howling in pain.
And look, I know that the BB pirates have been an untraditionally cunning, shortcut-taking lot, gaining notoriety along with Luffy, being fallible and relying on luck, and I like them for that. But I don’t think the “they’ll get stronger later” excuse can apply anymore, because the only further level the BB pirates can go up, is to Pirate King itself. We’re not dealing with the unknown 0-bounty crew of two years ago, now it’s the evil new Yonko extrordinare BB pirates, who’s leader announced that it was now his age (in a big dramatic spread, too!) and who’s commander Burgess is widely known and feared. Its not like any point has been made that the BB pirates are somehow a "low tier" Yonko crew, and saying that we should just let Burgess get stronger at this point in the story feels like having Coby show up as an admiral, proceed to fail, get beaten and not get any personal accomplishments, and then saying “well, its Coby, he’ll be stronger next time”.
[/hide]Phew. That’s what happens when Daz finally takes some time off!
Nice post, but I must disagree with the part about not there being room for Burgess becoming stronger because he can still obtain a Devil Fruit. In fact, one could easily see this a setup for him to upgrade, probably through a shortcut. As an Emperor crew, the Blackbeard Pirates should have the resources for that.
After all, look at how much Sabo improved with the Mera Mera. Before it, he was having trouble with Burgess and had to win through trickery. Now he can just curbstomp him with no problem.
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I think Fujitora would be pushing it a little too far if he allowed 2 of most wanted pirates to have a party even after they took down Doflamingo. He has no more excuses to stand on the side.
Besides, capturing both Dofla and Law would only help his cause.
I'd have to suspend my disbelief a little too hard to buy that party.
And piss the Dressrosians off by arresting their hero? And that right after apologizing?
Yeah, no.
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Burgess could be redeemed…Be interesting he stumbles across a sad fruit, eats it and goes for round two with a nice Zoan power up before the revolutionaries leave. But no time for that... I wonder what's next for old burgess though was just embarrassed bringing shame upon blackbeard. No way he just goes out like that...right??
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About burgess. I don't get how getting destroyed by someone of luffys level affects the future.
Burgess will probably fight Franky, you are telling me luffy or Sabo couldn't thrash Franky like that if they wanted to? How does that ruin Franky fighting burgess?
The bb pirates will probably get more development later on or in an arc for them. The same as all the sh opponents in every prior arc. Heck bb being involved in killing ace is probably enough to make all the sh want to fight them without extra motivation
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With Burgess vs. Sabo, the way I see it Is that Sabo was being portrayed as being fairly equal to Fujitora in their scuffle, (now it could be argued that Fuji may not have been putting his full efforts into this matchup, but anyway). This being said I would expect nothing less than for him to walk through JB like nothing. I don't feel that It was ever implied that Burgess could compete on an admiral's level, while Sabo did go 1-on-1 with Fuji after completely destroying Bastille. The last time the BB crew encountered an admiral (and yes it was pre-TS) the entire crew ran away from Sakazuki. Overall with the Mera Mera no mi Sabo proved he could hold his own with an admiral, Burgess is an underhanded trickster like his Captain (who I feel would face a similar fate without his DF) and while it may slow down the BB pirates' hype train, I personally am more interested in Burgess' future now as he is pretty much guaranteed to receive a significant power-up (from DF or otherwise) and I am now interested to see how the so-called Champion uses this crushing defeat in order to motivate him towards that power-up. BB may be the "most evil" of the Yonko but at this point I still feel he is also the weakest of them. He and his entire crew will continue to grow significantly with hopefully more references to how they continue to grow in a way which is similar to the SHs. The motivations of the BB crew and the actions they take to reach their goals are what will serve to make Teach the antithesis of Luffy as a pirate.
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Someone help me out here. The naval officers covered Doflamingo's face didn't they? Please tell me I'm wrong.
They probably did some first aid(bandages and stuff) otherwise he may die before they take him a step further; Issho called for 3 ships of medics after all. But who knows? I don't think there's a twist, but if there's one it could be interesting or plain annoying(a la beating on the dead horse and stretching things further in an unfavorable direction).
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luffy and doffy might end up having the same common enemy (kaido) so they might end up fighting on the same side for a while.
It's not even a problem of common enemy. Law (who is going to be present too) and Doula understandably hate each other to death, and Doula is too unpredictable.
Law himself didn't care about dying as long as Doula got killed by Kaidou in the end. No way he's going to accept fighting with him.
Not to mention that it's really late for any sort of redemption in Doula's case.
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I'm ok with Burgess appearing in the manga as he did.
Blackbeard crew is intended to look weak but extremely dangerous.
It's not a crew of powerhouses, because their strength is in deception.
Blackbeard despite the hackness of his fruit got hit loads of times, and he fled loads of times.
Whitebeard's crew faced the headquarter of the Marine, Shanks and crew scared the shit out of admirals, and I think that Kaidou would not flee in front of Akainu like Blackbeard did.
No way Blackbeard could be where he is currently just with his strength alone.
He could never get Whitebeard's fruit without taking advantage of a big setup.
To me it seems that Oda wants us to think that the BB crew doesn't deserve to be Yonkou level power wise, but they are Yonkou because they are a threat.
I see the plot going in a direction where BB will face someone (Shanks? Strawhats?) as the total underdog and pull out a big win just with deception.
The more Blackbeard crew loses clearly the more they become the underdog Oda wants to show us.
Next time you see Burgess fighting…dunno...Lucky Roo for example...we reader instantly bet on Lucky, then Burgess will win with a trick and we'll get how dangerous he is.
That's my opinion. -
luffy and doffy might end up having the same common enemy (kaido) so they might end up fighting on the same side for a while.
I don't think Doflamingo is even going to bother with Kaido, the most we will get, if lucky, is a bit of insight.
Doflamingo, the way i see it won't be fighting until further down the story line. I'm waiting for Doflamingos "return to the holy land". If it happens of course.. -
It's not an assumption. An island was confirmed to have two Warlords and one of them had just resigned. You really think not sending an Admiral there immediately would be something smart to do?
First i said an admiral can be send. Second if an admiral isn't send it wouldn't have surprised me as it striked me that the marines would have missed taking dressrosa seriously if kuzan hadn't asked smoker to inform akainu to send an admiral there. If akainu was so aware of doffys activities and the urgence of the events then why would Oda bother to insert kuzans brief appearance?
Fuji can make ships float. Travelling is not a problem for him. Also, Marine Admirals tend to stay at Marineford when not on missions, so it's not like he was near.
Also, the report had arrived a day prior. The Marines had plenty of time to do something about it.
Fair enough fuji would have made it.
That has nothing to do with my argument.
In fact, Aokiji knowing all that means that the top brass of the Marines were all aware of Doula's activities. You can't compare the top Marines of Marineford with the rejects of G-5.
Include smoker and tashigi. We don't know how kuzan learned about doffys activities. Remember that sugar used to turn secret agents or marines into toys so they should be really clueless about what he does. Maybe it was intuition¿
But Kuzan had it and was directly responsible for fujis presence in dressrosa otherwise his appearance and small talk with smoker would have been "meaningless". We cam therefore deduce that the marines would have probably missed sending an admiral there if kuzan wasn't there.He needed someone to take the credit for Doula's defeat, or else his plan would not have come to fruition.
Had he not met Luffy, he probably wouldn't have devised this plan.
Makes sense.
Your "alternative" scenarios are not better. They bring a ton of problems that were already previously mentioned. Problems that you just ignore.
I'm ok with that. One of the reasons i discuss it here is to read what you guys think of it. So it's work and progress.
Don't make me repeat what I've been saying for several posts already. I already said why the bowing would not happen. He needed the insight of what was happening inside the cage to formulate a plan.
You're right about the insight. And learning about the toys etc. Though may i add that regardless of the kingdom a king using the birdcage against his folks will always be a mass murderer? So he is guilty of abusing his position as soon as he use that scary thing.
Before Dressrosa, Fuji didn't know what was Luffy's nature, or whether Doula was behaving himself. He didn't know about the toys either, or that Riku was innocent, or why Doula had put a Birdcage around the island. All those things were learned in Dressrosa and influenced his plan. Had he been late, Luffy and the Straw Hats would've been arrested by now.
Ok i'm down with you about what the marines learned during their.presence in dressrosa and why that was useful to fuji and made him devise his plan. What i'm not ok with is him deciding to push the cage instead of keeping an eye on luffy and doffy. He should have been ready to strike as soon as luffy looses to doffys holy threads. That was irresponsible. Many would have died if luffy lost to doffy and fuji haf to first find doffy amd eliminate him. You can argue that he was required to push the cage otherwise they wouldn't having been able to slow it down significantly in order to buy time for luffy but frankly it wouldn't have hurt to make the birdcage a bit less overpowerfull.
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@Daz:
Before he becomes yesterdays news in a few days, I wanted to weigh in on Burgess’ performance this arc too. Another long, cathartic (for me) post ahead, but the short version is that I join Robz and others’ disappointment at Burgess’ handling (surprise surprise!).
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I have two main issues with the common sentiments that “Of course Burgess lost, he was facing Sabo who is X strong”, and “Burgess’ credibility comes by way of holding out and not getting instantly steamrolled by a fighter of Sabos strength”1: You can talk about apparent powerlevels all you want; while they can justify Burgess losing in-story, the point is that Burgess was placed in a scenario where he lost so badly because Oda decided he should be put to use that way. Oda could have just not done that, and placed Burgess in another scenario, or changed the variables so he performed better against Sabo. Because he’s the writer.
2: Its possible to write someone to failing their objectives, and still looking threatening or competent, but Oda never attempted that with Burgess. Ever since his introduction, Burgess never got a personal “win”, a high-moment to give him credibility, because everything he did was always offset by Sabo trumping him, thus making it “wins” for Sabo.
Elaborating on the latter: When I talk of Burgess getting “wins”, or moments of credibility, I’m not talking about reader-inferred, pseudo-feats of “Burgess survived a hit from X so he must be Y durable, that’s impressive”. I’m talking Burgess getting wins as framed deliberately, visually in the manga. Oda is a seasoned artist, and he knows how to draw a manga to get across an intended effect – which here was all about Sabo looking cool, and NOT Burgess looking credible, or even threatening. When Burgess is set ablaze and flying in a two page spread, while he’s screaming his head off in pain, Odas aim is not to make us think “wow! Good on you Burgess for surviving that!”, we’re supposed to think “Wow, Sabo is so cool!”.
It’s the same in the opening shot of chapter 786, where Sabo is drawn standing over Burgess in a position of clear dominance; nothing about the way its drawn suggests that Oda wants readers to fear or respect Burgess durability. Burgess follow-up attack is the infamous hakiless blow, which –importantly- only takes up a third of a page, versus Sabos subsequent two-page attack, with buildup and followup commentary about its awesomeness. Furthermore, regardless of how you think Sabo dodged it (automatically or deliberately), Burgess attack is negated in a way depicted as effortless. Not a big deal. Sabo just stands in the same spot, all unfazed and cool-like, reforms, and then blasts off Burgess, all cool-like.
Even when they allegedly “tied” in their clash in the coliseum, the manga still give the “win” to Sabo. Burgess is the one whos’ armor breaks, who has the annoyed expression during and after the hit, and Sabo is the one whose expression is unchanged and gets the cool quip.
And now, in this chapter Burgess is left battered, panting and beaten on the ground, while Sabo walks off in nonchalant, unhurt dominance- and no, the fact that he has a tiny smudge on his cheek does not negate him being presented as content and relaxed, with not even a bead of sweat to indicate physical exertion, in stark contrast to Burgess. Burgess dirty move never seems to be any sort of threat to Sabo, who once again gets to blast off Burgess and say something cool. None of these moments are designed to make Burgess look credible to the readers. The biggest “win” you can attribute to Burgess this whole arc is his introductory offscreen defeat of fighters never seen before or since. And even that only gives him credibility as far as us readers having to do he legwork of “well, if we assume that the fighters in his block were of X power level and he defeated them in Y time, and with Z ferocity causing the possibly fearsome fighters to be completely incapacitated for the rest of the arc, he does seem to be quite strong”.
I’m obviously not saying that Burgess should have just killed Sabo, killed Luffy, killed everyone and taken the Mera Mera and ended the manga then if he’s so great. Alternatives are possible, ranging from him not fighting Sabo, to landing actual hits on Sabo and having the latter seem like he’s excerting himself, or letting Sabo have his last-minutes rescues and his defense of Luffy, but Burgess sailing off with the Mera Mera because of trickery, blind luck (“something something FATE something”). Or maybe because Sabo were in a situation where he saved Luffy from Burgess at the cost of losing the Fruit, symbolism of letting Ace go, it’s the living bros’ who are important etc. There are tonnes of ways Burgess could have been shown off as credible, while obviously not succeeding in killing Luffy. Heck, just changing the depiction of him being hit by Sabo to looking more like he’s gritting his teeth, and tanking the damage, and framing him bouncing back to fight on as something ominous (Akainu style), rather than just him flying off and happening to survive, would go a long way, and make him seem scarier.
You might of course ask, why does Burgess need any buildup at all? Well, Burgess is obviously an antagonist, and I think 99% of the forum will agree that he will face off against a Straw Hat at some point. Now whether or not you think he’s going to be a final antagonist doesn’t change that he would benefit from being built up in advance to his eventual final defeat, right? Just like any other opponent. Buildup allows us readers to walk into a final confrontation already feeling that the opponent is a serious, credible threat because we’ve seen that firsthand, and it makes it more exciting to anticipate how the heroes will pull through. For “big picture” characters a big part of this buildup is done by reeling them in for “guest appearances” in other arcs, just as Burgess has been here. Mihawk is hardly in Baratie or Marineford, but he’s there long enough to be shown off as a competent, threatening force, same with any of the admirals. Doflamingos track record before Dressrosa was not getting beaten around by others.
This was Burgess, and indeed the BB pirates, first moment in the spotlight after the time skip, a chance to give a new first impression as the evilest new Yonko crew that has thrown the New World into chaos. This could have been a Mihawk at Baratie moment, which would also allow Burgess to create a personal beef with his future SH opponent. Like, he harasses Franky, and come the arcs end, Franky goes “that bastard! How dare he do that thing!! But he was strong…I need to be more super to take him on next time!” But that doesn’t happen.
Imagine if Van Augur appeared at the next island, and proceeded to do nothing but get tossed around in the most one-sided fashion by The New Warlord Character. Augur never interacts with Usopp, and his biggest claim to competence is “Not dying against that Warlord dude, who was really strong”. Then, when Usopp faces Augur later, they have no real preceding beef, and our preceding exposure to Augur have been almost entirely of him Failing.
First impressions are important, and our first impression of Yonko-commander Burgess is: “Wow, Burgess got beaten very soundly”. It doesn’t matter that his opponent had been trained by X and must have a power level of Y since he was as strong as Z more than a decade ago; at the end of the day, the end result just is: Burgess was only depicted losing, and losing in a way that doesn’t frame him as credible or threatening. And that’s the association that will pop into our heads when we see him next. The thought that “he’s probably gotten stronger by now” won’t make a Burgess reappearance feel threatening, when the first thing that comes to mind is him set ablaze and flying through the air, howling in pain.
And look, I know that the BB pirates have been an untraditionally cunning, shortcut-taking lot, gaining notoriety along with Luffy, being fallible and relying on luck, and I like them for that. But I don’t think the “they’ll get stronger later” excuse can apply anymore, because the only further level the BB pirates can go up, is to Pirate King itself. We’re not dealing with the unknown 0-bounty crew of two years ago, now it’s the evil new Yonko extrordinare BB pirates, who’s leader announced that it was now his age (in a big dramatic spread, too!) and who’s commander Burgess is widely known and feared. Its not like any point has been made that the BB pirates are somehow a "low tier" Yonko crew, and saying that we should just let Burgess get stronger at this point in the story feels like having Coby show up as an admiral, proceed to fail, get beaten and not get any personal accomplishments, and then saying “well, its Coby, he’ll be stronger next time”.
[/hide]Phew. That’s what happens when Daz finally takes some time off!
Blackbeard's crew have been jobbing left and right and made to look like fools since the beginning. Remember Teach rolling around in pain twice because of Ace? Remember Magellan and how he wiped them all out in one attack? Remember how pathetic he looked in front of Whitebeard where they could only win by dogpiling a severely wounded old man? They're not your traditional nigh invincible antagonists. The manga made it very clear they're only where they are through their sheer ruthless non-heroic behavior and pure blind luck. The scary thing about them is their persistence and how they always, despite all odds, seem to come out on top even though there is nothing special or divine about them. I mean look at their introduction chapters. Blackbeard whining about pies. Doc Q killing people for no reason. Burgess shouting on the roof top about being a champion for no reason (Van Auger is the only one who looked impressive which is why it would be kinda lame if he got jobbed around too much since he's one of the more cool type characters in the crew). They're just a bunch of rogues who have lucked out into making it big. And maybe that's why they're such appealing villains because more so than any other crew they most fit the traditional mold of "pirate". So I have no problem personally with Burgess made to look like a clown, they're all a bunch of clowns until they surprise you in their ruthless deviousness. Besides, he'll get his at the end of the day. Granted it'll be a while till we can get to that payoff.
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@TLC:
Blackbeard's crew have been jobbing left and right and made to look like fools since the beginning. Remember Teach rolling around in pain twice because of Ace? Remember Magellan and how he wiped them all out in one attack? Remember how pathetic he looked in front of Whitebeard where they could only win by dogpiling a severely wounded old man? They're not your traditional nigh invincible antagonists. The manga made it very clear they're only where they are through their sheer ruthless non-heroic behavior and pure blind luck. The scary thing about them is their persistence and how they always, despite all odds, seem to come out on top even though there is nothing special or divine about them. They're just a bunch of rogues who have lucked out into making it big. And maybe that's why they're such appealing villains because more so than any other crew they most fit the traditional mold of "pirate". So I have no problem personally with Burgess made to look like a clown, they're all a bunch of clowns until they surprise you in their ruthless deviousness. Besides, he'll get his at the end of the day. Granted it'll be a while till we can get to that payoff.
Yes, I know thats how the BB pirates were portrayed earlier…but now, post skip, I think its time to shift gears slightly. They can still be sort of bumbling and lucky, as before, while getting some onscreen notoriety and credibility under their belts.
And look, I know that the BB pirates have been an untraditionally cunning, shortcut-taking lot, gaining notoriety along with Luffy, being fallible and relying on luck, and I like them for that. But I don’t think the “they’ll get stronger later” excuse can apply anymore, because the only further level the BB pirates can go up, is to Pirate King itself. We’re not dealing with the unknown 0-bounty crew of two years ago, now it’s the evil new Yonko extrordinare BB pirates, who’s leader announced that it was now his age (in a big dramatic spread, too!) and who’s commander Burgess is widely known and feared. Its not like any point has been made that the BB pirates are somehow a "low tier" Yonko crew, and saying that we should just let Burgess get stronger at this point in the story feels like having Coby show up as an admiral, proceed to fail, get beaten and not get any personal accomplishments, and then saying “well, its Coby, he’ll be stronger next time”. It is possible that Burgess can get wheeled out again before his final defeat, but with 9 other BB crewmembers to go through, its easily possible that he wont either. Besides, this was an ample opportunity to showcase him, and dragging him out again to forge animosity with the SH crew, this time for reals, would feel kinda like an afterthought.
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There is bunch of stuff i find wrong with that post but i only going reply to this part .
What you are saying here make no sense .
Just because he is in a Yonko crew don't mean he can get stronger .
The whole point of this arc with getting rid of smiles so Kaido crew can't get any stronger .BB was able to becomes a Yonko because of using 2 DF and he knew WB territories .
Jozu was widely know and fear and Kuzan beat him rather easy .
Before we even saw burgess we knew the BB pirates we trying to get stronger by stealing DFs.Yes, obviously you can always get stronger by getting abilities and such, even if you're a Yonko crew. I'm not going to get bogged down in powerlevels of Yonko commanders related to admirals or whatever, but the point is that being a Yonko commander is still a hell of a strength-label to throw at someone. And BB is labeled as a yonko on the same terms as the others; theres never been any mention that he's the "weakest Yonko" or the "Rookie yonko who only barely manages to get the title". When the BB pirates a spoken of fearfully in hushed tones, their performance now should reflect that.
Burgess was out match vs sabo and he will get power up by a DF , why even talk about it if you not going to show it in some way .
The scenario could have been written differently and…sorry, I am not really sure what you're saying here.
EDIT this manga has years and many arcs left and there is tons of time to build up characters .
Also since i forget saying that he has to be a credible threat without even knowing which SH he going face is also a problem .It really does seem that a major disadvantage for Burgess is that he doesn't have a clear-cut SH opponent. If this had been Van Augur getting the same treatment, the reaction would've been much worse.
Anyway, the main gist of my post was that Burgess could've failed his objective and still looking credible, and that he'd deserved to get some personal triumphs to balance out his failures.
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I hate to be that guy but, is there a chapter this week?
Some long-term predictions: Vegapunk with Paw-Paw fruit for Nakama!!! Kaidou is gonna be killed by Blackbeard and get his strongest Zoan DF!!!
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Nice post, but I must disagree with the part about not there being room for Burgess becoming stronger because he can still obtain a Devil Fruit. In fact, one could easily see this a setup for him to upgrade, probably through a shortcut. As an Emperor crew, the Blackbeard Pirates should have the resources for that.
After all, look at how much Sabo improved with the Mera Mera. Before it, he was having trouble with Burgess and had to win through trickery. Now he can just curbstomp him with no problem.
I agree that Burgess with an eventual devil fruit will propably fare way better, and look cool as heck to boot. I'm looking forward to it, but I just wish he hadn't gotten kicked around so badly beforehand. I think a lot of his handling-issues this arc has to do with him being on the island throughout the entire thing, instead of having a smaller Mihawk/Kuma level appearance.
I think what I'm looking the most forward to now is just chillaxing with the Coliseum characters in the wind-down phase of the arc.
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I hate to be that guy but, is there a chapter this week?
Yea dude. Ill put you out of your misery.
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I also agree with the sentiment that Burgess had a very disappointing showing that damages his credibility for later. It's an interesting point by Daz, that in terms of rank Burgess has nowhere to go. Of course he could get stronger, but there's no categorical indicator to reflect that. Marines have different ranks that people like Smoker and Coby have risen through to reflect their growing power, but there's no title above Yonko commander that Burgess could obtain. The pirate measuring stick of bounties is also useless here since we have no baseline for him with which to numerically compare Burgess's future strength. This poor performance damages both Burgess's own reputation and the credibility of his presumably similarly strong crewmates.
One possibility is that we're expected to have a mediocre impression of Burgess, only to be impressed later when he absolutely wrecks house with a powerful new Devil Fruit. We'll hypothetically think that if Burgess has become that much more competent, his crew mates have probably become much more terrifying too.
The other option is that Burgess is actually part of Blackbeard's Evil Weakling Trio and will be Nami's first ever male one-on-one. Nami vs. Burgess, folks, you heard it here first!
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Is there a chance the marines are going to arrest a string clone of Doffy instead? We know sea stone doesn't affect the substances paramecia's produce as seen by Mr 3 wax keys.
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Someone help me out here. The naval officers covered Doflamingo's face didn't they? Please tell me I'm wrong.
Looks like only the mouth to me, so he doesn't speak… and spoil the secret of celestial dragons?
And about that, I wonder what the treasure of CD could be. DD as underworld king can get all he wants, money,weapons, good DFs. It must be something very special for him to want it.
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Didn't he want it cause he wants to take down the celestial dragons but knew that it would take more than one lifetime to do it and so he needed immortality to have more time to take them down?
Also back to the Fuji letting them party. I think aokiji was more respected within the marines so he could get away with stuff while Fuji is still relatively new so he wouldn't get as much slack as Aokiji another possibility is that Fuji will 'try' to capture SH but then someone will delay him like Sabo or something.
Actually that excuse has already been established as the excuse he will use, I remember because it actually popped again in the anime when the two call for a truce.
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I don't think that's something that really needs explaining. The victims just become big puppets that Doffy can control. He uses the strings attached to their body to control their movements, like an actual puppet.
Why he didn't try to control Luffy before G4 was revealed? he would've won the fight.
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I wish people would be at least half as mad when Sanji got defeated in seconds by Doflamingo or how Vergo cracked his legs. And the reason I say this is because Sanji has about the same rank Burgess has and they could be opponents in the BB vs SH fight.
Oda din't protect Sanji at all. And it's not like Sanji will eat a DF like Burgess from now on. The big power jump he made it in the 2 years.
At least if Parasite would remain a broken move that would no be explained and leave it like that, but Sanji only looks worse when Luffy break free of parasite like it was nothing.
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Is there a chance the marines are going to arrest a string clone of Doffy instead? We know sea stone doesn't affect the substances paramecia's produce as seen by Mr 3 wax keys.
Interesting stuff but his glasses were smashed, that to me says he's the real thing I don't think Doffy would ever make a clone without those glasses attached.
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And piss the Dressrosians off by arresting their hero? And that right after apologizing?
Yeah, no.
Huh?
He just allowed Dressrosa to get to the brink of destruction just to prove a point to WG and the world. Those Dressrosans sure are dangerous, though. Fuji should be extra careful, lmao.
He doesn't even need to arrest them on Dressrosa. He can just wait off coast, while more and more battleships arrive.
Even if he goes away, it doesn't mean HQ will share his view.
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They're probably about to leave the island, there's no way in hell Oda can create a party in this island and expect the audience to be happy about it.
Why do I feel like it might happen…
I have the same feeling.
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@uniaka:
I wish people would be at least half as mad when Sanji got defeated in seconds by Doflamingo or how Vergo cracked his legs. And tghe reason I say Sanji is because he has about the same rank Burgess has and they could be opponents in the BB vs SH fight.
Oda din't protect Sanji at all. And it's not like Sanji will eat a DF like Burgess from now on. The big power jump he made it in the 2 years.
Most people can buy that Doffy is leagues above Sanji, as with Vergo he didn't know what to expect but could have maybe defeated him if it stretched out further. People find it hard to accept Sabo fodderizing Burgess even though his brother pre-timeskip could have done the same to the entire Blackbeard crew at the time (except BB himself). Just like Strawhats there will always be some in the crew that are weaker than others and the same way Strawhats have reached this far by depending on their captain, Blackbeards crew have depended on him even more, they'd be nothing or nowhere without him, just because he's a Yonkou now doesn’t mean his entire crew got a magical power boost due to his status, status can invoke fear and give the people with said status a sense of delusion as to how strong they are but it doesn't mean they are as strong as they think they've become. Not to mention if Burgess even landed a single hit on Sabo you'll never hear the end of it from fan boys about how they're equal or how Burgess is stronger. How do I know this? Well a few weeks ago people were claiming Burgess was Sabo's equal with little to no proof to back up their claims, if he had landed a single hit JB would have been Pirate King level in their eyes, that's just how it is.
Year of Sanji, let's go!
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Huh?
He just allowed Dressrosa to get to the brink of destruction just to prove a point to WG and the world. Those Dressrosans sure are dangerous, though. Fuji should be extra careful, lmao.
The problem is the cameras running now and broadcasting everything to the world. Everyone knows luffy and law are dressrosas heroes so unless fuji wants mass revolt then :
He doesn't even need to arrest them on Dressrosa. He can just wait off coast, while more and more battleships arrive.
He'll have to arrest luffy and law quietly without trouble and witnesses. But they won't be alone. Collosseum fighters will help them get to zou. Fuji best go on with his current plan.
Fuji will get away with it with akainu scolding or magma fisting him. -
Most people can buy that Doffy is leagues above Sanji, as with Vergo he didn't know what to expect but could have maybe defeated him if it stretched out further. People find it hard to accept Sabo fodderizing Burgess even though his brother pre-timeskip could have done the same to the entire Blackbeard crew at the time (except BB himself). Just like Strawhats there will always be some in the crew that are weaker than others and the same way Strawhats have reached this far by depending on their captain, Blackbeards crew have depended on him even more, they'd be nothing or nowhere without him, just because he's a Yonkou now doesn’t mean his entire crew got a magical power boost due to his status, status can invoke fear and give the people with said status a sense of delusion as to how strong they are but it doesn't mean they are as strong as they think they've become. Not to mention if Burgess even landed a single hit on Sabo you'll never hear the end of it from fan boys about how they're equal or how Burgess is stronger. How do I know this? Well a few weeks ago people were claiming Burgess was Sabo's equal with little to no proof to back up their claims, if he had landed a single hit JB would have been Pirate King level in their eyes, that's just how it is.
I just can't buy it that DD is leagues above Sanji, he is part of same monster trio as luffy who defeated him. Unlike other ranks, monster trio is based on power. DD is at best around Jozu in power, Sanji has to be stronger then that at the end, and it's too late for him to look very bad again't guys like that.
Heck, Sanji is also the only guy that looked bad again't vice admirals post ts. And the only other role vice admirals have at this point is hype tool for others. And no way would Sanji win that fight with 1 leg, vergo was good.
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Doflamingo needed law plus luffy to defeat him. And even then it was tough for them to take hint down. He is leagues above sanji. He csn proficiently use haki he is incredibly fast and has awakened his df. Sanji has no chance.
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Why he didn't try to control Luffy before G4 was revealed? he would've won the fight.
How ?
Luffy could have just gone into gear 4 the same way .TLG , FFVIIR and Shenmue 3 2015 the E3 of dreams .
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Doflamingo needed law plus luffy to defeat him. And even then it was tough for them to take hint down. He is leagues above sanji. He csn proficiently use haki he is incredibly fast and has awakened his df. Sanji has no chance.
Sanji will likely be better then Doflamingo at the end. It's not like Sanji can grow much stronger from now till the end. The 2 years represented the big power jump.
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@uniaka:
I just can't buy it that DD is leagues above Sanji, he is part of same monster trio as luffy who defeated him. Unlike other ranks, monster trio is based on power. DD is at best around Jozu in power, Sanji has to be stronger then that at the end, and it's too late for him to look very bad again't guys like that.
I don't see it that way. The "monster trio" label is about the huge gap in strength that exists between the trio and the rest of the crew. It does not, however, imply that all 3 should stand on equal ground nor does it entitle them to any relative "strength level" compared to anyone outside the Straw Hats.
Besides, Sanji's greatest strength, imho, was always his ability to show up where he's the least expected and thus thwart the enemy's plans. Little Garden, the casino underground in Alabasta, the train in Water Seven, meeting Viola in Dressrosa… I would much rather see him pursue this streak of being the right man in the right place than be all about power and curbstomb such and such.
In fact, that's one of the great traits in One Piece. Any character can get their time under the spotlight and play a key part in forwarding the plot regardless of "power levels". Makes the series more enjoyable than many generic shonen.
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@uniaka:
Sanji will likely be better then Doflamingo at the end. It's not like Sanji can grow much stronger from now till the end. The 2 years represented the big power jump.
He's 21 years old, he will grow much stronger by EoS, Doffy is in his prime (in his 40s).
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In fact, that's one of the great traits in One Piece. Any character can get their time under the spotlight and play a key part in forwarding the plot regardless of "power levels". Makes the series more enjoyable than many generic shonen.
Agreed with everything you wrote but especially that part.
Year of Sanji, let's go!
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He's 21 years old, he will grow much stronger by EoS, Doffy is in his prime (in his 40s).
Yes, but Sanji and co are special. Unless there is a time skip, Luffy will be pirate king in less then a year and Sanji will be high too.
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@uniaka:
Sanji will likely be better then Doflamingo at the end. It's not like Sanji can grow much stronger from now till the end. The 2 years represented the big power jump.
Being as strong as doffy atthe end of Op is already huge for someone like Sanji. Don't you agree?
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@uniaka:
I just can't buy it that DD is leagues above Sanji, he is part of same monster trio as luffy who defeated him. Unlike other ranks, monster trio is based on power. DD is at best around Jozu in power, Sanji has to be stronger then that at the end, and it's too late for him to look very bad again't guys like that.
Heck, Sanji is also the only guy that looked bad again't vice admirals post ts. And the only other role vice admirals have at this point is hype tool for others. And no way would Sanji win that fight with 1 leg, vergo was good.
Can I just say that Doflamingo did to Jozu the exact same thing he did to Sanji? He immobilized him with the exact same move during the war. And that was not Parasite, it's something like a spider web. How can people still not make the distinction between Parasite and the immobilization? (this last part was not directed at you)
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How ?
Luffy could have just gone into gear 4 the same way .g4 was revealed towards the end of the fight, and at no point before that did DD try to control luffy.
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Being as strong as doffy atthe end of Op is already huge for someone like Sanji. Don't you agree?
Likely Sanji will defeat 3rd guys in yonkou crews( Burgess, the guy from Kaidou's crew, guy from Big mom's crew), so I think people like that are on par with DD or just a bit weaker.
So I don't think that's huge, the least Sanji would be in terms of power at the end is DD, so it's just normal.
Sure, there also my prediction that M3 will defeated the 3 admirals, but let's just leave that aside, since I don't have any proof.
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Doflamingo needed bellamy, trebol, himself, clones to tire out law and luffy to put up a fight.
About burgess complaining, its the ones who thought he was sabo's equal doing the complaining. It would have been lame having anyone but blackbeard from that crew actually giving a fight to sabo or any general or admiral or yonko out there. General in Revolutionary army that is.
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Being as strong as doffy atthe end of Op is already huge for someone like Sanji. Don't you agree?
That would be enough to fight an admiral for a short period of time. He doesn't have to win, just stall them without getting stomped. @G_soildier:
Doflamingo needed bellamy, trebol, himself, clones to tire out law and luffy to put up a fight. About burgess complaining, its the ones who thought he was sabo's equal doing the complaining. It would have been lame having anyone but blackbeard from that crew actually giving a fight to sabo or any general or admiral or yonko out there. General in Revolutionary army that is.
It would have been a good fight if Sabo didn't have the fire fruit.
