Arlong Park Forums

Just want to focus on this one point but i don't think it needs fixing .

I disagree.

As you said you self you can understand his reasoning , it might be stupid , you might not agree with etc ect but you can understand it.

Uderstanding(or thinking I understand) the logic used by the author for his character doesn't make the character good one. I understand a Fujitora as much as I understnad a Sasuke or Edward(FMA). It has nothing to do do with wether or not the character was well written or poorly handled.

We live in a world where stuff like this happen more than once don't see a problem with it happening in fiction .

I'm not sure what you are talking about but I really don't think everything that happen in real life should translate to fiction.

I would also like to add we know nothing about Fujitora past and he has only been a marines for 2 years .
What happen in his past can change\influence a person perspective , wants , needs and actions .

So basically, Oda can fix it? I don't expect him to do in a convincing manner.

sabinis

@Nycprodigy:

It's not like Luffy will be able to beat someone of Doflamingo's caliber with just fists alone.

Tell that to his granddad

andy

Uderstanding(or thinking I understand) the logic used by the author for his character doesn't make the character good one. I understand a Fujitora as much as I understnad a Sasuke or Edward(FMA). It has nothing to do do with wether or not the character was well written or poorly handled.

A character being a written or handled poorly is subjective to begin with .
The point is Oda already explain Fujitora actions and what he wants if you don't agree with it or how he does it that is another debate .

I'm not sure what you are talking about but I really don't think everything that happen in real life should translate to fiction.

I am talking how everything people do is not logical .
So is not any different if some of the characters in OP behave this way since we have seen it before and happens in real life.

So basically, Oda can fix it? I don't expect him to do in a convincing manner.

Guess your idea of fixing is different than mine .

Darth

@choperman:

so someone who studies logic can never be wrong in a logical debate…...... so people who study logic never argue right?

No, someone who studies logic can and probably will at one point or another be wrong in a logical debate. Now, if we had two people who were perfectly logical, and the matter they were discussing was entirely objective, it is possible, in theory, that they would never argue. Or that they could never reach a consensus.

Nevertheless, don't mistake my dismissal of what I basicaly consider as trolls as some statement of my own omniscience. What I seek are proper arguments.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

I don't know if it is tedious or hilarious, but here we are, a bunch of internet people trying to make you understand that you are not working your "logic" as well as you think you are - against all odds, if I may add. I think you only focus on the logically-perfect construction of your arguments, without taking onto account that its foundations, your "a priori"s, are, just like everyone's, based on subjectivity (IIRC, you yourself said that "even" art was subjective… well, I didn't like that "even", which implied doubt, as if trying to say that there is/could be some reliable and objective order in art... just like you like it in your "truth" founded in logic), and thus, they are just arbitrary.

See, the basic mistake you are making here is to think that I actually think that way. I do not consider the construction of my arguments to be perfectly logical. They aren't. Mostly because of two reasons: I rush my posts up, so I don't have the time to check them to that degree, and because I'm mostly self-taught when it comes to english the deeper linguistic intricacies, something necessary for the construction of perfectly logical arguments, are lost on me.

And the other point… every critisism and every praise is rooted in the subjectivity of one's perception. I do not dispute that. That doesn't mean that you can't construct logicaly correct counter-arguments based on that subjectivity. I am criticising the way people respond to my posts, not asserting my own inherent rightness.

I fully concede to the fact that I might be wrong. However, if you expect me to believe that on the basis of volume of people screaming stupid things at me, you've got it all wrong.

What I seek are arguments of worth. And if people want me to acknowledge them as such, there is only one way.

Make.

Better.

Arguments.

So, my prescription, and, sincerely, I am trying my best (and failing) to not sounding like a condescending ass, a bit of good 'ol Wittgenstein writings, as its the best remedy to give one insight to the boundaries set by our "a priori"s, found mainly in our languages.

But… but I like Wittgenstein.

Granted, haven't read him in years, because my studies went in a different direction, but I have fond memories of him. Nowadays, It's mostly Kant and Ricoeur for me.

But hey, what good would it make to tell you all this if I don't prove how wrong your arguments can be? Well, I simply don't want to enter in your little 'logic' game, but this one should be easy. You want Doflamingo to be a real psycopath in order to make him a good villain? Well, I've seen him laughing like a maniac, he has world-domination/destruction plans, he is constantly enjoying chaos surrounding him (not only when he is the one creating it, but when in a freaking war), being absolutely unable to emphasize with people outside his ultra-limited caring circle (which can still be reduced to 0, depending to his reaction to the top executive's failures), which also happens to allow him to be a dickm being a pupeteer of peoples' emotions.
If that is still not enough Joker for you, you can add to the list the fact that he murdered his freaking father and brother, he brainwashed children to become child soldiers ready to die for him, he sent who-knows-how-many children to a certain death known as Caesar, he has perpetrated mass-murderer attacks at least three times on-screen and has sustained for years a huge black market of not only weaponry but also slaves. Now, I know, this may still not be enough… right? That is why you want him to peel someone else's skin... in a manga where even freaking heroic deaths are avoided!!!! But, because Oda loves you, he even went the extra mile and found a way to give Doflamingo a background to explain his dehumanitzation (tell me you didn't enjoy watching him emptying that bottle of red wine, I double dare you) to avoid a new blank monster like Hody, WHILE conceding even more irrational violence in his character... like... you know... enjoying cuting off limbs? Repeatedly?

No, you misunderstand. My issue is with the characterization being incosistent.

However, I do concede that the characterization of Doflamingo himself has been well done, at least as far as his psychothic side is concerned. It is an almost textbook example of how to do it… if not for said incosistencies.

Unless Law really is dead. Then I will send my personal letter of apology to Oda. I will even have it translated to Japanese.

See how far creating a good argument can get you? You people should try it more.

You are not annoyed because he is a badly narrated villain who fails at defending his empire (in my standards, Sugar haxness + Manshelly haxness + kairouseki building + CP0 + colosseum distraction + Mera Mera magnet to Luffy = much more trumpcards than Crocodile ever had, even when counting Plan B(omb)). Which, to be honest, is plain and simply obvious from day one: from the chliché of the heavy calculating pupeteer that misscalculates the protagonist's unpredictable behaviour (explicited by Robin, as Luffy = best trumpcard), to the fact that this is a shonen with a repetitive structure ending with victories. But, for easying Doflamingo's blame further, some really unpredictable behaviours have been added to the arc, like f*cking powerhouses suchs as your friend the admiral, Sabo, Burgess, Hakuba…

I find adding Burgess into that group hillarious, since he actually done nothing to hamper Doflamingo.

Also, in theory, yes, Doflamingo's plan is better than Crocodile's. However, Oda never made Crocodile fail as badly as he did Doflamingo. And the cost of victories has been higher in Alabasta then in Dressrosa.

What I'm saying is: While in theory Doflamingo presents a greater challenge, in reality, he has proven to be less of it. Compare the relative difficulty of Zoro vs Mr. 1 and Zoro vs Pica. Both deal with basicaly same difficulty: An opponent Zoro can't cut, while he is freely attacked by him. One pushed him to the brink of death, the second failed to create a scratch.

So… which one, in your opinion, has been more threatning? Which one, for the lack of a better word, failed more?

You are annoyed because this character is being defeated by "pacifists" like Riku, by Usopp's share of luck and by plain Tontatta and the citizens' stupidity/naivity, which are arbitrary reasons and, at the same time, not only happen to be some of the most recurring themes of this manga (peace, luck&fate, innocence), but also happen to generate dislike to the marines (you know, that organitzation that fights alongside Shichibukais for the sake of a "superior order", which, for some strange coincidence, also happens to include the oppression and murders in Dressrosa, and has been for years presented as the house of evil genocides?). And this annoyance makes you critize almost everything you can relate to it, despite not always having 'facts' or 'evidence' in your side, and all while claiming to be presenting objective logic. I call bullshit. And I call hipocresy, which, oddly enough, I also happen to heavily hate.

Moderation in all things. Also, is there a reason I can't find a recurring theme annoying? Cause I find the recurring theme of luck in One Piece annoying. It's one of the few things I've had a problem with since the day one. I always found it more or less annoying, depending on it's volume in particular arc. And the overall quality of an arc.

The motive of luck being necessary for succes has been a second only to one other arc: Marineford. And I have been vocal in hating that as well. I know it's a recurring theme, like characters almost never dying outside of the flashbacks, but I don't see how "It's always been there" is a valid counter argument. To me, in my subjective opinion, it just means it has always been there to annoy me.

And please, spare me the propaganda. If anything, Oda tries to portray at least some parts of the marines and WG as flawed, but well intentioned. That's why Gorosei are not chuckling demonicaly when ordering to destroy Ohara, but are shown to be regretful of it.

That they fight alongside the Shichibukai is true, but you will also note that Marines have shown nothing except disdain for them, and would probably like nothing more than to wipe them out. One of them is actually actively planning to do so.

The oppression and murders in Dressrosa have not been sanctioned by the goverment. Two separate high ranking marines officers wanted to go after Doflamingo the moment they've had some concrete proof. And they've been stopped because Fujitora values wishes of the populace higher then the law or common sense, the idiot. And so the marines have promptly set out to save as many lives as possible. Those fiends!

And yes, Oda made up idiotic reasoning for Fujitora, because he Luffy needs to be a hero. That is also because this is Shonen Manga. But you know, I also know some Shonen Manga that managed to avoid that. This has been Oda's decision. It is a fair game. And I dislike it. Understanding why it was done doesn't make me dislike it any less. Sacrificing a tertiary characters characterization for the sake of your protagonist annoys me. It is more annoying, because I like Fujitora. And the fact he's been sidelined because of such stupid reason is not fine for me.

sabinis

Maybe Law faked getting his legs cut off by using his own power at moment of Doflamingos attack?

And he wants Doflamingo to gets into Mongologue to buy some time?

Razh

@Aokiji'sMissingLeg:

Why did Burgess need to "hyped up" more in the tournament? So that when Sabo won the fruit without actually beating anyone in a fight, it would seem even more anticlimactic? I think the issue here is Oda had written such a focus on the tournament with Luffy fighting, with numerous pages on B and C block, that you could assume that the final fight, where Sabo and Burgess face off, was going to be more than a skirmish, when in reality the tournament winded up not even taking half of this arc up.

Now that we know the tournament was made up more so to introduce all the new gladiators and their powers this arc, and have them be allies of Luffy, having Burgess need to be hyped up even more is unnecessary. There's absolutely no way Sabo is going to lose to Burgess; there's not going to be a repeat of the Ace situation where Luffy gets a brother captured and defeated by Blackbeard and crew and has to go save him.

Oh I'm not talking about Burgess needing more hype. Just that, in retrospect, it's hard to buy that block A is the only block without relevant characters. You know, devil is in the details.

@Whackadoodle:

I mean, we saw the aftermath, and there were gruesomely injured people all over the place being carried on stretchers, and screaming about how Burgess was going to kill them. It's not really much of a stretch to conclude that maybe block A was all just too injured to participate in the rest of the plot for this arc. And even if they're up and about, we also haven't seen Damask, Jean Ango, Mummy, Meadows, Rolling Logan, the fighting lion, Acilia, Spartan, Hera, or Gambia since the competition ended, either.

Lol, love the pun, intentional or not.

I don't buy that injury thing. In the manga where Bellamy breaks Abdullah and Jeet's necks and then later they take down Dofla's clone. Or Hakuba does a little slice and dice, but all the fighters from his block are in fighting shape after that.

Either way, there's nothing stating everyone from block A was so hurt they couldn't move or remember that they are in any way relevant to the world of OP.

Not trying to "stretch" this discussion so much, as you say.
Just trying to point out the disparity between block A and other blocks which affects the general impression of the arc for me, if only a little.

Ordinary

@TsuXna:

What a bunch of unless posts about logic and stuff tbh

Zoro's so badass. I think he might be "stronger" than Luffy. You know, in fights and power…......

sabinis

@Razh:

Oh I'm not talking about Burgess needing more hype. Just that, in retrospect, it's hard to buy that block A is the only block without relevant characters. You know, devil is in the details.

Lol, love the pun, intentional or not.

I don't buy that injury thing. In the manga where Bellamy breaks Abdullah and Jeet's necks and then later they take down Dofla's clone. Or Hakuba does a little slice and dice, but all the fighters from his block are in fighting shape after that.

Either way, there's nothing stating everyone from block A was so hurt they couldn't move or remember that they are in any way relevant to the world of OP.

Not trying to "stretch" this discussion so much, as you say.
Just trying to point out the disparity between block A and other blocks which affects the general impression of the arc for me, if only a little.

I would say that arc didnt ended yet.

If anything no people from block A playing any role was result of Burgess pretty much slaughtering them. Look at how some of named fighers went offscreen just after they got beaten up- Suleiman or Blue Gilly for example. Or Gambia that is another long lost character. They were most likely weakened from fights in their blocks(especially Blue Gilly who took directly into the face Kings Punch) and after getting some heavy hits they gotten out of comission. Damage from fighting played some role for old Chinjao who could not recover from fight with Luffy as he said so I guess some other fighters did get beaten up to point they could not continue to be part of action.

People that fought Burgess were implied to get really badly messed up with their screams and comments if I remember correctly.
http://mangafox.me/manga/one_piece/v71/c706/6.html

One or two guys from block A getting named, showing up at end of this arc would somehow repair that impression of yours I think.

Also Fujitora commented on quite a few notable names in block A here
http://mangafox.me/manga/one_piece/v71/c705/6.html

Razh

I would say that arc didnt ended yet.

If anything no people from block A playing any role was result of Burgess pretty much slaughtering them. Look at how some of named fighers went offscreen just after they got beaten up- Suleiman or Blue Gilly for example. Or Gambia that is another long lost character. They were most likely weakened from fights in their blocks(especially Blue Gilly who took directly into the face Kings Punch) and after getting some heavy hits they gotten out of comission. Damage from fighting played some role for old Chinjao who could not recover from fight with Luffy as he said so I guess some other fighters did get beaten up to point they could not continue to be part of action.

People that fought Burgess were implied to get really badly messed up with their screams and comments if I remember correctly.
http://mangafox.me/manga/one_piece/v71/c706/6.html

One or two guys from block A getting named, showing up at end of this arc would somehow repair that impression of yours I think.

Also Fujitora commented on quite a few notable names in block A here
http://mangafox.me/manga/one_piece/v71/c705/6.html

Well yeah, it's possible Oda still expands upon that a little, but I don't really expect it. As I said, it's just a minor thing, but that's what we do here. Discuss about silly things. :happy:

Darth

I would say that arc didnt ended yet.

Of course you would.

If anything no people from block A playing any role was result of Burgess pretty much slaughtering them. Look at how some of named fighers went offscreen just after they got beaten up- Suleiman or Blue Gilly for example. Or Gambia that is another long lost character. They were most likely weakened from fights in their blocks(especially Blue Gilly who took directly into the face Kings Punch) and after getting some heavy hits they gotten out of comission. Damage from fighting played some role for old Chinjao who could not recover from fight with Luffy as he said so I guess some other fighters did get beaten up to point they could not continue to be part of action.

Suleiman and Blue Gilly weren't off-screened. And Gambia didn't participate in the fights in the coloseum so… he is not a substantial evidence.

sabinis

Of course you would.

Suleiman and Blue Gilly weren't off-screened. And Gambia didn't participate in the fights in the coloseum so… he is not a substantial evidence.

Didnt replied to my PM- no quoting me !

Gambia gotten messed up by rookie Vice Admiral - point is that heavily KOed people were removed out of action. Beside Chinjao who is special case in many ways- legendary pirate, has family with him, stuff etc.

Beside that Its too small thing to start up arguing with YOU of all people

uniaka ikuzakas

@Ordinary:

Zoro's so badass. I think he might be "stronger" than Luffy. You know, in fights and power…......

He had battles with strong people around the world only twice and got defeated both times easy. Kuma and Mihawk made short work of zoro.

sabinis

@uniaka:

He had battles with strong people around the world only twice and got defeated both times easy. Kuma and Mihawk made short work of zoro.

Ordinarys comment was sarcasm/ irony.

Darth

Gambia gotten messed up by rookie Vice Admiral - point is that heavily KOed people were removed out of action. Beside Chinjao who is special case in many ways- legendary pirate, has family with him, stuff etc.

There is no corelation between how heavily they were KOed and removal from further action.

desa

A character being a written or handled poorly is subjective to begin with .
The point is Oda already explain Fujitora actions and what he wants if you don't agree with it or how he does it that is another debate .

Pretty sure he didn't and that all of this are my suppositions.

By your logic any character in fiction is fine.

I am talking how everything people do is not logical .
So is not any different if some of the characters in OP behave this way since we have seen it before and happens in real life.

With that kind of thinking a character has no reason at all to be consistent or anything.

Guess your idea of fixing is different than mine .

I guess it is.

ARTEMlS

Also, in theory, yes, Doflamingo's plan is better than Crocodile's.

Not saying that Croc's plan didn't have glaring flaws as well, but how exactly is Doffy's plan better?

Whackadoodle

@Razh:

I don't buy that injury thing. In the manga where Bellamy breaks Abdullah and Jeet's necks and then later they take down Dofla's clone. Or Hakuba does a little slice and dice, but all the fighters from his block are in fighting shape after that.

I know that the severity of injuries in One Piece seem to have little or no relation to how serious those same injuries would be in the real world, but we have examples in the series of someone being out of things for substantial periods of time due to injuries, for example, Sanji after the avalanche on Drum: he didn't regain consciousness until after Luffy had hauled both of them and Nami up the huge vertical mountain and they were taken care of.

And again, we still haven't seen Gambia, which suggests that either some fighters are off doing something else, or some people haven't recovered from their injuries (or possibly, both).

Either way, there's nothing stating everyone from block A was so hurt they couldn't move or remember that they are in any way relevant to the world of OP.

Someone else linked the page with the guy screaming about Burgess killing him, which is all we've seen of anyone other than Burgess from block A. No, we haven't had an explicit explanation, but there are plausible explanations for what is, ultimately, a minor detail - one which might yet still be addressed, but which simply might not be important/relevant enough for Oda to feel a need to ever address specifically.

If Oda had specifically brought back every other Colosseum fighter to participate in this part of the arc, I'd probably agree with your perception, but as it is, the failure to mention anyone else from block A seems more like Jesus Burgess hype, to me.

Ruin

Doffy's plan hinged on someone who hates him not betraying him and a small child not getting knocked out
it had some flaws

Darth

@Bartholemew:

Not saying that Croc's plan didn't have glaring flaws as well, but how exactly is Doffy's plan better?

In theory. :ninja:

More seriously though, combination of Mansherry, Sugar and Birdcage should allow for systematic elimination of every enemy and then removing them from everybodys memories, thus ensuring no rescue could be mounted. After ending it, nobody would even remember there ever was Dressrosa.

Again, in theory. Practise has very little to do with theory, I tend to find.

Sereques

@Bartholemew:

Not saying that Croc's plan didn't have glaring flaws as well, but how exactly is Doffy's plan better?

The plan ran well for ten good years and Mingo's business was very successful in that period. If the SHs had not ally with the dwarves, even Sabo won't be able to do anything. Hack would have disappeared from their memory and they would have returned without a useful report.

andy

Pretty sure he didn't and that all of this are my suppositions.

By your logic any character in fiction is fine.

Pretty sure he did .
Some of it was explain in chapter 735 which by the way is call Fujitora objective.
I would like to ask what problems you have with Fujitora that Oda did not say anything about ?
And yes having all sort of characters in fiction is what makes something interesting to read just a matter of how it is done.

With that kind of thinking a character has no reason at all to be consistent or anything.

Once it's done good i have no problem with it and Fujitora has been consistent .

In theory.

More seriously though, combination of Mansherry, Sugar and Birdcage should allow for systematic elimination of every enemy and then removing them from everybodys memories, thus ensuring no rescue could be mounted. After ending it, nobody would even remember there ever was Dressrosa.

Again, in theory. Practise has very little to do with theory, I tend to find.

Don planned and even his clean up plan depends to much on sugar who funny enough got knock out twice in the arc .
Another mistake he made was putting the fire DF up so to many strong guys are there .
He should have just told luffy about it to lure him there.

Darth

Once it's done good i have no problem with it and Fujitora has been consistent .

What part of Fujitora has been consistent, exactly? He has given three separate reasons for not going after flamingo and at the same time bets on Luffy and sicks his three thousands marines after him, something that has been conveniently forgotten.

Fujitora has been bullshit since chapter 745.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

Don planned and even his clean up plan depends to much on sugar who funny enough got knock out twice in the arc .

By a gag.

You know, I don't think anybody could have planned for their subordinate losing conciousness and becoming pernamently traumatized by a silly face.

Jazo

By a gag.

You know, I don't think anybody could have planned for their subordinate losing conciousness and becoming pernamently traumatized by a silly face.

Does it matter if it was from a gag or not? Point is, she got knocked out, which shouldn't happen. With so many other things going on, she should've been protected better.

uniaka ikuzakas

A plan can't be good if you need 3 of the most broken fruits inOP for it to work. I'm sure many villains out there would manage something great with such fruits.

Sure, I'll give it to DD that his actions made him king of underworld and maybe that's how he got the fruits, the first two.

andy

What part of Fujitora has been consistent, exactly? He has given three separate reasons for not going after flamingo and at the same time bets on Luffy and sicks his three thousands marines after him, something that has been conveniently forgotten.

Fujitora has been bullshit since chapter 745.

Read chapter 735 again.
Fujitora said he would use the marines so the damage to citizens would be at a minimum if the SH go after Don which is what he has done .
As for your next points the reasons are in the manga but you are going say they stupid or don't make sense so lets not go back there.

By a gag.

You know, I don't think anybody could have planned for their subordinate losing conciousness and becoming pernamently traumatized by a silly face.

I won't call Ussop awakening Haki and doing one of the most impressive sniper display we have seen in the manga a gag.
Even if Don could not plan for what happen to her, she getting knocked out again is a big mistake on his part .

Darth

Does it matter if it was from a gag or not? Point is, she got knocked out, which shouldn't happen. With so many other things going on, she should've been protected better.

16 characters of how?

Medical Orbit

Imagine someone who hasn't seen or read One Piece in years looking at the chapter title. They'd probably think it's the final battle in the series.

PhoenixBoosh

@Medical:

Imagine someone who hasn't seen or read One Piece in years looking at the chapter title. They'd probably think it's the final battle in the series.

Also last chapter they would think Zoro was against Pikachu.

Jazo

16 characters of how?

You are asking how she should've been protected better?

Darth

You are asking how she should've been protected better?

Yes. I'm actually really curious how do you see it.

Ruin

not letting her roam around might be one
like keeping her in a fortified bedroom or something

Darth

@Ruin:

not letting her roam around might be one
like keeping her in a fortified bedroom or something

He was already doing that, if the underground fortress is any indication.

Jazo

Yes. I'm actually really curious how do you see it.

Sugar was fragile, with no fighting potential, and was being protected by a just slightly more capable guy. And if an army of dwarves can go unnoticed through the area, there aren't enough people patrolling. She also seemed pretty easy to knock out, and if it had been someone more capable than Usopp or the dwarves, or if Robin hadn't screwed up, they wouldn't even have needed the "gag" to do the job.

Ruin

honestly Robin could have just like
Gigantesco Mano punched her in the face

Darth

Sugar was fragile, with no fighting potential, and was being protected by a just slightly more capable guy. And if an army of dwarves can go unnoticed through the area, there aren't enough people patrolling. She also seemed pretty easy to knock out, and if it had been someone more capable than Usopp or the dwarves, or if Robin hadn't screwed up, they wouldn't even have needed the "gag" to do the job.

You will notice she had instantly knocked out several dwarves, known for their speed and strength, there is no indication of her being fragile, and Trebol is slightly more then capable.

Every person who tried to attack the duo has been knock out and defeated.

So I ask again: How do you defend against chance, luck, gag? How do you win, if you have author against you?

See, that is why I hate the theme of luck.

Ruin

if you don't like luck being a factor then I really don't know why you're reading One Piece at all

andy

You will notice she had instantly knocked out several dwarves, known for their speed and strength, there is no indication of her being fragile, and Trebol is slightly more then capable.

Every person who tried to attack the duo has been knock out and defeated.

So I ask again: How do you defend against chance, luck, gag? How do you win, if you have author against you?

See, that is why I hate the theme of luck.

Truth is the first time was luck , the second time was skill because if Oda did not have his no kill rule she would gotten bullet to the head .
Then again ussop don't use guns so i guess that is more of a factor than anything else.
After she got knock the first time Don should have told her to keep in one place while picking off people with parasite and making her turn them into a toy army .
Or he could have told her to meet up with him and trebol .

Darth

@Ruin:

if you don't like luck being a factor then I really don't know why you're reading One Piece at all

Because it is possible to enjoy the series while not enjoying parts of it, that's a.

And because many arcs have said themes of luck in much smaller volume then Dressrosa does.

Tangaroa

Sugar was fragile, with no fighting potential, and was being protected by a just slightly more capable guy. And if an army of dwarves can go unnoticed through the area, there aren't enough people patrolling. She also seemed pretty easy to knock out, and if it had been someone more capable than Usopp or the dwarves, or if Robin hadn't screwed up, they wouldn't even have needed the "gag" to do the job.

Sugar did have some moves, as we saw when the dwarves physically attacked her. She knew enough to fight on a basic level and given the histories of the other children in Dofla's 'care' she likely wasn't a complete stranger to violence.
The thing is with her never physically growing up she wotluld have remained being treated as a favoured child which left her somewhat spoiled and she just wasn't as mentally tough when it came down to it. The unexpected knocked her out, even if it was a gag.

maxterdexter

Does it matter if it was from a gag or not? Point is, she got knocked out, which shouldn't happen. With so many other things going on, she should've been protected better.

The fact that Mingo's kingdom didn't fall for 10 years, depending on sugar to not knock herself out, and it worked, kind of render this point anoyingly overdiscussed.

She was protected enough, that a frontal attack failed catastrophicaly, and got knocked out because was caught out of guard, after battle.

Seriously, there's probably an unmarked grave in some place of the north blue filled with the bodies of the boys and girls who were candidates for the hobby fruit, and only someone agile, calminded and nimble enough to not fail the deathtrap was allowed to eat it.

Jazo

You will notice she had instantly knocked out several dwarves, known for their speed and strength, there is no indication of her being fragile, and Trebol is slightly more then capable.

Every person who tried to attack the duo has been knock out and defeated.

So I ask again: How do you defend against chance, luck, gag? How do you win, if you have author against you?

See, that is why I hate the theme of luck.

I am not denying that it was luck or that you cannot defend against it. But I think you overrate their speed etc. They showed their faces before they attacked - not exactly hard to defend against foes charging at you - especially if you only have to touch to defeat them. And Trebol wasn't even there, when they attacked at first.

What if Usopp had also attacked her with the dwarves? They let an idiot protect her, and no one else, and let how many go unnoticed through the area. Additionally Robin knocks people out all the time, when she fights, why not just do it here, instead of waiting for a couple of dwarves to put a grape in her mouth? So yeah, they may have had the author against them, and sure it was lucky she got knocked out, but it was still not a good way of defending the most important part of his plan.

Tangaroa

@maxterdexter:

The fact that Mingo's kingdom didn't fall for 10 years, depending on sugar to not knock herself out, and it worked, kind of render this point anoyingly overdiscussed.

She was protected enough, that a frontal attack failed catastrophicaly, and got knocked out because was caught out of guard, after battle.

Seriously, there's probably an unmarked grave in some place of the north blue filled with the bodies of the boys and girls who were candidates for the hobby fruit, and only someone agile, calminded and nimble enough to not fail the deathtrap was allowed to eat it.

Excellent points. Though Dofla would have wanted a certain amount of pliability because of that whole 'die for me' thing.

andy

Still looking back at it Oda could just gotten Robin to beat sugar but he had robin hold her in a way where she got touch .
Robin could have just snap here neck or back like she normally does but i guess she wanted to stick to the plan which was stupid and she let her guard down .
So if anything Oda nerf Robin so Ussop can get the spotlight and we get GOD Ussop .

Vectorkov

Additionally Robin knocks people out all the time, when she fights, why not just do it here, instead of waiting for a couple of dwarves to put a grape in her mouth?

True, Robin could have stealthily snapped her neck from a distance… but Oda isn't going to show a Straw Hat murdering/brutalizing someone that looks like a small child. Robin was only there because Oda decided she would be the Straw Hat that got turned into a toy, because who else besides Luffy could get toyified at a distance like that.

Jazo

@Tangaroa:

Sugar did have some moves, as we saw when the dwarves physically attacked her. She knew enough to fight on a basic level and given the histories of the other children in Dofla's 'care' she likely wasn't a complete stranger to violence.

Yes but how hard is it to defend against frontal attacks, when you barely have to touch them? She has lived for a long time, so I think that much is to be expected.

@Tangaroa:

The thing is with her never physically growing up she wotluld have remained being treated as a favoured child which left her somewhat spoiled and she just wasn't as mentally tough when it came down to it. The unexpected knocked her out, even if it was a gag.

I agree with this.

@maxterdexter:

The fact that Mingo's kingdom didn't fall for 10 years, depending on sugar to not knock herself out, and it worked, kind of render this point anoyingly overdiscussed.

She was protected enough, that a frontal attack failed catastrophicaly, and got knocked out because was caught out of guard, after battle.

And who exacly tried to do anything about the situation? Correct me if i'm wrong, but i don't remember anyone knowing about sugar the past 10 years. My point was just, that with everything else going on, she should've been better protected.

And IMO a frontal attack from bunch of naive dwarves and Usopp, who just watched the whole thing, isn't exactly a good frontal attack.

@Vectorkov:

True, Robin could have stealthily snapped her neck from a distance… but Oda isn't going to show a Straw Hat murdering/brutalizing someone that looks like a small child. Robin was only there because Oda decided she would be the Straw Hat that got turned into a toy, because who else besides Luffy could get toyified at a distance like that.

I agree, Robin was the best for the situation and yet got removed from the picture so easily.

Vectorkov