@S.C.:
That one baffles me. Ireland was right there for him.
He's not quite as pugnaciously drunk as they are though.
Notions That Don't Deserve Their Own Threads
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@S.C.:
That one baffles me. Ireland was right there for him.
Nami stereotype wise also seems like an American though.
Jimbei meanwhile is a second Japanese stereotype pile lol.Usopp could plausibly be African if he was from North Africa I guess? Looks wise??
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He's not quite as pugnaciously drunk as they are though.
We're talking about Nami, and she's got drinking skills to her credit.
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I am now imagining some alternate American-made One Piece where Robin is a corrupt alcoholic communist with a beard.
Aren't Mediterranean people a tad shorter?
Robin is tall and that's pretty Russian.
Americans, Canadians, and western Europeans in general also tend to be really tall.
Doesn't mean that Robin's Basque.
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Usopp legit looks like he could pass as some kind of Pacific islander.
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Aren't Mediterranean people a tad shorter?
That depends where abouts.
Doesn't really seem like it. Though yes, Cypriots are lol. Lots of that just depends on diet anyway.
Used to be that Americans, Australians, and Brits were giants next to other parts of Europe. Allied troops during the Boxer rebellion.
L-R: UK, US, Australia, India, Germany, France, Austria-Hungary, Italy, Japan.
And of course everyone's favorite example. North and South Koreans today lol.Just looking at the average height map, the richer European side is taller on average than the poorer African side. I would expect that when North Africa reaches levels places like Spain and Italy are at while adapting some similar diet they would catch up or close. But they might just not adapt the same sort of food wholly, which I suppose Cyprus hasn't done in spite of being first world. They all thought I was a weirdo for drinking so much milk!
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@Monkey:
Her eyes being brown is the least of her Russian issues anyway, natural jet black hair is rare as crap in Russia (unless someone's got Asian nomad/Caucasus ancestry or something). Russians are pretty damn light haired on average.
Well, her mother looks as Russian as one can get, what with the silver hair.
Even the name (Olvia) sounds Russian.
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@Monkey:
T North and South Koreans today lol.
Just looking at the average height map, the richer European side is taller on average than the poorer African side. I would expect that when North Africa reaches levels places like Spain and Italy are at while adapting some similar diet they would catch up or close. But they might just not adapt the same sort of food wholly, which I suppose Cyprus hasn't done in spite of being first world. They all thought I was a weirdo for drinking so much milk!
I drank milk by the truckload and ended up being short. My bones are steel though.
The North Korean South Korean thing is really quite sad. Talk about a stain of humanity. I heard a couple years ago people were digging up graves to eat. Why do we bother to take them seriously in any way? North Korea needs to wake up but the weirdos in power aren't budging. I guess I wouldn't either the truth's pretty embarrassing.
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Well, her mother looks as Russian as one can get, what with the silver hair.
Even the name (Olvia) sounds Russian.
No one really has silver hair except old people and people with genetic conditions. I don't know what Russians you've encountered, but silver anime people hair is not a feature of anyone alive.
Olvia doesn't sound particularly Slavic either, dunno what you're talking about.–- Update From New Post Merge ---
I drank milk by the truckload and ended up being short. My bones are steel though.
It's both genes and diet, interacting together in some complex dance that can alter heights between generations.
Why do we bother to take them seriously in any way?
A crazy person with a big bomb (maybe) is pretty frightening.
North Korea needs to wake up but the weirdos in power aren't budging. I guess I wouldn't either the truth's pretty embarrassing.
The guys in power have power and riches, why would they care if the population starves?
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@Monkey:
Nami stereotype wise also seems like an American though.
Jimbei meanwhile is a second Japanese stereotype pile lol.Usopp could plausibly be African if he was from North Africa I guess? Looks wise??
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We're talking about Nami, and she's got drinking skills to her credit.
In a convoluted way someone will read this as proof that jinbei wont join lol
Cant have two people of the same "what if origin country "
Either that or zoro dies in chapter 944 :ninja:
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@Monkey:
A crazy person with a big bomb (maybe) is pretty frightening.
North Korea's leadership might be stupid, but I'm pretty sure they have to realise that if they were to try to make a move and use said bomb, they would very soon regret it because they do not stand a chance against the rest of the world. Unless they somehow manage to get big allies that would even it out. I highly doubt it, though.
Regarding the Straw Hats' countries, I'm sure I remember seeing an illustration in which Oda drew the Straw Hats in the style of various countries and I remember Brook being the UK and Robin India I believe. That's why I was surprised to see that Brook was apparently Austria; I thought that illustration was "accurate" as far as the countries go that Oda mentioned earlier (apart from Luffy being Japan in it, I did know at the time that Zoro was supposed to be Japan). What was this illustration again?
EDIT: If I had scrolled down just a little bit further on the page where I confirmed Brook's nationality, I would have seen it. Here it is:
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Monkey D. Luffy: Japanese (Samurai attire)
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Roronoa Zoro: German (Lederhosen)
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Nami: American (Cowboy attire)
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Usopp: Brazilian (Carnival costume)
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Sanji: French (Musketeer attire)
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Tony Tony Chopper: Canadian (possibly) (Fur-lined winter coat)
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Nico Robin: Indian (Sari)
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Franky: Chinese (Kung Fu costume)
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Brook: British (Rocker clothing)
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@Monkey:
No one really has silver hair except old people and people with genetic conditions. I don't know what Russians you've encountered, but silver anime people hair is not a feature of anyone alive.
Olvia doesn't sound particularly Slavic either, dunno what you're talking about.I know silver hair doesn't exist on young people (closest would be platinum blond). It's more about the hair being light in the first place.
After all, it's not like there are green-haired Japanese people either, or cyan-haired Americans as well.
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North Korea's leadership might be stupid, but I'm pretty sure they have to realise that if they were to try to make a move and use said bomb, they would very soon regret it because they do not stand a chance against the rest of the world.
Ever seen Rebel Without a Cause? Brinkmanship assume neither side is suicidal obviously, but that there's a dangerous game of risks.
North Korea is simply too unpredictable, and no country including China has good intel on the inner goings on.
They know they don't stand a chance against the world, including specifically any single neighbor they have. That sort of paranoid siege mentality is baked into their psyche.Unless they somehow manage to get big allies that would even it out. I highly doubt it, though.
No, the opposite has been happening in fact. They had big allies. China and the USSR. Then over time they lost the last one obviously, with Russia sorta filling in as a vaguely apathetic partner. In the past years even China has clearly grown fed up with them. They're probably the most isolated they've ever been.
Regarding the Straw Hats' countries, I'm sure I remember seeing an illustration in which Oda drew the Straw Hats in the style of various countries and I remember Brook being the UK and Robin India I believe.
That was a color spread, not the same thing as the SBS question, which it didn't exactly match up with.
That's why I was surprised to see that Brook was apparently Austria; I thought that illustration was "accurate" as far as the countries go that Oda mentioned earlier (apart from Luffy being Japan in it, I did know at the time that Zoro was supposed to be Japan). What was this illustration again?
Neither is innacurate. They're both Oda just playing a fun little mental game of associating his cast with countries. A game that can have multiple different answers.
It's like that time in the News thread recently when we talked about what members of NATO = the Z team from Dragonball.
It's just a little game, not a serious binding concept thing.! http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-jy_ig0Q57Gk/VjKJMlwcLrI/AAAAAAAFpgs/Pd93LyXRInQ/s16000/0790-004.png
Robin would make a very very pale Indian, but it's not entirely impossible lol. She actually sorta reminds me sometimes of Padma from Top Chef.
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I know silver hair doesn't exist on young people (closest would be platinum blond). It's more about the hair being light in the first place.
After all, it's not like there are green-haired Japanese people either, or cyan-haired Americans as well.
But why would light hair mean Russia? Northern Europe has light hair across the board. Even some of the more middle Europe places have blondes around like Austria or France. Hell Japanese people seem convinced that Americans are all blondes lol.
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@Monkey:
Ever seen Rebel Without a Cause? Brinkmanship assume neither side is suicidal obviously, but that there's a dangerous game of risks.North Korea is simply too unpredictable, and no country including China has good intel on the inner goings on.They know they don't stand a chance against the world, including specifically any single neighbor they have. That sort of paranoid siege mentality is baked into their psyche.No, the opposite has been happening in fact. They had big allies. China and the USSR. Then over time they lost the last one obviously, with Russia sorta filling in as a vaguely apathetic partner. In the past years even China has clearly grown fed up with them. They're probably the most isolated they've ever been.That was a color spread, not the same thing as the SBS question, which it didn't exactly match up with.Neither is innacurate. They're both Oda just playing a fun little mental game of associating his cast with countries. A game that can have multiple different answers.It's like that time in the News thread recently when we talked about what members of NATO = the Z team from Dragonball.It's just a little game, not a serious binding concept thing.
! http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-jy_ig0Q57Gk/VjKJMlwcLrI/AAAAAAAFpgs/Pd93LyXRInQ/s16000/0790-004.pngRobin would make a very very pale Indian, but it's not entirely impossible lol. She actually sorta reminds me sometimes of Padma from Top Chef.–- Update From New Post Merge ---But why would light hair mean Russia? Northern Europe has light hair across the board. Even some of the more middle Europe places have blondes around like Austria or France. Hell Japanese people seem convinced that Americans are all blondes lol.
Not in the dumb way where republicans say "we should bomb the shit out of the middle east" but honestly…what do we stand to really lose by taking down North Korea's regime? It's almost a mercy kill with that level of corruption and overall horrible quality of life. I think light hair on Olvia which apparently isn't even a real name means Russian just because of all the clues we've been given about Robin put together. Like she was an pale icy tall assassin with originally blue eyes. I would bet the farm Oda was thinking Russian when he designed Robin. The black hair doesn't fit though you're right about that. Like you say, it isn't a perfect representation that's not what Oda was going for.
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@Monkey:
But why would light hair mean Russia? Northern Europe has light hair across the board. Even some of the more middle Europe places have blondes around like Austria or France. Hell Japanese people seem convinced that Americans are all blondes lol.
Well, like you said, the average Russian is more likely to have light hair, just like the average Northeastern European or Scandinavian.
But to Japan in general, Europe is often stereotyped as blonde land, just like the U.S. Just look at Cavendish, who is essentially Europe the Character.
But really, Robin's "Russianess" seem to come mostly from her invoking the image of the typical sensual assassin spy trope, who is usually a Russian girl like Black Widow or countless Bond Girls. Hair color doesn't seem to matter here.
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Not in the dumb way where republicans say "we should bomb the shit out of the middle east" but honestly…what do we stand to really lose by taking down North Korea's regime?
A collapse of the regime from invasion would be a horribly messy affair to begin with, considering how much brainwashing the peasants have do you think they would see it as liberation? Especially from one of the two countries most demonized in their propaganda (the other is Japan)? It would be a nightmare to muck into that.
China and South Korea would not want it to happened either like that. Because you're not thinking of the aftermath.
For China, if the regime collapses (even if not from invasion) this is a nightmare. Because China has the only border refugees would flood across (the border with the South is basically impossible to pass alive due to decades of mining, walls, traps etc). So China would be looking at a torrent of starving crazy Koreans bumrushing them.
Meanwhile South Korea basically doesn't really want to have to deal with unification, because it would be a nightmare too. The two Germanys had a rough time of unifying, and the former East is still comparatively kind of poor.
Here's a map of the EU, with the parts of countries categorized as basically "blue:rich, yellow:meh, red:poor". East Germany is still "meh" even after 25 years.We may soon get a second example of unifying countries with Cyprus, and even in that tiny and less complicated situation than either Germany or Korea there are lots of stressful crazy things to think about.
For the Koreas?? I dunno if you read the News thread religiously but I post a thing called the HDI sometimes. Which ranks living standards in countries. South Korea has standards on par with like Iceland. North Korea is like….Nigeria.
Imagine the process of fitting those together again...guh....North Korea is the world's favorite can to kick down the road. We can pray only that the next leader is someone like Deng Xiaoping.
I think light hair on Olvia which apparently isn't even a real name means Russian just because of all the clues we've been given about Robin put together. Like she was an pale icy tall assassin with originally blue eyes.
They're only blue in the anime, the anime which also gives her tan skin for some reason.
I would bet the farm Oda was thinking Russian when he designed Robin.
Really? Because I'd bet he was thinking of Pulp Fiction.
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Well, like you said, the average Russian is more likely to have light hair, just like the average Eastern European or Scandinavian.
And most Germans…many Brits....the Dutch...lots of French...Austrians....Swiss....Hungarians...
In what way is this specific lol.But to Japan in general, Europe is often stereotyped as blonde land, just like the U.S. Just look at Cavendish, who is essentially Europe the Character.
Well yeah I agree. That hurts the Russia argument.
But really, Robin's "Russianess" seem to come mostly from her invoking the image of the typical sensual assassin spy trope, who is usually a Russian girl like Black Widow or countless Bond Girls.
I'd buy this if Oda had made her flower moves have Russian words.
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@Monkey:
I'd buy this if Oda had made her flower moves have Russian words.
Oda is just now dabbling in Russian as one of the minks recently used a move in Russian (Golova). Maybe one day.
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@Monkey:
Being a personal unit of the the nobility isn't the same thing as having higher authority than the WG. These are completely different concepts.
I am well aware of this. Did you perhaps assume that I had inferred the conclusion that CP0 have higher authority than the WG from the proposition that they are the personal unit of the world nobles? If that is the case, then I didn't. What sparked this notion in my mind were Akainu's words concerning the authorization of the publication of the false report by CP0.
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@Monkey:
A collapse of the regime from invasion would be a horribly messy affair to begin with, considering how much brainwashing the peasants have do you think they would see it as liberation? Especially from one of the two countries most demonized in their propaganda (the other is Japan)? It would be a nightmare to muck into that.China and South Korea would not want it to happened either like that. Because you're not thinking of the aftermath.For China, if the regime collapses (even if not from invasion) this is a nightmare. Because China has the only border refugees would flood across (the border with the South is basically impossible to pass alive due to decades of mining, walls, traps etc). So China would be looking at a torrent of starving crazy Koreans bumrushing them.Meanwhile South Korea basically doesn't really want to have to deal with unification, because it would be a nightmare too. The two Germanys had a rough time of unifying, and the former East is still comparatively kind of poor.Here's a map of the EU, with the parts of countries categorized as basically "blue:rich, yellow:meh, red:poor". East Germany is still "meh" even after 25 years.We may soon get a second example of unifying countries with Cyprus, and even in that tiny and less complicated situation than either Germany or Korea there are lots of stressful crazy things to think about.For the Koreas?? I dunno if you read the News thread religiously but I post a thing called the HDI sometimes. Which ranks living standards in countries. South Korea has standards on par with like Iceland. North Korea is like….Nigeria.Imagine the process of fitting those together again...guh....North Korea is the world's favorite can to kick down the road. We can pray only that the next leader is someone like Deng Xiaoping.
In my opinion this is a little heartless. There has to be some action to be taken hasn't there? It's just a little bit too much suffering to just state that anything would be worse than leaving it alone. Even if it didn't work out that well for a little while…wouldn't it overall be a lot better to at least try something out? I feel that it's just plain irresponsible to pretend that there isn't action to be taken. I dislike gridlock and would rather see a failure than a failure to try. Failure at least can lead to an eventual success. Or is there some high strategy regarding North Korea that I don't see?
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Don't know where or when I was talking about this but I just want to point out that Fukaboshi did not give Luffy the Green light to physically destroy Fishman Island. When he asked Luffy to bring Fishman Island back to nothing/zero that was the impression we were given especially after a year of Sharly's prediction in our minds but it wasn't the case.
The very page that Luffy asks Jinbe to join the crew during the blood transfusion, Fukaboshi tearfully says "This is the nothing from which we start anew…"
Just in case folks thought otherwise.
You were talking about this with me, you silly.
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Do you still think it is a metaphor? -
You were talking about this with me, you silly.
! http://i.imgur.com/eTM7Igp.jpg
Do you still think it is a metaphor?Well if Fukaboshi wanted Luffy to physically destroy Fishman Island, why not just tell him to let Noah fall on the place? Certainly he didn't want the inhabitants to die.
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What do you make of this page then?
The official translation by VIZ.
Fukaboshi: "This is the nothing from which we start anew mother."
What else could it be?
Folks who read One Piece… Just better people. ¯\(ツ)/¯
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Well if Fukaboshi wanted Luffy to physically destroy Fishman Island, why not just tell him to let Noah fall on the place? Certainly he didn't want the inhabitants to die.
! http://i2.mangapanda.com/one-piece/648/one-piece-2844071.jpg
What do you make of this page then?
The official translation by VIZ.
Fukaboshi: "This is the nothing from which we start anew mother."
What else could it be?
I have a different translation. It says here 'zero' instead of 'nothing'. It may be the cause of our different opinions.
Before I give you a fair answer, do you remember if Otohime was talking about 'zero' or 'nothing'? If so, where? I'll look into this too, but later
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I am well aware of this. Did you perhaps assume that I had inferred the conclusion that CP0 have higher authority than the WG from the proposition that they are the personal unit of the world nobles? If that is the case, then I didn't. What sparked this notion in my mind were Akainu's words concerning the authorization of the publication of the false report by CP0.
The line where he mocks the Gorusei angrily in hyperbolic fashion?
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@Monkey:
The line where he mocks the Gorusei angrily in hyperbolic fashion?
Yes. But that's not the only one. He was also inquiring about whether the Five Elders were the ones behind the false report or some higher authority.
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I have already listed the premises behind my former convictions(that CP0 has higher authority than the WG) in the post you replied to. Also, just for the record, I have already addressed this issue once more in that very same page. Of course, any further thoughts on this matter are greatly welcome. -
In my opinion this is a little heartless. There has to be some action to be taken hasn't there?
There's far too many disaster scenarios involved, including a spiteful last minute nuking of Seoul or something like that from the NK. A endless insurgency involving locals. Lots of US body bags. And that both China and SK would refuse such an operation makes it a non-starter.
Even if it didn't work out that well for a little while…wouldn't it overall be a lot better to at least try something out?
The stuff I mentioned was largely China and SK's feelings. Which hate it or love it, are feelings not under our control.
We've seen how sour removals of nasty dictatorships can go in the aftermath as well. Things could get worse. Hell maybe they set the nuke off on themselves, hell even maybe just by accident.I feel that it's just plain irresponsible to pretend that there isn't action to be taken. I dislike gridlock and would rather see a failure than a failure to try.
Gridlock is by nature something one actor can't untangle. Which is half the problem. Especially concerning a topic where as I said, nobody has good intel. Not even China, who was caught off guard when Jong Il died.
Failure at least can lead to an eventual success.
Hmm, no not necessarily.
Or is there some high strategy regarding North Korea that I don't see?
It's such a bizarre situation that it's really hard to plan at it.
The communist world collapsed by and large at the end of the 80's, and the stragglers have all moderated at varying degrees. China, Laos, and Vietnam are no longer communist economcially and even their authoritarian governments are better more liberal forms than they used to be. Cuba is slowly and surely emerging from the cold, when Castro finally dies one can assume things will speed up.
But North Korea, North Korea has only actually gotten worse since the Cold War ended. This is a radical exception to so so many rules. Such a nasty case of worst scenarios, a toxic vat where someone poured in fascism, divine right monarchy, feudalism, and stalinism together.–- Update From New Post Merge ---
! http://i.imgur.com/ovulU5D.jpg
I have already listed the premises behind my former convictions(that CP0 has higher authority than the WG) in the post you replied to. Also, just for the record, I have already addressed this issue once more in that very same page. Of course, any further thoughts on this matter are greatly welcome.I don't remember that being in the Viz translation, though maybe I'm mistaken. Where is that from?
Also for the record, I've already had this debate several times in various threads. -
@Monkey:
I don't remember that being in the Viz translation, though maybe I'm mistaken. Where is that from?
Also for the record, I've already had this debate several times in various threads.It is from chapter 793.
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@Monkey:
No, who was the translation from.
Oops, sorry. It was from Cnet128. You'll find the chapter in Powermanga.
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Oops, sorry. It was from Cnet128. You'll find the chapter in Powermanga.
I'd have to get that volume (is it even out yet) with Viz before I continue this tbh.
But my memory of what Steven or whoever was saying, is that the tone of the scene is Akainu angrily mocking the Gorusei for having the World Nobles go around their backs. Sort of like a "Who wears the pants in that relationship!!" kind of deal.
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@Monkey:
I'd have to get that volume (is it even out yet) with Viz before I continue this tbh.
It's understandable. The volume you desire isn't out yet unfortunately.
@Monkey:But my memory of what Steven or whoever was saying, is that the tone of the scene is Akainu angrily mocking the Gorusei for having the World Nobles go around their backs. Sort of like a "Who wears the pants in that relationship!!" kind of deal.
Yes, that's what I think as well because when Sakazuki said that the matter was carried out above even their heads, they found his words offensive.
As for 'higher up', I think that stands for the Celestial Dragons.
Another thing that had further led me to the thought that CP0 is above the WG was Dragon's apprehension concerning CP0's recent gain of power, but, on second thought, I thought that maybe that had been just the matter of concern at that time.
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Secret police has traditionally had power to override certain authorities in the interest of "greater good".
WG is a complex system and we know little of their inner workings. There might be some elements among Celestials who don't like the way things are now and are backing CP. Or there's a hungry person leading CP. Spandine and Spandam seemed more interested in their own careers than anything else. Speaking of Spandine, we have yet to find out what his position is.
Sorry if you already covered all of this, didn't read everything.
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As for 'higher up', I think that stands for the Celestial Dragons.
The thing with that is I simply don't believe that the Dragons are higher than the Gorusei.
I'm not saying that they're strictly subordinate either exactly, but that there's a classic "Kings vs the Nobility" tension. Nobles may not wear the crown, but collectively they can screw with kings plenty.Another thing that had further led me to the thought that CP0 is above the WG was Dragon's apprehension concerning CP0's recent gain of power, but, on second thought, I thought that maybe that had been just the matter of concern at that time.
That seems too vague to support really anything tbh.
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@Monkey:
The thing with that is I simply don't believe that the Dragons are higher than the Gorusei.
I'm not saying that they're strictly subordinate either exactly, but that there's a classic "Kings vs the Nobility" tension. Nobles may not wear the crown, but collectively they can screw with kings plenty.When Doflamingo was talking about a portion of the history from the Void Century, he said that the World Government was 'formed' by 20 kings known as the 'creators', and he further said that even now 'they' reside in Mariejois 'reigning' over the world. The pronoun 'they', because of its ambiguous reference, could either refer to the remaining 19 families of the creators or it could refer to the creators themselves. In the latter case, it would mean that the creators are still alive, and it is not unreasonable to form such thought because of the powers of the Ope Ope Fruit. In either case, this indicates their supremacy.
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When Doflamingo was talking about a portion of the history from the Void Century, he said that the World Government was 'formed' by 20 kings known as the 'creators', and he further said that even now 'they' reside in Mariejois 'reigning' over the world. The pronoun 'they', because of its ambiguous reference, could either refer to the remaining 19 families of the creators or it could refer to the creators themselves.
You're wildly mis-remembering what was said and shown about the 20 kings. Doflamingo mentioned that the descendants of the 20 kings are the world nobles, we even essentially had this further observed by how Doflamingo's ancestor was the king of Dressrosa before the Riku dynasty. And that the reason the crown changed hands on the island was because the Doflamingo dynasty shoved off to live in Mariejois. This was clearly stated, and then later given a direct example with the Dressrosa crown shuffle.
I'm confused how you're confused by any of this given even your own example page states this.
Unless you're saying that Doflamingo's words suggest that the World Nobles outrank the Gorusei.
But that forgets that the Gorusei when introduced were stated (in the narrative box) as the SUPREME leaders of the WG.If you must fit things with other things here to avoid conflict then the only logical conclusion would be that the Gorusei themselves are Celestial Dragons.
I would further suggest that you're on to something though with the idea that there are Ope Ope users ruling the government, because I've long favored the theory that the Gorusei have been alive since the Void Century. Making them alone perhaps five ageless kings still ruling from those days.–- Update From New Post Merge ---
If this is new to you consider several things about the Gorusei.
1. These are clearly men who at least some were combat active at some point, yet they are unmentioned as belonging to the generation that they would logically have been apart of or near to. That of Garp, Sengoku and Roger.
2. They have appeared looking exactly the same no matter when we have been shown them in flashbacks. Oda never misses a chance to depict differences in how people looked when doing flashbacks that include them. Hell nevermind the way they look the same, the fact also stands that it was the same exact Gorusei in both Franky and Robin's flashbacks. -
@Monkey:
You're wildly mis-remembering what was said and shown about the 20 kings. Doflamingo mentioned that the descendants of the 20 kings are the world nobles, we even essentially had this further observed by how Doflamingo's ancestor was the king of Dressrosa before the Riku dynasty. And that the reason the crown changed hands on the island was because the Doflamingo dynasty shoved off to live in Mariejois. This was clearly stated, and then later given a direct example with the Dressrosa crown shuffle.
I'm confused how you're confused by any of this given even your own example page states this.There appears to be a misunderstanding here: I have never said or suggested anything contrary to this. I know all of this already.
@Monkey:Unless you're saying that Doflamingo's words suggest that the World Nobles outrank the Gorusei.
But that forgets that the Gorusei when introduced were stated (in the narrative box) as the SUPREME leaders of the WG.Yes, that was what I was saying. If the Gorosei are the supreme leaders of the World Government, then the creators or their families (be it their old ones from 800 years ago or their descendants) are the supreme leaders of the world. The C. Dragons even consider themselves 'gods'.
It could be that the Gorosei are themselves one of the 20 kings.
In any case, we have one thing for certain: the creators and/ or their families are still ruling the world.
@Monkey:If you must fit things with other things here to avoid conflict then the only logical conclusion would be that the Gorusei themselves are Celestial Dragons.
I would further suggest that you're on to something though with the idea that there are Ope Ope users ruling the government, because I've long favored the theory that the Gorusei have been alive since the Void Century. Making them alone perhaps five ageless kings still ruling from those days.Yes, Doflamingo used the pronoun 'they' when it had two antecedents preceding it: the creators' families & the creators themselves. We don't know for certain to whom, between the two, he was referring. So in case he was referring to the creators themselves (since that was what the discussion was about), it would mean that they are still alive (or at least some of them are). Doflamingo was using the present tense to express an action taking place by people from the past. He even emphasized the passage of time by the phrase 'even now'.
As for the Gorosei, I have already noticed that, and I share your thoughts on the matter. From Robin's flashback until now people aged (Akainu, for instance, since he was shown younger and without wrinkles on his face), but the Five Elders have remained the same. Also, their epithet 'the five elders' has been in use ever since Robin's flashback, yet the effects of time (22 years) didn't seem to have made any change on them. My money is on 'they are immortal'.
There are other clues as well:their knowledge of the ancient history when it has been eradicated from all records.
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Yes, that was what I was saying. If the Gorosei are the supreme leaders of the World Government, then the creators or their families (be it their old ones from 800 years ago or their descendants) are the supreme leaders of the world. The C. Dragons even consider themselves 'gods'.
It could be that the Gorosei are themselves one of the 20 kings.
But we're at odds on the relationship between the Dragons and Gorusei aren't we?
My reading of things thus far is that it's a classic monarchy sort of situation.
The Gorusei (collectively) are the king. And the World Nobles are as in One Piece the nobility.
Like in real world kingdoms there is a constant tension of power between the crown and the nobles. The king may be the most powerful person, but a large and influential nobility still has it's own power.
In a democratic country this sort of tension exists between the head of state (president, prime minister, chancellor) and the body of elected officials (congress, parliament).I'm not sure if you disagree with this?
In any case, we have one thing for certain: the creators and/ or their families are still ruling the world.
Doflamingo was using the present tense to express an action taking place by people from the past. He even emphasized the passage of time by the phrase 'even now'.
If he was talking about dynasties (which he was) there is no conflict in this grammar.
As for the Gorosei, I have already noticed that, and I share your thoughts on the matter. From Robin's flashback until now people aged (Akainu, for instance, since he was shown younger and without wrinkles on his face), but the Five Elders have remained the same. Also, their epithet 'the five elders' has been in use ever since Robin's flashback, yet the effects of time (22 years) didn't seem to have made any change on them. My money is on 'they are immortal'.
There are other clues as well:their knowledge of the ancient history when it has been eradicated from all records.
But do you think that they're the only ones or no?
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I'm sure this has probably been mentioned many times before since it's from an early saga, but I don't feel like going around looking for it. I was re-watching the Baroque Works saga recently, and marveling (as always) about how brilliant Sanji's "Mr. Prince" plan was because none of the Baroque Works officer agents knew about him…until I realized that there was one who did: Nico Robin, a.k.a. Miss All-Sunday, who met the entire crew at the end of Whiskey Peak (including Sanji and Usopp, whom the officers also didn't know about at the time). In hindsight, the hints were there that she was undermining Crocodile from the beginning, rather than simply turning on him at the end; she clearly never bothered to tell her boss or the other agents, "Oh hey, in addition to the guys you drew pictures of, there are a couple more crew members as well", since he didn't find out about Usopp until Mr. 3 and Mr. 2 Bon Clay mentioned him in Alabasta, and didn't find out about Sanji at all (knowing him only as Mr. Prince, and not knowing what he looked like). Even when "Mr. Prince" called them and Robin was standing right there, she didn't say anything about it. Since no one explicitly points it out in the story, it's easy to not notice that stuff the first time around, but it jumps out at you during a reread. Hindsight is 20-20.
Hidden:
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Robin also knew that Vivi was a spy within the BW, Robin noticed her when Vivi discovered that Mr. 0 was Crocodile. Robin didn't reveal it then but I don't know how Crocodile found out about Ms. Wednesday being Princess Vivi later.
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@Monkey:
If this is new to you consider several things about the Gorusei.
1. These are clearly men who at least some were combat active at some point, yet they are unmentioned as belonging to the generation that they would logically have been apart of or near to. That of Garp, Sengoku and Roger.
2. They have appeared looking exactly the same no matter when we have been shown them in flashbacks. Oda never misses a chance to depict differences in how people looked when doing flashbacks that include them. Hell nevermind the way they look the same, the fact also stands that it was the same exact Gorusei in both Franky and Robin's flashbacks.Same might have been achieved with various Bonney fruit users over the years. But that's been guessed at ever since her importance to WG was discovered.
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I just thought about this, but wouldn't Chopper falling for that reindeer mink technically make him reindeer version of a furry? :ninja:
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@Monkey:
But we're at odds on the relationship between the Dragons and Gorusei aren't we?
My reading of things thus far is that it's a classic monarchy sort of situation.
The Gorusei (collectively) are the king. And the World Nobles are as in One Piece the nobility.
Like in real world kingdoms there is a constant tension of power between the crown and the nobles. The king may be the most powerful person, but a large and influential nobility still has it's own power.
In a democratic country this sort of tension exists between the head of state (president, prime minister, chancellor) and the body of elected officials (congress, parliament).I'm not sure if you disagree with this?
When the Celestial Dragons were introduced to us for the first time by Pappug, he said that the World Government was created by 20 Kings and that 'their descendants, the Celestial Dragons, have grossly abused their power'.
!
In the context of that discussion, the word 'power' refers to the the Government. This is the first indication that the Celestial Dragons are the ones pulling the strings.The second indication is Doflamingo's words: 'they' reside in Mariejois 'reigning' over this world.
The third one is when Sakazuki used the word 'higher up' to refer to someone of a much higher authority than the Gorosei.
With these facts available, it is difficult for one to disbelieve the idea that they are higher than the Gorosei.
If 'higher up' does not refer to the Celestial Dragons, then to whom could it possibly refer in your opinion?
@Monkey:If he was talking about dynasties (which he was) there is no conflict in this grammar.
It might be true that he was talking about dynasties, but only if the antecedent of 'they' is the 19 families. The 'creators', however, cannot be used in such way because it expresses a completely different concept. The Celestial Dragons didn't create the WG, so it would be wrong to apply that word to them.
@Monkey:But do you think that they're the only ones or no?
I am open to the possibility that there could be others who are immortal (I am talking about people who have lived from the Void Century). So far, there hasn't been enough evidence to go one way or the other.
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In the context of that discussion, the word 'power' refers to the the Government. This is the first indication that the Celestial Dragons are the ones pulling the strings.
No it's not. Nobility having power in a state structure? …well ....duh?
How does that imply they're pulling the strings at all? Sure some strings, but that's not what you're saying is it.The second indication is Doflamingo's words: 'they' reside in Mariejois 'reigning' over this world.
As do technically all people in a governmental capital in the state structure. The US Congress also resides in Washington DC reigning over the US technically. But they are not the president and individually aren't all that powerful.
The third one is when Sakazuki used the word 'higher up' to refer to someone of a much higher authority than the Gorosei.
And I'm still not recalling that in the earlier/other translations.
With these facts available, it is difficult for one to disbelieve the idea that they are higher than the Gorosei.
How about the fact that the Gorusei are called the Supreme leaders of the WG. And not by a character in ambiguous terms, but by the author in the narrative box introducing them.
Also that what the heck kind of state structure has a huge mass of nobility at the top. No specific leadership position or anything, just "the nobility". It doesn't even make sense in the first place.It might be true that he was talking about dynasties,
He's talking about the dynasties. In fact so is Pappug clearly in the thing you just posted. You're the only person to ever question this.
but only if the antecedent of 'they' is the 19 families. The 'creators', however, cannot be used in such way because it expresses a completely different concept.
….did you read the page you posted? Because the antecedent in his dialogue is literally the families.
The Celestial Dragons didn't create the WG, so it would be wrong to apply that word to them.
The dynasties they belong to did so it's not wrong. This is extremely common in talking about dynasties, as a history Grad trust me. Also groups of related peoples in general.
Is English your native language btw? -
Another notion dating back to Alabasta and Baroque Works: Now that we know the awseomely dark secret behind Sanji's eyebrows I find it interesting that of the top dozen numbers of Baroque Works that the only one we were not shown during the story were MISTER 6 & his partner Ms. Mother's Day.
As the Mr. Prince clues started back there could this have been deliberate? Could Mr. 6 have been one of Sanji's brothers and in that case did he really just happen not to encounter the Straw Hats or could this be something that Sanji took care of behind the scenes?
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We have 3 or 4 fruits that migth give immortality, bonnie, the op fruit the 1up fruit and the Phoenix fruit. While the collection of 5 dead doctors in quick succession seems the most likely I find it somewhat boring..
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Bonney's fruit doesn't really give immortality though, it just alters ageing.
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So? None of these fruits would protect you if you fall into a volcano, the point is that they don't die of old age and are very resilient against regular injuries.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Oh there is ein's fruit as well, Z's female subordinate
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@Monkey:
No it's not. Nobility having power in a state structure? …well ....duh?
How does that imply they're pulling the strings at all? Sure some strings, but that's not what you're saying is it.Back at Green Bit Law said that there is hardly anybody in the world who commands the power of the World Government aside from the Celestial Dragons.
This tells us more about the 'higher up' that Sakazuki spoke of.
@Monkey:How about the fact that the Gorusei are called the Supreme leaders of the WG. And not by a character in ambiguous terms, but by the author in the narrative box introducing them.
That doesn't seem to stop the Celestial Dragons from having their orders executed by Gorosei. Another evidence of this is when Doflamingo stole money from the Celestial Dragons to coerce the Government into making him a warlord (Ch. 727).
@Monkey:Also that what the heck kind of state structure has a huge mass of nobility at the top. No specific leadership position or anything, just "the nobility". It doesn't even make sense in the first place.
The problem is that you are looking at things in One Piece from a normative aspect (how things should be) instead of looking at them from descriptive aspect (how things are).
@Monkey:Because the antecedent in his dialogue is literally the families.
You know, there are two antecedents preceding 'they': the families and another 'they' that refers to the creators (the 20 kings that created the Government). You may be right that the final 'they' could refer to the families. The reason I am saying this is that in English it is recommended that you place the pronoun close enough to its antecedent even when there is only one antecedent preceding that pronoun. And the closest antecedent between the two antecedents (the families and the other 'they') is 'the families'. However, being the closest antecedent to a pronoun doesn't always mean it is 'the' antecedent to which that pronoun is referring. In that case, we have an 'ambiguous pronoun reference'. Here is an example: Jack chose Sheepshead because he knew what he was doing. The closest antecedent to 'he' is Sheepshead, but that doesn't mean it IS 'the' antecedent of the pronoun 'he'. In that case, any of the two antecedents (Jack or Sheepshead) could substitute the pronoun 'he' regardless of the adjacency between 'he' and 'Sheepshead'.
@Monkey:The dynasties they belong to did so it's not wrong. This is extremely common in talking about dynasties, as a history Grad trust me.
I am sorry to say this, but that's a fallacious argument. It's called the 'Appeal to Authority' Fallacy. The structure of the argument is like this: 'I am an expert in this field of expertise; therefore, I am right about what I say'.
There are several reasons why the cited authority could be wrong: The person might be biased or prejudiced, may have a motive to lie or disseminate misinformation, may lack the requisite ability to recall or perceive, and so on & so forth. I am talking generally here.
The reason why I said that the families might refer to the dynasties was because it would hardly make sense to say 'the creators (the 20/19 kings) took their dynasties (families) and moved to Mariejois'; however, that wasn't what was happening: The meanings of the family words shifted once the discussion there shifted from the creators' families (sisters, brothers, nieces etc) to both the Nefertari family & the 19 families that moved to Mariejois. There were three family words in that discussion: the families that the kings took with them to Mariejois, the Nefertari family, and the 19 families. The first one carries the meaning of people related by blood (the usual, everyday meaning of the word family), whereas the other two carry the meaning of dynasty. So you are right: He was indeed talking about dynasties.
Concerning the creators, however, I do not think it refers to dynasties, especially when the creators is an epithet of the 20 kings that created the World Government. That epithet is used to draw a distinction between the progenitors of the World Government (as well as the 20 kings who fought against the ancient kingdom 800 years ago) and the Celestial Dragons, their descendants that came after that battle had ended. If we apply that word to the both of them (the 20 kings and their descendants), then we will loose that vital distinction.
@Monkey:Is English your native language btw?
What would a yes or no change? Saying that a person is wrong about Y because the language X is not their native language is a fallacy called 'Poisoning the Well'.
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Back at Green Bit Law said that there is hardly anybody in the world who commands the power of the World Government aside from the Celestial Dragons.
http://i.imgur.com/CkRxIcE.png
This tells us more about the 'higher up' that Sakazuki spoke of."Hardly" implies few. Like say….five.
That doesn't seem to stop the Celestial Dragons from having their orders executed by Gorosei.
And when did this happened?
Another evidence of this is when Doflamingo stole money from the Celestial Dragons to coerce the Government into making him a warlord (Ch. 727).
The coercion was on the basis of his little blackmail secret as I recall.
The problem is that you are looking at things in One Piece from a normative aspect (how things should be) instead of looking at them from descriptive aspect (how things are).
Such as narrative boxes that include things stated directly by the author and not flawed in-universe characters?
Also neither of us is doing anything different than the other, we're both taking dialogue. I am also applying logic that I trust Oda to use (as he usually does) to those things stated.You know, there are two antecedents preceding 'they': the families and another 'they' that refers to the creators
Unless Oda writes in some wacky manner where two different words can precede something at the same exact time then no, there's only one antecedent. And it's the families. The creators are mentioned earlier and not even in like a list or something.
Your point about me avoiding descriptive thinking is pretty absurd given this entire thing about thinking all the 19 kings are still alive forever, an idea you've pretty much created from wholecloth.You may be right that the final 'they' could refer to the families. The reason I am saying this is that in English it is recommended that you place the pronoun close enough to its antecedent even when there is only one antecedent preceding that pronoun.
Yeah I'm pretty familiar with English, and that sentence unquestionably reads that the dynasties continue to rule from Mariejois. You'd also think that just maybe a thing like the 19 king still being alive would be a massive secret both in universe or at the least from Oda to us the readers. And not something driven by quickly in vague easily misinterpreted dialogue (notice how you're the literal only person who thinks this thing) by Doflamingo. If you simultaneously believe the Gorusei are also immortal then this also doesn't make sense with the way Oda has very very subtlely been maybe hinting at that without coming out and saying anything to it.
Nothing at all about this makes sense.Jack chose Sheepshead because he knew what he was doing. The closest antecedent to 'he' is Sheepshead, but that doesn't mean it IS 'the' antecedent of the pronoun 'he'.
Except in this sentence Jack is the active participant choosing a passive subject, it would heinous grammar to have the "he" refer to the Sheepshead.
In that case, any of the two antecedents (Jack or Sheepshead) could substitute the pronoun 'he' regardless of the adjacency between 'he' and 'Sheepshead'.
Only if you don't know how to construct a functional sentence. Any teacher or professor would call you out on that sentence in an essay. I would tell a student to change it myself, it's not good writing.
This example isn't even irrelevant though because the actual dialogue is separated and not in one sentence. Doflamingo ends the previous sentence with the families, and begins the new one with They. That precisely how that whole thing scans.I am sorry to say this, but that's a fallacious argument. It's called the 'Appeal to Authority' Fallacy. The structure of the argument is like this: 'I am an expert in this field of expertise; therefore, I am right about what I say'.
Honestly I was saying that because I found it really weird that you didn't know such a common thing and thought you'd be satisfied with that. But instead you want to suddenly turn on the formal debate faucet and apparently actually don't think dynasties are referred too grammatically like this?
If someone was writing about Germany in 1917 they could write this sentence and absolutely nobody would question it.
"The Hohenzollern's united Germany under the Prussian monarchy, and they still rule it to this day."
Or for contemporary purposes "The Kims established their rule in North Korea after WW2, and they still rule it to this day."
Actually you don't even need to go the history route.
"The Pepe family opened their famous pizzeria in downtown New Haven in the 1920's, and they still run it to this day."This is completely correct English usage. And is extremely common to boot.
At this point though your strange nitpicking and digging into dialogue to uncover obscure spoilers no one else has mentioned shouldn't even be examining a second-hand translation, even from Viz unless you want to literally talk to Stephen. You should be nitpicking Japanese.There were three family words in that discussion: the families that the kings took with them to Mariejois, the Nefertari family, and the 19 families. The first one carries the meaning of people related by blood (the usual, everyday meaning of the word family), whereas the other two carry the meaning of dynasty. So you are right: He was indeed talking about dynasties.
Do you not know what a dynasty is? Should I call them Houses? If you wanted to a pretentious weirdo you could call your own family a dynasty or "house of smiths" or something. Dynasties are blood families, and a word usually reserved for nobility or at the least some sort of blood related powerful rich people.
Concerning the creators, however, I do not think it refers to dynasties, especially when the creators is an epithet of the 20 kings that created the World Government. That epithet is used to draw a distinction between the progenitors of the World Government (as well as the 20 kings who fought against the ancient kingdom 800 years ago) and the Celestial Dragons, their descendants that came after that battle had ended. If we apply that word to the both of them (the 20 kings and their descendants), then we will loose that vital distinction.
The fuck are you even talking about lol. You're overthinking everything so hard it's gone into some sort of contortion contest.
There's nothing confusing about this.
A dynasty covers both these things, the creators, and their descendents. That's exactly what a dynasty friggin' is. The word is frequently used to cover a family through time and space, it's broad and useful and in no way destroys any distinctions. Hell this is even less complex than that because the creators weren't just random vagabonds who founded dynasties…they were pre-existing dynasties because all of them were already kings.
Why you're veen nitpicking this (incorrectly at that) I've lost all sight of. What does this have to do with anything.
Best I can figure is you're trying to say that it's impossible for Oda to say "families still rule to this day" when it absolutely isn't whatsoever. We don't even need any of this dynasty talk. It's completely normal English to use the word family like that, especially when speaking of an enterprise or institution connected to the family in question. It's used in day to day English to refer to political families, business families, and even our own family history or that of neighbors and friends.What would a yes or no change?
Because you don't actually seem to know how people use the English language very well. I'm accusing you of this.
Saying that a person is wrong about Y because the language X is not their native language is a fallacy called 'Poisoning the Well'.
Alright kiddo, I know the fallacies like the back of my hand thanks. You can stop cracking open the book to look them up. We're not in a formal debate here, if I'm going to ask you a person to person question that suggests I don't think you know what you're talking about it's not the same thing as trying to make some grand formal point.
But if you're going to keep condescending to me with them, then how about you start playing by your own rules, and instead of making spurious inexperienced sounding claims about how English is used perhaps actually provide evidence that what you're saying is correct in the first place.
It would also help to recognize that Occam's Razor is a generally respected thing in speculation based arguments, and your strange attempt to squeeze "the 19 kings still live!" out of extremely loose dialogue would be laughed at in the circles you're attempting to belong to. -
@Monkey:
It would also help to recognize that Occam's Razor is a generally respected thing in speculation based arguments, and your strange attempt to squeeze "the 19 kings still live!" out of extremely loose dialogue would be laughed at in the circles you're attempting to belong to.
Idk I think this guy's the best challenger i've seen in a while.
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@Monkey:
But we're at odds on the relationship between the Dragons and Gorusei aren't we?
My reading of things thus far is that it's a classic monarchy sort of situation.
The Gorusei (collectively) are the king. And the World Nobles are as in One Piece the nobility.
Like in real world kingdoms there is a constant tension of power between the crown and the nobles. The king may be the most powerful person, but a large and influential nobility still has it's own power.
In a democratic country this sort of tension exists between the head of state (president, prime minister, chancellor) and the body of elected officials (congress, parliament).
In any case, we have one thing for certain: the creators and/ or their families are still ruling the world.The CD & Gorusei put me more in mind of the Ancient Egypt than anything else; the Celestial Dragons are the living God-Kings and wield ultimate power in theory, certainly their whims are catered to. But they are also isolated, in-bred and the temporal power they can muster is severely limited.
The Gorusei are the Priest and Military caste. Nominally subservient they wield most of the day to day power. There may be a practical reason why the CD have to be kept around even as a figurehead, perhaps some mechanism of Mariejois means that only they can access it's secrets, but the Gorusei are their guardians and gatekeepers and rule in practicality if not name.
Just an idea but maybe at one stage there was one representitive from each of the families selected to serve and of the 20 only these 5 have survived since the void century. Or the other way around and over the years these 5 have worked their way to current power, of the families but not part of them.
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Just a thought: FI should really build itself its own amusement park. It's a kingdom that for generations made its children sneak and stare in jealousy at another island's amusement park, which causes child kidnappings annually. Forget assimilating the rouge fishmen, start THERE.
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Just a thought: FI should really build itself its own amusement park. It's a kingdom that for generations made its children sneak and stare in jealousy at another island's amusement park, which causes child kidnappings annually. Forget assimilating the rouge fishmen, start THERE.
Why bother when it's going to be destroyed by Luffy anyways?
