The Monet Problem: An Arlong Park Wager

Robby

Reactions to comrades being killed (blasted):

http://www.batoto.net/read/_/106234/one-piece_ch670_by_mangarule/13

Thats the reaction to apparently seeing them hit by a deadly attack. Its not actual mourning or reflection. We get reaction shots all the time. And then usually the guys end up fine somehow or another (Well, Pauly was really good with ropes…) What we don't get it weight to the losses.

But my point is, if we take the past 2 chapter, ONLY THE PAST 2 CHAPTERS, then both Monet and Vergo are happy about being killed while serving Dofla. In fact, it seems like that gave a great closure to their characters, and, yes, they are heartfuly smiling:

Monet was happy to give her life pushing the button and taking out a bunch of Doflamingo's enemies. She failed at that. So, she no longer dies with her goal accomplished, she doesn't die happy, ergo, she is still alive.

Herodadotus

I still think Monet is gonna die soon, but she's probably going to manage one last attempt to destroy the base or something beforehand. I know it's One Piece, so I won't be surprised if it goes the other way.

And Vergo? Probably gonna make it.

Sir Derp

Put me in dead then.

Dofla will arrive when the Straw Hearts have just left and see her and vergo (probably alive), insert flashback and 'I will get you Law'

A man can dream can't he?

BroBro

Remember when everyone thought Moriah and Bon Kurei is dead?

haha yeah I hope Monet is dead though. Vergo can survive that explosion. He has that full haki shit

rubia_ryu

Dead. Who says the dead can't come back to life somehow anyway? And then, there's the mystery over artificial DFs…

Galaxy 9000

@rubia_ryu:

Dead. Who says the dead can't come back to life somehow anyway?

Oda would never pull a Kishi.

Portgas D. Law

Neither are dead i reckon! As per oda's usual
So.. out

BroBro

@Galaxy:

Oda would never pull a Kishi.

her body would be great in Moriah's zombie army

BobLoblaw

@Mark:

Remember when everyone thought Moriah and Bon Kurei is dead?

haha yeah I hope Monet is dead though. Vergo can survive that explosion. He has that full haki shit

The problem with this logic (including Pell), is that we assumed they died because there was no panel explicitly showing them being vaporized, decapitated, or stuff like that. We know she was stabbed in the heart. We know she wanted to die for Doflamingo. We know that Law gave the heart to CC on purpose in case something like this happened. With that being said, please stop comparing what happened with Monet to what happened with Pell, Bon Kurei, or Moriah. What happened to her should only be compared to what happened with Ace and WB since they both received fatal wounds before they were confirmed to have died.

kouch_lee

@RobbyBevard:

Thats the reaction to apparently seeing them hit by a deadly attack. Its not actual mourning or reflection. We get reaction shots all the time. And then usually the guys end up fine somehow or another (Well, Pauly was really good with ropes…) What we don't get it weight to the losses.

Then, this should serve: http://www.batoto.net/read/_/106234/one-piece_ch670_by_mangarule/15

I think that silent panel with Smoker/Tashigi was a pretty significant reflection, but I don't know to what extent it fits your criteria.

Monet was happy to give her life pushing the button and taking out a bunch of Doflamingo's enemies. She failed at that. So, she no longer dies with her goal accomplished, she doesn't die happy, ergo, she is still alive.

The reason she won't die is because she didn't get to die smiling? She was smiling miliseconds before dying. The way she was ABOUT to die was satosfactory to her. To me, that counts as something. Also, does that mean Vergo's dead, then? His last panel was him smiling, and then he went kaboom.

Yet, by Shounen logic, and being One Piece the king of shounen, we can agree his situation is less lethal than Monet's.

A direct stab to the heart is probably the most lethal attack in One Piece ever. It probably breaks all the rules of One Piece that we've come to accept to this point, even if unwillingly, but what if for ONCE, she dies because the attack she recieved is 100% lethal? Symbolism aside? (Even if, as I said, she got an immensely simbolic moment right before her unexpected death; if she were to not die now. . .what? She repeats said moment at another time, first checking that noone is gonna backstab her? Anticlimatic, ain't it?).

Which, by the way, brings me to this: sign me up on the "SHE'S DEAD" camp. I might regret it in a few months when it's revealed she's alive, but for now, I'll believe that she died.

Doesn't necessarily mean that I like it (I like Monet, and I don't know if her role is over, considering her harpy transformation at one point in time that we don't know why it happened, and the Chopper scene is still mighty weird to me), but I think she got enough closure; and, yes, she died by being backstabed, but her coda is a sadistic, moronic comment by Law. A novelty in the One Piece world but, hey, why not?

DynamiteShikoku

@Galaxy:

This was mentioned earlier.. but…

What did Mr. 11's death give us?

if my memory serves me right, mr 11's fate is uncertain. we never really see him dead nor he survived. so.. yeah. lots of chars are left uncertain and i dont recall seeing someone actually died on screen (except flashback and ace WB). most are only shown with blank white eyes which can mean they either pass out or dead and so uncertain. i didnt really check so i might be wrong.

Volpe

I'm willing to bet she's dead, even thought Oda wouldn't do something like that.

Friction

Not dead <= 16 chars

Galaxy 9000

@DynamiteShikoku:

if my memory serves me right, mr 11's fate is uncertain. we never really see him dead nor he survived. so.. yeah. lots of chars are left uncertain and i dont recall seeing someone actually died on screen (except flashback and ace WB). most are only shown with blank white eyes which can mean they either pass out or dead and so uncertain. i didnt really check so i might be wrong.

Tashigi confirmed his death.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

Off topic, but… BB is a terrible translation.

Mugiwara-San

I will say she is Dead.
At least thats what i wish for :D

Crossword

As far as I'm concerned the only present-day deaths in One Piece that have stuck apart from Whitebeard and Ace are Mr. 11, Bellamy, the priests minus Gedatsu, and Nero. And those Kicking Claw Squad morons.

Robby

@kouch_lee:

The reason she won't die is because she didn't get to die smiling?

Yup. Same reason Sabo wasn't dead.

If you have a name, you don't die in One Piece unless you've either fulfilled or passed on your dream and you go out smiling. Promises NEVER get broken, dreams don't go unfulfilled, you don't die unsatisfied. It's the rule and its been there for about 15 years now.

Roger died passing on the legend of One Piece and inspiring the entire following generation. So did Whitebeard.
Kuina passed her dreams to Zoro before dying.
Ussop's mother died passing on the dream that Usopp become a brave warrior.
Bellemere died having claimed the two girls as her official daughters.
Hiriluk died with the greatest damn speech and biggest smile ever.
Noland and Calgara both died insisting on their faith in the other, and had their faith played out hundreds of years later.
Olivia died protecting her books, and Saul died with a smile to encourage Robin.
The Rumba pirates all got in one last song and died knowing Brook would finish their journey.
Ace died having found acceptance and love.
Sabo had no accomplished dream or smile, and is still alive.
Bon Kurei even had a smile and no regrets, but is still alive, since his sacrifice was in vain. (Had Ace lived, Bon could have died.)

You can point to a handful of mooks that died subtly and unceremoniously, particularly early in the series, (up until Skypeia) but nobody with any actual screen time or aspirations has died with regrets since.

She was smiling miliseconds before dying. The way she was ABOUT to die was satosfactory to her. To me, that counts as something. Also, does that mean Vergo's dead, then? His last panel was him smiling, and then he went kaboom.

They were both content to die to further what Doflamingo wanted of them. Big explosion to also take out his enemies.

That didn't happen. They no longer die content. So. They're alive.

@Crossword:

As far as I'm concerned the only present-day deaths in One Piece that have stuck apart from Whitebeard and Ace are Mr. 11, Bellamy, the priests minus Gedatsu, and Nero. And those Kicking Claw Squad morons.

I think Zoro killed one of the Meowban brothers… and Kuro had that one guy hypnotized to pretend to be him that was executed. (that was flashback) And possibly some of the Whisky Peak group depending on translation.

But I can't think of anyone since Skypeia other than Nero.

And sure Nero was shigganed and then thrown out into the open sea during the middle of a huge storm, but hell, in OP I wouldn't totally write that off. He didn't appear in the "where are they now" coverstories tho, so we can assume him dead I guess.

Superbear 22

@Crossword:

As far as I'm concerned the only present-day deaths in One Piece that have stuck apart from Whitebeard and Ace are Mr. 11, Bellamy, the priests minus Gedatsu, and Nero. And those Kicking Claw Squad morons.

He's dead? I though Doflamingo just made him kill his first-mate.

Maromi

rip monet never 4get

I am willing to face the consquences if I am wrong, though, so I'm in!

Nycprodigy

Seriously? 74 for not dead? Guys, face it. This is the New World. People gon' die out hea. I'm in the "She kicked the bucket" camp.

Galaxy 9000

@Crossword:

As far as I'm concerned the only present-day deaths in One Piece that have stuck apart from Whitebeard and Ace are Mr. 11, Bellamy, the priests minus Gedatsu, and Nero. And those Kicking Claw Squad morons.

I don't think Bellamy is dead actually. Doflamingo told him to "choose his destiny" or something before he left, which presumably means he just left him really injured.

Superbear 22

@Nycprodigy:

Seriously? 74 for not dead? Guys, face it. This is the New World. People gon' die out hea. I'm in the "She kicked the bucket" camp.

Nukes…...............

Nycprodigy

@Galaxy:

Oda would never pull a Kishi.

and hopefully not a Tori.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

Robby gave some nice points and examples... I can let surviving a bomb explosion inches from your chest slide (I'm looking at you Pell). But Monet got stabbed straight through the heart. If she survives this then I don't know. I think it'd have a greater affect and add to Dofla's rage if he saw one of his subordinates dead. He seems to be like an Anti-Luffy in how he does some things, though he still would be upset about this for sure.

Crossword

@Nycprodigy:

Seriously? 74 for not dead? Guys, face it. This is the New World. People gon' die out hea. I'm in the "She kicked the bucket" camp.

''This is the New World'' means squat to me after Zoro said that they can't take things lightly anymore and then spent a chapter sitting around because his adversary was supposedly so far beneath him to be worth bothering.

Robby

@Nycprodigy:

I can let surviving a bomb explosion inches from your chest slide (I'm looking at you Pell).

We didn't see Pell next to the bomb. The idea that he was still holding the bomb when it went off is just the audience's dramatic tension and storytelling sacrifice instincts going off filling in that blank.

We saw a dot in the sky vanish from sight, and then an explosion. There is absolutely nothing to indicate Pell was actually still holding the bomb when it exploded. He easily could have tossed it further into the sky away from himself at the last second. (Obviously he took SOME of the force of the blast and was knocked a ways away… but there is nothing visually showing he was actually at the center of the blast.)

But Monet got stabbed straight through the heart.

Through the heart, or just against the square of blood surrounding the heart? Ceaser's not exactly in great shape himself, we don't see the length of the spike before it goes in, and the camera angle doesn't show an actual full blown impalement. Looks like its just brushing against the top to me.

http://www.mangapanda.com/one-piece/694/14

Considering just the shock of having theirs squeezed earlier was enough to incapacitate and knock out Law and Smoker, it wouldn't need to be a fatal stabbing to knock out an already wounded Monet.

(And checking again, we don't see an explosion envelop Vergo either. See him smiling, then the scene cuts away, and we're told there's an explosion. Nothing showing him in it. Not that an explosion has EVER been effective in OP…)

Donquixote Doflamingo

Not dead, for sure.

Robby

Here. I cleaned up the actual "heart stabbing" by taking away some of the excess shading.

In the first panel, there's still a lot of blood square between the heart and the spike. The heart isn't being hit.

In the second panel, you can see the distorted shadow of the spike through the blood cube. (Distorted like an object underwater) if it actually hit her heart, that silhouette wouldn't be there, it would just be embedded. Then look at the angle of Ceaser's hand. (I added a couple defining lines to make it more clear.) Rather than being directly above and stabbing downward, in both panels its stabbing at more of a 45 degree angle.

It missed entirely, and at most, grazed the side. You can see the spike on the edge of the heart even in the actual drawing.

Nex 0

The first post list has been updated, let me know if I've missed anyone.

Also, is everyone okay with using these images as punishment:
[hide]
[/hide]
Losers can choose which to place in their sig, because both are fantastic.

Rumeye

@RobbyBevard:

Through the heart, or just against the square of blood surrounding the heart? Ceaser's not exactly in great shape himself, we don't see the length of the spike before it goes in, and the camera angle doesn't show an actual full blown impalement. Looks like its just brushing against the top to me.
http://www.mangapanda.com/one-piece/694/14

Actually if you look closely you will notice that the spike had deeply penetrated her heart, in third panel you can see the ice spike inside the cube but not really in a clear image, because Oda was careful and smart enough to draw that panel without messing that when an object penetrates water it fractions and looks like it was broken.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refraction

UPDATE> Your next post clears it up, my bad.

Galaxy 9000

@RobbyBevard:

Not that an explosion has EVER been effective in OP…)

Hiluluk.

Gah. That image is making me second guess myself now, but I'm still gonna stick with my original vote due to the collapse.

Robby

@Rumeye:

Actually if you look closely you will notice that the spike had deeply penetrated her heart, in third panel you can see the ice spike inside the cube but not really in a clear image, because Oda was careful and smart enough to draw that panel without messing that when an object penetrates water it fractions and looks like it was broken.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refraction

Yeah. He missed. We can still see the spike.

Crossword

@RobbyBevard:

Here. I cleaned up the actual "heart stabbing" by taking away some of the excess shading.

http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/9594/onepiece3780225.jpg

In the first panel, there's still a lot of blood square between the heart and the spike. The heart isn't being hit.

In the second panel, you can see the distorted shadow of the spike through the blood cube. (Distorted like an object underwater) if it actually hit her heart, that silhouette wouldn't be there, it would just be embedded. Then look at the angle of Ceaser's hand. (I added a couple defining lines to make it more clear.) Rather than being directly above and stabbing downward, in both panels its stabbing at more of a 45 degree angle.

It missed entirely, and at most, grazed the side. You can see the spike on the edge of the heart even in the actual drawing.

Actually looking at the panel itself it looks like the icicle is clearly penetrating her heart. That grazing ''spike'' looks more like running blood.

Nycprodigy

@RobbyBevard:

We didn't see Pell next to the bomb. The idea that he was still holding the bomb when it went off is just the audience's dramatic tension and storytelling sacrifice instincts going off filling in that blank.

We saw a dot in the sky vanish from sight, and then an explosion. There is absolutely nothing to indicate Pell was actually still holding the bomb when it exploded. He easily could have tossed it further into the sky away from himself at the last second. (Obviously he took SOME of the force of the blast and was knocked a ways away… but there is nothing visually showing he was actually at the center of the blast.)

Through the heart, or just against the square of blood surrounding the heart? Ceaser's not exactly in great shape himself, we don't see the length of the spike before it goes in, and the camera angle doesn't show an actual full blown impalement. Looks like its just brushing against the top to me.

http://www.mangapanda.com/one-piece/694/14

Considering just the shock of having theirs squeezed earlier was enough to incapacitate and knock out Law and Smoker, it wouldn't need to be a fatal stabbing to knock out an already wounded Monet.

(And checking again, we don't see an explosion envelop Vergo either. See him smiling, then the scene cuts away, and we're told there's an explosion. Nothing showing him in it. Not that an explosion has EVER been effective in OP…)

I can definitely agree that Vergo isn't dead. Oda wouldn't introduce a vice admiral that sides with a shichibukai and their business that we know so little of and beat the newly reintroduced Smoker, just to kill him off.

Monet, not so sure. She was smiling before her death in hopes that DD will become Pirate King. So going by what you said, she should stay dead. She didn't "die" smiling at the moment of stabbing because she was clearly surprised that she was attacked in the heart and bleeding. She was prepared to die though, only failed to push the button.

Robby

@Nycprodigy:

She was smiling before her death in hopes that DD will become Pirate King. So going by what you said, she should stay dead. She didn't "die" smiling at the moment of stabbing because she was clearly surprised that she was attacked in the heart and bleeding. She was prepared to die though, only failed to push the button.

She was smiling because she was going to push the button and succeed at one final task. It only counts IF YOUR AMBITIONS COME TRUE. She needed to press the button and blow up all her enemies for her sacrifice to count. Thats what needed to happen for her death to stick.

Her final desire DIDN'T happen, so she doesn't die. She's fine. That's just how Oda works.

Similar instance, if Luffy has actually rescued Ace, Bon Kurei might just have stayed dead with his sacrifice having paid off. But once that sacrifice didn't have the desired effect, the slim chance of him staying dead bottomed out to no chance.

@Galaxy:

Hiluluk.

Illness+poison mushrooms+dream passing speech+ready to die.

The explosion didn't kill him, it just made his death more dramatic.

StrawHatJedi

I vote dead…..because I want to bet on Oda doing the right thing story wise. A stab straight through the heart should definitely kill her. It shows the harshness of the New World. Doflamingo is too brutal to save her...and I don't really see how there would be enough time.

Miss Saturday

.. are you people seriously making diagrams of how and why it only "grazed" the heart? Christ.

I should know better, but I'm gonna say she's dead. I want things to change; prove them wrong, Oda.

evip

Avatar and signature for the loser team :
Avatar:

!
Signature:
!

Needs more humiliation :sideways:

Galaxy 9000

That avatar is a bit extreme.

evip

Ok,how about this.The boys will love it.

!

Or just someone making funny panel with this on Paint:
http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z232/Hukkan/OnePiece-217-11.jpg

superspecialyugi

Put me down for dead.

Drake

@evip:

Avatar and signature for the loser team :
Avatar:

! http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs11/i/2006/259/d/f/Pell_and_Chaka_by_Mipeltaja.jpg
Signature:
! http://i.imgur.com/lbfVS.png

Needs more humiliation :sideways:

Densuke

@RobbyBevard:

Here. I cleaned up the actual "heart stabbing" by taking away some of the excess shading.

In the first panel, there's still a lot of blood square between the heart and the spike. The heart isn't being hit.

In the second panel, you can see the distorted shadow of the spike through the blood cube. (Distorted like an object underwater) if it actually hit her heart, that silhouette wouldn't be there, it would just be embedded. Then look at the angle of Ceaser's hand. (I added a couple defining lines to make it more clear.) Rather than being directly above and stabbing downward, in both panels its stabbing at more of a 45 degree angle.

It missed entirely, and at most, grazed the side. You can see the spike on the edge of the heart even in the actual drawing.

Damn, I'll give you credit for the time it took to do that. It really is a good argument/evidence to back it up.
On the other hand, Law's ability seems gel-like (for lack of a better word), and it seems like it could just be one of those cases of the spike being magnified by what box made out of.
It may hold no ground to what you're saying, just thought I'd mention it.

Drake

@RobbyBevard:

Here. I cleaned up the actual "heart stabbing" by taking away some of the excess shading.

http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/9594/onepiece3780225.jpg

In the first panel, there's still a lot of blood square between the heart and the spike. The heart isn't being hit.

In the second panel, you can see the distorted shadow of the spike through the blood cube. (Distorted like an object underwater) if it actually hit her heart, that silhouette wouldn't be there, it would just be embedded. Then look at the angle of Ceaser's hand. (I added a couple defining lines to make it more clear.) Rather than being directly above and stabbing downward, in both panels its stabbing at more of a 45 degree angle.

It missed entirely, and at most, grazed the side. You can see the spike on the edge of the heart even in the actual drawing.

http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/7715/heartbs.jpg
http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/2185/stabo.jpg

Couldn't it be argued that the distorted ice sickle image is just blood?

minor_runes

@RobbyBevard:

Here. I cleaned up the actual "heart stabbing" by taking away some of the excess shading.

http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/9594/onepiece3780225.jpg

In the first panel, there's still a lot of blood square between the heart and the spike. The heart isn't being hit.

In the second panel, you can see the distorted shadow of the spike through the blood cube. (Distorted like an object underwater) if it actually hit her heart, that silhouette wouldn't be there, it would just be embedded. Then look at the angle of Ceaser's hand. (I added a couple defining lines to make it more clear.) Rather than being directly above and stabbing downward, in both panels its stabbing at more of a 45 degree angle.

It missed entirely, and at most, grazed the side. You can see the spike on the edge of the heart even in the actual drawing.

http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/7715/heartbs.jpg
http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/2185/stabo.jpg

I wouldn't look too deeply into it, considering as a drawn image it can have inaccuracies, and convey differently from intended.
As far as angle of the hand, the whole image is at low angle, look at the upper plane of the heart-cube.
Heck, i remember some people arguing that the cubes were hearts encased in ice when we first saw Smoker's because you could see the heart through the flesh.

FelRes

@evip:

Avatar and signature for the loser team :
Avatar:

! [qimg]http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs11/i/2006/259/d/f/Pell_and_Chaka_by_Mipeltaja.jpg[/qimg]
Signature:
! [qimg]http://i.imgur.com/lbfVS.png[/qimg]

Needs more humiliation :sideways:

Oh god, I ran out of breath laughing at this.

Foxy The Silver Fox

LMAO, the losing team is going to scare away a lot of potential members who are going to see these avatars.

Arcadia080

I've always wanted an avatar but never got around to it.
That girl is NOT dead. Her cold as ice evil heart is destroyed. She's going to wake up with a brand new transplanted heart from one of the kids that will die. That Mocha girl is going to die and Monet is getting her heart. She's then going to join the crew to live the life that Mocha never got.

Densuke

@evip:

Ok,how about this.The boys will love it.

!

I will gladly sport that avatar. At least for a while.

1PceXperience

@Arcadia080:

I've always wanted an avatar but never got around to it.
That girl is NOT dead. Her cold as ice evil heart is destroyed. She's going to wake up with a brand new transplanted heart from one of the kids that will die. That Mocha girl is going to die and Monet is getting her heart. She's then going to join the crew to live the life that Mocha never got.

I'm surprised that you believe Monet won't die, but Mocha will.

Waffles

Fuck it. I'm going for the underdog pick here. Add me in this Nex cause I'm betting:

! **DEAD!**