And how many British people treat Churchill as the second coming of Christ instead of a completely batshit insane fatass?
FDR is like a thousand times cooler than Churchill and the Brits just don't want to admit it lol.
And how many British people treat Churchill as the second coming of Christ instead of a completely batshit insane fatass?
FDR is like a thousand times cooler than Churchill and the Brits just don't want to admit it lol.
North Korea is F*ked
And how many British people treat Churchill as the second coming of Christ instead of a completely batshit insane fatass?
he is an icon, but not insane. But please do enlighten me.
@Monkey:
FDR is like a thousand times cooler than Churchill and the Brits just don't want to admit it lol.
I can't complement FDR Zeph, my step father's family being long-running Japanese Americans, suffered the Executive order 9066 in CA.
he is an icon, but not insane. But please do enlighten me.
He wanted to invade Russia. In 1945. With the help of German soldiers.
It's a Mussolini-tier scheme.
He wanted to invade Russia. In 1945. With the help of German soldiers.
It's a Mussolini-tier scheme.
To be fair Patton wanted to do the same thing, then again Patton was PUBLICLY batshit
Your guys' arguments are totaly invalid.
Because as I found out the communist party here had a movie made in 1973 to mock the liberation movement of 1968 (you know, the one crushed by armed invasion of five armies with many people dead ?), by making the main character that the "evil" reformist politicians wish to use for their own selfish ends, a talking hippo.
No, realy.
http://www.csfd.cz/film/8670-hroch/ The same director made another movie later saying that the people behind the 68 movement were corrupt taxi drivers.
And need I remind you that this was not the fault of just one man, no at this time all movie had to be approved by the Party. So this was committee approved.
@Cyan:
To be fair Patton wanted to do the same thing, then again Patton was PUBLICLY batshit
Patton wasn't voted greatest of all time by his people.
he is an icon, but not insane. But please do enlighten me.
Racist, imperialist. If it were for him you guys would never get to eat chicken bhuna. Just look at a few posts a page back or so.
So fuck Churchill.
I still wonder how NK can afford a nuclear program and its leaders extravagant living expenses. Shouldn't their regime die from their lack of effectiveness of their economic system like the soviet block ?
I still wonder how NK can afford a nuclear program and its leaders extravagant living expenses. Shouldn't their regime die from their lack of effectiveness of their economic system like the soviet block ?
The Soviet bloc didn't die of shitty economy, it died of political reform allowing people enough wiggle room + lack of fear to get rid of it.
When Gorbachev said he wouldn't support any intervention in the East Bloc countries? He killed their regimes. All those countries were too weak on their own, and they had zero legitamacy being as they were governments that had in the first place been set up and forced by the USSR. So they were swept out of power.
Romania did have the fear element, but Ceausescu's own military was filled with lots of people who were tired of him so the people there had strong allies (albeit questionable).
@cooldud_21:
Racist, imperialist. If it were for him you guys would never get to eat chicken bhuna. Just look at a few posts a page back or so.
So fuck Churchill.
none of us can sit back and act like any of the leaders were anything but ruthless in their attempt at winning the war. Each of them had impossible choices that resulted in great loss either way, it had to be done. Still despite the commands he gave he was still fighting for freedom. England could have joined Germany, and the US would have followed. Russia, Asia and the Middle East would be under our control through a long bloody war…but he didn't.
For me Churchill was the deciding factor on weather we as a world would continue a path of peace or oppression. He chose the right path....
It's pretty lengthy, but their is a big documentary about Churchill up on youtube that covers all his major actions, from Dresden to abandoning certain positions from France to Africa.
I think if it was anyone else in power we would have either joined Germany or lost the war.
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@cooldud_21:
So fuck Churchill.
you probably wouldn't even be alive if he didn't do the things he did. I know that's pretty sad to say, but he really did have the worlds interest at heart. Sadly it was decisions built on logic and not emotion.
none of us can sit back and act like any of the leaders were anything but ruthless in their attempt at winning the war. Each of them had impossible choices that resulted in great loss either way, it had to be done. Still despite the commands he gave he was still fighting for freedom. England could have joined Germany, and the US would have followed. Russia, Asia and the Middle East would be under our control through a long bloody war…but he didn't.
For me Churchill was the deciding factor on weather we as a world would continue a path of peace or oppression. He chose the right path....
It's pretty lengthy, but their is a big documentary about Churchill up on youtube that covers all his major actions, from Dresden to abandoning certain positions from France to Africa.
I think if it was anyone else in power we would have either joined Germany or lost the war.
Hahaha. Churchill had no choice but to stand up to Germany. He would have been sacked as PM in less than a day if he had done anything remotely close to joining Germany. That's how democracies work.
Read up on his record in both the wars. He always, without fail, put the soldiers from the colonies in the line of fire. Who was on the front lines at Gallipoli? Australians and New Zealanders. Who was on the front lines at El Alamien? Australians, New Zealanders and Indians. And who threw away their lives in the futile Dieppe Raid? Canadians.
And this is not even bringing into the argument his views on Indian independence. There hasn't been a greater exponent of "manifest destiny", save perhaps Cecil Rhodes.
@Smudger:
you probably wouldn't even be alive if he didn't do the things he did. I know that's pretty sad to say, but he really did have the worlds interest at heart. Sadly it was decisions built on logic and not emotion.
Oh I definitely would've been alive. And were it not for Churchill's ouster shortly after the war, I would have been disenfranchised in the land of my birth.
Churchill on the 1943 Bengal famine: "why isn't Gandhi dead yet?"
Lol he had a wicked sense of humor.
All fair and valid reasoning and corporate PR could do with being brought down a peg or two.
War on Public Relations!
Anyway, in all seriousness, when you only get this sort of media, assuming your not starving, you probably don't know to question it and assume its gospel.
The more insulated and isolated the people the less likely they will rise up. They obviously know they can send this and the public will swallow it (obviously for internal consumption) or they wouldn't go quite so over the top.
The other videos by the same account holder were similarly interesting.
Weee, North Korea has declared the armistice invalid, looks like war is starting. Even though this isn't the first time they've said the armistice was invalid, their actions lately make it seem like they'll actually try something.
Weee, North Korea has declared the armistice invalid, looks like war is starting. Even though this isn't the first time they've said the armistice was invalid, their actions lately make it seem like they'll actually try something.
What's more disgusting is how dennis rodman is just frekin milking the situation. Douchebag.
Seriousness aside, considering how SK is with Japan, I could see the next headline being "Prototype gundams have been loaned to South Korea for the ineviti–-nevermind South Korea just crushed North korea in a blitzkreig victory."
Lol he had a wicked sense of humor.
Smudge wishes his country had ever produced anything remotely close to Gandhi.
Churchill on Israeli-Palestinian relations: "Well, an inferior race is naturally conquered by a superior one."
Still despite the commands he gave he was still fighting for freedom. England could have joined Germany, and the US would have followed. Russia, Asia and the Middle East would be under our control through a long bloody war…but he didn't.
lol no this would never have happened.
I also like how you ambiguosly phrase conquering the world as "well we could have but we didn't!".
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It's funny watching Brits discover the world hates them about as much if not more than the world hates the US lol.
"B-b-but...shakespeare! beatles! dickens! Our empire was good I thought! Didn't everyone like it? No no nooo! I-f-f this is true that means we're just.....an un-self aware version of Americans!!! AGHHHHHHH"
@Monkey:
lol no this would never have happened.
I also like how you ambiguosly phrase conquering the world as "well we could have but we didn't!".–- Update From New Post Merge ---
It's funny watching Brits discover the world hates them about as much if not more than the world hates the US lol.
"B-b-but…shakespeare! beatles! dickens! Our empire was good I thought! Didn't everyone like it? No no nooo! I-f-f this is true that means we're just.....an un-self aware version of Americans!!! AGHHHHHHH"
Care to back that up ? o_O
@No:
Care to back that up ? o_O
Well not ALL the world lol. Obviously the Czech republic don't mind them considering you've never ever been involved with eachother, but they had the largest empire in history and left behind a ton of angry people lol.
I mean shit, India alone is SEVENTEEN PERCENT OF THE WORLD. That's not even counting the full Raj with Pakistan and Bangladesh!
"Fuck britain" is still even a small part of Irish American identity lol. And Chrissie can back up my account of british colonial legacy XD.
@No:
Care to back that up ? o_O
Hell, two (Scotland and half each of Wales and Northern Ireland) of the constituent countries of the UK hate the English.
Even we up here hate the ludicrous British sense of superiority over the rest of Europe and the world that is a sad remnant of the past eras. Oi, the empire is long gone. Wake up and start doing something that helps others as well as yourselves instead of whining about integration and the blemishes on your bloated national pride.
It's not like any of those historic heroes were ever as great as they were cracked up to be. From what i heard Ghandi was a dick in his own right as well
Our national hero is or atleast was the guy who crashed the economy, depleated the population, and just refused to stand down at any of the countless opportunities.
But he sure did give those ruskies what for eh. Come at us 1700's Russia. We've got more farmhands than you can slaughter. We'll fight bravely to the last Finn!
@wolfwoof:
From what i heard Ghandi was a dick in his own right as well
Eh? Apart from right-wing Hindu nationalists, I don't know of anyone who thinks Gandhi was a dick. Care to elaborate?
@cooldud_21:
Eh? Apart from right-wing Hindu nationalists, I don't know of anyone who thinks Gandhi was a dick. Care to elaborate?
Mostly that he was pretty damn racist toward Africans. Not that i know enough about Gandhi to know if it's true or false.
Not that being racist was in anyway uncommon back in those days. Just thought of it when it was mentioned that Churchill was racist
One of you history dudes could prehaps weigh in and tell me if i'm just slandering an innocent dude here.
I'm Irish, shitting on the British is in my bones
@cooldud_21:
Eh? Apart from right-wing Hindu nationalists, I don't know of anyone who thinks Gandhi was a dick. Care to elaborate?
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2521/did-mahatma-gandhi-sleep-with-virgins
http://www.gandhism.net/hisownwords.php
“Hitler killed five million Jews. It is the greatest crime of our time. But the Jews should have offered themselves to the butcher’s knife. They should have thrown themselves into the sea from cliffs.” ~ George Orwell’s “Reflections on Gandhi,” Partisan Review, Jan. 1949
As to whether the Jews should have committed “collective sucide” by offering themselves to Hitler: “Yes, that would have been heroism.” ~ George Orwell’s “Reflections on Gandhi,” Partisan Review, Jan. 1949
@wolfwoof:
Mostly that he was pretty damn racist toward Africans. Not that i know enough about Gandhi to know if it's true or false.
Not that being racist was in anyway uncommon back in those days. Just thought of it when it was mentioned that Churchill was racist
One of you history dudes could prehaps weigh in and tell me if i'm just slandering an innocent dude here.
Never heard anything about that.
For what it counts MLK saw him as an idol.
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@OnePunch:
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2521/did-mahatma-gandhi-sleep-with-virgins
http://www.gandhism.net/hisownwords.php
“Hitler killed five million Jews. It is the greatest crime of our time. But the Jews should have offered themselves to the butcher’s knife. They should have thrown themselves into the sea from cliffs.” ~ George Orwell’s “Reflections on Gandhi,” Partisan Review, Jan. 1949
As to whether the Jews should have committed “collective sucide” by offering themselves to Hitler: “Yes, that would have been heroism.” ~ George Orwell’s “Reflections on Gandhi,” Partisan Review, Jan. 1949
If you think that's racism you have zero idea about the context.
The idea of a guy from India in the first half of the 20th century being an anti-semite in the first place should have let you know how silly it was.
@wolfwoof:
Mostly that he was pretty damn racist toward Africans. Not that i know enough about Gandhi to know if it's true or false.
Not that being racist was in anyway uncommon back in those days. Just thought of it when it was mentioned that Churchill was racist
One of you history dudes could prehaps weigh in and tell me if i'm just slandering an innocent dude here.
You are not, mostly.
Here is a nice write-up of his attitude towards black people.
http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/aah/singh_12_3.htm
And here is an overwhelmingly biased one.
http://www.trinicenter.com/WorldNews/ghandi4.htm
To be perfectly honest, these words sound more from an ignorant person than from a person who is hateful.
To equate racism to casteism (as the second link does, and the first one touches lightly upon) is not a fair comparison at all. They basically equate people from the lower caste with black people, calling them the blacks of India. They also say that the Indian caste system was based on colour. Both are not true. This person is from the lowest caste in Indian society. And this is from the highest. You tell me the difference in their colour.
Second, Gandhi did a lot to alleviate the grievances of the lowest castes in Hindu society. Whatever his views might have been, he actively participated in rehabilitation of the lower castes, he called them Harijans (meaning people of God) and there are examples of people from the highest castes and people from the lowest sharing the same jobs in his ashram (the Hindu caste system is job based, the lowest castes used to be assigned menial jobs, tanning, scavenging, and so on).
Third, both the articles call his participation in the British forces in the Bambatha Rebellion as an example of his anti-Black outlook. The Indians that Gandhi volunteered (including himself) were all part of the medical corps, acting as stretcher bearers for the British forces. He later condemned the war as a man-hunt.
On the larger scale of things, Gandhi's actions in South Africa should be viewed from the prism of a young man who is trying to protect his own, forming his political world-view along the way. He fought for the rights of the Indians there first. And he tried various strategies to negotiate with the British, appeasement being one of them. He finally saw that civil disobedience was the best way forward. He became much more inclusive later in his life, as a result of his experiences, and that is the image one should carry of him.
One more point for context, Indian society is incredibly racist towards black people. Immigrants (mainly students and businessmen) from Africa are frequently discriminated against in India. This has nothing to do with the Hindu caste system. When Gandhi went to South Africa, he went there with this mindset. He had a lifetime to change this view, and so he did. In fact, there are black people in South Africa who defend him. I quote the following from a news article I came across:
Khulekani Ntshangase, a spokesman for the ANC Youth League, defended Gandhi, saying the critics missed the bigger picture of his immense contribution to the liberation struggle.
Gandhi's offending comments were made early in his life when he was influenced by Indians working on the sugar plantations and did not get on with the black people of modern-day KwaZulu-Natal province, said Mr Ntshangase.
"Later he got more enlightened."
Gandhi wasn't yet Gandhi when he was in South Africa basically. He was a young dude still dressing all British and stuff.
@OnePunch:
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2521/did-mahatma-gandhi-sleep-with-virgins
This is a very controversial topic. But as long as the women were consenting, and he had the blessing of his wife, is this him being a dick?
“Hitler killed five million Jews. It is the greatest crime of our time. But the Jews should have offered themselves to the butcher’s knife. They should have thrown themselves into the sea from cliffs.” ~ George Orwell’s “Reflections on Gandhi,” Partisan Review, Jan. 1949
As to whether the Jews should have committed “collective sucide” by offering themselves to Hitler: “Yes, that would have been heroism.” ~ George Orwell’s “Reflections on Gandhi,” Partisan Review, Jan. 1949
Context dude. What this refers to is that the symbolism of civil disobedience and passive resistance. He is obviously not being literal.
@Cyan:
I'm Irish, shitting on the British is in my bones
♫♫♫♫♫
Thanks for clearing that up. It's funny how these little strands of information just get stuck in there
I can literally not remember where i had heard it from. Thought that is true of most anything i know. The library of my mind is lacking in structure
As for the UK you'd think that people stuck on an isolated island should've learned to get along by now. Especially since they're all heavy drinkers lol
The only cool thing about the British Empire is how people from wildly different places and cultures can bond over almost identical experiences.
Buy ye a round fer' tha IRA, EOKA, and Saya San, if only we wer' near as peaceable as Gandhi, but you know how she goes.
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@wolfwoof:
Thanks for clearing that up. It's funny how these little strands of information just get stuck in there
I can literally not remember where i had heard it from. Thought that is true of most anything i know. The library of my mind is lacking in structure
As for the UK you'd think that people stuck on an isolated island should've learned to get along by now. Especially since they're all heavy drinkers lol
I'm going to laugh for like literally decades if Scotland really does vote to leave lol.
@wolfwoof:
As for the UK you'd think that people stuck on an isolated island should've learned to get along by now. Especially since they're all heavy drinkers lol
They all hate the English. The Celts get along mostly.
So it's the whisky drinkers versus the rest. Seems reasonable enough.
As long as the whisky keeps flowing Scotland can go do it's thing
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And the Scotirish once again sigh at being reduced to a fermented grain mash
@wolfwoof:
So it's the whisky drinkers versus the rest. Seems reasonable enough.
As long as the whisky keeps flowing Scotland can go do it's thing
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And the Scotirish once again sigh at being reduced to a fermented grain mash
"Bushmills?? That's Protestant whiskey."
In a fair compromise they could all start drinking imported Bourbon. The south would rise again
@wolfwoof:
In a fair compromise they could all start drinking imported Bourbon. The south would rise again
The South is busy being flooded with immigrants and white collar northerners who are going to destroy their unified regional identity like as happened to my WASP ancestors who used to run the Northeast lol.
Though I think no one is yet going to shitholes like Arkansas and Mississippi, I think they'll turn into large human museums or something.
Oh like a Mexican couldn't throw together a decent Bourbon mr prejudiced
My in head view of the New York money bags crowd still looks like the dining room at the titanic lol.
Guess i need to get with the times
@Monkey:
"Bushmills?? That's Protestant whiskey."
Nothing substantial to add, just obligated to quote this.
@Monkey:
The idea of a guy from India in the first half of the 20th century being an anti-semite in the first place should have let you know how silly it was.
Didn't say it was racism.
Just ridiculous pacifism.
"We would do well to reflect on Gandhi's remedy for the Holocaust: he believed that the Jews should have committed mass suicide, because this "would have aroused the world and the people of Germany to Hitler's violence." We might wonder what a world full of pacifists would have done once it had grown "aroused"–commit suicide as well? There seems no question that if all the good people in the world adopted Gandhi's ethics, the thugs would inherit the earth." - Sam Harris.
@Monkey:
♫♫♫♫♫
♫♫♫♫♫
lollll, just noticed Winston Churchill organized the Black and Tans lollllll, FUCK that guy hahaha.
Me great grandmam had to hide in hay piles from those fucks.
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@OnePunch:
Didn't say it was racism.
Just ridiculous pacifism.
"We would do well to reflect on Gandhi's remedy for the Holocaust: he believed that the Jews should have committed mass suicide, because this "would have aroused the world and the people of Germany to Hitler's violence." We might wonder what a world full of pacifists would have done once it had grown "aroused"–commit suicide as well? There seems no question that if all the good people in the world adopted Gandhi's ethics, the thugs would inherit the earth." - Sam Harris.
I think it's kind of pedantic to smirk at that WACKY Gandhi when he did in fact lead a successful independence movement for like the biggest colony ever.
@Monkey:
Though I think no one is yet going to shitholes like Arkansas and Mississippi, I think they'll turn into large human museums or something.
Except for Fayetteville, thanks to the NWA Center for Equality.
Except for Fayetteville, thanks to the NWA Center for Equality.
You're from Los Angeles so I'm going to take that to mean the NWA I want it to.
@Monkey:
You're from Los Angeles so I'm going to take that to mean the NWA I want it to.
@Monkey:
he did in fact lead a successful independence movement for like the biggest colony ever.
Still that doesn't make whatever argument he made valid by default.
Perhaps many statements here still need clarifications.
http://www.gandhism.net/hisownwords.php