Chapter 720: Convict Gladiators

andre

I don't think so Bellamy. The theory is based on lots of things.
Cause Crocs a girls answers everything right?. How he knew about Plutons location, relationship with Whitebeard, why he wants to be Pirate King and so forth. People don't consider everything else just "uh, Ivankov said this so, he's a girl" why not delve deeper even at the risk of sounding weird. I'm not saying my theory is rock solid but I've yet to hear anything specific about it that is wrong. It's just speculation, that's what a theory is.
And my previous posts have less to do with my theory then with all the Bellamy's in this place.

Theories should be based on a basic hypothesis and backed up with evidence. Your theory develops from evidence, but isn't backed by any, much like many in AP. For instance:

1. That Crocodile was a member of the Revolutionary Army before becoming a pirate, the crux of your entire theory. This isn't supported by anything, and is instead pretty easily disproven.
a. Crocodile was inspired to become a pirate while watching Gol D Roger's execution. This is 22 years before the story now, and likely before the Revolutionary army even existed, at least to the capacity it does now because Dragon was 10 years or so off from being seen as a threat.
b. Crocodile was a New World pirate for the next 22 years, trying to become pirate king.
c. Iva would have mentioned that Croc was a revolutionary. It's hardly a "weakness" and he brought it up regarding everyone else who had been a revolutionary.
2. Some other things wrong with your theory.

It doesn't actually explain why he wanted to become Pirate King, and only actually establishes him as a character after he's already hardened like today, and before he's hardened and a supposed revolutionary.
Whitebeard and Crocodile do not in any way have a Zeff/Sanji relationship. Croc legitimately tried to kill Whitebeard; Sanji and Zeff are not like that at all. Their relationship is completely one of enemies. Croc wanted revenge on him. Where do you see similarities?

Your theory just isn't comprehensive on so many levels. It attempts to explain something, but in ways that come out of no where. I'm not even necessarily saying that all of this is completely wrong. That Croc doesn't have dealings with Revolutionaries, or that he wasn't helped by Whitebeard and decided to fight for your said reason, but you haven't given any reason to actually think about it as a rational explanation. You haven't really made a theory, just a guess.

Edit: One last thing; quit using the term Bellamy's. It's immature and getting annoying.

knceng

@funkfreed:

I wasn't talking about my specific theory but the theories of everyone in this forum in general. My theory was supposed to be 'out there' the point I was trying to make was that Croc theories aren't set in stone. One person thinks something, everyone thinks it.

I guess what I'm saying is people aren't going further which cool new ideas, they're just getting scared to say anything cause people will say. "It's not confirmed", or "not enough evidence". The funny thing is there is nothing in my theory, or most anybody else's theory, that can be disproven, at least not that I know of.

lol don't you see, this forum is turning into the bar in Jaya. Laughed at every which way.
Well remember "Peoples dreams (and their theories lol) don't ever end"

I'm sure it's just your ego that denied you to put your theories in this thread.
There's a lot of groundless theories in that thread, and it has a lot of views.

@andre:

I think his point is supposed to be that Crocodile operates with such a sense of confidence, it's hard to imagine him/her/IhavenoideawhatIvameant ever asking Iva to do anything for him like that as he currently is. Like if it were the other way around and women were the bees knees in the One Piece world, it's be hard to imagine the character we know, right now, asking for a sex change. Though this ignores that we have no idea anything about him all those years ago when whatever happened, and no reason to think that.

Crocodile as a woman :ninja:

!
It's kinda interesting that Oda put Iva in cover stories in the volume where he draw a woman smoking cigar…

Rosebullet Teacher

All of this and the Spade guy in Doflamingo's family still hasn't been revealed yet, so much excellence to come.

FuS

Bigivel

@parklane21:

This theory alone is "ok". But this theory and put in some "Iva changed Croc's gender" and it will change to something (dunno if for better or worse). You see there's coexistence there, don't have to dutifully reject each other.

Though there is not that much evidence shown whether Croc's really want to be the pirate king, he did fight with Whitebeard. Challenging him means he did have the desire, but if he's just on the defensive (like Ace's case) that's a little vague.

It was shown in the cover stories that Crocodile dream is being the Pirate King!
Chapter 408

Roronoa Zacho

Barto said this chap he followed the SHs through newspaper, but we all know how the WG displays the SHs' actions more evil than they really are. @EL they wrote that the SHs destroyed EL not a Buster Call. Barto could be disappointed bout Luffy's true (good)character which was displayed more evil in the Newspaper.

MonkeyDBrolly

@Roronoa:

Barto said this chap he followed the SHs through newspaper, but we all know how the WG displays the SHs' actions more evil than they really are. @EL they wrote that the SHs destroyed EL not a Buster Call. Barto could be disappointed bout Luffy's true (good)character which was displayed more evil in the Newspaper.

One does not simply dislikes Luffy after he/she gets to know him… :P And Oda made us a hardcore "fanboy" for a reason... :P

Roronoa Zacho

Oda also brings up the dark side of being a gladiator. "If you win, you're free, if you lose you're dead!" What's wrong if Croc was a Girl in the past? Now that is real sexism. He could have been a tough badass girl as a kid, but was told he could only become PK if he was a man. Just what was needed to make Kuina feelin upset bout her gender? Just a few words from her dad.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@MonkeyDBrolly:

One does not simply dislikes Luffy after he/she gets to know him… :P And Oda made us a hardcore "fanboy" for a reason... :P

This arc just shows us that if you are Luffy's enemy you better don't put him into an Arena with a load of badasses. In the end all those badasses are his allies.

knceng

@Roronoa:

Oda also brings up the dark side of being a gladiator. "If you win, you're free, if you lose you're dead!" What's wrong if Croc was a Girl in the past? Now that is real sexism. He could have been a tough badass girl as a kid, but was told he could only become PK if he was a man. Just what was needed to make Kuina feelin upset bout her gender? Just a few words from her dad.

I think that's just DD's rule.

Supernova122

@Monkey:

lol again, Dofla is not some careful planner guy.
I don't know if you guys ever watched him in action prior to this arc.
He's one of those type of villains you see that are gleeful about chaos regardless of who it effects. He definitely has an air of flippancy about him toward his position, talking like he just changes positions and criminal schemes due to boredom.
Add on to that he's dangerously adaptive. Law pulls his Warlord position out from under him? Dofla just flips it around completely.

You keep going on about this, but I don't really see how Doflamingo wouldn't care about whatever chaos is happening if it is to his peril. Like we've already seen angry Doflamingo at Punk hazard, when he stormed over, attacked Smoker and declared he'd kill Law and Luffy after.

Whatever his super-duper Dressrosa masterplan is, we have little idea. There's obviously a lot to it - setting Violet after Sanji, baiting Luffy to the Colosseum, sending Bellamy after Luffy, sending Jora after Momo (and to disable the Sunny) - and it seems he sent Momo to PH in the first place, plus baiting Kinemon with Kanjuro. There's probably more …

Sure what's happened so far isn't detrimental to Doflamingo. But the idea he basically won't give a shit when things go wrong and his subordinates get beaten is hard to accept. He's going to get veeery angry sometime soon.

And I don't see this arc sprawling out for ages. Sure, Doffy first shwoed up ages back. This whole arc may have been in teh works for ages, but we've already had 2 volumes setting things up. It looks like we're getting close to some sort of 'big final battle'. And somewhere in that we'll learn a load more about Doflamingo's past with generous flashbacks. I guess at least 4 volumes more, but this is not going to be the ridiculous length of the CP9 arc, say.

Panda Bear

@Tangaroa:

It wasn't until reading this chapter that I got what Oda was doing with Batolomeo and Cavendish, but now I totally love it.
Cavendish is a pretty boy who carries around a book of wanted posters to stab, the ultimate hater.
Barto is deliberately ugly and has a collection of wanted posters (probably now in his mysterious suitcase) he admires, the ultimate fanboy.

They're book-ends and it really works even at this point. I have no idea if they're going to fight or… team-up but it's going to be fun.

This is actually a really cool observation, I think! I suppose it's obvious enough, maybe, but I hadn't seen it said before, and for some reason it just hadn't struck me. Yes, though, the two of them really do create a wonderful dichotomy, and I can totally imagine that it was intentional on Oda's part. Just another example of excellent writing on his part. Things like this are a good part of what helps make One Piece so great, and people sharing observations about them are what makes going through these chapter thread worthwhile.

Coby

The only thing I think has been setup is Bellamy vs Bartolomeo rematch. I've only had one person agree with me on that. The other thing that was revealed but somehow everyone managed to skip over was the fact that Bartolomeo is a fucking crazy guy who used to be a MAFIA boss and has an irrational love forw strawhat and cuts out people's tongues for petty reasons, That scene made it abundantly clear that He was a psycho and probably a bad guy which may lead to a clash with Luffy and definitely not be a strawhat which I keep seeing places, do you really think that Luffy would let a guy abandon his crew to join him whose only excuse is being a fanboy.

MDL

Extremely enjoyable chapter.
Bart's character twist is hilarious.

@square:

If One Piece joins, I'm dropping Rebecca.

Nice one. Fucking sigged.

desa

I really don't see how having been a woman is weakness. Tashigi is way enough for the Kuina complex and I really cannot see how it helps the story or improve the character.

CCC

@desa:

I really don't see how having been a woman is weakness. Tashigi is way enough for the Kuina complex and I really cannot see how it helps the story or improve the character.

Maybe that'll be the point. Like, the reason that Croc goes to Iva and asks to be changed back is that he realized that his true strength comes from his ability, fighting prowess, and cunning, and has nothing to do with what's between his legs. He could be the one to finally beat the Kuina complex.

mrsword

@desa:

I really don't see how having been a woman is weakness. Tashigi is way enough for the Kuina complex and I really cannot see how it helps the story or improve the character.

Kuina obviously never heard of Big mom :ninja:

Panda Bear

@CCC:

Maybe that'll be the point. Like, the reason that Croc goes to Iva and asks to be changed back is that he realized that his true strength comes from his ability, fighting prowess, and cunning, and has nothing to do with what's between his legs. He could be the one to finally beat the Kuina complex.

Except, if he has that epiphany, then for that very same reason, why would he even care to turn back, if it doesn't make a difference?

The obvious answer to that, I suppose, being that he identifies as a woman, and only ever had himself (herself, whatever you want) changed because he felt it was necessary. That works alright, but that would imply that he dislikes being physically male, and currently regards it as a sort of unfortunate necessity. Frankly, I can think of absolutely nothing whatsoever so far that has at all indicated that he might be uncomfortable with being in his current state, so that sort of theory seems rather spun from whole cloth to me.

CCC

Well I still think there's more than enough evidence to suggest the theory in the first place (as MK detailed a few pages back). So it'll just be a matter of exactly how/why the secret is going to come out. If not Croc asking to be changed back, then maybe him crossing some sort of line in Iva's presence and Iva getting pissed enough to expose him.

BloodyTears

So I've read in the spoiler thread that the next 2 chapters will be out on Tuesday instead of Wednesday… Is that true?

desa

@CCC:

Maybe that'll be the point. Like, the reason that Croc goes to Iva and asks to be changed back is that he realized that his true strength comes from his ability, fighting prowess, and cunning, and has nothing to do with what's between his legs. He could be the one to finally beat the Kuina complex.

Always thought that the Kuina complex would be beat by Tashigi.
And can having been a woman be called a weakness?
And seriously think that such an important part of Croc background would have been reveal by that point.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

And note that I don't consider it impossible. Just don't really see the point. And I'm seriously trying to get how that's a weakness.

Callaghan

On page 3 luffy spits on his hands and blocks cavendish's sword, this scene reminded me of dragonball, when goku blocks trunks's sword.
Along with the tournament thing it could be another quote from db

About bartolomeo, he is indeed a huge fan of luffy, he developped a massive adoration for the guy, so I'm wondering what if Luffy doesn't live up to bartolomeo expectation, or what if he'll be rejected?
Bartolomeo has almost killed a guy in this very chapter, he's brutal and ruthless, of course there's some good about him but it'll be enough? I don't think luffy can befriend someone like him. He's funny and caring but, yes, in a twisted way.
That said I expect that all his adoration towards luffy will turn into hate and that will make of him a terrible enemy.

CCC

It's not/shouldn't be a weakness. Certainly wouldn't be for Croc at this point. But the Kuina incident and the Monet debacle showed us that enough people in the OP world consider it to be a weakness, to the extent that female characters clearly take it to heart.

TonyTheChopper

After this chapter i actually think Barto is a good character!

Lorce

I dont think Croc needs to necessarily have been a woman turned into a man by Iva… it could also be that Croc wanted to do some spying or something back in his rookie days and asked for a favour of Iva to turn him into a woman so that the enemy wont recpgnise him, then he got turned back once he was finished with business... That seems more like the scheming Sir to me

Monkey D. Destiny

Off topic but…
http://io9.com/5039477/the-rules-of-quick-and-dirty-worldbuilding
http://io9.com/7-deadly-sins-of-worldbuilding-998817537
Does anyone want to input if One Piece follows or breaks these rules or sins of worldbuilding?

Whackadoodle

@Callaghan:

About bartolomeo, he is indeed a huge fan of luffy, he developped a massive adoration for the guy, so I'm wondering what if Luffy doesn't live up to bartolomeo expectation, or what if he'll be rejected? […] That said I expect that all his adoration towards luffy will turn into hate and that will make of him a terrible enemy.

Consider what Bart's impetus for liking Luffy was, though. It wasn't about Luffy killing people or anything. It was that, when Luffy was about to die on the execution platform of Gol D Roger, he smiled and shouted that he was going to be the Pirate King. And then was saved by divine providence. It's his never-say-die attitude and the fact that he is ordained by the heavens that are what drew Bart in originally, not perceived bloodlust. Sure, he may have built up an idea about what Luffy is like from what he's read in the papers and such, but that wasn't why he believes in him.

If anything, I think that if Luffy criticizes his bloodlust, he'll try to change to be more like Luffy. It's also more fitting with the overall (lighthearted) nature of the series, and the themes of the series. Luffy's ability to turn enemies into allies has been remarked upon, and he seems to gather everyone to him; why on Earth would the one exception to this otherwise incredibly powerful ability be someone who was favorably disposed originally, and who wasn't even an outright villain?

desa

Can someone tell me why Luffy end up smash in the ground after Caven told him to let go? Was it Chinjao who cause it or Cavendish?

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@CCC:

It's not/shouldn't be a weakness. Certainly wouldn't be for Croc at this point. But the Kuina incident and the Monet debacle showed us that enough people in the OP world consider it to be a weakness, to the extent that female characters clearly take it to heart.

Now I see what you mean and I can agree with you.

Piitan

@desa:

Can someone tell me why Luffy end up smash in the ground after Caven told him to let go? Was it Chinjao who cause it or Cavendish?

Chinjao wanted to thank Luffy, but when he lowered his head he hit the ground, smashing it.

Katzztar

@desa:

Can someone tell me why Luffy end up smash in the ground after Caven told him to let go? Was it Chinjao who cause it or Cavendish?
.

I could be wrong but I got the impression that either Luffy (to stop Cavendish's advance with the sword) or Cavendish (to make Luffy let go of sword) twisted to the side and fell.

Swordsman LUCY

@desa:

Can someone tell me why Luffy end up smash in the ground after Caven told him to let go? Was it Chinjao who cause it or Cavendish?

Your referring to this?
http://img.mangastream.com/cdn/manga/51/2041/07.png
Seems to me Cavedish is also falling back a little. So it's apparently a "they both hit each other" thing.

Hanauta

wonder what will happen after cabbage learns that barto is luffy's fan:)

about crocodile, i think her real name = Croco

labmate

@CCC:

It's not/shouldn't be a weakness. Certainly wouldn't be for Croc at this point. But the Kuina incident and the Monet debacle showed us that enough people in the OP world consider it to be a weakness, to the extent that female characters clearly take it to heart.

I see what you did there.

TheCrystalShip

@Hanauta:

about crocodile, i think her real name = Croco

Um no, his real name is Crocodile.

… I'm kind of regretting that we brought this theory up now.

Phoenix Zoan

Croc's woman name was Allygator.

Shadowgreed

Was Crocodile even shown or did his name come up in this chapter because it seems like I missed something

HaxeyeMihawk

@Phoenix:

Croc's woman name was Allygator.

Lol this is so cheesy yet I can't stop laughing.

funkfreed

@parklane21:

This theory alone is "ok". But this theory and put in some "Iva changed Croc's gender" and it will change to something (dunno if for better or worse). You see there's coexistence there, don't have to dutifully reject each other.

Though there is not that much evidence shown whether Croc's really want to be the pirate king, he did fight with Whitebeard. Challenging him means he did have the desire, but if he's just on the defensive (like Ace's case) that's a little vague.

Chapter 408 cover story Crocs dream is to be Pirate King

@andre:

Theories should be based on a basic hypothesis and backed up with evidence. Your theory develops from evidence, but isn't backed by any, much like many in AP. For instance:

1. That Crocodile was a member of the Revolutionary Army before becoming a pirate, the crux of your entire theory. This isn't supported by anything, and is instead pretty easily disproven.
a. Crocodile was inspired to become a pirate while watching Gol D Roger's execution. This is 22 years before the story now, and likely before the Revolutionary army even existed, at least to the capacity it does now because Dragon was 10 years or so off from being seen as a threat.
b. Crocodile was a New World pirate for the next 22 years, trying to become pirate king.
c. Iva would have mentioned that Croc was a revolutionary. It's hardly a "weakness" and he brought it up regarding everyone else who had been a revolutionary.
2. Some other things wrong with your theory.

It doesn't actually explain why he wanted to become Pirate King, and only actually establishes him as a character after he's already hardened like today, and before he's hardened and a supposed revolutionary.

Whitebeard and Crocodile do not in any way have a Zeff/Sanji relationship. Croc legitimately tried to kill Whitebeard; Sanji and Zeff are not like that at all. Their relationship is completely one of enemies. Croc wanted revenge on him. Where do you see similarities?

Your theory just isn't comprehensive on so many levels. It attempts to explain something, but in ways that come out of no where. I'm not even necessarily saying that all of this is completely wrong. That Croc doesn't have dealings with Revolutionaries, or that he wasn't helped by Whitebeard and decided to fight for your said reason, but you haven't given any reason to actually think about it as a rational explanation. You haven't really made a theory, just a guess.

Edit: One last thing; quit using the term Bellamy's. It's immature and getting annoying.

1 How can that be disproven, Iva said he knew him from way back
a. I never said it was at his execution, it was probabaly way before that
b Yes, no ones denying that. The stuff I said happened at a very early age
c Maybe so but it's up to Croc to decide if its a weakness or not
2

I put that his dream is to be Pirate King in his very youth while he was like Luffy
at Marineford, it was Croc who basically told Whitebeard to stop being weak and suck it up. People don't think of scene like that just "Iva and Croc"

Its my theory, no one has to like it but I posted it to get feedback which I knew would be mostly hate, no regrets. Thanks for the input. As to the Bellamy thing, no need to get offended. I was trying to make a point by using his name, that people don't really go deep (or crazy lol) enough in theory creating. And just a pet peeve, don't call me immature, not in this place

Jackermeister

Speaking of Crocodile: Why is he adressed as "Sir", even after losing his Shichibukai status?

Or is that just his surname?

Hanauta

@TheCrystalShip:

Um no, his real name is Crocodile.

… I'm kind of regretting that we brought this theory up now.

dunno about that, i had this theory so long ago. (years ago, On AC)

for me it has like high chance its true:)

Johnny B. Decent

@Jackermeister:

Speaking of Crocodile: Why is he adressed as "Sir", even after losing his Shichibukai status?

Or is that just his surname?

As he is the only one of this Shichibukai to be called "Sir", I wonder if it was more of a Arabastian thing since he was a big hero there.

That said, it is strange he's the only (human) animal-themed Shichibukai not to have a regular name alongside his animal one.

Buggy D. Clown

LOL I just noticed, is Luffy really spitting on his hands to stop his sword after he sees Cavendish take the sword out? hhaha LUCY! maybe he used CoO & knew he would attack like that

andre

@funkfreed:

1 How can that be disproven, Iva said he knew him from way back

a. I never said it was at his execution, it was probabaly way before that

b Yes, no ones denying that. The stuff I said happened at a very early age

c Maybe so but it's up to Croc to decide if its a weakness or not

2

I put that his dream is to be Pirate King in his very youth while he was like Luffy

at Marineford, it was Croc who basically told Whitebeard to stop being weak and suck it up. People don't think of scene like that just "Iva and Croc"

Its my theory, no one has to like it but I posted it to get feedback which I knew would be mostly hate, no regrets. Thanks for the input. As to the Bellamy thing, no need to get offended. I was trying to make a point by using his name, that people don't really go deep (or crazy lol) enough in theory creating. And just a pet peeve, don't call me immature, not in this place

Dude, going deep isn't going crazy. Going deep is using your "evidence" in ways that other people may not have, carefully. It's not just making up things and calling it a theory. I suggest you go through this section of the forum and look at some of the theories that have whole threads of discussion and the type of evidence they use. And I didn't call you immature, I said you were doing something immature, which you were.

Densuke

@Jackermeister:

Speaking of Crocodile: Why is he adressed as "Sir", even after losing his Shichibukai status?

Or is that just his surname?

He's forced that name on himself to escape his former womanly self.

Buggy D. Clown

the real Bartolomeo!

!

ForumNoob

@Hanauta:

wonder what will happen after cabbage learns that barto is luffy's fan:)

about crocodile, i think her real name = Croco

Croco D. Ile:ninja:

LightningAce

@Jackermeister:

Speaking of Crocodile: Why is he adressed as "Sir", even after losing his Shichibukai status?

Or is that just his surname?

Because he's that awesome

Kyoji Kagami

@ForumNoob:

Croco D. Ile:ninja:

Pretty much like Caven D. Ish.

grunk

@Jackermeister:

Speaking of Crocodile: Why is he adressed as "Sir", even after losing his Shichibukai status?

Or is that just his surname?

Sir.. nobility… revolutionary knows his "secret"...

SABO CONFIRMED!!

funkfreed

@andre:

Dude, going deep isn't going crazy. Going deep is using your "evidence" in ways that other people may not have, carefully. It's not just making up things and calling it a theory. I suggest you go through this section of the forum and look at some of the theories that have whole threads of discussion and the type of evidence they use. And I didn't call you immature, I said you were doing something immature, which you were.

I don't think it's all crazy, clearly I have reasons as why I think what I think, minimum though it might be. I already gave you evidence (like the Croc/Whitebeard thing) as to why I think it COULD be this. But hey we'll just have to agree to disagree.

desa

@Swordsman:

Your referring to this?
http://img.mangastream.com/cdn/manga/51/2041/07.png
Seems to me Cavedish is also falling back a little. So it's apparently a "they both hit each other" thing.

Yeah that's the panel. Luffy end up with his face hitting the ground and Cavendish seems about to fall. From the previous panel to this one I can't what's suppose to have happen.

Mostnamed

@desa:

Yeah that's the panel. Luffy end up with his face hitting the ground and Cavendish seems about to fall. From the previous panel to this one I can't what's suppose to have happen.

I think luffy tried to take the sword from cavendish . but neither of them let go.

OH AND I THINK BART WANTS TO 1v1 luffy and get hit with luffys special attack. that would make him so happy lol. "Hit me more luffy-sama"