Im sorry, but I hate when people do this. You are not Oda. It's Oda's story. If Donflamingo gets taken down this arc, it isn't a mistake.
Oda is the one god of storytelling, blessed father, infalliable soul, I shall put no authors before you. Hosannah.
tldr: Your post is the mistake.
@Monkey:
Oda is the one god of storytelling, blessed father, infalliable soul, I shall put no authors before you. Hosannah.
tldr: Your post is the mistake.
Just because the a portion of the audience thinks its a mistake doesn't make it a mistake. Otherwise my personal feelings on Bellamy would mean that Oda made a mistake.
In the end, Oda is the author. He is crafting this story, if he feels that now is the right time for Doflamingo to be defeated, then it's the right time, and it's not a mistake no matter your personal opinion. He obviously has his reasons for wanting it done this way, and all will make sense eventually.
Most of storytelling's iconic moments are "mistakes." Things not playing out how they're supposed to. This most recent of episode of Breaking Bad for example, from the minute it opened it was making storytelling "mistakes" it was doing things that didn't make sense, yet it will probably go down in history as the best episode of television ever.
The Red Wedding in A Storm of Swords, totally a storytelling mistake, it made no sense. It's one of the most iconic scenes ever penned.
Omar's last scene in The Wire; definitely a storytelling mistake. Still pretty much perfect.
In the end, it's about placing your trust in the author, because they're the one who decides how the story is told. And whatever way they choose to tell it, that is the right way, because it is their story. Make no mistake, that doesn't make every story a good story, or even a decent one, but it means it's not wrong.
I had to sit on this for a few seconds before realizing I think Nex is trying to talk about people deviating from patterns and then calling it a "mistake" because it's not playing by the rules or something to him.
And he's trying to romanticise it
@Monkey:
Oda is the one god of storytelling, blessed father, infalliable soul, I shall put no authors before you. Hosannah.
tldr: Your post is the mistake.
Oda is the god of one piece, homie. I believe it was yourself who said this isn't a spectator sport. No art is wrong, genius, I figured you were smart enough to know that. I hope someone crushes you in public the way you abuse people in this forum.
This is all getting a little too hippie dippy for my taste
Oda is the god of one piece, homie. I believe it was yourself who said this isn't a spectator sport. No art is wrong, genius, I figured you were smart enough to know that. I hope someone crushes you in public the way you abuse people in this forum.
1. You severely misunderstood the thing I said that you're trying to quote.
2. Art is pointless without reflection, criticism, and discussion.
3. Storytelling is structured and something as simple as One Piece definitely can make problems for itself. I mean I'm sure you wouldn't deny the existence of plot holes right lol. No probably you would.
4. I'm engaged to a member of the forum, and had a drink in Reykjavik with another. My public AP interactions are not what random white noise posters hope.
@Monkey:
1. You severely misunderstood the thing I said that you're trying to quote.
2. Art is pointless without reflection, criticism, and discussion.
3. Storytelling is structured and something as simple as One Piece definitely can make problems for itself. I mean I'm sure you wouldn't deny the existence of plot holes right lol. No probably you would.
4. I'm engaged to a member of the forum, and had a drink in Reykjavik with another. My public AP interactions are not what random white noise posters hope.
ahem internet professor champ in the house.
What exactly did i misunderstand as stated in your first point?
@Monkey:
2. Art is pointless without reflection, criticism, and discussion.
Just to be clear, I 100% agree with this. Still, in our criticism, we are not allowed to accuse the artist of making a mistake. Because they painted the painting they wanted to. They wrote the story they wanted to. They have presented to us they're art. And by bringing ourselves to it, we have altered it. Our personal experiences, our way of thinking, and our own personal art all reflects in our criticism.
And since we have changed so much of the art by just observing it, we cannot judge if, in its original state, any mistakes were made. It is impossible.
And really, that's the flowery crux of my argument.
@Holy:
I had to sit on this for a few seconds before realizing I think Nex is trying to talk about people deviating from patterns and then calling it a "mistake" because it's not playing by the rules or something to him.
And he's trying to romanticise it
No, there are basic rules of storytelling that you can simply learn from reading books. Nothing is being romanticized here.
Hell, everyone knows the most basic rule of storytelling: Exposition –> Rising Action --> Climax --> Falling Action --> Denouement
Then there's the classic rule of conflict.
And character change.
Then there's the basic rules by genre, though all have a shared base in standard story archetypes.
This is what I mean by rules. I'm not talking about some existential concept. I'm talking about the basic rules of writing you learn in 6th grade English.
The whole issue here is I think the term "mistake." Which I was only using because that was the base of the argument. Champ said that since it's Oda's story, he doesn't make mistakes. Monkey King responded in his standard way, and I went from there.
I was never addressing Brennen's original topic, which is why I did not quote him.
But in the end, from a technical standpoint, breaking the rules is a "mistake."
Here's the simplest way I can explain what I mean: when a writer ignores the rules of grammar, as most tend to do from time to time, it is technically a mistake. But to the author, for the story, it is correct.
It's not a 1:1 transfer, but that should work as an explanation.
The way you use the word mistake seems super weird and akward to me
Granted i'm not a naitive speaker but to say that one makes a mistake when one deviates from what's traditional just sounds off
@Nex:
The whole issue here is I think the term "mistake."
basically
but you know that we know (I haven't even seen anymore what you or zephos or brennen are talking about though, but I know they're fine there) basic writing junk from an art school level and we don't need to go over that. I just really don't like what you're implying with that word and the way you were applying it.
Like it… honestly sounds really naive? Or it at least gives off the impression of a real square
i'm not trying to pick a fight here though and i can barely wrap my head around today so i'm not trying to crit you or start a big multi quote debate, just hope you get what i'm saying
@Holy:
basically
but you know that we know (I haven't even seen anymore what you or zephos or brennen are talking about though, but I know they're fine there) basic writing junk from an art school level and we don't need to go over that. I just really don't like what you're implying with that word and the way you were applying it.
Like it… honestly sounds really naive? Or it at least gives off the impression of someone who really does think in really structured levels.
i'm not trying to pick a fight here though and i can barely wrap my head around today so i'm not trying to crit you or start a big debate, just hope you get what i'm saying
Once again, I' not the one who started with that term. I just used it after champ. And I threw it in quotes.
Basically when I've been saying "mistake" I've been referring to any rule breaking a writer does. As I explained in other posts. Because technically, when you're not following the rules, you're doing it wrong and making a mistake.
It's not my ideal terminology. Not even one I would naturally use, I just used it because it was already prompted in the argument I jumped in on. It's stupid and things have gotten nasty because of it, but it is what it is.
But yeah, I get what you're saying, and I do agree. My use of it has essentially become a case of "you made your bed now lie in it." I'm not trying to start an argument here either.
Also wouldn't guidelines be a better word than rules
@wolfwoof:
Also wouldn't guidelines be a better word than rules
Technically yes, but they're always presented as rules. At least every English class I took laid them out as: these are the rules of writing! You must follow these rules! The dedicated prose classes weren't as strict. But the screenplay classes had a hard-on for the rules. Especially if you want to sell screenplays. And it's kind of true, if you want to have any commercial success as a screenwriter you have to follow the basic rules of storytelling.
But yeah, guidelines that are heavily recommended.
Also, I'm not saying these rules are bad. Quite the opposite, they exist for a reason, they are the blueprint of every classic story.
@Nex:
if you want to have any commercial success as a screenwriter you have to follow the basic rules of storytelling.
Or buy a copy of Save the Cat and bullshit your way to success
Can't we all just go dunno lol, and like call off this silly heated clash? I'm sure however or whenever Doffy goes down, Oda will make it great.
@Holy:
Or buy a copy of Save the Cat and bullshit your way to success
Ha! I had a professor say the exact same thing once. (Though it essentially does teach you the rules of storytelling in a convoluted way.)
God that book is terrible.
Honestly, when I think "Rules of Storytelling" I think "Story" by Robert McKee. He pretty much lays it out wonderfully the "right" way to do things. He even shows what would be mistakes. "Save the Cat" is a wanna be version of "Story" by a hack who never actually wrote anything good.
This is why I have fallen out of love with the industry.
This is why I have fallen out of love with the industry.
Yeah, I get that. I'm honestly having much more fun as a Key Grip and Lighting Technician for Sony than I have in the stupid process of trying to sell scripts. It's also why I've been turning back to prose as of late, even though I'm not too great with it. (After being in a screenplay mindset for 4 years though, that'll happen.)
What is Save the Cat
I just posted that because I'm sick of people developing a complex thinking they are Oda. And all i said was if Donflamingo was taken down this arc, it WOULDN'T be a mistake. Because it wouldn't be. I never said anything about art being arbitrary, meaningless content that didn't deserve reflection. I simply stated that it wouldn't be a mistake. A person might think it's a mistake, but at the end of the day, that's their opinion. And that opinion won't affect the story. Because as some people find hard to believe, they aren't Oda. It's funny, I think people on these forums believe they could tell Oda's story better than he can, but we don't have all the details. We have no idea honestly what Donflamingo's exact role in the story is until the story is over. You can't reflect and judge a piece of art in the making, that's like listening to a song and then judging an album based off of it. This is the nature of the comic. It's gripping until it's finished because of that aspect.
And I agree with you 100%. I just want that to be clear.
I'm of the opinion that forecasting the story too much leads to disappointment when things don't play out the way you expected them to, and you should just enjoy the ride. Not that I'm averse to making predictions, just that investing so much time into arguing points about the hypothetical future of the series seems really unfun to me
What is Save the Cat
it's a sbook about scriptwriting and everyone has been aping it for over half a decade and it's dumb. It is probably better described as "that bad guy gets captured by the dude and they talk in prison but it is totally part of the bad dudes plan and he gets out"
capitalism sucks and industries are for tools and i'm cool as hell IMHO.
What is Save the Cat
http://www.amazon.com/Save-Last-Book-Screenwriting-Youll/dp/1932907009/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1379559026&sr=8-1&keywords=Save+the+Cat The most overrated book on screenwriting ever. All it does it "teach" you the basic rules of writing and the basic writing process.
Snyder is lauded for his index card/cork board style of plotting. Which isn't even anything new.
All he ever wrote was "Stop! Or My Mom Will Shoot" and "Blank Check." Such marks of quality and talent there.
His main success came from his spec scripts. Which isn't that great of praise.
Yes, I do feel bad being rude to him considering he passed away four years ago.
Stop! Or My Sense of Integrity Will Leave the Business
amirite
the idea of a theorist not penning anything good reminds me of Asterios Polyp and how the main character was a an impressive genius whose blueprints and grasp of architecture were lauded, but he had never crafted a single building
one of my best friends has a phd and that's basically him minus the genius. i think its cool to be mlike that. we talk a lot and i'm pretty used to dense theory and it's fun, don't get me wrong I actually really like criticism
Asterios is a cool character and it's a great comic, but Stop! Or My Mom Will Shoot is a real work of art and you should watch it instead
@Holy:
it's a sbook about scriptwriting and everyone has been aping it for over half a decade and it's dumb. It is probably better described as "that bad guy gets captured by the dude and they talk in prison but it is totally part of the bad dudes plan and he gets out"
capitalism sucks and industries are for tools and i'm cool as hell IMHO.
Which is what will happen with Doffy
Is that the thread ii'm in, i thought i was in how was your dday hahaha
sorry
I am really dreading going back to college.
Looking at how the thread has developed in the last pages, I ought to ask: is this thread (too) already gone FUBAR?
@nex:
The Red Wedding eliminated the entirety of the Northern Army. With it, the Starks, the only "good" house, who weren't even fighting to conquer the Kingdom, where all but eliminated. One was already being corrupted, and the others taken out of the country. So yeah, it kind of killed all the good guys.
1. There are no hard and fast rules of storytelling when it comes to the plot and characters, that's up to the writer. Rules exist only for clarity of presenting the information. (Like including foreshadowing, or varying the pace to keep the audience's interest, or the guideline of try to tell things in sequential order, for instance)
2. In SoF&I, the AUDIENCE knew full well pretty much the entire family was alive. And that it plays to the STORY for the characters to think the entire family was dead and react accordingly
! Rob is the only "main" character that died during the Red Wedding, and he NEVER had a POV chapter. So, he wasn't even a main character, he just had some plot importance! He was second fiddle to Cat's story! His army? Plot, but not important to the overall story which is much bigger than a single person or army, much like an actual history.
! Aside from that, Daeynarys, Tyrion, Jon, Bran, Sansa, Arya, Theon, Davos, Jaimie, Samwell, and Brienne were all alive and kicking, and they were definately all main characters, and aside from Jaimie, they'd all be considered Good. Plus about a dozen minor POV characters. on the side. Red wedding despite its shock value, didn't kill anyone important, (which is obvious in hindsight, again, Rob never had a POV chapter) it just set other story points in motion.
! Martin is telling the history of Westeros, not the Tale of The Noble Starks. You want squeeky clean heroes that always win and never die in a "go fight the cosmic evil" typical fantasy, you go to Wheel of Time. Completely different story goals there.
(Also, judging by your reaction to the Wire… It seems you feel like a character dying suddenly makes for bad storytelling, regardless of what actions might have led to it, or what the follow up reprecussions might be?)
And I never said you can't question it. I've said time and time again that you can! All I'm saying is that just because you don't agree with it can you accuse Oda of having made a mistake with the story. If he is telling the story he wants to tell the way he wants to tell it, then it's all correct. That doesn't make it perfect, that doesn't make him perfect. I feel like I've said this blatantly a million times by now, but you keep not getting it.
Oda makes mistakes all the time. Thats why he has corrections in the tanks.
Also, the sheer nature of an ongoing serial (in any medium) that puts out chapters before the entire story is done denies you the ability to properly edit, so you''re stuck with whatever you put out, regardless of if it is what you really want by the time you're done, or what you know would be better for the overall story with hindsight. (Added scenes, deleted scenes, more setup for a thing, less setup for a thing, more time for a certain character that ended up being important, less time on a throwaway, etc.)
I'm sure Oda has chapters that are his favorites. I'm sure there's also chapters he hates that just didn't come out like expected, or didn't pay off how he wanted.
So, "bad writing" doesn't equal "mistake"!?
Hmmmm…
So just a thought. But since Oda's editor does often have him make changes in the story
Changes that Oda sometimes even admits were for the better
Doesn't that throw the Oda only does what he wants how he wants notion out of the window
@wolfwoof:
So just a thought. But since Oda's editor does often have him make changes in the story
Changes that Oda sometimes even admits were for the better
Wait, really? I missed this part. I thought, being one of their best authors, Oda was given complete freedom over his work.
Eh, fuck it.
Yeah it's not like Oda can't refuse if he really really thinks his idea is better. It's not like if he refuses, his editor beats him up or something. Although that would be funny
"Hey, I think X is a really bad idea. Do Y instead."
"Whaaaaat? No way!!"
"…"
"..."
"PUT 'EM UP!"
pow pow pew pow BAM
IIRC Toriyama had made some funny omakes with his alter ego and the editor about the dead line, probably in Dr. Slump. That's what the editors are for after all, to advise, help and nudge them in the right direction for the plot.
Yeah it's not like Oda can't refuse if he really really thinks his idea is better. It's not like if he refuses, his editor beats him up or something. Although that would be funny
"Hey, I think X is a really bad idea. Do Y instead."
"Whaaaaat? No way!!"
"…"
"..."
"PUT 'EM UP!"
pow pow pew pow BAM
Yeah, and what WolfWoof is saying is that Oda wouldn't be like
"Zehahahaha, this my world, bitch!!"
IIRC Toriyama had made some funny omakes with his alter ego and the editor about the dead line, probably in Dr. Slump. That's what the editors are for after all, to advise, help and nudge them in the right direction for the plot.
Well, yeah, I knew that. But from wolf's words it sounded more like the editor forced Oda to change something (btw, what were the changes in Shabondy the editor wanted?)
Eh, fuck it.
Well, yeah, I knew that. But from wolf's words it sounded more like the editor forced Oda to change something (btw, what were the changes in Shabondy the editor wanted?)
I think the Supernovas weren't part of the arc until an editor suggested that the place needed more characters, and then Oda decided to introduce them there.
Anyone feel free to correct me.
You grabbed a post some hotheaded nobody made in a rash of random anger at people discussing a story.
Who do you think you're talking to? I'm not a nobody, I am somebody. There is nothing you can do to change that haha. Do you think I'm not a person attached to this account? I think that's a lot of the reason why so many people on this forum dislike you. Your weird, unnecessary god complex is bad for this community. You think because you make some theories on a one piece forum that you're hot shit?
I think you just believe you're really good at arguing. And it doesn't impress me or anyone else in real life. I don't think you're really smart or special. You stick with the same tactic of telling people their argument is invalid because you don't agree then you use mike some snide self elevating comment and move onto the next point. It isn't clever haha it's just annoying and I'm sure there are tons of posters who avoid threads you post in because they don't want to get their feelings hurt by some egotistical maniac on the internet.
And yeah man, I'll say it: you hurt my feelings. Just because a bunch of people here want to avoid conflict doesn't mean I do. You're a cyber bully who manages to suck the fun out of discussing One Piece. That's hard to do. And you know what I'm thinking…the only reason you haven't been banned is because you're engaged to another member who either has a position of power in Arlong Park, or who isn't so much of a total asshole and vouches for you behind your back saying things like, "it's just who he is," and trying to rationalize your disgustingly abusive behavior.
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Yeah, and what WolfWoof is saying is that Oda wouldn't be like
"Zehahahaha, this my world, bitch!!"
Didn't Oda state to his fans that he doesn't care about their input to the story??? Believe it or not, this is kind of his attitude towards One Piece.
Didn't Oda state to his fans that he doesn't care about their input to the story??? Believe it or not, this is kind of his attitude towards One Piece.
I don't know if he said that and I don't think it matters since his editors are there to give him their input on his story, and that's their job.
I don't know if he said that and I don't think it matters since his editors are there to give him their input on his story, and that's their job.
And editors only help refine and tune ideas to appeal to a bigger audience. At the end of the day no matter what the editors suggest, Oda is still the one drawing One Piece.
Yeah, that's what I said.
Yet Oda won't do anything that he doesn't personally feel would be good for the story by his own thinking. Therefore, the editors suggestions don't taint Oda's unquestioned authority regarding the development of One Piece. It isn't a team effort. I'd relate it more to a coach for a boxer. Although the coach may give the boxer ideas, he isn't in the ring with him.
Yet Oda won't do anything that he doesn't personally feel would be good for the story by his own thinking. Therefore, the editors suggestions don't taint Oda's unquestioned authority regarding the development of One Piece.
Did I make it sound like they're fighting over who's in control? They're a team. They work together. They help Oda find the best way to reach the destination.
edit:
It isn't a team effort. I'd relate it more to a coach for a boxer. Although the coach may give the boxer ideas, he isn't in the ring with him.
What? How is it not a team effort? Your example doesn't make sense. How is the COACH not part of the team? So can we say substitutes are not part of the team since they're not on the field?
Did I make it sound like they're fighting over who's in control? They're a team. They work together. They help Oda find the best way to reach the destination.
edit:
What? How is it not a team effort? Your example doesn't make sense. How is the COACH not part of the team? So can we say substitutes are not part of the team since they're not on the field?
Because the coach isn't the one doing the punching. simple dude…
Think of a boxing match as art. It has all the same elements. It has characters, it has a conflict and it has limits. This is art.
The art professor doesn't get credit for a masterpiece his student drew.
LOL.. if Oda didn't need any help from his editors, why would he told every one of them the moment they started working together about One Piece overall plot, plan, main secret and the ending?
Because the coach isn't the one doing the punching. simple dude…
Have you ever seen a boxing match or a boxing movie? Most of the boxer's moves depends on the coach's study of the opponent before and through the match. So, no, it's not that simple.
Think of a boxing match as art. It has all the same elements. It has characters, it has a conflict and it has limits. This is art.
The art professor doesn't get credit for a masterpiece his student drew.
Seriously? Well, that's bullshit, lol! You really don't know what you're talking about. We have legendary coaches going to the hall of fame in major sports, and we have you saying that nobody gives a shit about them. How does the art teacher not get credited when his student will probably be the first one to mention his teaching as one of the reasons for his masterpiece?
LOL.. if Oda didn't need any help from his editors, why would he told every one of them the moment they started working together about One Piece overall plot, plan, main secret and the ending?
Please don't do this. Who is it written by? Eiichiro Oda+ editors? Who gets credit for One Piece? Who is the author? I'm sorry, but your points make zero sense. Just because Oda bounces ideas off of his editors and accepts their input when he deems it worthy, doesn't make One Piece a team story. Quit while you're ahead.
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Have you ever seen a boxing match or a boxing movie? Most of the boxer's moves depends on the coach's study of the opponent before and through the match. So, no, it's not that simple.
Seriously? Well, that's bullshit, lol! You really don't know what you're talking about. We have legendary coaches going the hall of fame in major sports, and we have you saying that nobody gives a shit about them. How is the art teacher doesn't get credit when his student will probably be the first one to credit his teaching.?
You're mixing team and individual sports. Boxing isn't a team sport. Who exactly was Mike Tyson's coach? Did his coach get handed the belt, was his coach the greatest boxer of all time?
And your knowledge of boxing is limited at best. It does't matter but for the sake of this argument, just accept that the analogy is fair and move on with your life.
