I just used the ignore list for the first time ever….but for whom?
Chapter 588 "Sabo's Ocean" Discussion
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Host and Founder The One Piece Podcast The views expressed are solely my own.
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You can't be completely unaffected by everything you read.
All I know is that if someone posts something that negatively affects you…all ya gotta do is what this kitty does.
Nuff' said.
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While your around Aohige, I have a question for you. Is Dogura's dialect based off of any real dialect or is it just some form of Oda's made up provincial speech? I don't really have any access to native speakers of Japanese, so I'm afraid I'll always be bad in this area…
母しゃべる「ドッグチーズ」
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no OP this week i guess…... :sad:
well let's just hope we get some good chapters in other series
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Dead:
[hide]- Typical flashback death; compare Olvia, Yorki, Kuina, Tom, and to a lesser degree Hiruluk and Saul. Not only the ambiguity of their death, but also the development and situation for a few of them. While Sabo's lacks a final speech– which many of the others had to a degree-- I would say the farewell letter serves a similar purpose, giving closure to the incident for the readers and the characters.
- Track record; all of the deaths that have occurred in a flashback have been, up to this point, permanent.
- Parallel-blend of Zoro's flashback and Robin's flashback:
- In Zoro's flashback we have Kuina lamenting over being born a woman. After Zoro's tells her to STFU they make a promise with each other, with her dying basically the next day. Zoro had already claimed he would be the world's strongest swordsman prior to his promise with Kuina, but her death strengthens his resolve all the same. Similarly, Ace and Luffy made their promise with Sabo, who then resigned himself as a Noble only to also die shortly after. The same strengthened resolve would follow suit.
- In Robin's flashback we have character deaths that are personal to the character and readers, while also significant to the story as a whole, showing us the rotten core of the WG/Marines. Similarly, Sabo sacrifices his freedom so Luffy and Ace would be spared by his father and Bluejam. Then, later, Dadan states that "this world, this country" is what is responsible for Sabo's death, again giving the characters and the readers both personal loss and additional enmity for the WG/Marines (more specifically the World Nobles). The Buster Call on Ohara also being similar to the burning of the Grey Terminal.
- Impact; excluding the possibility of Luffy or Dragon saving an enslaved Sabo, I personally think Sabo's MIA status would hurt the impact of his original death. Especially given Ace would die thinking Sabo was dead and Luffy would go through all of this current drama thinking BOTH of his brothers were dead.
- Foreshadow; aside from Ace's tattoo potential, there is nothing to indicate Oda had Sabo planned out prior to the Marineford arc. Had Oda planned to include Sabo more in the future, I would like to believe he could have done a better job setting the character up beforehand. Typically Oda leaves little hints for that type of thing, like Rayleigh for example, but so far there is nothing to identify for Sabo.
[/hide]or Alive:
[hide]- Development; some would argue Sabo had more development than other characters. I agree and also disagree slightly, but won't get into it now. Point is, Oda certainly has the freedom to make more use of Sabo, should he plan to.
- Ambiguous death; neither pro nor con, given it is a flashback, but as mentioned it certainly allows Oda to do whatever he wants without yanking our chain.
- Plot threads; other flashback-related plot threads could keep the flashback going longer than we think, and/or tie back into a future Sabo. Obvious examples being the World Noble, the King, and Dragon. Sabo isn't required for any of this specifically, however.
I suggested in the spoiler thread (or here?) that it would make a nice twist of ironic fate to have Sabo become a slave for the World Nobles. We don't see him collared in the procession, but that's not a big deal. The important part is that in losing a brother (Ace), Luffy would gain a brother back (Sabo) once the next few arcs cover the slavery issue. Be it Dragon or Luffy that saves him, the end result would be pretty good I think. Any other circumstance outside of super-cliche amnesia would be a little too much for me given the 10 years of silence (no letter, nothing), but I'm not holding on too strongly to that opinion.[/hide]
^^ I wanted to summarize and aggregate some of my arguments now that the weekend is over and I have read all the arguments, so here it is. A bit rough, but whatever.
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So many breaks in this year again same as last year i just dont understand why so much and other mangaka dont take as much as Oda
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The letter was actually incredibly important. The letter alone represented a very strong bond in that Sabo was able to express how he felt in it. Through it he explained everything he needed to and since he had no idea the others thought he was dead, there was no need for him to contact them again.
We saw that post-Sabo Ace and Luffy were tight as hell but the crew who lived with Luffy 24/7 never knew or thought he had a brother which shows what little contact even they had.
Thus I don't find the lack of contact odd.
The war? And Luffy being a famous pirate with no contact? Yeah okay maybe. But again, Oda already knows how he wants to wrap that up so I'm not worried about it.
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He is probably going to be an admiral, yet look at how strong he was at what age when we met him.
This is a horrific point.
It's so terrible I think it just ruined my day.
I was in a great mood. The forecast called for rain and it's sunny and I went to work with a song in my heart.
But now, reading that, and knowing I actually enjoy the same series as someone with the reading comprehension of a salmon just caused me to vomit in my mouth a bit.
Coby declared it was his, "…dream to become a Marine.", in the same chapter we met him.
........IN A SERIES ABOUT REALIZING DREAMS.
Okay, so that meant he'd be a Marine.
Then we see Coby being personally trained by, holy shit, a Vice-Admiral.
Okay, so that meant he'd make huge leaps in strength.
THEN we later learn that Coby can perform a technique after a few months of training which would have seemed unlikely for a 'normal' individual to master in such a short span.
Okay, so he's growing in strength and technique at an exponential rate.
THEN right after that we soon learned that he wanted to be an Admiral.
....IN A SERIES ABOUT REALIZING DREAMS.
No, Oda never foreshadows potential.
You have essentially proven yourself wrong with your point in that Oda does show us exactly what he intends to do in the details.
Your ignorance is no fault of your own. You just lack experience and there isn't a critical reasoning bone in your body.
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While your around Aohige, I have a question for you. Is Dogura's dialect based off of any real dialect or is it just some form of Oda's made up provincial speech? I don't really have any access to native speakers of Japanese, so I'm afraid I'll always be bad in this area…
Sorry, I wasn't around.
I was posting on my lunch break, and scurried back to work after.No, his dialect isn't based on anything real, although it feels like mix of random accent with exaggerated country side hick accent.
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Let alone the fact that Coby now has Mantra or something.
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I didn't even want to go there you know. Just up to the Admiral point.
Because it's like…
How in the HELL can you use Coby as an example in an argument discussing whether Oda does or doesn't foreshadow potential it just-HEY WAIT!
We're still fighting robby!!!! You cheating whore!!!! sobs heaves sobs
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Sorry, I wasn't around.
I was posting on my lunch break, and scurried back to work after.No, his dialect isn't based on anything real, although it feels like mix of random accent with exaggerated country side hick accent.
Thank you as always Aohige! I can always count on you to help me with dialect woes. I love and hate all the different ways Japanese can be twisted.
For whatever reason Dogura's accent makes me not trust him. I don't know why. Maybe it's a mix of how he speaks and looks. A very shifty looking character.:ninja:
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- I think Sabo is the "narrator" of the One Piece story?
Psh! It's obviously Pandaman.
I wouldn't be so sure. :ninja:
You cross the S in "Sabo", to remove it, then put a mirror in front of the word, and what do you get?
"Sabo" => the "S" is crossed (we could make an X over it, for example) leaving "Abo" => use a mirror: "Abo | odA" => Resulting in "Oda"!!
Now back to the serious conversation:
The letter was actually incredibly important. The letter alone represented a very strong bond in that Sabo was able to express how he felt in it. Through it he explained everything he needed to and since he had no idea the others thought he was dead, there was no need for him to contact them again.
We saw that post-Sabo Ace and Luffy were tight as hell but the crew who lived with Luffy 24/7 never knew or thought he had a brother which shows what little contact even they had.
Thus I don't find the lack of contact odd.
The war? And Luffy being a famous pirate with no contact? Yeah okay maybe. But again, Oda already knows how he wants to wrap that up so I'm not worried about it.
What, even you coming with this argument?!
The letter may indicate that he said everything he had to say to his brothers till they meet again…
But after being shot by the Tenryuubito with a crowd on the beach watching it, how he could still think that there was no need to contact them again??
The information about him being shot, and the rumors about him being dead, was obviously fated to reach Ace and Luffy's ears eventually, Sabo would have to be kinda dumb to not know that (which he wasn't, he was very clever in fact), and he certainly wouldn't simply let his brothers think he died... He would at least have sent them another letter, to tell that he was fine.
And it isn't just the war, and Luffy becoming famous and yet no contact, it also includes 10 years with no contact, and Ace being famous for 3 years and no contact.
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Stuck on a relatively deserted NW island, with a broken log pose and/or ship fighting against enemies for the past 4 years….
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Amnesia would be the most convenient answer to this question. Sure, it sounds lame but Oda has a way of making simple solutions work just fine.
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What, even you coming with this argument?!
http://www.thegrandline.com/odaswitchint.htm
-So the dignity you carry as a boy’s comic author Oda-san, is it safe to say that was something you’d already set in stone from when you started One Piece?
Yeah I think so. Because I mean, I approached it thinking that since I’m drawing for a boys’ comic magazine, then it’s my job to make sure they enjoy what they’re reading. When you actually do become a professional you’ll start getting fan letters and other things and you’ll soon find that the overwhelming majority of them are from girls. Boys just aren’t the type to pick up a pen. (laughs) They don’t have things like stationary or stamps and they don’t think about going through the ‘grueling task’ of writing someone just to say, “That was cool.” Boys are a life form that enjoy something but won’t bother to tell you that they actually do.*
*lit. brushSo I learned that girls will flood you with their opinions and when I took at step back and looked at the world of manga, I realized that there are a lot of people out there that made me think, “This [author] is really just going along with the girls’ opinions.” And ultimately, if you’re considering those opinions as the ‘needs of the customer’ when you write the story, you’re just left with a girl’s manga. (laughs) It’s like, if you do that, you’re only writing to entertain girls, and that’s just wrong.
-And yet boys, who you see as most vital, won’t let you know what they think.
That’s right. And since that’s the case, I knew what I had to do was go back to my own memories, set my sights on the kinds of things I would enjoy if I was still a kid. It’s not like boys leave me without anything though; if your parents send you a Christmas Card* you’d send something back right? (laughs) So when they do send letters they’re exactly the kind of responses you’d expect from boys like, “I like the fights.”, or, “I like this attack.”, and as I read through them I think, “Ah, I thought they’d like that.”. The boys’ reactions are what I take very seriously, but I get a kick out of what the girls have to say too. You can almost hear their high-pitched screams of excitement through the letter. But if I let those opinions sway me then it’s more than just losing my place in a boy’s comic magazine, there’d be no value in my existence as a boy’s comic author.
*lit. New Year’s cardUh oh! Someone that actually reads a shit-ton of what the author says and relates it to his storytelling!
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Meh, I'm just gonna step on out there and say you are kinda being a dick, Greg. Just sayin'.
"Boys just aren’t the type to pick up a pen […] won't tell you what they think […] that's right" Uh oh! Someone that actually reads a shit-ton of what the author says and relates it to his storytelling!
This is a horrific point. It's so terrible I think it just ruined my day.
^^ That first quote is in response to Sabo writing a second letter in case news of his incident made its way to Ace and Luffy. Sabo, the guy who had a dream of writing a book about the world, had a panel dedicated to him holding a pen* and writing, the guy who just wrote a letter telling Ace (us) what he thinks. A horrific point indeed.
Logia, as any fruit, means fuck-all if you don't have a strong will and learn how to adapt it. You don't eat a Logia and become incredible.
Luffy couldn't harm <usopp with="" a="" logia="">, but…</usopp>
Welcome to Arlong Park. This is how we discuss shit.
Out of context (barely), this doesn't look good. In context (Ace getting a logia), it only gets worse.
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Meh, I'm just gonna step on out there and say you are kinda being a dick, Greg. Just sayin'.
I am being a dick.
I had to wake up to that shit and it put me in a terrible mood all day.
That first quote is in response to Sabo writing a second letter in case news of his incident made its way to Ace and Luffy. Sabo, the guy who had a dream of writing a book about the world, had a panel dedicated to him holding a pen* and writing, the guy who just wrote a letter telling Ace (us) what he thinks. A horrific point indeed.
I think you have, in fact, completely misunderstood my point.
A rarity.
I was pointing out that Oda knows exactly how much writing letters are difficult for boys and he went ahead and made that scene anyway because of how important Ace and Luffy were to him. And thus the reason why he hasn't contacted them in the past 9 years is understandable since boys don't usually write. Just the act of writing a letter was filled with that much importance that further correspondence wasn't necessary.
This does not, of course, explain the past few months.
And I'm not sure what you were trying to do in the second half.
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We got to ride tonight
My little homie Sabo died tonight:ninja:
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Review Time:
! Cover Page - Alice in Wonderland much.
! Sabo getting the crap out of dodge - After the crap that we saw him go through the last few chapters, who would blame him for leaving.
! Saint Jalmac - Like all CDs we have seen before, he's made of douche.
! Sabo's "Death" -
This whole entire saga had the strawhats losing, Hancock falling for Luffy, Sasukebeard having TWO devil fruit powers, and Ace and Whitebeard diing (That should be sign there!). Yet, there's people who believe that this flashback is going have someone actually die in it. facepalm
! Ace and Dadan's return - It was kind of obvious that they would survive. I also like Ace's reason for not backing down and it also being a trait of Old Roger himself. Like father, like son as the saying goes.
!StewieDogura tells Ace and Luffy about Sabo's "death" - I got to say this was pretty sad especially the letter reading in the end.
! By the way, is it me or does this frog that's drinking tea with the strawhats on the cover looks kind of like Sabo. FOOOORRRREESHADOWING! Anyway, good chapter. -
http://www.thegrandline.com/odaswitchint.htm
Uh oh! Someone that actually reads a shit-ton of what the author says and relates it to his storytelling!
And what exactly makes you think I haven't read this and everything else about One Piece in your website? Really I have to agree with brennen, you are just being a dick…
I was pointing out that Oda knows exactly how much writing letters are difficult for boys and he went ahead and made that scene anyway because of how important Ace and Luffy were to him. And thus the reason why he hasn't contacted them in the past 9 years is understandable since boys don't usually write. Just the act of writing a letter was filled with that much importance that further correspondence wasn't necessary.
This does not, of course, explain the past few months.
And I'm not sure what you were trying to do in the second half.
You are really trying to compare boys sending letters just to praise a mangaka, and a boy sending a letter to keep his brothers from worrying about him being dead, in a world where this is 1 of the only 2 options to contact people from far away.
My point is that if there was any other means for him to contact his brothers he would, and if there wasn't then he would send a letter, even if having to write a letter is a pain for him, because as even Oda's interview implies, boys only send letters when they have something they really need/want to say. And I would include "don't let your brothers morn your death if you aren't dead" as something to make any boy decide he needs to send a letter, or use any other way possible to tell his brothers that he is alive.
Sabo wouldn't simply think "let them think I'm dead, because I can't bother myself to write another letter"… It doesn't even suits his personality to do something so cruel as to not tell people he loves that he is alive, and let them suffer and morn his death.
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no what i just realized, chapter 439 we set off water 7 for fishman island.
next chapter it will have been 150 chapters and we have still not gotten there
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Meh, I'm just gonna step on out there and say you are kinda being a dick, Greg. Just sayin'.
I was about to say the same thing.
I am being a dick.
I had to wake up to that shit and it put me in a terrible mood all day.Seriously Greg? Your gunna let some meaningless comments on a forum affect your day? Seriously man? Maybe you should take a break.
Im not trying to get at you but it's kinda embarrassing….you have completely valid points but your going overboard with stepping on people.
Chill out bro. WOOOOOSAAAAAA
I was pointing out that Oda knows exactly how much writing letters are difficult for boys and he went ahead and made that scene anyway because of how important Ace and Luffy were to him. And thus the reason why he hasn't contacted them in the past 9 years is understandable since boys don't usually write. Just the act of writing a letter was filled with that much importance that further correspondence wasn't necessary.
Yes I see the connection you are trying to point out …if it was my brother (blood or bond) I would write a letter...maybe not to a mangaka but to someone I love and care for...why not? I generally DON'T write [letters] to anyone (which goes with your point) but in the case of Sabo, I would.
You also have to consider that modern day and age kinda butts writing out of the picture and replaces it with TXT and IM's…or a phone. In the OP world, aside from the Den-Den Mushi's...it's writing that is probably the most dominant besides face-to-face communication between most people.
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It should be interesting when we do get to Fishman Iland though. It was always called a paraidise. Now we know that it was due to Edward Newgate's protection and now that he's dead, Fishman Island is going to turn chaotric. Cue in Straw Hat Crew to help bring back order with probably help from Jinbei, Hachi, Keimi, Pappug, and the Mermaid Princess.
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I didn't even want to go there you know. Just up to the Admiral point.
Because it's like…
How in the HELL can you use Coby as an example in an argument discussing whether Oda does or doesn't foreshadow potential it just-HEY WAIT!
We're still fighting robby!!!! You cheating whore!!!! sobs heaves sobs
You know what the difference is?
Coby is alive and showing this progress and movement towards his goal.
Until we see Sabo alive, you can SPECULATE all you want about his potential, but it all means shit cause you have nothing to back that up with.
If were going by what was shown as potential as a kid, then is Kuina was alive she would end up being strongest swordsman correct? Nothing Zoro coudl ever do, she was always improving just as fast as he and she had great aspirations.
So go ahead SPECULATE all you want about sabo's strength if he were alive, but that is all it is, your own guess on how strong you think he could or might be. There is no backing to your guess. And I'm glad I ruined your day, however pathetic that is that a post can do that
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Until we see Sabo alive, you can SPECULATE all you want about his CURRENT potential, but it all means shit cause you have nothing to back that up with.
Fixed.
If were going by what was shown as potential as a kid, then is Kuina was alive she would end up being strongest swordsman correct? Nothing Zoro could ever do, she was always improving just as fast as he and she had great aspirations.
I disagree with this. Potential is only one factor of many that affects where one would end up.
Potential is just the capacity in which one can be great but it doesn't write in stone that you will be the greatest or you will reach your fullest potential. It takes hard work, dedication, and a bit of good fortune to do so. To say that there would be nothing Zoro could do to surpass Kuina is completely incorrect. Zoro could very well pass Kuina and exceed even his own potential.
So go ahead SPECULATE all you want about sabo's strength if he were alive, but that is all it is, your own guess on how strong you think he could or might be. There is no backing to your guess. And I'm glad I ruined your day, however pathetic that is that a post can do that
I agree.
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Has it occurred to anyone that Luffy saw Ace's vivre card burning up, and was told bluntly "Hey, Ace is in mortal danger and he's dying!" and Luffy shrugged it off and said "He's on an adventure. He can take care of himself, he's fine." Wasn't until Luffy found out about the execution that he got involved.
If al three boys had the same sense of adventure and their own toughness and being able to survive, I don't see any reason Sabo would think differently.
Sure he ran into trouble very quickly on his adventure, but its still… not worth writing home about. It's not like Luffy fought Alvida and then wrote a letter to Ace. "Hey big bro, I fought this fat lady and had a fight! But I'm okay!" or, "Well, I fought this shiboookie, and he nearly killed me twice, but I'm okay!" Its all part of having an adventure and trusting in your own strength. Heck, Luffy then went against Moria and said "It'll be just like Crocodile" and someone else had to point out "he nearly killed you twice!" That group of super strong monster boys don't sweat the details.
(Also, one guy with binoculars was able to barely make out the incident. 10 feet away from him, one thing. But with binoculars? There's a reason it was that far out and hard to discern.)
Also, since I'm currently re-reading Thriller Bark, I found ANOTHER example of the "hat flying off symbolizing defeat, but not death" moment, with Usopp versus Perona.
[hide]
[/hide]and then half a second later he Sogeking-ed up.
That makes Luffy, Ace, and Usopp losing their hats, but it not equaling death. Just loss of the moment. Yes it was symbolic for Hiriluk's death, but he also had the epic speech.Fallen hat doesn't equal death, the same way an explosion doesn't.
I am being a dick.
I had to wake up to that shit and it put me in a terrible mood all day.
It's okay Greg.
I understand your sense of humor and the points you are making.
Don't stop believin'.
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LOL at the Greg bashing.
I think that all this letter business is just everyone trying to point out the one thing he messed up in to try to disprove the rest of his very valid points.
This doesn´t mean that the rest of the shtuff he posted, or his attitude towards certain posts, isn´t justified, albeit a little over the top.
Logia defense was mastered by people with vast amounts of experience, who all had haki(except Croc that we know of), mayor willpower and control over their own bodies. If Usopp got a Logia, I would bet it all that his Logia defense would be laughable and easy to get around.
Remember that the strength of the person also relates to the strength of the power that the DF can unleash. Sometimes, like with Croc, the DF aspect is way more developed than the physical, but if Akainu T-1000 can get slashed with haki and still manage to phaze through with logia defense, it means that haki and strength are somewhat tied to the control and effectiveness of the Logia defense, both of which Usopp is lacking in. And Akainu does have haki, like all the admirals do, proved by the amazing MAHOU L33Tness exhibited in the blocking of WB´s attack on the scaffold.
Edit: Luffy would kick Logia Usopp´s ass. Guaranteed. And Sabo´s childhood strength, barring some tragedy or impediment that doesn´t allow him to grow (slave, being maimed, amnesia, or death LOL), should and would be indicative that he is nearly Ace level, even now. This I believe strongly, even though I don´t necessarily think that Sabo is alive. But if he is, this would be so, hands down.
If someone quoted me before I edited my horrible grammar, I apologize.
UsoppSpell!
On the eve of spoilerificaiton, you will wait until you remember it's break week.
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Let's look at both of their dreams so to speak as that is brought up to show their potential.
Sabo wants to write a book on his adventures.
Ace wants the world to recognize him.Ace goes out and fights insanely strong guys, hell he went and tried to face whitebeard. Can we say Sabo woudl be doing that? Woudl Sabo have purposely searched out Whitebeard to fight him?
Second you bring up Usopp woudl not be good with his Logia, so Luffy woudl figure it out and beat him. First there is the Luffy has to FIGURE SOMETHING OUT. You can't deny that fact, that one small fact itself is my main point. If two equal people are fighting, yet one has that small disadvantage, or advantage the fight is tipped hugely in their favor.
Second this is ACE, not Usopp. So he isn't just some fluke with a devil fruit and no control over it. So we have a:
Slightly stronger Ace than Sabo without any fruits
Ace with a more prove myself, become strong oriented dream
then finally Ace gets an all powerful logia fruit to ADD onto his power.If you think Ace is just as strong without a fruit as he is with this logia you are a joke.
So without fruits, lets just hypothetically say Sabo does manage to stay roughly Ace's strength. Now Ace gets the Logia, and obviously gets a power jump from it. So now how is Sabo still his level? where is his power jump coming from?
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Second you bring up Usopp woudl not be good with his Logia, so Luffy woudl figure it out and beat him. First there is the Luffy has to FIGURE SOMETHING OUT. You can't deny that fact, that one small fact itself is my main point. If two equal people are fighting, yet one has that small disadvantage, or advantage the fight is tipped hugely in their favor.
Because Haki and the six forms and the natural strength of a fishman and Don Krieg's armor and Kuro's berserker technique and Mantra and zombies not feeling pain and swordsmen having sword techniques and dials and giants being huge and Kuma being a cyborg and Franky being a cyborg aren't advantages in battle?
Devil Fruits aren't the end all be all, and they aren't the only power up in the world. That was the entire point of the Bellamy fight. The richochet spring fruit should have been an AMAZING battle, especially against a rubber man. I was looking forward to it the first time around, and then Luffy OHKOed the bastard.
Sure, DF give access to extra abilities, and not everyone can get one, but those abilities mean nothing without the will to use them, think about what they can do, and master them.
Usopp has dials now and they give him plenty of creative variety. He can create fire, smoke, absorb and redirect any impact, achieve perfect aim, and more. And he created the climatac for Nami… as a gag item, but nami figured out how to utilize it with her weather knowledge.
Is it unfair that other opponents don't have dials? Is it unfair that Franky has a metal front side and random crazy robot parts? Or that Nami has a weather baton? Or that Chopper uses rumble balls to cheat his DF into doing things he can't normally? Or that Kumadori had unique hair manipulation abilities? Or that Wanze was a master of noodles?
Or is it okay because they figured out how to make the best use of what they have and their natural abilities and how to deal with DF users when they meet them? (And on the grand line DF users are ridiculously common. Not like East Blue where there were a couple in the entire region and they were practically legend.)
So without fruits, lets just hypothetically say Sabo does manage to stay roughly Ace's strength. Now Ace gets the Logia, and obviously gets a power jump from it. So now how is Sabo still his level? where is his power jump coming from?
…I don't think anyone was arguing that Sabo was as strong as Logia Ace. Just that Sabo was as strong as Ace. Only time can tell what differences may have been wrought upon his ability set, but his natural strength alone should be monstrous, better than Luffy's currently.
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@robbybedfart:
Because Haki and the six forms and the natural strength of a fishman and Don Krieg's armor and Kuro's berserker technique and Mantra and zombies not feeling pain and swordsmen having sword techniques and dials and giants being huge aren't advantages in battle?
That's totally irrelivent. yes those are advantages, but they are not logias. And lets just use krieg quick anyway. imagine krieg "WITHOUT" his armor. How would that fight have gone? Its obviouls without his armor he was not luffy's equal.
But lets just look at a video game quick, say mortal combat or any other fighter. You are going against a buddy and your both equally good at the game. You played each other 50 times and you won 24 of those times to his 26.
Now you play him again next weekend and this time he inputs a code that makes him invincible for the first minute of the fight. No matter what you do, you can't hurt him, yet he can hurt you the same just as before. Can you make a good guess on what the score will be after 50 rounds this day?
That's what having a Logia is like. You are fighting someone your equal, yet they have the advantage of you having to try and find a way past his invincibility cheat. I used a minute, because that is what croc gave Luffy.
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@JERK:
Ambition.
….......................I thought it was "Mojo"?
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Let's look at both of their dreams so to speak as that is brought up to show their potential.
Sabo wants to write a book on his adventures.
Ace wants the world to recognize him.Ace goes out and fights insanely strong guys, hell he went and tried to face whitebeard. Can we say Sabo woudl be doing that? Woudl Sabo have purposely searched out Whitebeard to fight him?
Second you bring up Usopp woudl not be good with his Logia, so Luffy woudl figure it out and beat him. First there is the Luffy has to FIGURE SOMETHING OUT. You can't deny that fact, that one small fact itself is my main point. If two equal people are fighting, yet one has that small disadvantage, or advantage the fight is tipped hugely in their favor.
Second this is ACE, not Usopp. So he isn't just some fluke with a devil fruit and no control over it. So we have a:
Slightly stronger Ace than Sabo without any fruits
Ace with a more prove myself, become strong oriented dream
then finally Ace gets an all powerful logia fruit to ADD onto his power.If you think Ace is just as strong without a fruit as he is with this logia you are a joke.
So without fruits, lets just hypothetically say Sabo does manage to stay roughly Ace's strength. Now Ace gets the Logia, and obviously gets a power jump from it. So now how is Sabo still his level? where is his power jump coming from?
LOL at being called a joke from you.
Do you really think that when Ace got the Logia he didn´t neglect other aspects of his strength? Other than endurance, did he exhibit any other outstanding physical abilities with Blackbeard? Do you not believe that Ace would have become a beast even without a DF? Do you not believe that Logia defense makes physical response more sluggish? That having it without training your fighting abilities does not result in a Croc-like state where it´s all about the DF and without it he´s a pushover?
Why do you think he had to run from Akainu? He didn´t have the tools to stand his ground without DF powers, like Vista and Marco did. Why did he lose to Blackbeard? Without his DF, Ace couldn´t rely on his own fighting abilities at that level.
Sure, Sabo would not partake in the same level of destructive power than a Logia, but if he is alive, I can assure you that at least he could give an Admiral some level of pause without his DF. Ace, like all Logias who get cocky, as is mentioned by Blackbeard during his fight, are both made stronger and weaker for having a Logia. They get cocky and careless. You shut down the DF, and you find that the fighter is only a shell of what he can do with it. And that is exactly what happenned to Ace, and he was pwned for it.
I can guarantee you that in these situations, any fighter with haki and a better all rounded fighting ability can stand his ground better than Ace. So you´re saying that a DF only makes you stronger? In Ace´s case, it is the thing that kept him from truly being a beast. When he could use it he was, sure, but wouldn´t you say that if Sabo takes a physical and spiritual approach to fighting, like Shanks or Rayleigh (that we know of so far), that maybe he is a top dog in his own right?
I´m not arguing with the magnitude of their ambition. That may factor into their end potential. But the route taken also matters. And your lack of foresight and your calling me a joke go hand in hand towards making you an obnoxious character.
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That's totally irrelivent. yes those are advantages, but they are not logias. And lets just use krieg quick anyway. imagine krieg "WITHOUT" his armor. How would that fight have gone? Its obviouls without his armor he was not luffy's equal.
And thus. He wore armor and used weapons.
But lets just look at a video game quick, say mortal combat or any other fighter. You are going against a buddy and your both equally good at the game. You played each other 50 times and you won 24 of those times to his 26.
Now you play him again next weekend and this time he inputs a code that makes him invincible for the first minute of the fight. No matter what you do, you can't hurt him, yet he can hurt you the same just as before. Can you make a good guess on what the score will be after 50 rounds this day?
After one round any sane player would go "Hey, thats a fucking cheat, cut it out, its no fun like this. I'm not playing if you do that again."
Also. Luffy had a rubber fruit and still lost to Ace and Sabo 100% of the time. Shouldn't that have given him an unfair advantage with his extra reach and durability?
That's what having a Logia is like. You are fighting someone your equal, yet they have the advantage of you having to try and find a way past his invincibility cheat. I used a minute, because that is what croc gave Luffy.
An advantage Ace got somewhere in the course of 10 years. You think Sabo has just stagnated for 10 years without finding any method to combat the perils of the grand line? Be it haki, 6 forms, his own DF, dials, something we haven't seen yet?
@robbybedfart:
Sure, DF give access to extra abilities, and not everyone can get one, but those abilities mean nothing without the will to use them, think about what they can do, and master them.
Usopp has dials now and they give him plenty of creative variety. He can create fire, smoke, absorb and redirect any impact, achieve perfect aim, and more. And he created the climatac for Nami… as a gag item, but nami figured out how to utilize it with her weather knowledge.
Is it unfair that other opponents don't have dials? Is it unfair that Franky has a metal front side and random crazy robot parts? Or that Nami has a weather baton? Or that Chopper uses rumble balls to cheat his DF into doing things he can't normally? Or that Kumadori had unique hair manipulation abilities? Or that Wanze was a master of noodles?
Or is it okay because they figured out how to make the best use of what they have and their natural abilities and how to deal with DF users when they meet them? (And on the grand line DF users are ridiculously common. Not like East Blue where there were a couple in the entire region and they were practically legend.)
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ah so now instead of them both growing up and being equals because of the great ambition we are now arguing that when ace got his logia he started to slack off
and also lets start speculating that sabo also got a devil fruit, yea that makes your arguments much more sound.
I thought you were all under impression (lets use dbz terms) that when 10 years old both sabo and ace were power levels 99 vs. 100. They both have same amazing ambition and drive and dreams to become super strong. Thus when they would be 20, without any outside fruit, they woudl be 9999 and 10000 respectively.
Isn't that your guys' whoel argument in how they both have the same amazing ambition so they woudl both become super strong right?
So then how come you change your mind now for Ace when he gets a fruit. Somehow by getting a relaly powerful weapon he lowers his ambition? his drive? he gets lazy? where is this justification coming from?
and yes krieg wore armor and had weapons to become luffy's rough equal. So let me get this straight then. Are you saying then that Sabo needs to get some sort of special weapons, armor, fruit to become Ace's equal? So now we are really starting to speculate. Now we are predicting that Sabo also has some hax fruit, or he has some special unique amazing armor or weapons that push him up to a logia enhanced ace.
The fact is you guys have been saying this.
Ace (age 10) - 100 power level
Sabo (age 10) - 99~100 power levelAce (age 20) - 10,000 power level + Fire Logia
Sabo (age 20) - 9,999~10,000 power levelNow how the hell are they the same? They aren't. You have to beyond the speculating of Sabo being as strong as Ace without fruit to also add onto that speculation that Sabo got something else to bring him up further to ace's level.
How much further are you goign to keep speculating. man i am getting annoyed with that word
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ah so now instead of them both growing up and being equals because of the great ambition we are now arguing that when ace got his logia he started to slack off
and also lets start speculating that sabo also got a devil fruit, yea that makes your arguments much more sound.
I thought you were all under impression (lets use dbz terms) that when 10 years old both sabo and ace were power levels 99 vs. 100. They both have same amazing ambition and drive and dreams to become super strong. Thus when they would be 20, without any outside fruit, they woudl be 9999 and 10000 respectively.
Isn't that your guys' whoel argument in how they both have the same amazing ambition so they woudl both become super strong right?
So then how come you change your mind now for Ace when he gets a fruit. Somehow by getting a relaly powerful weapon he lowers his ambition? his drive? he gets lazy? where is this justification coming from?
and yes krieg wore armor and had weapons to become luffy's rough equal. So let me get this straight then. Are you saying then that Sabo needs to get some sort of special weapons, armor, fruit to become Ace's equal? So now we are really starting to speculate. Now we are predicting that Sabo also has some hax fruit, or he has some special unique amazing armor or weapons that push him up to a logia enhanced ace.
The fact is you guys have been saying this.
Ace (age 10) - 100 power level
Sabo (age 10) - 99~100 power levelAce (age 20) - 10,000 power level + Fire Logia
Sabo (age 20) - 9,999~10,000 power levelNow how the hell are they the same? They aren't. You have to beyond the speculating of Sabo being as strong as Ace without fruit to also add onto that speculation that Sabo got something else to bring him up further to ace's level.
How much further are you goign to keep speculating. man i am getting annoyed with that word
Are you an idiot? At the highest levels of fighting in this manga, a DF is not necessary to be just as deadly as a Logia, or to defeat one. Your arithmetic is flawed severly in logic.
Just throwing some numbers out there with no thought to them at all does not make you right. Sabo can be just as strong as Ace in fighting without a DF. If Sabo´s focus of fighting is like Shanks, he could potentially fight and beat Ace now 24 times out of fifty, even without a DF.
GET IT NOW? Weapons + Haki can beat DF. Even DF+Haki.
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This idiot just made up power levels.
WOW.
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99 vs. 100 means they fought 199 times. If they had fought 200, Sabo may have won and they would've been even.
Also, the loss mustn't necessarily have been the latest. It could also be Sabo lost the very first match and since then, they've been perfectly even, winning every second match.
Technically, they should be concidered equal. However, Ace had now a devil fruit, and Sabo's current position is unknown. It is however to be assumed, since Oda stated their equal grounds in a flashback, after showing Ace's death in present time, they would still be equal. Otherwise, there would be no point in showing that they once were. :)
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Arguing with Sammsy ==
If it isn't already absolute in the story, he just doesn't see how it could happen.
@Sammsy - I bet you didn't know the result of Ace vs Blackbeard until it was revealed.
Your point about Kuina is exactly what everyone is trying to get across to you.
Yes, if Kuina was still alive, then she'd be around Zoro's strength and ability. No one is saying absolutely better or absolutely weaker, but considering they were sparring partners as kids, then this lets us interpolate how her abilities would develop over the years.Hey guys, no name-calling.
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This is a manga for kids. It's not that hard to deduce that someone as strong minded (or with a strong determination) as sabo will be one of the top pirates out there if he survived.
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Hey guys, no name-calling.
I apologize, oh free roaming Cat-spirit of Headphones. Can we make a sacrifice to earn your forgiveness? I hear cats like liver of Sammsy.
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What they hell don't you understand?
Physically, they should be about the same.
Once you start changing the formula to account for the fruit, you have to change it to account for both sides, and assume OVER THE COURSE OF TEN YEARS, Sabo would ALSO get something to upgrade his abilities along the way, in whatever shape or form that might be. Be it weapon, haki, 6 forms, whatever.
Either you count the fruit and then potentially level the playing field… or you DON'T count the fruit. EITHER WAY, at their base strength, even without a DF addition, Sabo should still be monstrously strong. Stronger than Luffy, who is capable of breaking apart a city block worth of buildings.
The same way Sanji and Zoro are considered in the same "Monster" league as Luffy, for their crazy stamina, recovery ability, determination and strength, even though they lack a DF. Robin, CHopper and Brook all have DFs, but they aren't considered part of the monster trio because they don't have that same horrendous drive and power.
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Wow. Props to the "Sabo is Alive" camp. They're making me question my stance on the Sabo issue. I still think Sabo's dead and I'll stick with it until proven otherwise (even if it means I sink with it), but you guys are good. And if he is alive, I'll admit I was wrong, even if I have to change my avatar and/or sig for a month or whatever saying I was wrong.
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@robbybedfart:
What they hell don't you understand?
Physically, they should be about the same.
Once you start changing the formula to account for the fruit, you have to change it to account for both sides, and assume OVER THE COURSE OF TEN YEARS, Sabo would ALSO get something to upgrade his abilities along the way, in whatever shape or form that might be. Be it weapon, haki, 6 forms, whatever.
Either you count the fruit and then potentially level the playing field… or you DON'T count the fruit. EITHER WAY, at their base strength, even without a DF addition, Sabo should still be monstrously strong. Stronger than Luffy, who is capable of breaking apart a city block worth of buildings.
The same way Sanji and Zoro are considered in the same "Monster" league as Luffy, for their crazy stamina, recovery ability, determination and strength, even though they lack a DF. Robin, CHopper and Brook all have DFs, but they aren't considered part of the monster trio because they don't have that same horrendous drive and power.
This, while impeccable, is too many words strung together. Too complicated for the receiver, and a lamentable waste of space and effort, admirable as it may be.
May I suggest: ACE HAS DF BUT SABO CAN HAVE OTHER STUF TO THAT MAKE HIM JUST AS STRONG.
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It's pretty sad since we saw what the top pirates are able to do to logias and that with their bare hands. Maybe Sammsy needs to read the past chapters again?
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Only if Wiper bothered to carry around a dagger, the logia supremacy trend would have been broken.
Screw reject dial, use a damn blade to the heart, Wiper.Stab through the heart and you're too late. You give logia a bad name
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@robbybedfart:
What they hell don't you understand?
Physically, they should be about the same.
Either you count the fruit and then potentially level the playing field… or you DON'T count the fruit. EITHER WAY, at their base strength, even without a DF addition, Sabo should still be monstrously strong. Stronger than Luffy, who is capable of breaking apart a city block worth of buildings.
The same way Sanji and Zoro are considered in the same "Monster" league as Luffy, for their crazy stamina, recovery ability, determination and strength, even though they lack a DF. Robin, CHopper and Brook all have DFs, but they aren't considered part of the monster trio because they don't have that same horrendous drive and power.
Yes yes and yes.
I'm guessing this is also understood, but I will add that Kuina herself said that the reason she was so upset was because she knew that as they all grew up, it was simply a fact that boys would gain more muscle mass than girls would. Zoro's anger and feeling of being ripped off by this fact not-withstanding, this is a simple truth. If it weren't, there would not be separate teams for men and women in the Olympics. Eventually Zoro would have surpassed Kuina, at least in strength, and Kuina would have had no alternative but to gain an edge in terms of strategy or pure swordsmanship or other skills.
As for Luffy, eventually everyone reaches their maximum in terms of being fully grown, at which point it's all on how much they train, how much drive and ambition they may have, and how capable they are of using and further developing the ability to use strategy through any given fight (of course this is not counting other things like d/f). At this point, wouldn't it then be possible for a younger kid to catch up with an older one, even if he keeps training and working? Luffy certainly believed it, because he kept saying that to Ace all the time.
But Luffy is still growing, and so, if alive, is Sabo, as they are still young, so at this point he may be stronger still, but he may not be in the future, if and when they meet again, if enough time has passed.
Eh. FWIW I also wanted to point out, too, as far as Dogura seeing Sabo going down through the binoculars, that there was a lot of smoke etc from the fire and the explosion shown in the panel that would have obscured the view for him, as well.
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You are really trying to compare boys sending letters just to praise a mangaka, and a boy sending a letter to keep his brothers from worrying about him being dead, in a world where this is 1 of the only 2 options to contact people from far away.
I generally DON'T write [letters] to anyone (which goes with your point) but in the case of Sabo, I would. In the OP world, aside from the Den-Den Mushi's…it's writing that is probably the most dominant besides face-to-face communication between most people.
No offense guys, but not only are these arguments flimsy, they are also playing right into his argument. Greg used an interview as backing for his point and his credibility. This point, however, uses a real world generalization about modern boys and applies that to an in-story character who, of all things, wants to write a book about the world, and who already broke the generalization argument by writing a letter of substance to Ace [and Luffy].
Sabo knows a huge crowd of people saw him explode, and Oda made him smart enough to realize news travels. Sabo even included concern in his first letter for Ace and Luffy regarding the fire, when they don't even live in the Grey Terminal. Why wouldn't he assume they are concerned for him, who was publicly seen exploding off shore? There are tons of ways you could present these questions, but none of them really matter since this whole subject is something Oda could gloss over or give explanation to easily, should he want to.
@UsoppSpell:
[hide]@UsoppSpell:LOL at the Greg bashing.
Who's bashing Greg? I said he was being a dick, and he is. He even admitted it?
I think that all this letter business is just everyone trying to point out the one thing he messed up in to try to disprove the rest of his very valid points.
Is this aimed at me? You say 'everyone', but you address the things I mentioned in my post. Anyway, it's a weak argument for both sides, no doubt, and I am not sure why it was even brought up, but I was just using the first two arguments that came to mind that seemed over the top in presentation while still having the same flaws he was calling 2010 noobs out for.
This doesn't mean that the rest of the stuff he posted [..] isn't justified.
Dismissing the presentation, the arguments I've seen in this thread aren't all that strong. I'm all for discussing the primary ones, and Greg or someone else is welcome to pick apart my post on the page prior. Nobody has done so yet, so I am simply discussing what has been brought up. In this case, the letter.
Logia defense was mastered by people with vast amounts of experience, who all had haki, major willpower and control over their own bodies.
Where to start. Smoker has Ambition? The Admirals are still just speculation. Ace has used it, but we never saw him control it. Croc doesn't. Blackbeard is also unknown. Enel used Mantra, that's it. Hey, look at that, I listed all of them and only one of them was actually seen using a speculated form of Ambition. Willpower and control are useless arguments, as every single DF user we have seen has had control over their fruit. Croc's comment in Alabasta was about being creative with the power so you can maximize on its functionality, rather than settling for the basic set of obvious uses. He says this right before he makes quicksand. You know what though, this is all irrelivant because it has no context. The context is…
If Usopp got a Logia, I would bet it all that his Logia defense would be laughable and easy to get around. Sabo's childhood strength, barring some tragedy or impediment that doesn't allow him to grow, should and would be indicative that he is nearly Ace level, even now.
If Sabo and Ace are on a similar level, with Ace taking the upper hand slightly, Ace would become a fair amount 'stronger' by the simply eating his Mera Mera Fruit. For starters, he gains intangibility and extremely powerful heat based attacks, both long and short range. These are the most fundamental abilities gained. This is yet another stupid argument that doesn't matter at all though and was only brought back up because Greg was being a dick and said that eating a logia means "fuck-all". While I understand the point he was making, the context was Ace and Sabo as near equals, then Ace eating his Mera Mera Fruit.[/hide]@Aohige_AP:
Only if Wiper bothered to carry around a dagger, the logia supremacy trend would have been broken. Screw reject dial, use a damn blade to the heart, Wiper.
He'd still need those seastone rollerblades though.
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