OUCH! With that I'm surprised you haven't drawn a dress on Ace in your sig.
Chapter 588 "Sabo's Ocean" Discussion
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I'll never get all the Ace hate. Do people really think that little bit of bitching he did about his (admittedly shitty) life makes him a whiner?
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The reason Sabo will be powerful is because of his fight ranking with Ace.
The moment I saw that board I instantly fell in love with him and with Oda (again).
It's a hint that says, "Hey look, this kid can go fisticuffs with fucking Ace and come out NEARLY even."
Imagine that grown up. You've got someone who's at most a what? Johz level? (btw I dunno what the acceptable trans for him is) I mean holy shit folks, that's AWESOME.
no that doesn't mean anything. Sure Sabo was strong back then, but doesn't mean he continued to train and get as strong as Ace did.
then also counter in the logia Ace aquired.
Hell take lets say Zoro, now throw him Ace's fruit and tell me he is the same strength. Or give it to Sanji, or hell even usopp. They jump up to some new tier. I mean really, go and imagine all of their fights they have had, but give them Ace's Logia. Or hell just a Logia in general, besides blackbeards.
So Sabo now, IF ALIVE, does not mean he is Ace level.
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no that doesn't mean anything.
LO-FREAKING-L
2010 has brought some really incredible new members to the forum hasn't it?
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LO-FREAKING-L '
so your saying that by what we were shown that lets say Ace and Sabo say same strength throughout their life, they are not 18 years old or 17 or whatever when they set sail from fusca village. The same strength again right.
Now Ace eat his fire logia fruit. They are the same strength still? to that I say LO-FEAKING-L
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Oh my goodness.
This is too much.
I'm so happy I started here with discussions amongst the likes of Ivotas, ocean and Ubiq.
Logia, as any fruit, means fuck-all if you don't have a strong will and learn how to adapt it.
You don't eat a Logia and become incredible. You have to be a remarkable individual to accomplish what the likes of the high tier fighters do with their fruits.
Proof: Croc to Luffy.
This has FUCK-ALL to do with how 'good' someone is because of their fruit and everything to do with how much strength, creativity and potential they have as a fighter.
Oda showing us that board was proof positive that even at an early age where someone like Ace who could take out adults and crazy-ass wild animals, he had someone who was almost an equal in Sabo. Sabo proved his personal strength several times throughout the story culminating with him setting out on his own.
JUST like Ace and JUST like Luffy. All brothers, all incredibly driven. And as a result of that, they enjoy the benefits of their hard work and training. Coincidence?
Nope.
As I said before, the board was to show us that Sabo, although not quite as powerful as Ace, is someone that has the drive to keep up with even Roger's son and that was the first sign that he was something special and not just some jackass in a top hat.
Unless Sabo somehow managed to become a complete pussy after vowing to search for what freedom meant and LEAVING EVERYTHING HE KNEW BEHIND, I find it difficult if not impossible to believe he suddenly stopped having the same attitude.
Welcome to Arlong Park. This is how we discuss shit.
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LO-FREAKING-L
2010 has brought some really incredible new members to the forum hasn't it?
To be honest, Ace was far weaker than he is now, although Luffy hyped him saying Ace beat him even before he got a DF while Luffy had one, we can now clearly know why
So, who knows? If Sabo comes back (and I'm sure he will), he should be powerful, but the fact he defeated a younger Ace doesn't really mean that much -
To be honest, Ace was far weaker than he is now
Holy
Mother-fucking
Cock-sucking
Cunt-lapping
Shit
What part are you not getting.
NOWHERE have I even hinted at suggesting Ace was as powerful then as he was before his death.
I am saying he was far superior to almost anyone that could be considered a peer and he continued with that attitude, spirit and drive in life which allowed him to become what he was.
Or would you argue that Stelly is as strong as Ace was?
This is probably the fourth time I've elaborated on this to that end in as many pages.
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Holy
Mother-fucking
Cock-sucking
Cunt-lapping
Shit
What part are you not getting.
NOWHERE have I even hinted at suggesting Ace was as powerful as he was then as he was before his death.
I am saying he was far superior to almost anyone that could be considered a peer and he continued with that attitude, spirit and drive in life which allowed him to become what he was.
This is probably the fourth time I've elaborated on this to that end in as many pages.
< 3
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i'm not saying Sabo wouldn't have been as strong as Ace was BEFORE he got the Logia.
Croc prooves nothing, except for that one fruit. We have no way of knowing how to beat Kizaru, Aikanu, Aokji, Enel, Smoker and any others. Please enlighten me how Luffy woudl have won if not for being rubber against Enel? The same trick doesn't work for all logia's.
If Ace and Usopp both had same fruit, the one Ace had. Ace would OWN Usopp. But as of right now, I don't belive Luffy coudl beat either of them.
And there is also one thing that Oda showed as well regarding Sabo and Ace. He showed Ace has teh king's Haki, he never showed whether Sabo did or not. And oda also showed how crapping their pants even the admirals became over the Potential that this haki shows. So from EVIDENCE, Ace has more potential than Sabo. This is not saying Sabo didn't have insane drive and his own insane potential, but due to Ace's haki he is shown to have more potential.
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Croc prooves nothing
And this proves you have no idea what I was referring to.
Game Over.
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your saying what i said later in my post. If usopp and ace both have logias, first of all ace would be stronger due to being base stronger, and then also whoever trains their fruit and gets better with it woudl be stronger too. case in point look at luffy in this flashback hitting himself in the head with his own fist. that is a beginner, and luffy now is expert
but ignore the rest of my post then please. Tell me one thing and I'm fine.
Ace and Sabo would be same strength right now if both alive.
Even though you bring up potential, and Oda has brought up how much potential kings haki has, and Ace is shown to pretty much have it, nothing is shown for sabo. And then Sabo is somehow just as strong as Ace when Ace was slightly stronger than Sabo way back when and then later got a logia fruit, and he is skilled with.
and besides mastering your fruit has nothing to do with this point. Like I said give Usopp a Logia besides Croc and please tell me how Luffy is going to beat him? Besides knocking him in ocean or sea stone cuffs thrown on. All of a sudden a super weak usopp is now not beatable to luffy. I'm not saying Luffy woudl lose, or that Usopp woudl beat luffy. All i'm saying is that Luffy can't beat Usopp. Would be like having Luffy realize he can't hurt usopp, and usopp can't get any hits on luffy. But then now have Ace who can beat luffy normally have a logia that luffy can't hurt. now its totally one sided. And same with Sabo, even if ace/sabo same base str, with just base logia and no skills in it at all, how does sabo hurt ace? Even if he finds out a way, that takes time, and also is somethign he has to do in order to just touch ace, while ace has no restrictions and can go all out. thus ace is stronger from just getting fruit.
if you can't see this you are blind.
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Ace and Sabo would be same strength right now if both alive.
Hold on cowboy.
Be very careful with what words you put in my mouth.
Where did I say that even once?
All of a sudden a super weak usopp is now not beatable to luffy.
Interesting…
So in the first part of your post you defend that training with a fruit is important and yet here you suggest that someone like Usopp eating a Logia would be instantly able to KO Luffy.
2010 folks. 2010.
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Holy
Mother-fucking
Cock-sucking
Cunt-lapping
Shit
What part are you not getting.
NOWHERE have I even hinted at suggesting Ace was as powerful then as he was before his death.
I am saying he was far superior to almost anyone that could be considered a peer and he continued with that attitude, spirit and drive in life which allowed him to become what he was.
Or would you argue that Stelly is as strong as Ace was?
This is probably the fourth time I've elaborated on this to that end in as many pages.
LOL
First things first: Relax, I come in peace.
And I read your other posts after having posted what I did, and I agree
I just wanted to point out that just because Sabo was as good as Ace in the past, doesn't mean we can be sure he'l be above average tier now.
That is all, sorry for the misinterpretation -
I'm not cursing at you. I'm cursing at the situation.
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Sammsy, did you understand the conversation was about potential? Even with ace having Haki, as you yourself pointed out,Sabo was still nearly as good as Ace as a kid. How could a person with that much internal drive and "ambition" not develop into someone with amazing abilities if he reached adulthood, even without a fruit or the magical version of "haki" that Ace and Luffy have? Look at Garp, if you want a "pure" example without a fruit.
Perhaps I don't really understand your point, since it appeared you were talking about something completely different than Greg. Can you explain it?
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IF Sabo is still alive he'll be extremely powerful since he was depicted as a freakishly strong child. This is a fact and pretty much a law in any shonen manga. Denying this would simply be wrong.
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IF Ace is still alive he'll be extremely powerful since he was depicted as a freakishly strong child. This is a fact and pretty much a law in any shonen manga. Denying this would simply be wrong.
You mean Sabo, right?
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"I wanna be strong and fight strong guys and set off on my own before I have pubic hair and I can go head to head with GOLD ROGER'S SON and come out alive and….ah fuck it. I'll just sip tea and watch porn for the rest of my life."
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The power ranking between Ace and Sabo was clearly a sign that Sabo would have become a powerfull pirate, had he continued in that path.
I also am in the Sabo is alive camp, my only questionmark is: if Sabo became a pirate, he would have become infamous with a bounty on his head and so; so why didn't Luffy/Ace hear of him yet? -
If he is that strong… Why nobody knows about him?
But the best is that Kaidou theory
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I just want to point out, that Sabo has a mythical Zoan.
For those who understand why Sabo isn't dead and is as powerful as he should be, you can see the split of 3 kingdoms in their brotherhood.
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G'Oda knows all, sees all, and reveals what he wants when he feels like it fits the story, and not before.
And LOL Greg. I'm sure he ran into Basco Shot and is even now laying in some gutter, a complete alcoholic.
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@I:
You mean Sabo, right?
Totally.
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I just want to point out, that Sabo has a mythical Zoan.
For those who understand why Sabo isn't dead and is as powerful as he should be, you can see the split of 3 kingdoms in their brotherhood.
No he has the swim swim fruit… he is able to swim against gigantic currents. And he has the amnesia no mi combined with morph no mi which gave him the appearance of Law. That's why Ace and Luffy never recognized him
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Hold on cowboy.
Be very careful with what words you put in my mouth.
Where did I say that even once?
Interesting…
So in the first part of your post you defend that training with a fruit is important and yet here you suggest that someone like Usopp eating a Logia would be instantly able to KO Luffy.
2010 folks. 2010.
no i did not say KO Luffy, I said Luffy would not be able to hurt him.
there is a difference. Its like Zoro trying to cut Mr. 1
Zoro could be a billion times stronger than mr. 1, but it all is to naught if he can't cut him. So until Luffy finds out a way to physically hurt Usopp with a fire logia, like Luffy did for Crocodile, then Luffy can't win.
I didnt' say anything about Usopp winning, only Luffy can't defeat Usopp. Thre is a difference.
You said this:
Imagine that grown up. You've got someone who's at most a what? Johz level? (btw I dunno what the acceptable trans for him is) I mean holy shit folks, that's AWESOME.First its your assumption that Ace is stronger than Jozu, and also that Ace without his fruit would have even been commander.
But there is 2 things to consider.
1. How does Sabo hurt a fire logia?
2. If Sabo/Ace base str is same, how much upgrade does master Fire Logia give himRegardless of #1, fact is Sabo still needs to find a way and use that way to fight, thus a disadvantage from get go. If equal strength and you give one person advantage, they win.
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CONCLUSION
For Luffy, and for his character development, Sabo is dead.
For us, and from the point of view of Oda, it's best to keep him as possibly not dead so story-wise he could still use him.
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If he is that strong… Why nobody knows about him?
But the best is that Kaidou theory
This theory is certainly the worst I have ever seen. I would even prefer sabo ( even if this dude is dead) to be Law than him to be Kaidou or to be in kaidou's crew.
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Like Ivotas already said; People still have Sammsy out of their ignore list???
Seeking infinity, with all my affinities.
Finding truth, like a falling fruit, my ultimate finality.
Inside my being, the outside, all things; the finite leads the way.
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Like Ivotas already said; People still have Sammsy out of their ignore list???
Who the hell uses a Ignore list?
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I have no one on my ignore list besides AGOG and Beka in the past
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@I:
Sammsy, did you understand the conversation was about potential? Even with ace having Haki, as you yourself pointed out,Sabo was still nearly as good as Ace as a kid. How could a person with that much internal drive and "ambition" not develop into someone with amazing abilities if he reached adulthood, even without a fruit or the magical version of "haki" that Ace and Luffy have? Look at Garp, if you want a "pure" example without a fruit.
Perhaps I don't really understand your point, since it appeared you were talking about something completely different than Greg. Can you explain it?
Do you know anything about what potential means?
How close they were as a kid shows nothing as potential, it just shows how close they were as kids. Their fights and record shows nothing to potential, it just shows their starting spot for strength. Potential is future, Sabo could have been as strong as he ever gets when he was 10.
Sabo's potential is shown by his aspirations and dreams and commitement and all that. Not by how strong he is at some point. So yes Sabo had potential the same as Ace and Luffy, but this was not shown at all by his fight records, that just showed how strong he was at THAT time. Has nothing to do with potential.
Ace is shown to have all these same big aspirations and what not, plus his king's haki which as said makes even admirals shit about potential.
so by going what manga has told us, Ace has higher potential just due to showing of the haki. Their being same strength at one time is not potential, that is just their strength at that time.
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no i did not say KO Luffy, I said Luffy would not be able to hurt him.
Like I said give Usopp a Logia besides Croc and please tell me how Luffy is going to beat him?
So…they'd battle how? Compare cocks? You're really not making any headway here.
Luffy couldn't harm him but Usopp couldn't KO him so...what?
It's like a Buddhist riddle.
Zoro could be a billion times stronger than mr. 1, but it all is to naught if he can't cut him.
If Zoro was a 'billion' times stronger than Mr. 1 he could crush his body with a swing of his sword.
BTW, we can no longer have this discussion after the arrival of the phrase 'billion times stronger'.
Our levels of readership and logic are just worlds apart. I'll give you a few more years to grow. I like your tenacity though.
How close they were as a kid shows nothing as potential, it just shows how close they were as kids.
"Hi! My name is Sammsy! I've never read a Japanese comic in my life but I'd like to think I do!"
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why I think Sabo is alive, aside from the story relevance Oda might have in store for him; Normally we have deaths in flashbacks, but now with Ace's death in the main story, this flashback could symbolically be juxtapositioned in contrast to the main story, and so in stead of pulling a pell in the main story (saving Ace), Oda would do it in the flashback (saving Sabo).
- I think Sabo is the "narrator" of the One Piece story?
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Psh! It's obviously Pandaman.
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IF Sabo is alive than he is probably as strong as Ace was or a bit below… Even if he hasn't a logia... Look at Zoro or Sanji. They haven't a damn fruit and still are able to keep on with Luffy (Sanji a bit less)
Just having a logia didn't make you an powerhouse no one can beat... See Eneru or Croc or even Smoker. You jsut have to find their weaknesses. And if you have them and you are overall stronger than them in skills than you can win.
And Ace having king haki doesn't mean anything. Yeah it is the strongest from but he never was able to control it as it seems. In both fights he haven't use them. Who know maybe Sabo has haki cuz he lacks a DF.
But first of all we have to wait for next chapter and see if he COULD be alive or not. But I like the narrator theory... and if he is alive I hope he is still using his pipe xD
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Do you know anything about what potential means? followed by a bunch of other stuff based on this argument…
Yes, I'm quite sure I know what the word means, thank you. No offense, but perhaps you should look it up yourself for a better understanding of the concept, or get a better English dictionary. It doesn't in fact mean where a person is at the current time, it refers to indicators that allow you to speculate where a given person may be capable of ending up in the future. When you are talking about kids, these are the things you can look at and measure against others to guess where they may end up as an adult, so the score board does indeed indicate Sabo's potential.
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were talking about potential and someoen strength at one time means jack shit as to potential. potential is what they can end up at, not what they are.
dont' give a shit if a japanese comic, real life, or any other media, that is what fucking potential means.
And again, lets go by your japanese comic, Ace was shown as more potential, enough said. thats it, no arguing more on that. there is no way around that.
how would usopp and luffy battle? well i imagine luffy trise to find a way to hurt usopp until he either does or he runs way. Usopp in meantime also tries to hurt luffy, and Luffy would either dodge most attacks or they aren't strong enough to beat luffy until luffy finally runs away or figures out some way to hurt usopp. how do you not get that?
Is perfectly shown in smoker, besides smokers being stronger than luffy or as strong. Luffy can't figure otu a way to beat smoker and so he runs. Luffy didn't get KO'd now did he? But just because luffy can't hurt smoker doesn' tmean smoker wins. though in this case smoker is at least as strong as luffy if not more and does win in their fights.
oh and ignore a totally relevent point regarding zoro and mr 1 because i said billion times to just prove a point and in your responce back you say our 'readership?' and logic are "worlds apart" I guess you can use bullshit extreme sayings but i can't?
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BTW talking about potential… Maybe Sabo is even stronger now...
If he is his own captain or whatever he is... Maybe he fights a lot more now. He should be longer at the grandline already than Ace and btw after Ace became 2nd division commander I doubt he had that much fights... I doubt a lot of people were going against WB and his crew...
And one thing I noticed... Sabo mentioned Ace each day used that dangerous mountain path for training... Sabo didn't use that and was still near as strong
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BTW talking about potential… Maybe Sabo is even stronger now...
If he is his own captain or whatever he is... Maybe he fights a lot more now. He should be longer at the grandline already than Ace and btw after Ace became 2nd division commander I doubt he had that much fights... I doubt a lot of people were going against WB and his crew...
And one thing I noticed... Sabo mentioned Ace each day used that dangerous mountain path for training... Sabo didn't use that and was still near as strong
I'm gonna guess that if you chose to live the dangerous life of second division commander for WB in the NW and the GL, you are gonna spend a little time each day honing your skills and staying in top form.
And I'm further gonna guess that living in the hell hole that was the Grey Terminal required a tad bit of staying in top form and defending yourself daily as well. Those boys had a rep there for a reason.
And yes, I am understating it to make a point, in case that isn't obvious, lol.
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were talking about potential and someoen strength at one time means jack shit as to potential. potential is what they can end up at, not what they are.
You really don't understand how storytelling works: it's called foreshadowing. It's a literary technique in which one drops hints by, let's say, showing that Sabo was stronger or as strong as Ace. Then, later in the story we find out that he is still stronger than Ace! That's what this literary device can do! Isn't that amazing?
dont' give a shit if a japanese comic, real life, or any other media, that is what fucking potential means.
I'd say judging by your grammer and spelling that you have no clue what a lot of words mean in English. "Potential" is not an exception for you.
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@I:
Yes, I'm quite sure I know what the word means, thank you. No offense, but perhaps you should look it up yourself for a better understanding of the concept, or get a better English dictionary. It doesn't in fact mean where a person is at the current time, it refers to indicators that allow you to speculate where a given person may be capable of ending up in the future. When you are talking about kids, these are the things you can look at and measure against others to guess where they may end up as an adult, so the score board does indeed indicate Sabo's potential.
yes lets look at three kids
1: Sabo
great aspirations
great drive
great dream
the tools to achieve them
ect.2. Coby
great aspirations
great drive
great dream
the tools to achieve them
ect.3. some strong kid same as Ace/Sabo
lazy as fuck
no dreams
no aspirations
ect.sabo and coby will end up in the end the strongest, due to their potential. Yes looking at it like this sabo could be thought to reach a higher potential than coby, but no way of knowing that.
Hell lets just look at Coby. He is probably going to be an admiral, yet look at how strong he was at what age when we met him. Again guessing potential, looking at sabo and coby you would peg sabo to be a bigger force in the end, but its all a guess. But Sabo and Coby are for sure going to have a higher potential than 3. And that is because of all the things not related to how strong they are NOW.
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Hell lets just look at Coby. He is probably going to be an admiral, yet look at how strong he was at what age when we met him. Again guessing potential, looking at sabo and coby you would peg sabo to be a bigger force in the end, but its all a guess. But Sabo and Coby are for sure going to have a higher potential than 3. And that is because of all the things not related to how strong they are NOW.
Not a bad point, not a bad point. There's just a couple of major problems in your argument. Oda took out the time to show that Sabo beat Luffy every time they fought. Not only that…but he beat Luffy more times than that. Not only that, but you're using speculation to fuel your argument. NOT ONLY THAT but Coby still got his ass handed to him by Luffy in Marineford.
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@I:
I'm gonna guess that if you chose to live the dangerous life of second division commander for WB in the NW and the GL, you are gonna spend a little time each day honing your skills and staying in top form.
And I'm further gonna guess that living in the hell hole that was the Grey Terminal required a tad bit of staying in top form and defending yourself daily as well. Those boys had a rep there for a reason.
True that… but Ace wasn't in top form after all xD
But still... Sabo could be stronger, equal or weaker now... Who knows. We have to wait if we will see him again or now...
But if yes he should use his pipe xD That would be so upper awesome and look like this
! <object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="
"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"><embed src="" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></object>and look like this
!
A true street fighter… I mean pirate -
LOL @ Greg getting sucked in to the Sammsy vortex of nonsense.
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Hell lets just look at Coby. He is probably going to be an admiral, yet look at how strong he was at what age when we met him. Again guessing potential, looking at sabo and coby you would peg sabo to be a bigger force in the end, but its all a guess. But Sabo and Coby are for sure going to have a higher potential than 3. And that is because of all the things not related to how strong they are NOW.
But Sabo was never shown as a kid who was lazy and etc, so that seems moot.
And I don't actually think Coby showed his potential much in those first chapters when he first met Luffy. His potential was unleashed by Luffy, who is supposed to have that sort of effect on people–so we've had hammered into us for some time---and as such it represented the aformentioned literary device "foreshadowing," in that case used to tell us something about Luffy--not Coby. So no, his potential never matched Luffy's, but it wasn't meant to.
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@Zach:
Not a bad point, not a bad point. There's just a couple of major problems in your argument. Oda took out the time to show that Sabo beat Luffy every time they fought. Not only that…but he beat Luffy more times than that. Not only that, but you're using speculation to fuel your argument. NOT ONLY THAT but Coby still got his ass handed to him by Luffy in Marineford.
That is past tense. we are talking about potential right?
Ace beat luffy every time too, but can we all agree that Luffy would end up pirate king and stronger than Ace, thus Luffy had/has more potential.
Now on to Coby, sure he has been getting beat by Luffy, but this is past tense and again on his journey to becoming Admiral. Do we knack Luffy's potential for all the times he has gotten beat? Potential is not present tense it is future.
If Sabo is not alive, we can do nothign but speculate on his potential, but Luffy will have had more potential, unless you want to believe that end of story that if Sabo/Ace were still alive that Luffy couldn't beat them.
And in end Coby will most likely be alive and Admiral, and then again back to Ace/Sabo. how can we compare their potential when they are dead. Admiral is stronger than Ace, who we can agree has at least same as Sabo's potential if not more.
So call me out on speculating, but a pirate king luffy and a admiral coby to me are more potential than two dead guys. Correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't staying alive part of a persons potential? I know the saying when someone dies where they had so much potential, but then I think of Zoro basically saying if he dies here then that is all the potential he had.
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@I:
But Sabo was never shown as a kid who was lazy and etc, so that seems moot.
And I don't actually think Coby showed his potential much in those first chapters when he first met Luffy. His potential was unleashed by Luffy, who is supposed to have that sort of effect on people–so we've had hammered into us for some time---and as such it represented the aformentioned literary device "foreshadowing," in that case used to tell us something about Luffy--not Coby. So no, his potential never matched Luffy's, but it wasn't meant to.
I never said sabo was lazy, didn't you notice he was #1, and #3 was a lazy made up person for my example.
And it doesn't matter when someone shows their potential, or finally gets drive. Its the end result that matters. If sabo would end up only as strong as Ace was now, and Coby ends up as strong as an Admiral, who had more potential? When his potential is shown, how it started, none of that matters.
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True that… but Ace wasn't in top form after all xD
But still... Sabo could be stronger, equal or weaker now... Who knows. We have to wait if we will see him again or now...
I think we can say that ace was a little bit stronger than Sabo, since Ace won 26 fight on 50 over Sabo.
Not that their strenght was really different -
Holy shit bricks.
I came in the middle of a duo rape…
Sammsy, don't let these 2 get to you too bad. Just make sure you think 4x before you reply to them, any mistake and you will be ripped to shreds.
