Kuina was tragic as fuck, though she should've been driven to make up for strength gap through sheer skill.
Chapter 588 "Sabo's Ocean" Discussion
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Kuina's death made me laugh honestly…. It was so out of the blue.
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Hmm?: http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/5/15/ as I said the promise scene is her closure and Zoro is carrying out the promise.
Click the next page. That scene is just sad. Making promises just for the sake of making them. She had no intention of actually pursuing and fulfilling that promise.
Looks more like Zoro took on a burden for the sake of not looking like an idiot since the person he couldn't defeat gave up.
Even if Sabo's letter is suppose to be his version of a death speech/smile it's not comparable to Kuina.
Kuina was tragic as fuck, though she should've been driven to make up for strength gap through sheer skill.
And speed. It'd actually be bad writing now if Zoro ever comes across a non-DF using swords-woman.
All this haki shit, martial arts, and hell even DFs and Kuina just gave up. I guess we'll fall back on Oda being somewhat sexist with OP females. Lets kill the little girl cuz she's a girl. Her inferior muscle mass could never be able to truly wield a weapon and know the art of the sword.
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If only Kuina had heard a vague rumor about Ivanokov and his gender bending abilities, she would have had hope and ambition and a dream and survived the fall, no problem.
But she was resigned to suck and saw it as inescapable fate.
Its her outlook that killed her, not the fall.
In this series, dreams overcome ALL. Its been the standard for 13 years. Those without dreams, or who have fullfilled them, can die. Anyone WITH a dream? Is immortal.
Ace's dream was to be accepted and loved and not hated, and he got all that when he saw everyone fighting to save him, and the sheer potential Luffy had to legitimatley become king during that run.
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Well you could argue that Sabo was free for those fleeting moments that he set sail with his flag raised, being free was his real dream.
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The only thing I don't get is why Oda would put the flashback after Ace's death, if Sabo wouldn't come back.
Oda creating a character that turns out to be their third brother only to kill at the end and never show it again is weird, and its not like the character really matters, if it was the reason that made them go in adventures, Oda could have easily mentioned the character way before, so why only now? And that emotional drama in this flashback is "stupid", because its obviously overshadowed by the death of Ace.
I think he will be important in the future, like a Pirate or a Revolutionary -
The only thing I don't get is why Oda would put the flashback after Ace's death, if Sabo wouldn't come back.
Oda creating a character that turns out to be their third brother only to kill at the end and never show it again is weird, and its not like the character really matters, if it was the reason that made them go in adventures, Oda could have easily mentioned the character way before, so why only now? And that emotional drama in this flashback is "stupid", because its obviously overshadowed by the death of Ace.
I think he will be important in the future, like a Pirate or a RevolutionaryBecause Luffy is dealing with the death of his last brother and the vow that he and Ace made after Sabo's death will likely play into him getting over his grief.
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Your Sig only reminds me of just how easy it would have been for Kizaru to put one between his eyes as he screamed "It´s my age!".
Stupid sniper lazer battle spoiler.
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http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/549/18/
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/549/19/Big obvious scene coming up that will go over how Sabo's death motivates Luffy and Ace and in this little snippet you can clearly see how they went from grieving to having renewed resolve. I'll add that this chapter showed how Ace and Luffy felt regret at not trying to steal Sabo back but this snippet shows them vowing to live free of regret (which also connects to the regret Luffy would feel if he couldn't fight to help save Ace here: http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/568/14/) then reiterating the freedom thing that I've been saying, we'll know exactly to what extent Sabo's death motivated Ace and Luffy next chapter but you keep saying traits that Luffy had yet you can't ignore how Sabo's death would be important in shaping them.
My point, though, was that Sabo's extra motivation is only extra to both Ace and Luffy. It was an important event in their lives and understandably so. The impact, though seems insubstantial considering how important of a character he should be. The motivation that Luffy got from Sabo makes up the lesser part of his overall motivation.
Even so, I understand that you're worried about what would happen to that motivation if Luffy met Sabo again, but seeking freedom was already a part of Luffy, so I don't believe it would be compromised. What Sabo's 'death' did do was motivate Luffy to become stronger. He was the crybaby who couldn't do anything to protect either Ace or Sabo and that made him value his closest friends so much to the point where he won't let anyone get away from him (he did let Usopp get away for a while, but that greatly saddened him). He would still be driven by the fact that he couldn't do anything at the time.
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Makes sense, but couldn't the same be accomplished if the flashback of Sabo was put before the war? In fact, it might have made the death of Ace even more unbelievable and sad, and would still have the same effect.
I dunno, I guess you're right and I'm looking for something that's not there, but I really think there is something else to itOh well, we'l see
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Nah, the way I see it Sabo's dream (freedom as a pirate) was inherited by Ace and Luffy, but the 2 sides (Sabo dead/not dead) are never gonna agree, right? His death scene is unclear enough to let people believe otherwise for pretty much the rest of the series, just like Tom, for example.
Sabo theories aside, anyone else liking Ace waaay more after this flashback? he doesn't deserve all the hatin' going around.
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Your Sig only reminds me of just how easy it would have been for Kizaru to put one between his eyes as he screamed "It´s my age!".
Stupid sniper lazer battle spoiler.
Blackbeard got a fire lance through his heart and karate'd chop Ace three seconds later
I don't think it would have made much difference haha, maybe we'd hear him scream for three minutes before getting up, but I doubt it'd make much difference in the long run -
Well you could argue that Sabo was free for those fleeting moments that he set sail with his flag raised, being free was his real dream.
He's sets sail on the boat still asking himself what is true freedom. He's still aspiring as he leaves (to get a boat as big as the world He's sets sail on the boat still asking himself what is true freedom. He's still aspiring as he leaves (to get a boat as big as the world noble's). So how was he even free for a few seconds?
@Kanemaki:Sabo theories aside, anyone else liking Ace waaay more after this flashback? he doesn't deserve all the hatin' going around.
Nah Ace is still lame. What Garp said about Roger was cool but I'm reserved in still thinking he's badass and Ace is a dumb douche.
I wonder how Oda feels about the character since I always thought he created him to die and all of that good detailed stuff as far as what developing Luffy entails was his purpose. However, young Ace does seem like he could've been a better character than what we saw from Ace in Alabasta, ID, and all that whining and pity me sympathizing he did during the war.
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(This chapter really choked me up)
I can't help but hold out a bit of hope that maybe maybe maybe Sabo isn't dead. Yes, we do see the ship blown to pieces and sinking, as well as his tattered hat on the water but…
Sabo could swim (no Devil Fruit)
He saw the attack coming, if only for an instant
If Sabo did survive, he would naturally keep a low profile as the renegade son of a Noble
Oda has a tendency to use the corpse of an important character as a huge emotional tap for the scene. Someone would have at least recovered Sabo's body if he died. They all float up eventually.Unless we see some sort of funeral in the next chapter, I'm holding out hope that the lil' Noble's still kicking.
also EPIC FORESHADOWING WIN with Ace/Luffy/"I won't run" thing. It just adds that much more meaning to his sacrifice at Marineford.
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You cross the S in "Sabo", to remove it, then put a mirror in from of the word, and what do you get?
"Sabo" => the "S" is crossed (we could make an X over it, for example) leaving "Abo" => use a mirror: "Abo | odA" => Resulting in "Oda"!!
This is either genious or an incredible coincidence.
Sabo as narrator would be interesting. What's better is that it supports the idea that Sabo's dead cause he would know everything from beyond:ninja:
And I'm just gonna gather all of my thoughts on Sabo and why I think it's okay for him to die here. And since I'm lacking organization it might seem a little rambly, but there's a lot of points I want to cover from different angles. Kudos to anybody who actually reads the whole thing.
One of my earlier posts stated why I think he's truly dead. I would think that Dogura would stick around long enough to see whether Sabo's body was found or not. And if it wasn't found I would think Dogura would say his ship was attacked instead of Sabo died since they would like to be as optimistic as possible.
My spectulation for Sabo's ambiguous death was because there were limits on the number of pages he needed to do and not because Oda wanted to bring him back in the future.
The lack of a corpse could be because Oda didn't want to draw a little boy's corpse in a magazine aimed at young boys. That might be thought of as too graphic for little kids.I also think there was enough set up in the story earlier that it wouldn't be seen coming out of nowhere. The Celestrial Dragon event was talked about since the beginning and everyone suspected that a major event will occur from it.
Sabo was definitely developed enough. People have an opinion on him, so he has a personality. And his backstory and his relationship with his family were fleshed out to develop more character.
I would say that Sabo's death would feel rushed, especially since his final thoughts were "why is this person firing at me." But then again, what would Sabo be saying? Of course Sabo wouldn't be satisfied with dying since he just set out on his adventure. This would truly be a tragedy if Sabo died. I would not expect some inner monologue on how Sabo lived a fulfilling life before kicking the bucket.
And even though this would be contrary to Oda's style in killing off characters, I would like to think that having a death that is sudden and without closure would be very powerful on Oda's part. To have a character die just when they think they're about to live their dreams could be very symbolic of how this world just crushes all hope and this corruption destroys a lot of good in the world.
Plus not every character in this series is Luffy or Roger in which as long as they want it badly enough they could reach their dreams and live as they want. Luck/fate is just as important to surviving as will. Kuina is a good example of that. Yeah, she had a funeral and Zoro and her dad had a heart felt talk afterwards, but Sabo could have a funeral next chapter. For sure, Ace and Luffy will be talking about Sabo's death next chapter.
Back to the main point, dreams get crushed. Once again, different and maybe even contradictory to Oda's message, but would be a very powerful reminder that not everybody can get what they want in the world. Life's not fair.
Sabo's death as sudden and out of the blue has definitely shaped Luffy into the character he is today. I doubt Luffy would be nearly as protective about his comrades if he didn't understand what true loss felt like. This would also explain his Determinator attitude with Ace since he would want to rectify his mistakes with Sabo.
Finally, there's what the impact of Sabo being alive would mean to the story.
But before that, there's two options that need to be considered first if he is alive: whether Luffy and Ace know he's alive.
If they knew he was alive, then even this chapter would be wasted since they are crying over him just to realize he survived later on.
Luffy's line of "he's my only brother in the whole world" would just be a giant plothole.
And Ace would have said more about Sabo than just a passing mention at his death. A line stating that he would've wanted to see Sabo like he wanted to see Dadan would have been nice.From the other and more likely view: Sabo's alive then Luffy and Ace wouldn't know, this would also cause problems. Where would he be right now? Forget stupid theories like he was saved by the Revolutionaries, if Sabo survived, he would either be injured and is being taken care of by somebody that hasn't shown up yet, or Sabo's in hiding but would still be around the island.
The best way would be for Sabo to be a stowaway on the Celestrial Dragon's ship. It would solve the problems of the body and why Luffy/Ace did not know he was alive. He probably thought that meeting with them again could be left to faith.
If Sabo just stayed on the island and stole another ship, then that would mean that nobody would have seen him during this time. Possible, but less likely.
Now to talk about Sabo's influence in the main story would be:
This thought was from brennen.exe from the spoilers, but I have to agree that any development made by Ace and Luffy from thinking Sabo's dead would be moot otherwise. From this chapter alone, having Ace and Luffy cry over his death just for him to come into the story later would make the panels seem wasted. His promise to meet up again in the future wouldn't matter since Ace is now dead.
Sabo being alive would also bring an interesting question for Luffy: If Sabo survived but Ace died, would it have been better for Luffy to not try to save his brother? Obviously he played a major role in the story but I would ask that if I were in Luffy's situation.And for his main story role, if Sabo is alive, that would be for Oda to decide. I tried imagining scenarios of Sabo in revolutionaries, being a pirate, or whatever and all could be possible if Oda kept Sabo alive without it being awkward. Any thoughts Sabo has on Ace's death could be shown later in the story.
The more I think about the more I think I'd be okay with Sabo being alive, but I'm still convinced that the signs are pointing to Sabo's death.
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I know the conversation has moved on from this issue, but I wasn't here for that part, so sue me, lol.
People were talking about the timing of the official announcement of Ace's execution 7 days prior to the date, and the arrival of WB's fleet at Marineford and how amazing it was that they managed to get there. I had always assumed WB was aware of Ace's capture and preparing for his part in the war long before the official announcment. Wouldn't a pirate of WB's standing have some sort of intelligence network up that would have informed him some time before the official announcment of the execution? If he did in fact know ahead of time, he would have had longer than a mere 7 days to get his fleet preprared and a plan in place.
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@I:
I know the conversation has moved on from this issue, but I wasn't here for that part, so sue me, lol.
People were talking about the timing of the official announcement of Ace's execution 7 days prior to the date, and the arrival of WB's fleet at Marineford and how amazing it was that they managed to get there. I had always assumed WB was aware of Ace's capture and preparing for his part in the war long before the official announcment. Wouldn't a pirate of WB's standing have some sort of intelligence network up that would have informed him some time before the official announcment of the execution? If he did in fact know ahead of time, he would have had longer than a mere 7 days to get his fleet preprared and a plan in place.
The problem with that theory is that Sengoku clearly knew when Whitebeard finally decided to start moving from his intial location, and that was in the 7 days from the announcment
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The problem with that theory is that Sengoku clearly knew when Whitebeard finally decided to start moving from his intial location, and that was in the 7 days from the announcment
But we know that the reason Shanks initially sent a messenger to WB instead of going himself when he wanted to talk about not sending Ace after BB was because he knew it'd shake the WG up if they got together–in other words they know they are being watched. That does not preclude him being able to gather allies via messenger or denden mushi, does it? They could have prepared in smaller, subtler ways, before making a big obvious move.
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@AdmiralYonkouMt.Bandit:
Nah Ace is still lame. What Garp said about Roger was cool but I'm reserved in still thinking he's badass and Ace is a dumb douche.
Disagree but still lol..
@ultimateclima:
This is either genious or an incredible coincidence.
Sabo as narrator would be interesting. What's better is that it supports the idea that Sabo's dead cause he would know everything from beyond:ninja:
And I'm just gonna gather all of my thoughts on Sabo and why I think it's okay for him to die here. And since I'm lacking organization it might seem a little rambly, but there's a lot of points I want to cover from different angles. Kudos to anybody who actually reads the whole thing.
One of my earlier posts stated why I think he's truly dead. I would think that Dogura would stick around long enough to see whether Sabo's body was found or not. And if it wasn't found I would think Dogura would say his ship was attacked instead of Sabo died since they would like to be as optimistic as possible.
My spectulation for Sabo's ambiguous death was because there were limits on the number of pages he needed to do and not because Oda wanted to bring him back in the future.
The lack of a corpse could be because Oda didn't want to draw a little boy's corpse in a magazine aimed at young boys. That might be thought of as too graphic for little kids.I also think there was enough set up in the story earlier that it wouldn't be seen coming out of nowhere. The Celestrial Dragon event was talked about since the beginning and everyone suspected that a major event will occur from it.
Sabo was definitely developed enough. People have an opinion on him, so he has a personality. And his backstory and his relationship with his family were fleshed out to develop more character.
I would say that Sabo's death would feel rushed, especially since his final thoughts were "why is this person firing at me." But then again, what would Sabo be saying? Of course Sabo wouldn't be satisfied with dying since he just set out on his adventure. This would truly be a tragedy if Sabo died. I would not expect some inner monologue on how Sabo lived a fulfilling life before kicking the bucket.
And even though this would be contrary to Oda's style in killing off characters, I would like to think that having a death that is sudden and without closure would be very powerful on Oda's part. To have a character die just when they think they're about to live their dreams could be very symbolic of how this world just crushes all hope and this corruption destroys a lot of good in the world.
Plus not every character in this series is Luffy or Roger in which as long as they want it badly enough they could reach their dreams and live as they want. Luck/fate is just as important to surviving as will. Kuina is a good example of that. Yeah, she had a funeral and Zoro and her dad had a heart felt talk afterwards, but Sabo could have a funeral next chapter. For sure, Ace and Luffy will be talking about Sabo's death next chapter.
Back to the main point, dreams get crushed. Once again, different and maybe even contradictory to Oda's message, but would be a very powerful reminder that not everybody can get what they want in the world. Life's not fair.
Sabo's death as sudden and out of the blue has definitely shaped Luffy into the character he is today. I doubt Luffy would be nearly as protective about his comrades if he didn't understand what true loss felt like. This would also explain his Determinator attitude with Ace since he would want to rectify his mistakes with Sabo.
Finally, there's what the impact of Sabo being alive would mean to the story.
But before that, there's two options that need to be considered first if he is alive: whether Luffy and Ace know he's alive.
If they knew he was alive, then even this chapter would be wasted since they are crying over him just to realize he survived later on.
Luffy's line of "he's my only brother in the whole world" would just be a giant plothole.
And Ace would have said more about Sabo than just a passing mention at his death. A line stating that he would've wanted to see Sabo like he wanted to see Dadan would have been nice.From the other and more likely view: Sabo's alive then Luffy and Ace wouldn't know, this would also cause problems. Where would he be right now? Forget stupid theories like he was saved by the Revolutionaries, if Sabo survived, he would either be injured and is being taken care of by somebody that hasn't shown up yet, or Sabo's in hiding but would still be around the island.
The best way would be for Sabo to be a stowaway on the Celestrial Dragon's ship. It would solve the problems of the body and why Luffy/Ace did not know he was alive. He probably thought that meeting with them again could be left to faith.
If Sabo just stayed on the island and stole another ship, then that would mean that nobody would have seen him during this time. Possible, but less likely.
Now to talk about Sabo's influence in the main story would be:
This thought was from brennen.exe from the spoilers, but I have to agree that any development made by Ace and Luffy from thinking Sabo's dead would be moot otherwise. From this chapter alone, having Ace and Luffy cry over his death just for him to come into the story later would make the panels seem wasted. His promise to meet up again in the future wouldn't matter since Ace is now dead.
Sabo being alive would also bring an interesting question for Luffy: If Sabo survived but Ace died, would it have been better for Luffy to not try to save his brother? Obviously he played a major role in the story but I would ask that if I were in Luffy's situation.And for his main story role, if Sabo is alive, that would be for Oda to decide. I tried imagining scenarios of Sabo in revolutionaries, being a pirate, or whatever and all could be possible if Oda kept Sabo alive without it being awkward. Any thoughts Sabo has on Ace's death could be shown later in the story.
The more I think about the more I think I'd be okay with Sabo being alive, but I'm still convinced that the signs are pointing to Sabo's death.
Sir either you are overthinking this wayyy too much or you are very much correct.. I hope the first one though.. If this were any other author in any other manga i would agree cpmpletely but Oda is a maniac, i think that giving Sabo a death like that, and saying that not all are like Luffy and Roger is wise, but then that makes One Piece's whole concept out of wack, Kuina died the way she did because she didn't believe in herself, there hasn't been a character that has died because of determination, im going to go as far as saying Ace died of stupidity. Oda in a recent interview said he wanted to stray away from "dark" in my opinion if Sabo did in fact die, then he lied through his teeth, but lets not forget we are talking about Oda and not Masashi. Giving Ace a death then developing a character for him, then giving him a reason to live, then obliterating that reason with Akainu, then Killing off his other brother is as dark as it gets. I could be stating this because I hope Sabo lives, but he is wayy different than Kuina. She basically reincaranated herself in Tashigi, was a crutch to help understand a character who STILL LIVES and obviously a MAIN CHARACTER. Ace is neither, my best bet is that Sabo is going to be used to help One piece get out of it's negativity by having a revival..
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@I:
But we know that the reason Shanks initially sent a messenger to WB instead of going himself when he wanted to talk about not sending Ace after BB was because he knew it'd shake the WG up if they got together–in other words they know they are being watched. That does not preclude him being able to gather allies via messenger or denden mushi, does it? They could have prepared in smaller, subtler ways, before making a big obvious move.
Or they could have warned them to come as soon as they found out, considering Whitebeard managed to come from the New World to Mariejoa fairly easily, why wouldn't the other do the same?
Its not like I can prove you're wrong, but whatever you're right or wrong, it doesn't matter, because Whitebeard and the Division Commanders can go to Mariejoa, warning or no warning -
Or they could have warned them to come as soon as they found out, considering Whitebeard managed to come from the New World to Mariejoa fairly easily, why wouldn't the other do the same?
Its not like I can prove you're wrong, but whatever you're right or wrong, it doesn't matter, because Whitebeard and the Division Commanders can go to Mariejoa, warning or no warningI'm no tactition, but it was to be a war. Everyone, even outsiders, understood the import. As far as I udnerstand it, you don't give any unecessary info about troop movements and size to the enemy in a war. That's why I figured he try to be secretive as much as possible.
That's it for me, now though. Gotta go to bed, now
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Even so, I understand that you're worried about what would happen to that motivation if Luffy met Sabo again, but seeking freedom was already a part of Luffy, so I don't believe it would be compromised.
While I agree with everything else you said, I think that the "being free" part of Luffy was never something he committed to due to his own desire, but is actually the manifestation of his desire to carry on his lost brother´s will.
What really has me interested with all this development, is that sure Luffy was motivated to follow a path due to his childhood idol Shanks and Sabo´s death, but the reasons for setting out weren´t his in the first place. They were Sabo´s. Out of respect for him, and believing him dead, Luffy vowed to get stronger and stronger.
While Luffy has an enourmous ego and willpower, his personality is lacking. Now I know he is extremely charismatic, and can sway people to side with him, and is the life of the party, etc. etc. This is not what I mean with lacking personality. What I mean is that Luffy never has had a true purpose for becoming Pirate King. He was always the little pushover who had to get noticed, who had to get stronger. This is what this flashback, I feel, is showing us. His vow to get stronger and live freely, however, this is perhaps not his goal. He was living the life that he thought he should, in the way that he thought he should live it, because he was so in awe of his brothers and Shanks. Always following an example, always the little brother. Always with a Goal to surpass the two people he so looked up to. This has been his goal so far.
But now, with Ace gone, his crisis runs deeper than his grief. He is no longer the little brother. His life, his purpose, the belief that Ace was invincible and always would be there is shattered. The confidence he had learned to build up, his entire outlook on life, it is broken. With his heart reeling, he needs to rebuild his life, his goal, and the reason for his ambition. He will finally live to further his own desires.
Look back for a moment at his reaction towards losing his friends. Compare it to the loss of Ace. For his friends, panic, sure. Sure he hadn't exerted himself physically as he had with the entire Ace Rescue, but his mind was not momentarily destroyed. At the point where he started losing his friends, he did not break down. And please keep in mind that at this point, he had no reason to believe they weren't dying. Ace was a whole 'nother scale. He completely lost his senses. His grief overwhelmed him. His mind couldn't take it in. His entire drive, the reason he kept on truckin' despite taking in so much punishment, the very reason he managed to survive it all like that, is because of Ace.
But Luffy will be different than Roger. In the next chapters Luffy will, something I dare not speculate as to how long it will take, develop a new reason to continue to fight. This is a pivotal moment in this Manga, and there is a very clear reason as to why this flashback was necessary. Now we know (at the very least I think I know) what Luffy needs to do to outgrow himself. Non-coincidentally the term outgrow lands very true, because what he needs to do now is to step up, and be that little brother no more. When he finds his reason, his true ambition will surface, and with that he will learn to harness his haki. The reason he cannot use it, I am certain now, is that his experience did not give him a goal that was truly worth fighting for. What he decides now will be the reason that the outcome, the end of his journey, will be different from Roger's.
Luffy was always at his strongest when he was thinking of protecting his friends, much like Roger was in that respect. But perhaps after this Luffy will burden much more than the desire to be free, and that is the desire to change the world for the better. By shouldering this resolution, and knowing now that what he does he does not only for himself but also for others, that purpose will push him to surpass his limits. I believe that we will see a more grown up version of Luffy, when he recovers. He will still be a goofy idiot, but when he gets serious he will become a true demon, as we have never seen him before. This process will be his coming of age, and from here on out we will see how he overcomes himself and be a pirate who can fight for the top.
With a DON!
I think that Luffy will be able to change the world in a way that Roger couldn't, and that is because the reason for their ambitions will not be the same. In the end, the conclusions that the Strawhats draw will be different from those of the Roger Pirates, and at the center of it all will be Luffy, a man who will not walk away and leave the challenge to another generation, but shoulder it for himself.
UsoppSpell!
On the eve of spoilerificaiton, you will wait until you remember it's break week.
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You cross the S in "Sabo", to remove it, then put a mirror in from of the word, and what do you get?
"Sabo" => the "S" is crossed (we could make an X over it, for example) leaving "Abo" => use a mirror: "Abo | odA" => Resulting in "Oda"!!
lol, I actually like this theory alot
@I:
I know the conversation has moved on from this issue, but I wasn't here for that part, so sue me, lol.
People were talking about the timing of the official announcement of Ace's execution 7 days prior to the date, and the arrival of WB's fleet at Marineford and how amazing it was that they managed to get there. I had always assumed WB was aware of Ace's capture and preparing for his part in the war long before the official announcment. Wouldn't a pirate of WB's standing have some sort of intelligence network up that would have informed him some time before the official announcment of the execution? If he did in fact know ahead of time, he would have had longer than a mere 7 days to get his fleet preprared and a plan in place.
Yup, I agree with you
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Re: the Whitebeard timing getting to Marineford thing;
Whitebeard didn't have much interest in obtaining One Piece, so he wasn't necessarily further along the Grand Line. He could've been parked not far from the Red Line at the time. Of course, that's something we can't possibly know.
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Am I the only one who think this whole flashback would be meaningless if Sabo really died?
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@robbybedfart:
Given his track record? 998 times out of 1000. No body=no proof. Especially with Oda.
Given his track record, how many characters who "died" in a flashback came back in the present? Banchina, Olvia, Saul, Tom, you name 'em. In fact, Hiruluk's death was near identical*. Close up, explosion seen from a distance, smoke clearing, hat on the floor and no body. Before you write this point off, consider Haxeye's point about the citizens sending a clean up crew so they don't upset the World Noble.
Seeking freedom was already a part of Luffy, so I don't believe it would be compromised.
Zoro already wanted to be the number one swordsman before Kuina died. What purpose did Kuina's death serve? What purpose did she serve at all?
@I:
I had always assumed WB was aware of Ace's capture and preparing for his part in the war long before the official announcement.
The news about Ace's capture was released before the crew left Thriller Bark. That would be 3 days + several day before they land on the Saboady Archipelago. Per Baroque Works, bounties are worth more if the pirate is captured alive because the Government can set an example of them using a public execution. Simple logic tells us Whitebeard knew long before the announcement that there would be a public execution to bait him. Just FYI.
I […] don't see why Oda would introduce a plot where a Celestial Dragon goes to the Goa Kingdom, which […] is extremely rare. […] I think this flashback is not over or will be revisited is because Oda hid the face of the king of High Town.
This reminds me… I was going to note in the spoiler thread last night that I thought it was interesting that the World Noble referred to Sabo as a commoner. On one hand, it could simply be highlighting how pompous they are; on the other hand, I thought it could be interesting if they fetched Sabo out of the water and made him a slave. I was thinking of a scenario where they have Sabo beaten and on a leash in front of all the nobles of High Town, where Sabo's father would see and freak out. Oda doesn't need to go that route, and we didn't see another slave in the procession shot, but as an alternate theory to him surviving, I think it works. The thought of Luffy eventually saving him too, perhaps. Or Dragon saving him. I dunno, just throwing an idea out there.
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If I had to wager, I'd bet on Sabo being alive mainly due to Oda's track record. Discounting that meager bit of cynicism aside, a lot of signs point to Sabo currently as fish food, not the least being the "It's a flashback, so somebody/everybody has to die" rule.
It'd be a nice bit of storytelling if he is dead and there are some great possibilities if he isn't (like Gladiator of Slaves or being completely brainwashed by the nobles. Or even being picked up by Dragon, since that meeting definitely wasn't random in the slightest.)
I've come around on this flashback arc, but I'll be glad if the next chapter returns to the future.
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Hmmm….Wasn't there a seaking lurking in the sea of Gao Kingdom? Sabo might have pulled a Jonah see biblical reference... XD
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You cross the S in "Sabo", to remove it, then put a mirror in from of the word, and what do you get?
"Sabo" => the "S" is crossed (we could make an X over it, for example) leaving "Abo" => use a mirror: "Abo | odA" => Resulting in "Oda"!!
If am not mistaken, you could see the same S in Ace tatto in his arm. when you read ASCE. The S is cross.
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Sabo being alive?With Oda you could never know…
I do personally believe he might be alive since there was no body to be seen.
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Sabo dead .
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I must say that if he is alive, Oda better indicate it someway within this flashback because he's not fooling anyone otherwise. We expect him to live with a death that vague. It'll feel really cheap if we meet Sabo later on and get a whole new flashback about how he survived and what he's been doing since then–a twist that has no surprise because again, by now we expect him to survive.
Either kill him off or show that he survived and got picked up by Dragon.
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@Kairouseki:
Sabo dead .
Your sig .
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@ultimateclima:
This is either genious or an incredible coincidence.
Sabo as narrator would be interesting. What's better is that it supports the idea that Sabo's dead cause he would know everything from beyond:ninja:
lol, I actually like this theory alot
Yeah I know, it is exactly the kind of useless and yet slightly funny thing you could find in an SBS. I can even see someone asking if it is true, and Oda giving an answer with a joke that it is true, and finalizing with a typical "…yeah right!".
If am not mistaken, you could see the same S in Ace tatto in his arm. when you read ASCE. The S is cross.
Yes, but you are just about a week late with this "insightful" information, but keep it going and you will get there.
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Why bring up the clean up crew as a point but ignore that they didn't get a body? or are yall saying they did get his body but none of this was shown?
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Sabo's acted as a third wheel to the Ace and Luffy brotherhood and a bit of fuel to Dragon's fire (which had already been lit), but that's it. If he is dead then his character was completely pointless. The story would have advanced all the same without him.
So either Oda's dabbling in some terrible writing or Sabo is really alive.
THIS.
And you make the silly claim that Sabo lacked characterisation even though we saw his home life, understood his internal character motivation, his personality, etc, so what's characterisation to you? Hell Sabo's so liked because he was given a ton of characterisation in such a short time which makes his death even more poignant.
Sabo had characterization. That's the most important point. Name me another flashback character with as much development as Sabo? Oda has put to much into this character if he created him just to die. Why would he waste chapters of developing Sabo if all he was going to do with him is kill him off? It's a waste of time! And it's bad writing. Also, then this flashback will have lost its point. Seriously, if it ends with something we already knew about, then there was no point of having it.
Another big factor is that this flashback has focused more on events Luffy had no knowledge about. Yes, this was cued by Luffy, but how would he have known what all went down in high town. The fact that this has our beloved narrator in a large part of it separates it from all other flashbacks.
And honestly, why do you people think Dragon was there in the first place? Was he just hangin around town for the helluvit, shootin' the shit? No, he knew the tenryuubito were coming, so of course he's gonna hang around, and we all saw the effect Sabo had on him, so I'm sure he wouldn't forget about him that easily.So can we have like a forum wide bet? The Sabo is alive camp vs the Sabo is dead camp? I'm sure you mods can think of something to wager.
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While I agree with everything else you said, I think that the "being free" part of Luffy was never something he committed to due to his own desire, but is actually the manifestation of his desire to carry on his lost brother´s will.
Before Luffy met Sabo, he was following Shanks as he pleased despite Garp's desire to see him become a marine and he didn't care to listen to Dadan, going off on his own to follow Ace. He was already a free spirit that followed whichever path he wanted to.
I also have a problem with the idea of Luffy being as free as he is based solely on a promise (which is ultimately restricting in nature).
Zoro already wanted to be the number one swordsman before Kuina died. What purpose did Kuina's death serve? What purpose did she serve at all?
A fair point, but for Zoro it turned his desire into a need. For Luffy, it doesn't seem to be anything more than a tribute to a friend and for Sabo to die just so that Luffy and Ace would pay tribute to his death as a motivation for travel seems pointless.
3DS FC: 0662-3589-2887
NNID: Gibbs-free
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@robbybedfart:
She'd ALREADY accepted the fact that as a girl, she would eventually lose to Zoro due to sheer muscle mass when puberty hit. Her dream was already dead, and she had no ambition or hopes for the future as a result. She had no desire, will, or reason to live.
As is, she died undefeated and the best around, which is about the most she wanted out of life.
Hey robby, I know this is not like me but I'm calling bullshit on this. In a fantasy series where people can throw houses and push apart skyscrapers, you can't accept that women have the same muscular power as men? Not to mention there are hard-ass fighting gals like the Boa sisters (especially Hancock), Hina, Tashigi, Dadan etc.
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@Thousand:
Hey robby, I know this is not like me but I'm calling bullshit on this. In a fantasy series where people can throw houses and push apart skyscrapers, you can't accept that women have the same muscular power as men? Not to mention there are hard-ass fighting gals like the Boa sisters (especially Hancock), Hina, Tashigi, Dadan etc.
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/5/14/
That was Kuina's mentality and Robby's point was about her mentality.
3DS FC: 0662-3589-2887
NNID: Gibbs-free
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@AdmiralYonkouMt.Bandit:
Why bring up the clean up crew as a point but ignore that they didn't get a body?
Well, not finding a body would be pretty important information for Dogra to forget to mention, especially considering he "couldn't believe his own eyes." I'll grant you Dogra never says, "I saw his body with my own eyes", but generally speaking when someone confirms the death of another they don't need to be so thorough as to state they saw the corpse. Point is, if they found a body, he would be either alive or dead, plain and simple. If they did not find a body, that would be a tool for Oda to use rather than conveniently leave out. There's still next chapter though, for now.
For Luffy, it doesn't seem to be anything more than a tribute to a friend.
I'd say we best wait for next chapter to say how much influence his death has on Luffy. That aside, how was Sabo or Ace any less free than Luffy? They all lived together and did the same stuff together. The scene with Ace and Luffy promising they will be the free and without regret is canon and will happen (or technically has happened), so whether you choose to acknowledge it or not that was an important piece of Luffy's history. You say it really meant nothing, since Luffy was apparently already like that, I say it is a defining moment in Luffy's life. For now. The next chapter still has potential to mix things up a bit.
[[URL="http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/5/14/"]Link] That was Kuina's mentality and Robby's point was about her mentality.
The next page her mentality changes though. I mean, we don't see much, but we know that is what is supposed to be happening. Oda could have done so much more with that flashback, but hey, it was only chapter 5.
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Well, not finding a body would be pretty important information for Dogra to forget to mention, especially considering he "couldn't believe his own eyes." I'll grant you Dogra never says, "I saw his body with my own eyes", but generally speaking when someone confirms the death of another they don't need to be so thorough as to state they saw the corpse. Point is, if they found a body, he would be either alive or dead, plain and simple. If they did not find a body, that would be a tool for Oda to use rather than conveniently leave out. There's still next chapter though, for now.
I took what he said in regards to what we saw him see. The whole clean up crew part wasn't even shown but I guess for now some will assume he waited around to see what was actually cleaned up.
@Thousand:Hey robby, I know this is not like me but I'm calling bullshit on this. In a fantasy series where people can throw houses and push apart skyscrapers, you can't accept that women have the same muscular power as men? Not to mention there are hard-ass fighting gals like the Boa sisters (especially Hancock), Hina, Tashigi, Dadan etc.
You didn't see what he did there? The importance lies in Kuina not believing she could.
I mean if he was dead I feel Sabo's corpse being carried by whomever(maybe by Dogra to bury him?) covered in a blanket would suffice in confirming his death.
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@AdmiralYonkouMt.Bandit:
I feel Sabo's corpse being carried by whomever (maybe by Dogra to bury him?) covered in a blanket would suffice in confirming his death.
Why the special treatment? Other flashback characters died without a body to confirm it. Why would Dogra, a commoner (worse, a bandit) have any sort of access to the cleanup crew's haul? Especially a corpse.
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Why the special treatment? Other flashback characters died without a body to confirm it. Why would Dogra, a commoner (worse, a bandit) have any sort of access to the cleanup crew's haul? Especially a corpse.
I don't see having a funeral for Sabo as special treatment. I also don't see how cleaning up ship debris would be considered a "haul" of any worth. The whole point of cleaning it up is to make things acceptable for the world noble, what's done with it after shouldn't matter to them. Don't the ppl of hightown just send their gargage back to trash mt. anyway? Don't see why anyone would bother Dogra looking through what they cleaned up and retrieving a body when they were more concerned about how the world noble viewed them and not pissing him off.
If anything they'd happily hand over all of the debris had they had him promise to get it out of hightown.
Especially a corpse because they all at first acknowledged he was some noble's son when he was out there but after it sank and he was deemed a commoner they all acted and like a kid just being murdered wasn't important. There isn't going to be some in depth CSI investigation of who the kid was and the corpse literally has NO value to them.
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I guess only time will tell if Dragon saved Sabo like a lot of us are speculating. Was there a cover story this time around or does Oda skip those when he puts up a 2-page spread (I always love those)?
yeah, when Oda does a double page spread he skips the non colour one page spread. :P
I thought Kizaru was always drunk 
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sabo is tralfagar law
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What really has me interested with all this development, is that sure Luffy was motivated to follow a path due to his childhood idol Shanks and Sabo´s death, but the reasons for setting out weren´t his in the first place. They were Sabo´s. Out of respect for him, and believing him dead, Luffy vowed to get stronger and stronger.
What I mean is that Luffy never has had a true purpose for becoming Pirate King. He was always the little pushover who had to get noticed, who had to get stronger. This is what this flashback, I feel, is showing us. His vow to get stronger and live freely, however, this is perhaps not his goal. He was living the life that he thought he should, in the way that he thought he should live it, because he was so in awe of his brothers and Shanks. Always following an example, always the little brother. Always with a Goal to surpass the two people he so looked up to. This has been his goal so far.
I agree in many ways, but there is still many things that bother me if what you are saying is true. We have two instances of Luffy having said something that we haven't heard yet. One was when Rayleigh was having a flashback of Shanks stating, "I met a kid who said the same words as Captain Roger." And now in the flashback, we saw Ace and Sabo in total shock to hear something so out of the ordinary and unique come out of Luffy's mouth as they were telling each other their dreams. So I don't think Luffy set out to the sea without a unique dream of his own that he hasn't come to establish yet in his own mind. For Shanks to say to Rayleigh that he was startled/surprised to hear this come from a young boy, well then it has to be unique in some way. Everyone's dream though is built up from something/someone else. Luffy's dream was built upon his friendship with Shanks. But as for the purpose of his dream to be Pirate King could just justified on the fact that he wanted to be 1. free, 2. longed for amazing adventures, 3. be greater than anyone else (once he saw how amazing Shanks was) and 4. something he said that we have never heard yet. But what you stated is correct in many ways. He will inherit a stronger dream/will/ambition through being brother-less now. But Whitebeard stated, and I believe this to be true as well, "This kid's got spirit, but no power to back it up." It's pretty much a given that Luffy will never desire to see a loved one die again, and he'll gain the power to do this. He'll become a more fierce and powerful Luffy than we've ever seen before. Imagining someone with already a strong will, and for it to grow stronger… well... It's sounds like Luffy will be a real beast in the future. And this will definitely play a role with his future Haki-fighting abilities. His tolerance for those who hurt his friends will be absolutely 0. Not that it hasn't before though... but I guess we'll see this at a whole new level.
What I'm trying to say here is that Luffy having a strong will, but not having a true purpose to become Pirate King... well it just doesn't add up. I think he does have a reason/purpose to become Pirate King (as I stated above), and that reason will only get stronger from here on out.
What he decides now will be the reason that the outcome, the end of his journey, will be different from Roger's.
I agree with this. Even Rayleigh stated that once the SH's obtain knowledge of the blank/lost history, their conclusion will undoubtedly be different from Roger's crew.
Everything else in your post is pretty much spot on.
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Sabo was smart, it's strange that he would try to escape in front of the whole town exactly the day and time when he knows the tenryublabla will arrive. Looks like he planned the whole thing, he wanted everybody to think he died in this event so his parents would not try to get him back.
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Sabo was smart, it's strange that he would try to escape in front of the whole town exactly the day and time when he knows the tenryublabla will arrive. Looks like he planned the whole thing, he wanted everybody to think he died in this event so his parents would not try to get him back.
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Well, if Sabo REALLY is alive and has amnesia, he already met Luffy @ Jaya…
BELLAMY!
They look quite similar in the face especially the round eyes.
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Sabo = Blackbeard.
Enough said.
