Haha thats actually something that could happen
Yeah and than we have the next flashback explaining why he never showed himself all over the years and why he didn't come to the war^^
Chapter 587 "I will not run!" Discussion
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Yeah and than we have the next flashback explaining why he never showed himself all over the years and why he didn't come to the war^^
He probably thought the Whitebeard pirates wouldnt suck so hard.
Or he had amnesia and hearing that Ace died made him remember his past again. :) -
He probably thought the Whitebeard pirates wouldnt suck so hard.
Or he had amnesia and hearing that Ace died made him remember his past again. :)Yeah completley that^^ But he was a pirate all the time and sucked so hard that he never got a bounty poster and no one knew about him^^
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But nobody really knew about him, except for some fodder civilians in east blue :)
That's more than enough^^ xD
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i'm really begining to think that sabo will die, cus otherwise where is this flashback going? we know he does sopmething that gives ace the will to live and search for freedom and all that crap, and i can only see that happening throhg somer sort of self sacrafice where he tells ace to live on for the both of them and fullfill his dream.
i may very well be wrong, but i just cant see how this flashback has any reall point at this moment in the story if it just ends with sabo sailing off and becoming a pirate, the only other explanation i can think of is that oda just couldnt find anywhere better to start explaining luffys past.
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I think we will have an answer in two daysā¦
(Either that, or in 16 days... :sad:)
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i may very well be wrong, but i just cant see how this flashback has any reall point at this moment in the story if it just ends with sabo sailing off and becoming a pirate
I have to disagree this.
I believe the main point of this flashback is for the audience to see why Luffy risked his life and put off searching for his crew to rescue Ace. We, as the audience know what Luffy is like but characters in One Piece who are not familiar with Luffy would be puzzled to know why he would go to such great lengths to rescue Ace and the point of the flashback is to to show you that.
I still wouldn't discount Sabo joining the revolutionaries. Yes, Dragon appears to have left but he could return and we see Sabo join Dragon during the flashback.
If not during the flashback, we might find out that Sabo joined Dragon at a later time.
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I don't agree.
The biggest reason I think Sabo died (or at least appeared to die) is that Luffy declared Ace's his only brother "in this world".
To me, losing Sabo would only make Luffy and Ace closer to each other. The relentless efforts of Luffy toward saving Ace or any of his friends could very well be motivated by Sabo's death. Luffy would not want to see it again.
I'm not 100% sure Sabo will die. But I do think something tragic will happen in this flashback, and there must be some reason why Luffy didn't count Sabo as an existing brother recently.
That's a good point.
However, another explanation as to why Luffy declares Ace as his only brother is that something may happen in the flashback to make Luffy and Ace think Sabo is dead.
As of now, all they know is that Sabo is safe in high town and they have no clue that he has already set sail. Something catastrophic could happen to high town, in which all the inhabitants die and Ace and Luffy would presume Sabo to be dead.
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That's a good point.
However, another explanation as to why Luffy declares Ace as his only brother is that something may happen in the flashback to make Luffy and Ace think Sabo is dead.
As of now, all they know is that Sabo is safe in high town and they have no clue that he has already set sail. Something catastrophic could happen to high town, in which all the inhabitants die and Ace and Luffy would presume Sabo to be dead.
Exactly, and this works well with my theory. At the end of this chapter we see Sabo sailing off in his own boat while a crowd of townspeople (even nobles?) shout and scream at him. One shouting that he is going to ruin the ceremony that is being held in light of the Tenryuubito's arrival.
With this being set, I can picture Sabo's ship getting shot down by angered townspeople or even the Tenryuubito ships themselvesā¦making it look like he was blown up but was really washed away at sea to be saved by Dragon behind the scenes. The news and shock of a nobles son's death, especially one who ruined/almost ruined the Tenryuubito ceremony + is known to be reckless + seen with the likes of Bluejam Crew, Luffy, and Ace, should travel fast to Luffy and/or Ace.
To Ace, Luffy, Dandan and everyone in Goa Kingdom...Sabo is dead. To Dragon, Sabo is going to grow up to be a fine high ranked Revolutionary.
It could work.
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The fact that there are many scenes which involve Sabo musing about the concept of freedom, plus his interaction with Dragon, to me are very big clues that he will become a revolutionary. There's enough evidence to support either theory, but I think Sabo has too much potential to kill offā¦ though he is in danger of inheriting the poisoned chalice.
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the only thing i have against sabo being alive is that when has a flashback ever introduced a new character and given development at all for that person and they being alive current time?
only people i recall being alive non enemies that were in flashbacks besides who was having flashback are:
Zeff
Laboon
Iceburg
Nami's sister
Female Dr. on Drum
Kohzaout of all those, they were all known and shown BEFORE the flashback happened, except possibly Kohza. i dont' recall if he was or not.
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And why should Dragon disagree that Sabo would met Ace or Luffy? Or why should Sabo hint that he is alive all the time and even shitting on Ace's death?
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I strongly believe Sabo will die due to these reasons:
Elements of a tragic hero in literature:
(directly from http://shakespeare.nuvvo.com/lesson/4435-elements-of-a-tragic-hero-in-literature)What is a tragic hero?
The tragic hero is a man of noble stature. He is not an ordinary man, but a man with outstanding quality and greatness about him. His own destruction is for a greater cause or principle.
-> Sabo is a noble in One Piece society but as we have witnessed in the chapter before this, we've seen that he isn't an ordinary noble who has the 'heart' of a human. In this chapter, we've seen him trying to be free from his noble society, but this is obviously an attempt for a greater cause of principle as described above. Thus, though we still don't know what his destruction might be, due to the circumstances we've seen in the flashback, it's quite obvious that he will 'die' or 'disappear' like we've seen in all the other flashbacks.
Common characteristics of a tragic hero
According to Aristotle:Usually of noble birth
Hamartia - a.k.a. the tragic flaw that eventually leads to his downfall.
Peripeteia - a reversal of fortune brought about by the hero's tragic flaw
His actions result in an increase of self- awareness and self-knowledge
The audience must feel pity and fear for this character.
->Sabo is of noble birth
->Sabo's tragic flaw is that he couldn't wait for a better chance to be free. Of course, the security probably wasn't tight due to the Tenryuubito's coming, but he still should have waited for a better opportunity. However, this is only based on our knowledge, in other words, Sabo has no idea how those Tenryuubitos behave at all. Still, it's his tragic flaw after all.
->Sabo's attempt to be 'free' will end up 'unfreeing' him, which in this case, would be his death.
->In this case, Sabo will die as a result of his actions and Luffy, the main protagonist of this manga will have an increase of self-awareness and self-knowledge (this is already evident in Luffy's previous little flashbacks with Ace saying, 'I won't die').
->We will feel pity for this character but definitely no fear.This might have been a quick analysis, but if you look up in detail on Google, you will realize that Sabo's situation fits the characteristics of a tragic hero perfectly.
EDIT: also, Luffy already said in the manga that Ace is his only brother. We haven't seen why he's crazy about saving his brother. It's probably because Sabo, his another brother died.
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Luffy had a "brother" who died when he was a kid and we never heard about him until now.
I call BS. -
the only thing that i disagree with is the ->Sabo's attempt to be 'free' will end up 'unfreeing' him, by his death?
typically when someone is not free it is upon their death they finally say "i am finally free" So by your unfreeing him, it would make more sense for him to be enslaved.
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Pish Posh From Google.
Since you were able to find such analysis easily on Google just adds to the likeliness that Oda does NOT go this route at all.
587 chapters and people still don't get itā¦whatever outcome most of us are thinking or are researching to support...is more than likely far from the route that Oda is going to take...and he has proven this over and over and over and over and over again (list of "over"'s have been truncated).
Not to say this IS NOT going to happen but the likelihood is low...very low.
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I strongly believe Sabo will die due to these reasons:
Elements of a tragic hero in literature:
(directly from http://shakespeare.nuvvo.com/lesson/4435-elements-of-a-tragic-hero-in-literature)What is a tragic hero?
The tragic hero is a man of noble stature. He is not an ordinary man, but a man with outstanding quality and greatness about him. His own destruction is for a greater cause or principle.
-> Sabo is a noble in One Piece society but as we have witnessed in the chapter before this, we've seen that he isn't an ordinary noble who has the 'heart' of a human. In this chapter, we've seen him trying to be free from his noble society, but this is obviously an attempt for a greater cause of principle as described above. Thus, though we still don't know what his destruction might be, due to the circumstances we've seen in the flashback, it's quite obvious that he will 'die' or 'disappear' like we've seen in all the other flashbacks.
Common characteristics of a tragic hero
According to Aristotle:Usually of noble birth
Hamartia - a.k.a. the tragic flaw that eventually leads to his downfall.
Peripeteia - a reversal of fortune brought about by the hero's tragic flaw
His actions result in an increase of self- awareness and self-knowledge
The audience must feel pity and fear for this character.
->Sabo is of noble birth
->Sabo's tragic flaw is that he couldn't wait for a better chance to be free. Of course, the security probably wasn't tight due to the Tenryuubito's coming, but he still should have waited for a better opportunity. However, this is only based on our knowledge, in other words, Sabo has no idea how those Tenryuubitos behave at all. Still, it's his tragic flaw after all.
->Sabo's attempt to be 'free' will end up 'unfreeing' him, which in this case, would be his death.
->In this case, Sabo will die as a result of his actions and Luffy, the main protagonist of this manga will have an increase of self-awareness and self-knowledge (this is already evident in Luffy's previous little flashbacks with Ace saying, 'I won't die').
->We will feel pity for this character but definitely no fear.This might have been a quick analysis, but if you look up in detail on Google, you will realize that Sabo's situation fits the characteristics of a tragic hero perfectly.
EDIT: also, Luffy already said in the manga that Ace is his only brother. We haven't seen why he's crazy about saving his brother. It's probably because Sabo, his another brother died.
I think you're slightly misinterpreting the tragic flaw. For example King Lear's Tragic flaw is his morale "blindness". If anyone is a tragic hero it is Ace, he constantly refuses to backdown even when it isn't benefital to those around him.
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I think you're slightly misinterpreting the tragic flaw. For example King Lear's Tragic flaw is his morale "blindness". If anyone is a tragic hero it is Ace, he constantly refuses to backdown even when it isn't benefital to those around him.
Ace is definitely a tragic hero, but in this flashback, a mini-side-story that reveals the revelations of a character, Sabo is the tragic hero. Flaw doesn't necessarily has to be a characteristics like "blindness", http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=define%3Aflaw&aq=f&aqi=g-sx2g-c2g-sx1g-c1g-sx1&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=. It's 2 am in the morning here, so I am kind of sleepy though.
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Since you were able to find such analysis easily on Google just adds to the likeliness that Oda does NOT go this route at all.
587 chapters and people still don't get itā¦whatever outcome most of us are thinking or are researching to support...is more than likely far from the route that Oda is going to take...and he has proven this over and over and over and over and over again (list of "over"'s have been truncated).
Not to say this IS NOT going to happen but the likelihood is low...very low.
It doesn't matter if it's a manga, any 'story' written by human has its bounds no matter what. It's true that I've used Google, but this knowledge could easily be found in books such as The Hero with a Thousand Faces by Joeseph Campbell. Basically, whether it is a hero or story, there are 'models' that fit the general descriptions like I showed. Though the example is based on Aristotle's general definitions of a tragic hero, there are better ones out there in books or from Google search, which fit better with any tragic hero.
If you take a look at some of these and look at all the tragic heroes that we've seen in the previous flashbacks, they will be within the bounds of that 'model'. I don't have much time, so if you're really interestedā¦ Google it and search those things... I think Carl Jung(?) was the original man who started all these things.
EDIT: if you ask the same question (is Sabo a tragic hero?) to English teachers who studied literature and know these story models and hero models, they will probably tell you that he is.
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Ace is definitely a tragic hero, but in this flashback, a mini-side-story that reveals the revelations of a character, Sabo is the tragic hero. Flaw doesn't necessarily has to be a characteristics like "blindness", http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=define%3Aflaw&aq=f&aqi=g-sx2g-c2g-sx1g-c1g-sx1&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=. It's 2 am in the morning here, so I am kind of sleepy though.
Lul, I am aware brah, I am an English student. I dunno why u care if Sabo is a tragic hero or not, I know I dont care.
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It doesn't matter if it's a manga, any 'story' written by human has its bounds no matter what.
Granted that Sabo may or may not fit the model of a "tragic hero", it does not solidify or guarantee that Sabo will meet the fate of a "tragic hero". Obviously all stories have there bounds or else they wouldn't make sense but those bounds in relation to the story aren't always a straight shoot or predictableā¦
It takes a really good story writer to get you in the general stream of thinking and just when you came to your most well thought out conclusion...BAMā¦skull fucked from the back. Thank you Oda.
Oda has his own bounds when it comes to One Piece, one I can only assume being to be as less predictable as humanly possible, and although there are aspects of OP that were more predictable than others...generally Oda has skull fucked everyone on here at least once or twice if not hundreds of times...which adds to why we love OP so much.
Sabo could very well be the tragic hero but for someone who doesn't throw death around alot...it wouldn't seem beneficial to have the death of 2 "brothers" back to back...if anything Sabo being alive would help negate some of the vicious negatives that Luffy is experiencing and is going to experience because of Ace's death...some of these negatives can change Luffy forever...and most likely NOT in a positive way.
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Tragic hero or not, Oda isn't copying Sabo's story from a textbook. :P
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But really Oda is the only one I can imagine who can write that Sabo is alive and have a good explanation why Luffy velieves he is gone/dead, why Sabo never showed himself over all this years and why he didn't came to rescue Ace.
The only thing I can see isā¦ he is a slave
BTW
Can't wait for the color-spread -
i haven't really been anxious for spoilers lately, and only am jus tso we can get this stupid "where is sabo" "is sabo alive" "why is Ace only brother" ect. crap talk done.
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i haven't really been anxious for spoilers lately, and only am jus tso we can get this stupid "where is sabo" "is sabo alive" "why is Ace only brother" ect. crap talk done.
I just curious about 2 spoilers for the next weeksā¦
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The end of this flashback and SabO's outcome to stop the talking
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Luffy leaving AL to stolp the talking about Boa
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->Sabo's tragic flaw is that he couldn't wait for a better chance to be free. Of course, the security probably wasn't tight due to the Tenryuubito's coming, but he still should have waited for a better opportunity. However, this is only based on our knowledge, in other words, Sabo has no idea how those Tenryuubitos behave at all. Still, it's his tragic flaw after all.
->Sabo's attempt to be 'free' will end up 'unfreeing' him, which in this case, would be his death.
->In this case, Sabo will die as a result of his actions and Luffy, the main protagonist of this manga will have an increase of self-awareness and self-knowledge (this is already evident in Luffy's previous little flashbacks with Ace saying, 'I won't die').None of this is practical nor does it make sense. You're reaching with Sabo's tragic flaw and the importance of the flashback as it relates to Luffy just doesn't fit and doesn't connect why he'd flashback on this after Ace's death. The theme of this flashback so far and the implications since Luffy's reactions to Ace's death don't deal with him being the only one left, not being self-aware or self-knowledge.
Like someone else said Ace fits the tragic hero role much more than Sabo. This talk of trying to be free where you end up being "unfree" just sounds like cutting a life short without properly showing the flaw in the character's actions. Sabo deciding to leave now isn't revolving around his patience it's rooted to his complete repugnance of the nobles of Goa and their inhumane acts.
For ppl saying Ace's death reminds Luffy of Sabo's death wouldn't this importance have been better placed when Luffy was trying to free Ace during the war? Like while he was making his way to the scaffold? Similar to how Oda took a break in the EL arc to flashback to Robin's past.
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ok i thought of this last night and it made alot of sense.
Luffy invades the noble quarters looking for sabo and ends up face to face with Sabo's father. Instead of admitting that sabo ran away which would cause his family a loss of honor, Sabo's father tells luffy that sabo went out looking for luffy for ace and was killed by bandits/looters in the process. This explains why luffy says ace is his only brother.
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ok i thought of this last night and it made alot of sense.
Luffy invades the noble quarters looking for sabo and ends up face to face with Sabo's father. Instead of admitting that sabo ran away which would cause his family a loss of honor, Sabo's father tells luffy that sabo went out looking for luffy for ace and was killed by bandits/looters in the process. This explains why luffy says ace is his only brother.
And Sabo is such shtty pirate and brother that he never showed himself to Ace or Luffy over the years and even didn't came to save Ace
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and dragon is such a shitty father that he never showed himself to luffy or helped him during the war. if sabo survives he will most likely join the revolutionary army. therefore he would be taking orders from dragon.
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And Sabo is such shtty pirate and brother that he never showed himself to Ace or Luffy over the years and even didn't came to save Ace
and he obviously changed his name to, so that luffy or ace never heard about him in the papers or wanted lists
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@AdmiralYonkouMt.Bandit:
For ppl saying Ace's death reminds Luffy of Sabo's death wouldn't this importance have been better placed when Luffy was trying to free Ace during the war? Like while he was making his way to the scaffold? Similar to how Oda took a break in the EL arc to flashback to Robin's past.
Because there's probably more to this flashback than just Sabo's death (or apparent death).
And Sabo is such shtty pirate and brother that he never showed himself to Ace or Luffy over the years and even didn't came to save Ace
Yeah, I agree.
Why wouldn't Sabo search for Luffy and Ace after escaping? It's not like Luffy and Ace lived in some mysterious place Sabo never saw in his life. Sabo knew Dadan, Makino, Woop Slap, Garpā¦ he could find Luffy and Ace quite easily if he so wished.
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and dragon is such a shitty father that he never showed himself to luffy or helped him during the war. if sabo survives he will most likely join the revolutionary army. therefore he would be taking orders from dragon.
1. Dragon saved Luffy once
2. How could Dragon know that Luffy was going to the war? No one thought about that cuz the SHs were "annihilated by Kuma. How could he know that Boa would take him to ID, there he would be able to rescue all and go to the war in time?
You see the difference? Even some NW captains came to save Ace but not his brother?
And if he is a happy sailing pirate he would be, like Sammsy say, in the papers and at least Aceā¦ you know 2nd commander of the WBs... would know that.
EDIT
Here the fact that Dragon would have come if he knows Luffy would be there or Ace would be his son. So why shouldn't Sabo do the same...
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Yeah, I agree.
Why wouldn't Sabo search for Luffy and Ace after escaping? It's not like Luffy and Ace lived in some mysterious place Sabo never saw in his life. Sabo knew Dadan, Makino, Woop Slap, Garpā¦ he could find Luffy and Ace quite easily if he so wished.
All this is true if Sabo isn't evil in current time.
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I don't necessarily buy into this myself, but i've said it before and i'll say it again; there's plenty of possible scenarios in which Sabo is alive and not an asshole for not showing up to save Ace.
Maybe he's a slave, maybe he's with the revo's and was on the other side of the world on a mission at the time, maybe this or maybe that. ANYTHING could have happened here.
And that he never contacted Ace or Luffy isn't that unreasonable at all either. How long did Luffy go without seeing Garp? Without seeing Shanks? Or Ace? DRAGON?? If Ace wasn't on his mission to hunt down Blackbeard, who knows how long they might have gone without talking to each other. So obviously, just because two character are close doesn't mean they have to keep in consistent contact in this manga.
Now, like i said i don't know what i think about Sabo's fate for sure, but it is a distinct possibility that he is alive and not an asshole or evil now or whatever.
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I think Sabo is Brown Bear
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This post is deleted!
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Just a thought:
Maybe Dragon demands from every member of his army to completely leave their past behind (e.g. faking their death to break up all relationships and/or change their name to prevent leaving clues on who the members are) so they can completely focus on the mission? Then let Sabo be on a mission or stuck somewhere that it simply isn't possible to show up at the war(there are plenty possibilities in the One Piece world) and voila: Sabo lives :w00t:
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Luffy had a "brother" who died when he was a kid and we never heard about him until now.
I call BS.Oda has presented Luffy's character (for obvious storytelling reasons) as somebody who won't talk about alot of his past life. We didn't know that his grandfather was a marine hero until after enies lobby when he ran into Garp. Luffy never mentioned Ace to any of his crew until they ran into Ace in Arabasta. 2 apt examples of why Luffy wouldn't feel the need to fill his crew in on his past with Sabo
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Ha guys, seriously, this debate is useless! Everytime we start debating, Oda's ghost comes and reads every idea and find a counter-idea to it, Its very hard to guess what he has in mind!
Only 2 days left, and we knows whats sabo's destiny!
I still think that someone's (which is 90% Dragon or his allies) will help him to escape from the Celestical dragon.
Just my 2 cents..
Have a good night <3
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My guess is that even if Sabo survives, we won't know for a while. Oda will leave us with the same impression as Luffy's. Then, a few pages, chapters or arcs later, if Sabo survived, the veil is taken and we find the truth.
If he survives, of course.
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It's also possible that he survived, became a known pirate, found "his freedom", and died for a random reason after some time.
If I write something wrong, excuse my englishā¦.
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It's also possible that he survived, became a known pirate, found "his freedom", and died for a random reason after some time.
Well, that'd be a cheap way to use a good character.
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@Cyan:
Well, that'd be a cheap way to use a good character.
Not necessarily, he still could make Sabo's death happen in a meaningful way, like if he also was killed by the World Government, or by one of the Yonkou, or if he died while saving the oppressed people of some country, or something better that only Oda would be capable of thinkingā¦
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Sabo is with Kaidou
Sabo explained the situation to Kaido and ask him to help WB out
Shanks mis-interpreted Kaido's intention and stopped himShanks -> honest mistake
Sabo -> good guyReasoning
Ace and Sabo about the same strength level ā> Ace is (was) a commander for a yonkou ---> Sabo can be one tooor switch Kaido to the other yonkou (Big Mama or Lola's mom)
Luffy meets that yonkou because of the vive card
sees Sabo and gasp! -
or switch Kaido to the other yonkou (Big Mama or Lola's mom)
Luffy meets that yonkou because of the vive card
sees Sabo and gasp!gulpā¦.................................
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Moria and his crew were beaten up all by a child 10 years agoā¦ AWESOME
Yeah Sabo = Kaidou
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Moria and his crew were beaten up all by a child 10 years agoā¦ AWESOME
Yeah Sabo = Kaidou
where did you get that from,
if you are referring to my post I said Sabo is cruising with Kaidou as his commander
