@Shiebs It's possible, but Oda can throw a curveball as well. Some people think his boss may be Crocodile instead, and even point out he looks like Baroque Works' Mr. 10's concept art.
Chapter 1091: Sentomaru
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@Deicide said in Chapter 1091: Sentomaru:
I'm not sure if Caribou will be a factor in this arc or if he's meant to disappear for a while and reappear later in some unexpected place.
I have a feeling he'll have some relevance during this arc, mostly on the grounds that Caribou ate an entire Wapol Metal factory with his swamp powers during his cover story, and it's never been shown what became of it afterwards. Between that and Wapol himself reappearing in this arc, I can see that becoming a plot point. Especially if the Vega-Force 01 gets damaged.
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I'm wondering if Caribou escaped with the Egghead personnel... That would continue his amusing bad luck considering Saturn just ordered they be sunk.
Then maybe he is rescued by the Blackbeard ship?
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@danie I was about to point out that he should be in the SUnny or on Labophase, but now you reminded me that we last saw Zoro asking for him to leave before the brief moment the dome was disabled entirely, so I guess he could have gone down.
This also reminds me about something that has been bothering me a bit: there was Egghead personal in Labophase even after the CP arrival. They were responsible for helping the Vegapunks and even helped healing Atlas. But, for some reason, they just disappeared without a word.
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@Deicide said in Chapter 1091: Sentomaru:
@danie I was about to point out that he should be in the SUnny or on Labophase, but now you reminded me that we last saw Zoro asking for him to leave before the brief moment the dome was disabled entirely, so I guess he could have gone down.
This also reminds me about something that has been bothering me a bit: there was Egghead personal in Labophase even after the CP arrival. They were responsible for helping the Vegapunks and even helped healing Atlas. But, for some reason, they just disappeared without a word.
All research staff were ordered to evacuate to the Fabriophase.
There are repairman up there since Atlas was fixed, but they could be robots too, so they wouldn't "count".
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@King-Cannon said in Chapter 1091: Sentomaru:
All research staff were ordered to evacuate to the Fabriophase.
I don't remember that, I'll check it out, thanks.
About the ones who fixed Atlas, we never see them up close, but their way of talking didn't feel robotic. I need to check the order of events.
There's also Edison's cat assistant, but I guess he probably evacuated with the other workers.
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@Deicide said in Chapter 1091: Sentomaru:
@King-Cannon said in Chapter 1091: Sentomaru:
All research staff were ordered to evacuate to the Fabriophase.
I don't remember that, I'll check it out, thanks.
About the ones who fixed Atlas, we never see them up close, but their way of talking didn't feel robotic. I need to check the order of events.
There's also Edison's cat assistant, but I guess he probably evacuated with the other workers.
It is possible they evacuated during that short period where the Dome was inactive too. It was down for half a minute at least.
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@access-timeco how can you forget about our boy crocodile
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@access-timeco said in Chapter 1091: Sentomaru:
Has Luffy ever defeated the big arc boss without being defeated first since East Blue? Either a complete loss, or tricked into losing or just running from the battle to recover before going back… the only boss I’m not sure defeated Luffy at least once is Hody.
Not saying that just because has always been like this that will forever be. It’s precisely because it’s always been like this that would be interesting to go for something different… but his record definitely point to him losing to Kizaru in some manner (if Kizaru is the big enemy here).
Not sure how I missed this before, but here's why this is a constant: if you set a battle and the hero wins in his first try, even if it's a very long drawn out battle that leaves the hero very damaged, you cause the perception that the hero was stronger than the villain all along.
But if you have a 1st round to establish the villain as stronger, then the 2nd round causes the mentality that this villain is a big deal and we should be afraid of him, be it because he's more powerful or more cunning or treacherous or whatever he did to win the 1st round.
This can be done by proxy if you have the villain beat someone that is clearly stronger than the hero first. The point is that you need to establish where in the power ladder the villain is before the final conflict.
This, of course, is mostly for stories that rely on fights. But it's also works pretty well for other types of conflicts, like a detective having to outsmart the villain.
You want to make the villain a challenge, you need to show how challenging first. In a long series like One Piece, of course the formula will be very obvious, since there are so many arcs.
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@access-timeco said in Chapter 1091: Sentomaru:
Has Luffy ever defeated the big arc boss without being defeated first since East Blue? Either a complete loss, or tricked into losing or just running from the battle to recover before going back… the only boss I’m not sure defeated Luffy at least once is Hody.
Luffy didn't run from Doflamingo, but he did need the 10 minutes to recover. Also there's foxy, who he beat with the power of the fro.
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@andre said in Chapter 1091: Sentomaru:
Luffy didn't run from Doflamingo
There was a 1st round against Doflamingo, in which Law and Luffy teamed up, but Doffy was able to separate them and make Luffy fight Bellamy for a while.
That was a good measurement of Doffy's power, as he was able to fend off Luffy + Law enough to successfully separate them and defeat Law while Luffy was busy with a mere "underling".
It took quite a while for Luffy to get back and start Round 2. In this one, Law revealed his card and used the radio knife attack to severely weaken Doflamingo. And yet again Doflamingo defeat Law and was shown to be too resilient for Gear 2 and too fast for Gear 3. That's when Luffy finally pulled off Gear 4.
And then Doflamingo, while overpowered by Luffy, still outlasted Gear 4, requiring Luffy to run away and get some voluntary meat shields for 10 minutes before he could finally beat Doflamingo in Round 3.
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@Deicide That all feels different to me than other instances. Luffy lost to Crocodile, Lucci, Kaido, and others fair and square. Doflamingo in that round one only succeeded at separating Luffy and Luffy could have ended it at any time if he didn't see Bellamy as a friend.
The post-haki boost is debatable, but at the least not within the parameters of what Access said specifically: Luffy losing or running away. Having to run from Katakuri is just that, running. Having to get that 10 minutes is an expression of Luffy's power to endear himself to those around him.
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@andre Oda needs to make variations of the trope, in the case of Doflamingo he chose to show Doffy constantly outclassing his opponents (in what began as a 2v1!) rather than having Luffy suffer a total defeat and coming back later.
If we go by the beats of the fight, Doflamingo would have won in a straight single round 1v1, because, first, he wouldn't have been hit by the attacks enabled by Law's power (including a Red Hawk and the Radio Knife), and second, because Doflamingo would have outlasted Gear 4 and Luffy would be f'ed without the gladiators holding Doffy for 10 minutes.
There's still this sense of Luffy suffering one setback after another and having to regain his strength before he could finish off his opponent.
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I don't think it's very appropriate to bring up Luffy's track record with past arc antagonists simply because this isn't the first arc Borsalino is an arc antagonist to Luffy... Even if you don't want to count Sabaody since all he did there was finish Zoro off before being kept at bay by Rayleigh, he most definitely was an antagonist to Luffy in Marineford! Arguably the biggest one outside of Sakazuki.
Basically, i think Luffy is primed for payback! Maybe that doesn't mean a straight up defeat for Borsalino... He just at least won't succeed in taking out Vegapunk.
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Arc seems less about SH payback and more about VP/Kizaru/Gorosei/Bonney at this point. Most arcs are about the antagonist and the princess they are attached to anyway. Even if Oda wants to crowd the arc with some Supernova vs Yonko old timer mess as a backdrop.
The callbacks will probably appear like the crew miraculously escaping and/or the WG believing they didn't. Reports might just go along with them disappearing off the face of the Earth or something. Before that, I can see the relationships VP found in the Marines coming to the forefront.
"Within the Navy, there are many reasonable people to be found. Don't lose sight of the goal, Dragon". It would make sense for Bonney's revelation to be on pause until the climax. The crew as usual are just a tool/device to flesh out the princess and the antagonist drama. The history between them and the antagonist makes it so they aren't just fighting for the princess because the antagonist is picking on them.
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The antagonist's main objective is taking out Vegapunk though... If Luffy isn't even allowed to at least keep him at bay, why shouldn't Borsalino succeed? What's the point of him getting past Luffy if he won't be taking Vegapunk out? Is Luffy supposed to be succesful the second, third, or fourth time around at keeping Borsalino at bay; or avenge Vegapunk after Borsalino takes him out? Meh.
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I never said whether Luffy will stop fighting with Borsalino or not. Pointing out that this is less about SH vs Marines and more about VP's relationship with Kizaru due to princess/antagonist relationship.
Same as Vivi/Alabasta/Croc being the emotional focus. The crew are just guest/device pushing things forward for their friend and the poor locals.
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I wonder if the light gloves that were introduced at the beginning of the arc will be relevant? Them being used against Kizaru would imply Luffy is either losing this round or that it is geting interrupted at least.
Or we got another fake chekhov's gun -
I think we'll have an unambiguous display of superiority from Luffy over Kizaru, but a flat out defeat of an admiral doesn't really feel at place here.
Back in Sabaody Kizaru merely displayed his superiority and couldn't deal any really damaging consequences before being interrupted. Despite being the unmistakable responsible for the complete defeat of the crew back in the day, there was never anything really personal about his actions .
He was just a benchmark of strength, and I think it's the same here.
There's no actual meat attached to his possible defeat, once it's stated without a doubt that his tier of power is not an unsurpassable wall for our heroes anymore, and instead they're playing in the same ballpark now, we can immediately move on.Also the cathartic payback can come from the intrinsic humiliating nature of G5, without having to arrive necessarily to a KO.
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@Alfiere said in Chapter 1091: Sentomaru:
Back in Sabaody Kizaru merely displayed his superiority and couldn't deal any really damaging consequences before being interrupted. Despite being the unmistakable responsible for the complete defeat of the crew back in the day, there was never anything really personal about his actions .
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@Rean said in Chapter 1091: Sentomaru:
@Alfiere said in Chapter 1091: Sentomaru:
Back in Sabaody Kizaru merely displayed his superiority and couldn't deal any really damaging consequences before being interrupted. Despite being the unmistakable responsible for the complete defeat of the crew back in the day, there was never anything really personal about his actions .
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How does the clip relate to the highlighted sentence?
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Did Kuma really have to do what he did because of Borsalino? Seems Rayleigh was perfectly capable of keeping him at bay... So technically it was just because of Sentomaru and the pacifista, no? Haha
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@danie Just go by 512. Not due to Kizaru specifically as you said. Zoro and Sanji could no longer make any real moves. Everyone was on the run.
The Marines had the place blocked off for the most part and the real target were the crew.
How would the crew escape with an injured Zoro and Sanji. Only Luffy and the others could do anything and they were mostly tapped out.
The CDs being harmed needed results as far as the crew being dealt with. I think Kuma knew that.
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@Cockycent Yeah, i understand the idea was that they couldn't just continue as they were... Just wanted to point out at that Borsalino's threat was effectively neutralized by Rayleigh after he simply took out Zoro.
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@danie said in Chapter 1091: Sentomaru:
I don't think it's very appropriate to bring up Luffy's track record with past arc antagonists simply because this isn't the first arc Borsalino is an arc antagonist to Luffy...
That's actually a very good point. Luffy already suffered a defeat by Kizaru, so even if Oda sticks to his pattern of having the boss beat Luffy once, he could still win the current fight anyways.
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So the two biggest things that may come from Kizaru's defeat.
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Saturn jumps in.
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Kizaru gets killed by Blackbeard Pirates for his fruit.
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It's a very big stretch, but I think as Luffy shows that he can keep up with Kizaru, this escalates into the others doing the same via other opponents including Kizaru with VP as somewhat of a "coach". This is where the gloves might come into play in theory along other devices that are "failures".
That has been an ongoing theme anyway. What you believe is true is all that matters. "Even if the world doesn't agree, I know that she is a living, breathing person" - Laboratory of Peace's Director VP.
Maybe Oda extents this to Kizaru and his beliefs/disposition. There is a chance that Kizaru feels the job has to be done, even if it appear brutal or vile. Something in his past justifies why he goe along with his obligations. VP has shown some similarities when addressing criticism or questions from Dragon and Jinbe about his alliance and works.
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@access-timeco said in Chapter 1091: Sentomaru:
That's actually a very good point. Luffy already suffered a defeat by Kizaru, so even if Oda sticks to his pattern of having the boss beat Luffy once, he could still win the current fight anyways.
The problem is that Luffy is in a complete different level from before, so the former encounter does not work to establish where in the power ladder Luffy and Kizaru are in relation to each other.
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Is Kizaru the big bad boss of this arc?
Or will someone else show up?
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@Shiebs We don't have enough to judge.
I think story-wise the "bid bad boss" of this arc is Saturn, but strength-wise? We don't know if Saturn is stronger than Kizaru.
Personally, I see Kizaru as the stronger between the two, but I may be wrong there. I just don't see how the very passive elders who live in a place where hardly any enemy can reach outdo Admirals that have been serving in the military all their lives.
But maybe Saturn is indeed stronger due to a broken DF instead of physical strength and haki.
Anyway, even if the "final boss" is Saturn rather than Kizaru, I can still see this match-up going bad for Luffy, since it's also a strength comparison "by proxy". By making "number 2" be a match for Luffy, it implies "number 1" is an even greater challenge.
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@Deicide said in Chapter 1091: Sentomaru:
@access-timeco said in Chapter 1091: Sentomaru:
That's actually a very good point. Luffy already suffered a defeat by Kizaru, so even if Oda sticks to his pattern of having the boss beat Luffy once, he could still win the current fight anyways.
The problem is that Luffy is in a complete different level from before, so the former encounter does not work to establish where in the power ladder Luffy and Kizaru are in relation to each other.
Yes, exactly. The point(at least at first) will be to show Luffy has closed the power gap! Of course that doesn't mean Luffy has to defeat him. He just has to stop him from taking out Vegapunk.
I sure hope Borsalino doesn't get past him only for Luffy to then avenge Vegapunk... That sounds worse to me than Luffy simply keeping Borsalino at bay.
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@electricmastro said in Chapter 1091: Sentomaru:
Kizaru gets killed by Blackbeard Pirates for his fruit.
I hope not. Kizaru is one of my fav characters
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Imagine if after all these discussions about whether or not Luffy should lose their first match or just barely win, he manages to punch an Enelface out of Kizaru next chapter.
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@Alfiere said in Chapter 1091: Sentomaru:
@Rean said in Chapter 1091: Sentomaru:
@Alfiere said in Chapter 1091: Sentomaru:
Back in Sabaody Kizaru merely displayed his superiority and couldn't deal any really damaging consequences before being interrupted. Despite being the unmistakable responsible for the complete defeat of the crew back in the day, there was never anything really personal about his actions .
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How does the clip relate to the highlighted sentence?
There's nothing more personal to Luffy and his crew than being one of the direct causes of his crew's dissolution at Sabaody. It's a personal low for him that hasn't been matched until the post-Marineford moment with Jinbe (which surprise surprise, Kizaru was also heavily involved in).
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Yeah, it's personal for the Straw Hats but it never was for Borsalino
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@Rean that's what I said in the sentence immediately before the one you bolded. Kizaru just showed up and demonstrated that Luffy had gone in way past his depth, but it could have been any other strong marine in his stead and nothing would have changed. It was Kuma that did "the thing" back then, Borsalino was just serving as a very hard brick wall.
Also calling him "heavily involved" in marineford is quite the overstatement. He was there, doing his job, just like here and in Sabaody. That's why I don't feel it necessary to go beyond the assessment that Luffy can effectively handle him now, there's little to no pathos to squeeze out of this emotionless bureaucrat's defeat.
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@Rean said in Chapter 1091: Sentomaru:
@Alfiere said in Chapter 1091: Sentomaru:
@Rean said in Chapter 1091: Sentomaru:
@Alfiere said in Chapter 1091: Sentomaru:
Back in Sabaody Kizaru merely displayed his superiority and couldn't deal any really damaging consequences before being interrupted. Despite being the unmistakable responsible for the complete defeat of the crew back in the day, there was never anything really personal about his actions .
?????
?????
How does the clip relate to the highlighted sentence?
There's nothing more personal to Luffy and his crew than being one of the direct causes of his crew's dissolution at Sabaody. It's a personal low for him that hasn't been matched until the post-Marineford moment with Jinbe (which surprise surprise, Kizaru was also heavily involved in).
Except that's not Kizaru's personal fault. He was just doing his job.
Luffy himself admits that this is due to his own weakness, not because Kizaru was particularly mean to him.
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I know the story itself is making callbacks to Sabaody, but it's in Marineford where Borsalino is truly an antagonist to Luffy... Sakazuki outdid him in the end but it's Borsalino who is constantly hounding him from beginning to end.
Honestly, he seemed like he had a grudge against Luffy because he "escaped" Sabaody! Haha
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@danie I dunno, Kizaru appeared very uninterested in Luffy in Marineford. At a certain point, he even kicks a worn out Luffy back to Whitebeard, saying it's too early for him to be there, instead of, you know, killing Luffy in the spot with his lasers.
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Kizaru's dialogue seem like he doesn't want to hear babbling from the CDs in that 1 panel from the war. The rest is just him getting in the way of everyone and not just Luffy. He commended Luffy for his effort during that time as well.
Aokiji got a couple hits in too. I think it right before Marco kicked him that he stabbed Luffy with an ice spear. I wouldn't call it a grudge with Kizaru. Doesn't seem as passionate as Akainu, but is relentless at times. Akainu is in my top 5 characters. With this arc, Oda could potentially move Kizaru into my top 10.
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Yeah, I didn't got any preference about getting in Luffy's way during Marineford.
But I think that's beyond the point. Kizaru is not the character whose perspective matters when it comes to dictating the story. It's the SH's, and Oda made pretty clear in this chapter through their reactions to Kizaru's presence that they do relate him to their past bad memories and failure, so to them it is personal.
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A lot has been said about VP utilizing Kizaru's ability, see they arrive together when meeting Sentomaru, but no direct comment from either on each other. All of their comments concerning each other are analytical or procedural outside of the line that Viz took out. Part of why I didn't love the change. No real sentiment. Most of the comments have been about Sentomaru who is out of the way or the crew watching and being worried or confrontational due to their history.
Oda might be attempting to get the crew's emotional connection to Kizaru out the way, then get the real drama between him and VP started.
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@Deicide So killing Luffy on the spot with lasers would have shown Interest? Haha, stuff like kicking Luffy while he is down is why i say he had a grudge... Their was no need to do that. Luffy was done at that point. Just bullying and disrespect.
You know when he should have killed Luffy on the spot with lasers? When he is about to free Ace... But instead he shoots the key! Hahahaha
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@danie He made a comment that Luffy shouldn't be there and kicked Luffy back to safety. How is that showing a grudge?
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@Deicide I think you may be confusing things because that was like the third time he kicked Luffy right after lasering him... He said something about guts and power and then talked shit to Whitebeard for letting someone like Luffy lead the charge... Maybe grudge is the wrong word... Contempt? Yeah, i think it's more like contempt.
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@trollatron786 said in Chapter 1091: Sentomaru:
@electricmastro said in Chapter 1091: Sentomaru:
Kizaru gets killed by Blackbeard Pirates for his fruit.
I hope not. Kizaru is one of my fav characters
And Blackbeard is a favorite for many as well. So we’ll have to see what happens to Kizaru in relation to Blackbeard then.
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@danie To me it felt like Kizaru was trolling Luffy for being weak, but also had no special desire to capture or kill him, so he was trying to send him away from the battle.
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@Deicide any chance there’s a character we haven’t seen yet that might become a surprise villain? Not Kizaru or Saturn?
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@Shiebs I don't know. If Oda wants, I could see this battle escalating with more arrivals and even the other Admirals being involved, but I don't know right now how likely is that.
I'd say the most likely big bad of the arc is Saturn. He's the one that has been hyped to be the top dog here. It doesn't mean he's the strongest, he could be a "chessmaster" type of character who turns battles by making clever tactical decisions and stacks advantages to bolster his chances in combat. But, given how Shonen logic usually works, there's also the possibility that Saturn is really really strong.
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@Deicide I really don’t know how I feel about the idea of the five elder stars being super powerful beings, I thought they were just wise rulers
It kind of feels weird for them to be super strong admiral level characters