It really all boils down to Yamato seeing how virgin MomOden looks like and seeing the Chad Joyboy.
Either Yamato has a greater purpose to staying in the country or going with Luffy, reminiscent of Vivi's predicament.
It really all boils down to Yamato seeing how virgin MomOden looks like and seeing the Chad Joyboy.
Either Yamato has a greater purpose to staying in the country or going with Luffy, reminiscent of Vivi's predicament.
It
She's already not very impressed by the one who actually considered surrender.
Absolutely. But that might also a be something that tells her to stay behind as Momo as he is now clearly shouldn't be left in charge of Wano without someone like Yamato to guide him on his way. The Scabbards don't cut it. Yamato is more Oden than all of those guys combined. That's what both Wano and Momo need.
Whatever reason people keep believing Hiyori doesnt exist, or that wouldnt/shouldnt have a role in Momo's life.
Hiyori is just as mature, is an actual Kozuki, and she's even have a greater insight than Yamato on the problems of Wano, since she's lived there her whole life.
Heck, she's likely hiding a lot of money from all those guys she kept scamming, to use it along with Momo in rebuilding Wano.
Also, unlike with Yamato, in which Momo would be just a burden in her real dreams, Hiyori would have genuine interest in spending her life in the service of the Wano-kunians.
The Scabbards don't cut it. Yamato is more Oden than all of those guys combined. That's what both Wano and Momo need.
That might be a little dismissive considering how they all risked their lives against Kaido despite not being the same as Oden. Raizo was even willing to get burned in his battle against Fukurokuju. Heck, Luffy and Zoro aren't the same as Oden, and they still got pretty far. I think it goes to show that you don’t need to be the same as someone like Oden to accomplish great things, which is what I think both Momo and Yamato will find out soon enough.
I honestly just saw the scene as more display that Yamato's shaping up to be their own leader in charge of their own people/crew. It seems a bit above and beyond what a regular/new strawhat would be doing in this consistent relationship with Momo.
I honestly just saw the scene as more display that Yamato's shaping up to be their own leader in charge of their own people/crew. It seems a bit above and beyond what a regular/new strawhat would be doing in this consistent relationship with Momo.
Well Franky and Jinbe have been their own bosses, and Zoro has the qualities of a king, yet they still choose to follow Luffy, so I don’t think stuff like that would be above Yamato either.
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Whatever reason people keep believing Hiyori doesnt exist, or that wouldnt/shouldnt have a role in Momo's life.
Hiyori is just as mature, is an actual Kozuki, and she's even have a greater insight than Yamato on the problems of Wano, since she's lived there her whole life.
Heck, she's likely hiding a lot of money from all those guys she kept scamming, to use it along with Momo in rebuilding Wano.
Also, unlike with Yamato, in which Momo would be just a burden in her real dreams, Hiyori would have genuine interest in spending her life in the service of the Wano-kunians.
Indeed, Hiyori not only has the burden of her dad Oden having gotten boiled and her mom having gotten shot having hanged over her for 20 years, but also her having gotten to know the burdens of the Wano people she had interacted with alongside Denjiro for all those years. To make her out to be inferior compared to Yamato would be like saying that she was too weak to have braved through the burden of Orochi's tyranny for all those years, which I think by all means isn't quite the case. She hasn't expressed a desire to leave either, and although I don't know how Hiyori and Momo's dynamic would be now, I also think I know enough from what I've seen to be sure that she would be a brave encourager alongside her brother, even if she's not the same as Yamato.
That might be a little dismissive considering how they all risked their lives against Kaido despite not being the same as Oden. Raizo was even willing to get burned in his battle against Fukurokuju. Heck, Luffy and Zoro are the same as Oden, and they still got pretty far. I think it goes to show that you don’t need to be the same as someone like Oden to accomplish great things, which is what I think both Momo and Yamato will find out soon enough.
I'm not dismissing their desire to help their country but their qualities to be more but just support for Momo. Yes, they would die fir Momo and would helpfully guide him on his way. But still none of them comes across as the guy to actually have strong enough of a pressence to act as the father figure Momo so desperately needs if he not only wants to follow in his footsteps but actually accomplish what Oden couldn't. Yamato definitely has proven to be a strong personality.
Whatever reason people keep believing Hiyori doesnt exist, or that wouldnt/shouldnt have a role in Momo's life.
Hiyori is just as mature, is an actual Kozuki, and she's even have a greater insight than Yamato on the problems of Wano, since she's lived there her whole life.
Heck, she's likely hiding a lot of money from all those guys she kept scamming, to use it along with Momo in rebuilding Wano.
Also, unlike with Yamato, in which Momo would be just a burden in her real dreams, Hiyori would have genuine interest in spending her life in the service of the Wano-kunians.
Care to show us all of these Hiyori/Momo interactions that are somehow more impactful than the Yamato/Momo ones? I don't recall any.
I'm not dismissing their desire to help their country but their qualities to be more but just support for Momo. Yes, they would die fir Momo and would helpfully guide him on his way. But still none of them comes across as the guy to actually have strong enough of a pressence to act as the father figure Momo so desperately needs if he not only wants to follow in his footsteps but actually accomplish what Oden couldn't. Yamato definitely has proven to be a strong personality.
Basically. How many of them would've smacked Momo on his head like Yamato?
Care to show us all of these Hiyori/Momo interactions that are somehow more impactful than the Yamato/Momo ones? I don't recall any.
Its been established they wouldnt reunite until after the battle is over, I find it a silly rule since they both could've died without ever meeting again, same with Kinemon and O-tsuru.
But there's build-up towards their reunion, chances are, Yamato's really just temporarily fulfilling the big sis role until they finally meet again, she'll have no more business with Momo once the battle is over.
Its been established they wouldnt reunite until after the battle is over, I find it a silly rule since they both could've died without ever meeting again, same with Kinemon and O-tsuru.
But there's build-up towards their reunion, chances are, Yamato's really just temporarily fulfilling the big sis role until they finally meet again, she'll have no more business with Momo once the battle is over.
They will absolutely meet up. There's no dispute there. You seem to be insinuating that Hiyori will somehow usurp Yamato as an influence or example for Momo. There hasn't been anything in the story to point to that so far. And with that being the case, why is there an assumption that Hiyori will have more importance or influence than someone who has protected Momo, trained him, helped him to see how important his is as a leader, said he would die for him, and asked him to die together?
You saying that Yamato's "temporarily" filling in a role is not based on anything other than your assumption that that must be what's happening because otherwise, it would mean that Yamato is a central character in Momo's character arc, which therefore would give legitimacy to the concept of Yamato staying on Wano. You can make the argument that Yamato will still leave without making up stuff about Hiyori.
They will absolutely meet up. There's no dispute there. You seem to be insinuating that Hiyori will somehow usurp Yamato as an influence or example for Momo. There hasn't been anything in the story to point to that so far. And with that being the case, why is there an assumption that Hiyori will have more importance or influence than someone who has protected Momo, trained him, helped him to see how important his is as a leader, said he would die for him, and asked him to die together?
You saying that Yamato's "temporarily" filling in a role is not based on anything other than your assumption that that must be what's happening because otherwise, it would mean that Yamato is a central character in Momo's character arc, which therefore would give legitimacy to the concept of Yamato staying on Wano. You can make the argument that Yamato will still leave without making up stuff about Hiyori.
Yamato is the real usurper here.
Hiyori is Momo's real family, doesnt want to sail out, and is well aware of Wano's biggest problems.
Rebecca didnt stuck to Luffy upon meeting with Kyros again(which she had forgotten the existence of).
I dont see Momo having eyes for anyone else when his are going to be covered in tears when he finally reunites with her, and I dont see Hiyori being sidelined by someone who doesnt really want to stay in Wano to begin with.
And I'm saying it the same way Nami acted as big sis of Mocha, Franky as Big Bro of his pals back in Water 7 and heck, even Chopper as big bro of Carrot.
Yeah, its rather usual seeing the SH's playing this sort of temporary roles.
I'm not dismissing their desire to help their country but their qualities to be more but just support for Momo. Yes, they would die fir Momo and would helpfully guide him on his way. But still none of them comes across as the guy to actually have strong enough of a pressence to act as the father figure Momo so desperately needs if he not only wants to follow in his footsteps but actually accomplish what Oden couldn't. Yamato definitely has proven to be a strong personality.
By the end of this Momo needs to be his own man and as leader. Not as someone who still needs a father figure. Especially from Yamato who isn’t that at all.
@Zik:
By the end of this Momo needs to be his own man and as leader. Not as someone who still needs a father figure. Especially from Yamato who isn’t that at all.
Momo is still a 8-year-old kid, no matter how he looks.
He can't mature 20 years in half a night.
I'm not dismissing their desire to help their country but their qualities to be more but just support for Momo. Yes, they would die fir Momo and would helpfully guide him on his way. But still none of them comes across as the guy to actually have strong enough of a pressence to act as the father figure Momo so desperately needs if he not only wants to follow in his footsteps but actually accomplish what Oden couldn't. Yamato definitely has proven to be a strong personality.
Kinemon even yelled at Momo at Punk Hazard that it's ok to eat the food Sanji made and Momo in turn remembered him as a father figure willing help him out even during when Kaido hit him straight on the head, even though Kinemon isn't his biological dad. Can he really not be a good father figure at all?
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Momo is still a 8-year-old kid, no matter how he looks.
He can't mature 20 years in half a night.
Implying that Yamato can automatically mature him in half a night then? At any rate, like Luffy said, Momo is the one in charge, and that he's capable enough to have his maturity to shine through despite his moments of doubt.
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Its been established they wouldnt reunite until after the battle is over, I find it a silly rule since they both could've died without ever meeting again, same with Kinemon and O-tsuru.
But there's build-up towards their reunion, chances are, Yamato's really just temporarily fulfilling the big sis role until they finally meet again, she'll have no more business with Momo once the battle is over.
Yep, not really fair in any case at all to talk of Hiyori as if she's unable to have impactful interactions with Momo even though she's different from 20 years ago and that the story isn't meant to have them reunite yet due to the circumstances right now.
I don't understand why Momo needs Yamato, I get there bonding, that's fine
But please explain to me why it is 100% necessary for Yamato to stay in Wano when this is all finished, what does Yamato bring to the table that no one else can, that makes it essential for him to stay behind
Because I don't get it, at all
What can he give that Kinemon, Raizo, denjiro, Ashura, Dog Storm, Cat Viper, Kawamatsu, Kikunojo, Izo, shinobu, Hyogoro, Omasa, Tsunagoro, Cho, Yatappe, Tama, Tenguyama Hitetsu and Hiyori can't do
Rather than circumstances, it really was just a dummy dummy dumb rule imposed by Oda to not having'em reunite the momemt Momo came back to Wano.
It could be Hiyori right now the one smacking Momo in the head and telling him why he must not surrender.
I believe, chances are once Momo reunites with Hiyori, it'll be when Yamato finally also meet her new found family as well among the SH's.
Momo/Yamato interactions dont seem any different from Usopp protecting Kinemon, Chopper spending time with Hyogoro, Nami taking care of O-Tama, yeah, the SH's are getting along with the locals, it only makes lot of sense to me that Yamato, as a to be-SH, gets to spent time with the least random Wano-kunian, since she understands better than any other SH's the endurance and suffering of the people of Wano.
Kinemon even yelled at Momo at Punk Hazard that it's ok to eat the food Sanji made and Momo in turn remembered him as a father figure willing help him out even during when Kaido hit him straight on the head, even though Kinemon isn't his biological dad. Can he really not be a good father figure at all?
I'm not saying that he has no qualities at all. My bad if it came across like that. What I mean is that considering what the entire samurai-shogun relation thing entails, there's the aspect of obedience that I don't see Yamato having so far. I know there's plenty of stories where a subordinate raised a leader and became a father/mother figure to them. So I'm not saying it's out of the question. I just see Yamato bringing one thing to the table the others don't.
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@Zik:
By the end of this Momo needs to be his own man and as leader. Not as someone who still needs a father figure. Especially from Yamato who isn’t that at all.
Then how about a loving wife who backs her husband? :ninja: Behind every great man there's a great woman;)
But on a more serious note, you're righr that Momo needs to be hus own man. The point is, he's not there yet as the current chapter proves. And he won't get there over night. Yamato or not, Momo definitely needs someone to help him on his way. Even he he most likely looks like Oden now, he's still a child inside.
Implying that Yamato can automatically mature him in hat a night then?
Uh? No. That's the opposite of what I meant. Momo will need help in the long run.
At any rate, like Luffy said, Momo is the one in charge, and that he's capable enough to have his maturity to shine through despite his moments of doubt.
He's still a child that will have doubts and lacks maturity for certain decisions.
I don't understand why Momo needs Yamato, I get there bonding, that's fine
But please explain to me why it is 100% necessary for Yamato to stay in Wano when this is all finished, what does Yamato bring to the table that no one else can, that makes it essential for him to stay behind
Because I don't get it, at all
What can he give that Kinemon, Raizo, denjiro, Ashura, Dog Storm, Cat Viper, Kawamatsu, Kikunojo, Izo, shinobu, Hyogoro, Omasa, Tsunagoro, Cho, Yatappe, Tama, Tenguyama Hitetsu and Hiyori can't do
Bingo bango right on the money there.
I get that Momo's character can be open to needing encouragement, but for Momo to place Yamato as the main one to baby him would just be ignorant of him to ignore everyone else who has been helping him out for longer or is very much committed and willing to help him out directly at Wano in the long run.
Basically, if the people that are so invested in Momo's story to the point that they'll be highly insistent on Yamato being the one to be babying Momo for the rest of her entire life on Wano, then I can reasonably expect them to be talking about everyone else in Momo's story and what they could or couldn't do for him.
Because no matter how one talks about it, Yamato has not been the only one in Momo's life, and if nothing else, if Momo is really so pathetic and not ready to become shogun as some are implying him to be, then Momo can always go with Yamato with Luffy, and that the older Hiyori could be the new shogun then, because someone who's so helpless and needing to be babied shouldn't be shogun after all, and not be the sort of person a wrecked country like Wano needs, does it?
What can he give that Kinemon, Raizo, denjiro, Ashura, Dog Storm, Cat Viper, Kawamatsu, Kikunojo, Izo, shinobu, Hyogoro, Omasa, Tsunagoro, Cho, Yatappe, Tama, Tenguyama Hitetsu and Hiyori can't do
He can give it to him straight, that's what. Yamato is real with him. He's not afraid to literally knock sense into Momo. He's Momo's friend, with actual insight he can provide without pulling his punches just because he's a kid or royalty. I don't know how Hiyori will factor in after all this, but their relationship as siblings isn't going to be the same as that of friends. The only two people to ever give it to Momo straight have been Luffy and Yamato. And if they both go, Momo will be left without a true confidante unless one of those listed people really picks up the slack on that front.
What can he give that Kinemon, Raizo, denjiro, Ashura, Dog Storm, Cat Viper, Kawamatsu, Kikunojo, Izo, shinobu, Hyogoro, Omasa, Tsunagoro, Cho, Yatappe, Tama, Tenguyama Hitetsu and Hiyori can't do
Shift pretty much already said it, Yamato can actually treat Momo as an equal. For all good intentions, suppprt and advice Momo can get from any of the scabbards, none has so far shown to treat him as an equal. They all put him on a pedestal. And what's more, they are not doing it because of his own accomplishments but because they were hus fathers retainers. Of course I wouldn't go as far as calling them mindless yesmen but they definitely have so far been portrayed as characters, who would not knock sense into Momo on equal footing. Only Luffy and Momo have done that so far. And every good leader needs someone to knock some sense into them.
He can give it to him straight, that's what. Yamato is real with him. He's not afraid to literally knock sense into Momo. He's Momo's friend, with actual insight he can provide without pulling his punches just because he's a kid or royalty. I don't know how Hiyori will factor in after all this, but their relationship as siblings isn't going to be the same as that of friends. The only two people to ever give it to Momo straight have been Luffy and Yamato. And if they both go, Momo will be left without a true confidante unless one of those listed people really picks up the slack on that front.
Alright, then I guess Momo going with Yamato it is then since he's not good enough to be shogun at this point.
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none has so far shown to treat him as an equal. They all put him on a pedestal. And what's more, they are not doing it because of his own accomplishments but because they were hus fathers retainers. Of course I wouldn't go as far as calling them mindless yesmen but they definitely have so far been portrayed as characters, who would not knock sense into Momo on equal footing.
hmm
hmm
That's the second time in a row, where a scene from a situation, in which Kinnemon and Momonosuke had to pretend that they are father and son. Of course Kinnemon can't go "Momonosuke-sama" in a situation where his intire goal is to hide, that Momo IS a Momonusoke-sama. And I never said, that Kinnemon cannot give advice, only that he doesn't approach Momo as an equal. Pretending to be on equal footing is not the same as actually thinking to be on equal footing.
As someone who is pretty much Yamato agnostic, I really don't get why his relationship with Momo and him joining need be mutually exclusive.
Like, we could have a neat bow of Yamato going "You know, maybe I should stay here and help you out" and then Momonosuke goes "No, through our freindship I have matured, I must be strong as a leader, you should be free rather than beholden to babysit me" And then you get a big emotional character moment, theres a tiny bit of pathos and drama to Yamato joining, everyone is happy.
Trying to argue that Yamato is definetely DEFINETELY not bonding with the character he's spent the lions share of his paneltime with for the sake of saying he will join seems a bit silly. You can think Yamato will join while acknowledging his current main showcased relationship is with Momonosuke.
That's the second time in a row, where a scene from a situation, in which Kinnemon and Momonosuke had to pretend that they are father and son. Of course Kinnemon can't go "Momonosuke-sama" in a situation where his intire goal is to hide, that Momo IS a Momonusoke-sama. And I never said, that Kinnemon cannot give advice, only that he doesn't approach Momo as an equal. Pretending to be on equal footing does not mean he thinks they are equal.
Not exactly pretending since tears don't lie like that.
Also, how does all this rule out Yamato not having put Momo on a pedestal to begin with because he's Oden's son and read about his role in the journal to begin with? Heck, those might be the only reasons she might be "being real" to him as you put it to begin with.
And really though, if Kinemon and the others know how to "pretend" how to be "real" with Momo, then I'm sure they'd know how to not pretend to be real with him.
I'm sorry, but I honestly refuse to believe they'd just baby Momo and fail to raise him up to be a competent and confident leader Momo himself is trying to be, because that would not only be letting Momo down, but also setting themselves up for failure and risk having the country they live in being more wrecked.
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@Daz:
As someone who is pretty much Yamato agnostic, I really don't get why his relationship with Momo and him joining need be mutually exclusive.
Like, we could have a neat bow of Yamato going "You know, maybe I should stay here and help you out" and then Momonosuke goes "No, through our freindship I have matured, I must be strong as a leader, you should be free rather than beholden to babysit me" And then you get a big emotional character moment, theres a tiny bit of pathos and drama to Yamato joining, everyone is happy.
Trying to argue that Yamato is definetely DEFINETELY not bonding with the character he's spent the lions share of his paneltime with for the sake of saying he will join seems a bit silly. You can think Yamato will join while acknowledging his current main showcased relationship is with Momonosuke.
Of course, even Jinbe for the people he admires and cares about at Fish-Man Island like Neptune and Shirahoshi didn't hold him back from going with Luffy, among other examples, if I'm allowed to use them.
@Daz:
Like, we could have a neat bow of Yamato going "You know, maybe I should stay here and help you out" and then Momonosuke goes "No, through our freindship I have matured, I must be strong as a leader, you should be free rather than beholden to babysit me" And then you get a big emotional character moment, theres a tiny bit of pathos and drama to Yamato joining, everyone is happy.
It is also worth saying that there's a side that's not willing to admit Momo would not let his incompetence ruin someone else's true dreams.
And is clearly not us.
It is also worth saying that there's a side that's not willing to admit Momo would not let his incompetence ruin someone else's true dreams.
And is clearly not us.
I mean, in order for the hypothetical scenario of "Momonosuke giving Yamato the thumbs up to leave" to work, Yamato needs to be conflicted about leaving in the first place, potentially because of Momonosukes insecurities.
Otherwise, what exactly are you thinking the payoff to all this time spent between the two characters is gonna be? I'm not really seeing many offers from the "Yamatos time with Momonosuke holds NO significance" group. If at the end of all this Yamato says "Anyway, as I stated before, I'm leaving" and Momo is off to the side with his sister or whatever, that seems rather flat and a waste of all this time, right?
@Daz:
I mean, in order for the hypothetical scenario of "Momonosuke giving Yamato the thumbs up to leave" to work, Yamato needs to be conflicted about leaving in the first place, potentially because of Momonosukes insecurities.
Otherwise, what exactly are you thinking the payoff to all this time spent between the two characters is gonna be? I'm not really seeing many offers from the "Yamatos time with Momonosuke holds NO significance" group. If at the end of all this Yamato says "Anyway, as I stated before, I'm leaving" and Momo is off to the side with his sister or whatever, that seems rather flat and a waste of all this time, right?
But Yamato is not conflicted and doesnt need Momo's approval to leave.
Thats headcannoning getting in the way of what the actual payoff Oda would have in mind, if he has any, cause well, there's been like so many things we expected it to end differently and with greater focus on it, and instead, just to put an example;
No Carrot, move aside, let me just finish off this bastard and mostly off-panel!
So I would not fanfic too much into it.
As I stated few pages ago, Oda's not been representing Momo and Yamato's relationship in any way outside the manga, either way, its Momo/Luffy, or Yamato/Luffy, but somehow, Momo and Yamato never mix, and well that's really not putting an effort into convincing us they belong together, I wouldnt be surprised if indeed, Momo just meets Hiyori and Yamato lets go on it on a 'Jeez, finally I'm done babysitting this unbearable toddler'.
And that's all about it.
But Yamato is not conflicted and doesnt need Momo's approval to leave.
Thats headcannoning getting in the way of what the actual payoff Oda would have in mind, if he has any, cause well, there's been like so many things we expected it to end differently and with greater focus on it, and instead, just to put an example;
No Carrot, move aside, let me just finish off this bastard and mostly off-panel!So I would not fanfic too much into it.
But I ask again, what do you ultimately think is the point of Yamato spending so much time with Momonosuke? Where does it lead? It leading nowhere would be a tremendously unsatisfying waste of time.
I mean, you're already speculating on a different future event for Yamato - him joining the crew - which you could just as easily call "headcanon" because, you know, it hasn't happened yet. So why refuse to consider the future trajectory of Yamato and Momonosukes relationship?
Its seems to me a double standard to go "I am so sure this [future development of plotline] is going to happen, I'm not even consider what [future development of this other plotline] will be, that'd be headcanon"
Not exactly pretending since tears don't lie like that.
The tears have nothing to do with the lie they made up to cover their true relations. The tears are showing how their emotional state in this current situation which has absolutely nothing to do with pretending to be father and son. It feels like you are grasping at straws now.
Also, how does all this rule out Yamato not having put Momo on a pedestal to begin with because he's Oden's son and read about his role in the journal to begin with? Heck, those might be the only reasons she might be "being real" to him as you put it to begin with.
If anything so far we've seen Yamato go "Momo, I'm your father" and not "MOMONOSUKE-SAMAAAAAAA!!!". So I'd side with what I see in the story instead of the opposite. And before you go that route. Saying that Yamato is willing to give her life for Momo doesn't equal putting Momo on a pedestal. Luffy and the entire Strawhat crew are putting their life for Momo too and none of them thinks that way. There's different ways to support someone with their life. And Yamato and the Scabbards are clearly different on how they approach this.
And really though, if Kinemon and the others know how to "pretend" how to be "real" with Momo, then I'm sure they'd know how to not pretend to be real with him.
I'm sorry, but I lost you here. What exactly are you trying to say with this?
I'm sorry, but I honestly refuse to believe they'd just baby Momo and fail to raise him up to be a competent and confident leader Momo himself is trying to be, because that would not only be letting Momo down, but also setting themselves up for failure and risk having the country they live in being more wrecked.
You pretty much explained it yourself. You refuse to believe that this is a valid possibility. That's not really a good basis for a constructive discussion. Surely you have heard that people can have the best of intentions leading them to make bad or downright terrible decisions. I would not go as far to say that the Scabbards would actually make that much bad decisions. But a situation where a mentors honest intentions doesn't necessarily lead to a flawless of teaching their lord is not an unheard of scenario. Things like this exist in both, in fiction and in the real world. What you believe is irrelevant.
@Daz:
But I ask again, what do you ultimately think is the point of Yamato spending so much time with Momonosuke? Where does it lead? It leading nowhere would be a tremendously unsatisfying waste of time.
It wouldnt the first time Oda didnt 'waste lots of time' in something that ended up in nothingness.
Yes, this leads nowhere really, Oda's been deliberately avoiding Yamato meeting the SH's, and if I had to provide any reason I would say he didnt want the SH's to react individually to Yamato being Kaido's daughter and also Oden, it'll be rather tiresome to be drawing it over and over again, nd instead, he likely plans to have them all react at once. Saves lots of panel time.
And well, to begin with, going with Momo was an specific mission assigned by Luffy, Yamato never willingly went to Momo, and yeah, its making it look more like an excuse to keep Yamato busy until the time to meet the SH's comes.
I mean, you're already speculating on a different future event for Yamato - him joining the crew - which you could just as easily call "headcanon" because, you know, it hasn't happened yet. So why refuse to consider the future trajectory of Yamato and Momonosukes relationship?
Main difference is, I'm basing on Yamato's declared intentions, of which she has said nothing on babysitting Momo permanently.
It wouldnt the first time Oda didnt 'waste lots of time' in something that ended up in nothingness.
Yes, this leads nowhere really, Oda's been deliberately avoiding Yamato meeting the SH's, and if I had to provide any reason I would say he didnt want the SH's to react individually to Yamato being Kaido's daughter and also Oden, it'll be rather tiresome to be drawing it over and over again, nd instead, he likely plans to have them all react at once. Saves lots of panel time.
And well, to begin with, going with Momo was an specific mission assigned by Luffy, Yamato never willingly went to Momo, and yeah, its making it look more like an excuse to keep Yamato busy until the time to meet the SH's comes.Main difference is, I'm basing on Yamato's declared intentions, of which she has said nothing on babysitting Momo permanently.
Just because Yamato made a statement doesn't mean anything after that point is completely irrelevant ad-libbed filler. Its like saying Brook could have spent the entire thriller bark arc camping out with Lola in the woods and then leave in the end just as he did in the actual manga, and that it'd have been just as good.
You're pretty much picking and choosing whether Oda is a competent writer or not; Yamatos statement of intent is as much a thing that needs to be resolved as anything else, you're just arbitratily assuming that Oda WILL adress this thing, while he WILL NOT adress other things.
@Daz:
Just because Yamato made a statement doesn't mean anything after that point is completely irrelevant ad-libbed filler. Its like saying Brook could have spent the entire thriller bark arc camping out with Lola in the woods and then leave in the end just as he did in the actual manga, and that it'd have been just as good.
You're pretty much picking and choosing whether Oda is a competent writer or not; Yamatos statement of intent is as much a thing that needs to be resolved as anything else, you're just arbitratily assuming that Oda WILL adress this thing, while he WILL NOT adress other things.
Yamato's repeated that statement like 5/6 times, of course I'm thinking that'll be addressed.
There's nothing to address regarding Momo, by comparission, Nami has spent lotta time with O-Tama, and she's even put her life on the line against BM and Ulti to protect her, which looks a lot more like a death sentence, than actually saying 'I'll die for you'. Even in the latest chapter, she's still there with Tama, Am I supposed to believe that Nami will give up on her dreams to stay in Wano and 'Guide' O-Tama?, Well no, and that simply because the manga is not really developing into Nami having to stay back with Tama, its not making it with Yamato either, should I trust other's fanfics then? Well that's also a no.
Main difference is, I'm basing on Yamato's declared intentions, of which she has said nothing on babysitting Momo permanently.
She has said nothing about babysitting Momo but a huge chunk of her motivations is to finish what Oden started and that's the exact opposite of seeing the world because Oden accomplished that goal, which lead him to a new goal of opening up Wano's boarders and enabling the dawn of the world one way or another. This isn't just dowe with the borders being opened.
To make one thing clear. I'm not saying as if it's an ultimate argument for Yamato staying behind. Far from it. I only want to point out that Yamatos motivations are not so clear stated that she wants only one thing and doesn't desire several things that could stand in each others way. But if someone is hellbent on Yamato joining then only the desires to leave are reflected. Yamato is a little more nuanced than that. And this actual leaves rooms for various outcomes and creates a good inner conflict for whatever she choses. She can be "I want to leave but Wano and Momo need me now" or "I want to help Wano and Momo through this crucial time of change but I want and have to go with Luffy". I find that both options add a bit spice to whatever Yamato goes with in the end.
The way I see it, Yamato bonding with Momonosuke is there to 1. establish something of a home and loved ones Yamato can return to once he has accomplished his dreams, 2. give a resolution to the plot thread how children don't bear the crimes of their ancestors and that this practice needs to stop, 3. split Oden's contradicting wishes and obligations into two, namely the desire to explore the world and the necessity to form Wano into a better place for the future, carrying on his legacy and doing a better job than he did due to not being able to do both
There's literally a piece of the puzzle that Yamato calls his bible missing, he's been wishing to leave and has reiterated that part time and time again and y'all be like "but then Momo has no pwoper fwiend".
Before Yamato spoke to Luffy, I thought he might join. When he made his declaration to Luffy and Luffy didn't respond directly to what was said, I felt from there it was up to Yamato.
Gaimon - was sure of himself
Brook - i'd love to
Robin - resolved and certain and said it herself
Yamato's sparring of words with his pops, lack of response from Luffy, and whole narrative with Momo has shown uncertainty. Mentally and physically shackled like those in Udon. Clearly wants to be free.
I don't think Oda has to provide a moment where Yamato has to explain or provide some sort of closure to Momo right before leaving. It wouldn't be something he left on the table if he doesn't do it. At the same time, it wouldn't be out of place for Oda to put it there as well. Both can work.
Its mostly about now and Yamato getting his priorities straight and resolving himself.
I do remember a certain character who almost lost their home and people. She selfishly abandoned them without getting approval or permission while there are examples of her peers pleading, requesting, and begging to go. Then 1 of her peers in that regard, that was allowed to go, died while she survived to perform a role on the ship and bond with multiple SHs. Then when she went missing for 2000 chapters, Oda decides to magically bring back her dead peer's words concerning the Straw Hats.
Yeah, he clearly hasn't closed the book there. 3 arcs with the crew, bonding with SHs, separated in multiple instances from her group to be within the crew, selfishly abandoning her duties and people, losing her mentor that is still in her head reminding her about the crew. Yup, I can name 6 side characters that didn't join and received all of that or more. Wait, can I????
I'm certainly not seeing wheres the connection between_{{Yamato treats Momo like shit}}_ and {{Yamato must give up on her dreams since no one else treats Momo like shit}}.
I dont recall Oda ever taking that route and heck, that's pretty much against the values of this series.
Franky(oh and Luffy, eey!), Treated Iceburg like poop, whereas everyone else had him on a sky level pedestal, and there was even a point made about Water 7 slowly drowning, and Franky still left, because there wasnt any need of him to keep reminding Iceburg he's poop, and it was never his responsability to do something about Water 7 drowning.
Momo doesnt need Yamato either, if any payoff, that's ocurring already in real time, Momo already had everyone else telling him what it was to live under Orochi, he probably needed to hear ir from the person who suffered the most under Kaido, what it'll be like to live under his Putin-esque rule, now's up to Momo to demonstrate he has understood, there's nothing else being implied in the matter.
And just like with Iceburg, Momo, Hiyori and the Scabbards are the ones responsible for rebuilding and reopening Wano, Yamato is not going to reduce or sideline any of these people's roles in the story.
What you believe is irrelevant.
That prob sums up your personality as well in that case.
It's not that I'm unwilling to listen to other peoples' arguments. I've listened to them, considered them, considered the material and context of the manga so far, and have repeated my opinion multiple times to people who seem unwilling to change their stance at all in regards to Momo being a bad leader and treating the scabbards and others as if they want to set themselves up for failure despite having waiting this entire time.
Call me irrelevant all you want if it makes you feel better, but don't just keep using like that as if people will suddenly feel obligated to believe your point and always agree with you rely on "this might happen or that might happen because it's possible" as opposed to what's happening right now and how the characters are feeling right now, because that pretty much won't work out for anybody.
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I'm certainly not seeing wheres the connection between_{{Yamato treats Momo like shit}}_ and {{Yamato must give up on her dreams since no one else treats Momo like shit}}.
I dont recall Oda ever taking that route and heck, that's pretty much against the values of this series.
Yep, which is weird why I'm pointed out as irrelevant, as opposed to wondering if it makes the values this series has been teaching us this entire time look less relevant. lol
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Franky(oh and Luffy, eey!), Treated Iceburg like poop, whereas everyone else had him on a sky level pedestal, and there was even a point made about Water 7 slowly drowning, and Franky still left, because there wasnt any need of him to keep reminding Iceburg he's poop, and it was never his responsability to do something about Water 7 drowning.
Momo doesnt need Yamato either, if any payoff, that's ocurring already in real time, Momo already had everyone else telling him what it was to live under Orochi, he probably needed to hear ir from the person who suffered the most under Kaido, what it'll be like to live under his Putin-esque rule, now's up to Momo to demonstrate he has understood, there's nothing else being implied in the matter.
And just like with Iceburg, Momo, Hiyori and the Scabbards are the ones responsible for rebuilding and reopening Wano, Yamato is not going to reduce or sideline any of these people's roles in the story.
True, and I’m sure we’ll just have to once again see how Kinemon, Hyogoro, and the others treat Momo after the dust all settles and realize how they’ll have to approach Wano going forward.
We can honestly argue back and forth all day as to if Yamato is the only one capable of being serious with Momo, but there might not be much benefit or fun to be had on that, since conversing about it gets to the point of needing to know things we just don’t know, since Raizo and the others haven’t approached Momo after the battle yet since, of course, the battle is still ongoing.
Momo is still a 8-year-old kid, no matter how he looks.
He can't mature 20 years in half a night.
Nothing I said was about maturity or ignores Momo being an 8 year old mentally. Perhaps reread what I’m actually talking about.
Momo has already shown the conviction and responsibility that it takes to be a leader. No need for someone stepping in as a father figure.
@Zik:
Nothing I said was about maturity or ignores Momo being an 8 year old mentally. Perhaps reread what I’m actually talking about.
Momo has already shown the conviction and responsibility that it takes to be a leader. No need for someone stepping in as a father figure.
Agreed. I agree that Momo has shown doubt, and needs moments of encouragement to push him along at times, but that's all they are, moments as opposed to his entire life which necessitates someone to come in as a new father to baby him the whole time. Even Luffy mentioned on Zou that Momo should step up himself as the new shogun he wants to be in doing things like asking for Luffy's help himself, and I'm willing to believe him.
That prob sums up your personality as well in that case.
It's not that I'm unwilling to listen to other peoples' arguments. I've listened to them, considered them, considered the material and context of the manga so far, and have repeated my opinion multiple times to people who seem unwilling to change their stance at all in regards to Momo being a bad leader and treating the scabbards and others as if they want to set themselves up for failure despite having waiting this entire time.
Call me irrelevant all you want if it makes you feel better, but don't just keep using like that as if people will suddenly feel obligated to believe your point and always agree with you rely on "this might happen or that might happen because it's possible" as opposed to what's happening right now and how the characters are feeling right now, because that pretty much won't work out for anybody.
I'm not calling you irrelevant I'm calling the your decision to chose to not believe something irrelevant which it just is considering the topic at hand. There's no need to get offended by that because I was not attacking you. I was just merely stating that your choice of words doesn't make for a working argument with what we've been discussing so far.
Yep, which is weird why I'm pointed out as irrelevant, as opposed to wondering if it makes the values this series has been teaching us this entire time look less relevant. lol
I already said, that I didn't call you personally irrelevant. But a "I honestly refuse to believe" statement ultimately proves nothing about the topic at hand and only showcases your personal emotionally attached desire for a story to go. I'm not saying being emotionally attached is a bad thing or should be avoided. But it simply is not something that helps to prove a point on subject matter that exists outside of ones own personal attachments. Hence it's irrelevant as a basis constructive discussion.
I already said, that I didn't call you personally irrelevant. But a "I honestly refuse to believe" statement ultimately proves nothing about the topic at hand and only showcases your personal emotionally attached desire for a story to go. I'm not saying being emotionally attached is a bad thing or should be avoided. But it simply is not something that helps to prove a point on subject matter that exists outside of ones own personal attachments. Hence it's irrelevant as a basis constructive discussion.
Dude, you're spending a lot of time trying to analyze the technicals on what I'm saying way too seriously rather than focusing more on why I'm trying to say it and having a meaningful conversation from there. Don't know what else to tell ya. lol
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Yamato's repeated that statement like 5/6 times, of course I'm thinking that'll be addressed.
There's nothing to address regarding Momo, by comparission, Nami has spent lotta time with O-Tama, and she's even put her life on the line against BM and Ulti to protect her, which looks a lot more like a death sentence, than actually saying 'I'll die for you'. Even in the latest chapter, she's still there with Tama, Am I supposed to believe that Nami will give up on her dreams to stay in Wano and 'Guide' O-Tama?, Well no, and that simply because the manga is not really developing into Nami having to stay back with Tama, its not making it with Yamato either, should I trust other's fanfics then? Well that's also a no.
Also true, Tama being a leader in her own right having tamed the gifters and leading them to help repair the Wano they previously tried destroying would make her a valuable contributor to its society in that regard I'm sure. Either someone like Nami would have to stay behind for her or she would have to come along since even Hitetsu couldn't get through to her like how Nami could.
Daz you haven’t voted yet, are you still unsure whether Yamato will join or not
Dude, you're spending a lot of time trying to analyze the technicals on what I'm saying way too seriously rather than focusing more on why I'm trying to say it and having a meaningful conversation from there. Don't know what else to tell ya. lol
Well, I was just trying to make sure that you don't mistakenly think, it was my intention to offend you. And surely you can't blame me for going the extra mile to make that clear, when your post itself spend some time going into details why you seem to take what I said. If you're not offended then good. But if you are then I had to make clear it was not my aim.
As far as the topic at hand is concerned, I repeat again that at this point I'm not saying that Yamato will stay behind anymore. I'm clearly pointing out that if Oda would go that route, then there are elements in the story that could provide an explenation why he would not have her join.
@Daz:
Just because Yamato made a statement doesn't mean anything after that point is completely irrelevant ad-libbed filler. Its like saying Brook could have spent the entire thriller bark arc camping out with Lola in the woods and then leave in the end just as he did in the actual manga, and that it'd have been just as good.
One also might as well say that Robin would always dedicate herself to working with Crocodile just by seeing her work with him and doing what he said, only for it to be revealed in the end that she personally never wanted to dedicate herself to him as she was more interested in the poneglyphs.
then there are elements in the story that could provide an explenation why he would not have her join.
But the options provided are just inherently evil(at best).
•Giving up on her dreams of sailing out.
•Willingly becoming a servant and prisioner of a place she no longer wants to be.
•Making her own crew with the Beast Pirates, yes, the literal people that saw her suffering her entire life and did nothing about it, or have been plain responsible and/or laugh at her mistreatment.
Might as well lets put Nami back in that room in AP to keep drawing maps, she'll be drowining in happiness.
Brook might want to be back in the Florian Triangle if there is Momo there to guide him
Oh ey, why didnt Robin made her own crew with the other Cipher Pools that werent Lucci or Spandam, I dont see any particular reason why she would be unhappy with them..
I mean, com'on..
But the options provided are just inherently evil(at best).
•Giving up on her dreams of sailing out.
•Willingly becoming a servant and prisioner of a place she no longer wants to be.
•Making her own crew with the Beast Pirates, yes, the literal people that saw her suffering her entire life and did nothing about it, or have been plain responsible and/or laugh at her mistreatment.Might as well lets put Nami back in that room in AP to keep drawing maps, she'll be drowining in happiness.
Brook might want to be back in the Florian Triangle if there is Momo there to guide him
Oh ey, why didnt Robin made her own crew with the other Cipher Pools that werent Lucci or Spandam, I dont see any particular reason why she would be unhappy with them..I mean, com'on..
I don't think evil is a proper term to describe the idea of someone giving up on their dreams. Sometimes life just forces us to make decisions that might go contradictory to our dreams. There's nothing evil in that. Personal sacrifice is also a part of a heroes journey.
However I agree that especially in a story like One Piece the route towards achieving the dreams is what the author has in mind for their heroes. But as I said before, Yamatos wishes are not as black and white as so many people make it out to be. Yes, she wants to set out to the sea and see the world with her own eyes. BUT she also wants to make Oden's dreams come true. And these are wishes he developed after achieving his previous dream of seeing the world. Oden wants to open Wano's borders and that way contribute to bringing the dawn to the world. This is not just a little footnote about the character. This is pretty much part of why we're dealing with this entire "I am Oden" nonesense to begin with. She doesn't just want to set sail. Yamatos goals are far more nuanced. But people only focus on the sailing out to see part of her character because that's what people want to see.
As I said previously, the entire situation can turn into a very interesting character moment for her. Option one "I want to stay here in this crucial time when Wano opens it's borders for the first time in centuries but right now I have to go with Luffy and see this through". Option two "I want to go out to sea but right now I have to be with Wano when the borders are opened". And I repeat. I'm just giving reasons of how there are estabished elements for the character that make Yamato staying for now, something that doesn't come out of the left field.
As far as your Nami, Robin and Brook comparisons are concerned, they don't relate to Yamato at all. Comparing Nami, who's been forced to draw maps for her mothers murderer is in no way shape or form the same situation as Yamato staying behind to realize the wishes of the person who's name and responsibility she has taken on for herself. Yamato staying behind to embrace her fathers exploding handcuffs would be a comparable scenario. But I'm not proposing something ridiculous like that.
I don't think evil is a proper term to describe the idea of someone giving up on their dreams.
The "evil" part is not herself wishing to put an end to her dreams, is thatyou guys want her to, when Yamato has never indicated she would.
Sometimes life just forces us to make decisions that might go contradictory to our dreams. There's nothing evil in that. Personal sacrifice is also a part of a heroes journey.
However I agree that especially in a story like One Piece the route towards achieving the dreams is what the author has in mind for their heroes. But as I said before, Yamatos wishes are not as black and white as so many people make it out to be. Yes, she wants to set out to the sea and see the world with her own eyes. BUT she also wants to make Oden's dreams come true. And these are wishes he developed after achieving his previous dream of seeing the world. Oden wants to open Wano's borders and that way contribute to bringing the dawn to the world. This is not just a little footnote about the character. This is pretty much part of why we're dealing with this entire "I am Oden" nonesense to begin with. She doesn't just want to set sail. Yamatos goals are far more nuanced. But people only focus on the sailing out to see part of her character because that's what people want to see.
As I said previously, the entire situation can turn into a very interesting character moment for her. Option one "I want to stay here in this crucial time when Wano opens it's borders for the first time in centuries but right now I have to go with Luffy and see this through". Option two "I want to go out to sea but right now I have to be with Wano when the borders are opened". And I repeat. I'm just giving reasons of how there are estabished elements for the character that make Yamato staying for now, something that doesn't come out of the left field.
As far as your Nami, Robin and Brook comparisons are concerned, they don't relate to Yamato at all. Comparing Nami, who's been forced to draw maps for her mothers murderer is in no way shape or form the same situation as Yamato staying behind to realize the wishes of the person who's name and responsibility she has taken on for herself. Yamato staying behind to embrace her fathers exploding handcuffs would be a comparable scenario. But I'm not proposing something ridiculous like that.
Main reason we focus on the sailing part, it because it leaves pretty clear how there isnt an ongoing conflict on her mind.
Leaving Wano in the hands of Momo and the Scabbards pretty much guarantees it'll be safe and it'll open its borders eventually, defeating Kaido alone, already fullfills that part of Oden's wishes.
That's why she's pretty on and confident on the other part of Oden's wishes about waiting Joyboy and support him in his journey.
It explains itself pretty clearly.
The "evil" part is not herself wishing to put an end to her dreams, is thatyou guys want her to, when Yamato has never indicated she would.
She has indicated several times though that she wants see finalize Odens dream. It's not something that "we" (whoever you actually mean by that) want her to, it's part of her character.
Main reason we focus on the sailing part, it because it leaves pretty clear how there isnt an ongoing conflict on her mind.
Perhaps that's because she has more urgent matters to think about now. Plus such inner conflicts usually come up the moment when you are actually one step before making such a big decision in your life.
Leaving Wano in the hands of Momo and the Scabbards pretty much guarantees it'll be safe and it'll open its borders eventually, defeating Kaido alone, already fullfills that part of Oden's wishes.
Oden wanted to see this through himself. He only passed that responsibility down to his retainers when he was about to die. If she really is that inspired by Oden to actually want to be him, then it would not be in character to leave the responsibility to others.
That's why she's pretty on and confident on the other part of Oden's wishes about waiting Joyboy and support him in his journey.
It explains itself pretty clearly.
She's been pretty clear on both parts. Wanting to see the world and wanting to make Oden's wishes come true. She so far hasn't abandoned either of them. That's only what you want to be the case but nowhere in the story has she made any clear statement that she's already put aside that integral part of her personal motivation. That has yet to happen.
But then again, she's made herself pretty clear that she'll leave once Kaido's overthrown.
Not a conflicting statement at all, nor indicating any intentions to stay and usurp Momo and The Scabbards role in the post Kaido Wano-era.