Kind of surprising that this is not consensus though, are you guys and girls not expecting him to be a total haki-machine when he fights?
He kinda feels like he would be Rayleigh 2.0, but younger and one-armed. I'm not that excited to see him in action.
If he starts shooting red lightning around like he does in Pirate Warriors though, that would be jumping the shark.
You think it's unreasonable to expect that the Emperor who is notorious for his Haki (even among other Emperors) can do what other people demonstrated already?
The other emperors and empress have more things going for them though. Shank's just pretty much has his "haki" and his sword so of course I would expect him to better at using it than they are. Although "Whitebeard" was apperantely really good at using it when he fought Roger despite having his fruit power already so Im not sure what to expect. Maybe Shanks will have some other ability besides "haki".
Haki blasts, Roger style?
Talking more summoning lightning blasts from the sky, Enel style.
Lolz.
But I admit the switch between sword & shotgun is cool. I actually forgot he had one.
Based on how Kaido's words resembled Toki's prophecy, I further suspect that Luffy is 1 of the 9 shadows and it wasn't really about the Scabbards
Based on how Kaido's words resembled Toki's prophecy, I further suspect that Luffy is 1 of the 9 shadows and it wasn't really about the Scabbards
It wasn't a real prophecy though.
Croc or Enel would never.
Wanna see the "ancient civilization destroyed" thing done really well? FFXIV did a great take on it. The bar's high for One Piece to beat.
Wait. Which prophecy wasn't real? I may have genuinely missed something no joke.
Toki's final words to the people of Wano. Through the use of her powers, she can effectively create a "prophecy" from their perspective. But for us readers, we know that she can't actually see the future, and was just going off of what Oden told her, as well as the fact that she teleported several of the Scabbards herself.
Hence why I never got why people are still trying to figure out who the nine shadows are. It's the Scabbards, it was always clear she was talking about them.
Toki's final words to the people of Wano. Through the use of her powers, she can effectively create a "prophecy" from their perspective. But for us readers, we know that she can't actually see the future, and was just going off of what Oden told her, as well as the fact that she teleported several of the Scabbards herself.
Hence why I never got why people are still trying to figure out who the nine shadows are. It's the Scabbards, it was always clear she was talking about them.
That part was always clear but I don't think that this is what people are trying to figure out here. I think that many people believe that Tokis words will turn out to be true BUT in a different way from what she originally meant. She meant the nine scabbards but it's not unlikely that the actual feat of really taking down Kaido will accomplished by other people than them. And people are trying to figure out who those people are. At least that's what I believe many people are going for.
It wasn't a real prophecy though.
That's how a lot of things work in OP. Something is implicated and it ends up resulting in that way, but not on purpose. So Toki, like Oden, had faith and took chances, but didn't know for sure that it will happen or who will do what exactly. They trusted the Scabbards.
That trust in the Scabbards resulted in getting an ally in Luffy. Oda uses Kaido to imply that Luffy cast a shadow that Kinemon is swathed in. This is more about Oda telling us, hence why I am going by Kaido's words that mirror the hopes and wishes of Toki and Oden. Kaido has been interested in if the Scabbards or Momo could show some semblance of fight or mettle like Oden.
Has it ever been said in the manga that Shanks has crazy level Haki? I always thought that was a reasonably shared headcannon of the community?
Well not explicitly. But implicitly when Shanks met Whitebeard on the Mobydick. When his pure „presence“ created cracks in the ships wood.
And the Second scene was when he stopped Akainus Lavafist with his sword.
Sure that doesn’t proof he has mastered all of the haki skills Jabra has mentioned e.g. future sight, but gives imho legit clues that Shanks power and position comes from some kind of inferior haki.
Well not explicitly. But implicitly when Shanks met Whitebeard on the Mobydick. When his pure „presence“ created cracks in the ships wood.
And the Second scene was when he stopped Akainus Lavafist with his sword.
Sure that doesn’t proof he has mastered all of the haki skills Jabra has mentioned e.g. future sight, but gives imho legit clues that Shanks power and position comes from some kind of inferior haki.
Right, we have his feats and can easily surmise that he has great COA and King's Haki. It seems fitting that he'd have strong COO as well, but there's no hard evidence at this point. It's not a thing I doubt, but it's still a headcannon at this point that Haki is precisely Shank's thing.
I thought Shanks main thing was to stab people with the pointy end
That's how a lot of things work in OP. Something is implicated and it ends up resulting in that way, but not on purpose. So Toki, like Oden, had faith and took chances, but didn't know for sure that it will happen or who will do what exactly. They trusted the Scabbards.
That trust in the Scabbards resulted in getting an ally in Luffy. Oda uses Kaido to imply that Luffy cast a shadow that Kinemon is swathed in. This is more about Oda telling us, hence why I am going by Kaido's words that mirror the hopes and wishes of Toki and Oden. Kaido has been interested in if the Scabbards or Momo could show some semblance of fight or mettle like Oden.
That part was always clear but I don't think that this is what people are trying to figure out here. I think that many people believe that Tokis words will turn out to be true BUT in a different way from what she originally meant. She meant the nine scabbards but it's not unlikely that the actual feat of really taking down Kaido will accomplished by other people than them. And people are trying to figure out who those people are. At least that's what I believe many people are going for.
Well of course other people will be responsible for Kaido going down just by virtue of Luffy existing. Hell, Oden pretty much said that he expected other people to get the job done. I'm just saying that that's separate from the "9 shadows" thing, where Toki is referencing the Scabbards.
As for the theory that Oda's foreshadowing that it will specifically be 9 other characters that will get the main credit for beating Kaido, well, I guess we'll just have to check back once the war ends.
Thinking about it, fighting Shanks must be a real nightmare after the introduction of all these new Haki abilities. If we assume he's top tier in all areas (we have all reason to):
1. He knocks out fodder and ruins your interieur just by existing
2. He can look several seconds into the future
3. He's immune to Devil Fruit hax abilities
4. Comes with at least Cracker-level hardening
5. Is able to conjure invisible walls (Bartolomeo had to eat a fruit for this…)
6. Destroys your insides on contact
7. Can't be disabled through Sea Stone or waterSeriously, who would want to fight this shit? I would rather take on Akainu or Kaido instead of these broken shenanigans.
I would be seriously disappointed if Shanks isn't able to do at least halve of the things listed here.
Toki's final words to the people of Wano. Through the use of her powers, she can effectively create a "prophecy" from their perspective. But for us readers, we know that she can't actually see the future, and was just going off of what Oden told her, as well as the fact that she teleported several of the Scabbards herself.
Hence why I never got why people are still trying to figure out who the nine shadows are. It's the Scabbards, it was always clear she was talking about them.
I have to agree that the way Kaido framed it in the latest chapter implies the Scabbards are a red herring. He states the Scabbards were literally in Luffy's shadow, which allowed them to organize the assault to begin with. That would mean Luffy is one of the shadow casters, metaphorically-speaking.
Maybe Toki thought the Scabbards were indeed the people in the prophecy. Maybe not. Maybe she could indeed see the future (the ability is not unheard of since many characters can do it). Maybe not. Toki is still a mystery for the most part. But I do think the twist exists, regardless of Toki's knowledge about it.
To me, the prophecy means nine characters will fight Kaido. Probably Luffy, Zoro, Kidd, Law, some other Supernovas and at least one Scabbard.
We will sure know when we see the nine shadows and either the narrator or a character reveals this is the prophecy happening.
I have to agree that the way Kaido framed it in the latest chapter implies the Scabbards are a red herring. He states the Scabbards were literally in Luffy's shadow, which allowed them to organize the assault to begin with. That would mean Luffy is one of the shadow casters, metaphorically-speaking.
Just now that made me think of a completely different way what those words can mean. The nine shadows will actually be literally nine shadows that will be put into Luffy via Moria to have Nightmare Luffy V.2. Only this time instead of 100 shadows of random mooks it will be the shadows of nine strong characters. Place your bets on who that might be!
Just now that made me think of a completely different way what those words can mean. The nine shadows will actually be literally nine shadows that will be put into Luffy via Moria to have Nightmare Luffy V.2. Only this time instead of 100 shadows of random mooks it will be the shadows of nine strong characters. Place your bets on who that might be!
You know, that's an interesting thought. I like it.
Maybe we start with nine characters, like I imagine, but they still can't beat Kaido. As each of them falls, Moria collects their shadows, and puts it all in Luffy (the last one standing). That would be cool.
Wano predictions: There will be 5 acts; All Straw Hats will get fights, some in Act 4; Big Mom Pirates will arrive; Carrot will have her moment, but won't join; Yamato will be a Kouzuki samurai and Wano's Guardian; Shanks will visit Luffy in Act 5; Next arc is Mary Geoise.
You know, that's an interesting thought. I like it.
Maybe we start with nine characters, like I imagine, but they still can't beat Kaido. As each of them falls, Moria collects their shadows, and puts it all in Luffy (the last one standing). That would be cool.
If I'm honest I thought that we would see Nightmare Luffy again just not how and when. But for Moria to actually this time do this willingly there would be no better set up than in doing it to bring down the one who defeated him. I mean Crocodile got his brief chance to try to strike at Whitebeard (even though unsuccessfully) so it wouldn't surprise me if Moria wouldn't get the chance to do the same. And with when we saw him last time, he might be on his way to Wano right now.
The only thing that really never put much thought into was where to get those 100 shadows from but until now it never even crossed my minds that it doesn't have to be 100 shadows like last time. If it's nine strong shadows like Kid, Law, Hawkins, Apoo, Drake, Zoro, Killer, Sanji, Jinbe for instance that would definitely make it a badass Nightmare Luffy. Heck, even if you make it the shadows of all the scabbards it would be a badass character. Add Gear 4th and Ryuo to it and it's actually a good way for Luffy to defeat the supposedly strongest character in the OP world without yet being the strongest himself permamentally. Meaning there's still room for him to grow in terms of strenght.
I thought Shanks main thing was to stab people with the pointy end
It always felt like an extra bonus to me. Like look, this Yonkou is a swordsman on par with the best in the world. But dripping his very potent haki juice allover that pointy end is where it's really at.
It would also explain why losing an arm "didn't weaken him in any way". You don't need two hands for that.
Heck, even if you make it the shadows of all the scabbards it would be a badass character.
Oh, hell. That's it. I think you cracked the code!
Luffy with the shadows of the Nine Scabbards! I think that's it!
I still think we will see several characters fighting Kaido, each falling one by one, but the end may be indeed that. Luffy carrying the will of Oden through his retainers' strengths.
I hope no crutches is needed for Luffy to punch Kaidos lights out.
As much as i'd like to see Moria again, i'd prefer for it to be a genuine one on one win
It always felt like an extra bonus to me. Like look, this Yonkou is a swordsman on par with the best in the world. But dripping his very potent haki juice allover that pointy end is where it's really at.
It would also explain why losing an arm "didn't weaken him in any way". You don't need two hands for that.
You don't really need two arms for a one arm weapon either.
But sure, he clearly has boss haki, maybe that is his co-thing.
I hope no crutches is needed for Luffy to punch Kaidos lights out.
As much as i'd like to see Moria again, i'd prefer for it to be a genuine one on one win
I think Luffy winning a straight one on one fight with Kaido not would cheapen every other threat that may come later. As individuals, the Yonko are on the top of the world. Blackbeard isn't, Akainu isn't. Defeating a Yonko one-on-one would make everyone else feel not a challenge to Luffy later. Luffy needing an avantage now means there's still room for his growth.
Luffy will reach the top once he defeats Blackbeard one-on-one, but even Blackbeard needs to grow before that (most likely, by defeating Shanks).
Wano predictions: There will be 5 acts; All Straw Hats will get fights, some in Act 4; Big Mom Pirates will arrive; Carrot will have her moment, but won't join; Yamato will be a Kouzuki samurai and Wano's Guardian; Shanks will visit Luffy in Act 5; Next arc is Mary Geoise.
My take is that Kaido is simply representing one aspect of total power. Squeezing out a hard fought win against the peak of muscles and brawn (Kaido), doesn't mean you would easily defeat the man with aces in power, skill and mind (Blackbeard). Him learning the skills to by pass the (more) one aspect emperors like BM with her slant toward DF skills, Kaido with his physical slant, (and maybe BB will polish off haki lord Shanks) will be leading up to Luffy facing the anti-Luffy who has similarily worked himself up to be the the most well-rounded foe he'll ever fight one on one. I see it more like rock, paper, scissor than once you beat an X anyone who isn't X is harmless. But i can see where ya'll are coming from
Luffy beating Kaido 1 on 1 would not cheapen every other threat because Kaido isn't the strongest. There are over a dozen people stronger than him so Luffy will still have room for growth.
I hope no crutches is needed for Luffy to punch Kaidos lights out.
As much as i'd like to see Moria again, i'd prefer for it to be a genuine one on one win
You don't really need two arms for a one arm weapon either.
But sure, he clearly has boss haki, maybe that is his co-thing.
Yeah you don't need it, but no one can tell me that losing an arm won't weaken your efficiency with a sword. I guess it's not as crippling as losing a leg like Zeff, but at the very least he's locked out of supporting the weapon with both arms.
!
And it's not like he's using a floret or something, it's a sabre similiar to Roger's (maybe it's even the exact same weapon).
But anyway, once you add all these new haki tricks the statement suddenly makes sense. Who needs an arm if your willpower can make up for everything anyway, armstrength included? These invisible barriers/bubbles don't care if they are supported by one arm or two, I guess?
Yeah you don't need it, but no one can tell me that losing an arm won't weaken your efficiency with a sword. I guess it's not as crippling as losing a leg like Zeff, but at the very least he's locked out of supporting the weapon with both arms.
And it's not like he's using a floret or something, it's a sabre similiar to Roger's (maybe it's even the exact same weapon).
But anyway, once you add all these new haki tricks the statement suddenly makes sense. Who needs an arm if your willpower can make up for everything anyway, armstrength included? These invisible barriers/bubbles don't care if they are supported by one arm or two, I guess?
I got two words for ya. Haki arms!
I think Luffy winning a straight one on one fight with Kaido not would cheapen every other threat that may come later. As individuals, the Yonko are on the top of the world. Blackbeard isn't, Akainu isn't. Defeating a Yonko one-on-one would make everyone else feel not a challenge to Luffy later. Luffy needing an avantage now means there's still room for his growth.
Luffy will reach the top once he defeats Blackbeard one-on-one, but even Blackbeard needs to grow before that (most likely, by defeating Shanks).
I think this is a legit concern, but both Blackbeard and Akainu have abilities that are perfect to fight Luffy. Heat is still one of his weaknesses and Akainu is the heat king, while Blackbeard can disable powers and force Luffy into close combat. And that's us assuming BB is done powering up.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
I got two words for ya. Haki arms!
!
only for dinner!
I think this is a legit concern, but both Blackbeard and Akainu have abilities that are perfect to fight Luffy. Heat is still one of his weaknesses and Akainu is the heat king, while Blackbeard can disable powers and force Luffy into close combat. And that's us assuming BB is done powering up.
Sure, One Piece is not about power levels, and characters can pose a threat due to how their abilities interact, but I'm talking about another aspect, which is perceived narrative rank. One Piece is really successful because of how Oda explore narrative tropes to create tension and raise expectations.
Luffy beating Kaido, the "strongest creature in the world", one-on-one makes Luffy, to the reader's eyes, the new strongest creature in the world. You can't change that perception after it, everyone Luffy fights from then on, it's the other character that is trying to become the strongest, not Luffy. He's already the champion, he just needs to defend his title. To make anyone seem like a threat, Luffy would need to be defeated and then recover and fight again to reclaim the title for every arc from then on, limiting how threat is perceived by the readers.
Look at how people complain about Kaido being harmed by Scabbards, or how Luffy was about to go Gear 4th just to fight a perceived newcomer like Ulti. Those complains come from the readers' perception that the characters should be stronger than that. "He beat a Yonko commander! How is he struggling with a Tobi Roppo 'nobody'?" There will be complains just like that if Luffy, the top dog, has to struggle with anything bellow top contenders for his position.
By beating Kaido with help, on the other hand, Luffy is still not the "strongest creature in the world". He's stronger, but not the top dog. All threats ahead still feel like challenges to Luffy. By not being perceived as the top dog, Luffy still feels like the underdog challenging people stronger than him.
For a comparison, that's why Blackbeard wasn't allowed to beat Whitebeard one-on-one. If he had done that at the end of Marineford, it would feel really weird for him to run away from Akainu or not be the top dog of the world post-timeskip. But, since he had to cheat to win, we knew he was still growing and not ready for greater achievements.
The difference between Blackbeard and Luffy "cheating" is that Blackbeard is a scumbag seeking glory and not afraid to do dirty things, while Luffy is struggling the best he can to save others. The former cheats to reach the top, the later will "cheat" because there's no other way to save people otherwise.
There are over a dozen people stronger than him so Luffy will still have room for growth.
Still sounds pretty tier-y. Like X title means this and that, and readers will be angry if Y could be more challenging than X even if X had the title. From where i'm looking it'd at most take an equal showing from mirror Luffy to silence that noise. For instance if BB decisively beats down Shanksu. But i mean it's all point of view, everyone is looking in from their corner and who knows where it'll all end up. Will be fun to see, and if ya'll are right at least it'd mean more Moria
Still sounds pretty tier-y.
Yeah, but it's narrative tiers rather than strength-related. It's about perceived threat and hype, not really about punches.
If the readers perceive Luffy as the top dog, threats will feel hollow more often than not.
If the readers still perceive Luffy as someone who needs to grow, every arc boss still feels like a threat.
But are readers truly thinking of Kaido as the zenith of threat tho? I'd argue a fair number of us still take those titles and all with a grain of salt, and have our eyes on other candidates with higher potential for that seat
Yeah, the Moriah train has departed for me. I would have loved to see him involved, but slapping him onto this mess last minute would be too weird. Just imagine how many panels the necessary setup would require:
All of the above isn't unlikely per se, but at this point it really seems to be. I would love to be proven wrong though, more Moriah more fun!
As for the titles, I think it depends how people interpret them first and foremost, because there is leeway.
Some believe that "strongest creature" is interchangeable with "strongest being", while others (me included) believe that this is just a clever trick from Oda to avoid putting one Emperor above another.
Whitebeard was the strongest man in the world
Big Mom is the strongest woman in the world
Kaido is the strongest animal/creature in the world
While Shanks and Blackbeard are the next generation Emperors, on their way to take over (indicated by their lower bounties).
So for me beating Kaido doesn't mean that Luffy defeated the strongest being on the planet, but the most powerful animal.
Yeah I'd prefer a team effort to defeat Kaido to very end but I really wouldn't be surprised if in the end it's just Luffy using "gear 5" or something like that.
If you care for my advice, as soon as you see someone put up a tier list put them on ignore. Helps you browse these forums much more smoothly in the long run.
Wow, that's kind of…. REALLY rude. I already said in my post I don't take it seriously, that characters in One Piece VERY OFTEN defeat characters who are 'stronger' than them, and that matchups play a very big role in who beats who. But sure, ignore me because of a stupid 'for fun' post.
Sometimes I REALLY hate this forum. I can't tell you how many times I've been mocked her for the dumbest shit.
I absolutely expect Moria to come. Him conveniently finally reappearing for the first time while the Wano is ongoing is definitely not a coincidence.
I have to agree that the way Kaido framed it in the latest chapter implies the Scabbards are a red herring. He states the Scabbards were literally in Luffy's shadow, which allowed them to organize the assault to begin with. That would mean Luffy is one of the shadow casters, metaphorically-speaking.
Maybe Toki thought the Scabbards were indeed the people in the prophecy. Maybe not. Maybe she could indeed see the future (the ability is not unheard of since many characters can do it). Maybe not. Toki is still a mystery for the most part. But I do think the twist exists, regardless of Toki's knowledge about it.
But like I said, it wasn't a real prophecy, as shown by the flashback. Like how she only picked 20 years to begin with because of what Oden told her, rather than her having any idea what would happen.
So if it does end up being exactly 9 different characters that stand out the most or whatever, all it would be is Oda cleverly foreshadowing that under the guise of Toki's expectations for the Scabbards.
I'm kinda of dumb, so I'll take "The Strongest Creature' at face value. So, if Luffy beats Kaido one on one, he'll becomes "The Strongest Creature".
And that's why it won't probably happen. Of course you never know.
The Strongest Creature ofc doesn't mean the best at fighting etc etc, something other dummies here have problems grappling with.
Yeah, the Moriah train has departed for me. I would have loved to see him involved, but slapping him onto this mess last minute would be too weird. Just imagine how many panels the necessary setup would require:
- Moriah needs to show up (okay)
- People need to be reminded who he was and how his powers work (Oda is also writing for his casual readers, detailed infoboxes included)
- The characters need to remember who Moriah was and why they should trust him
- At least some sort of bonding needs to happen, especially between Moriah and Luffy (and Moriah hates Luffy's guts)
- Once that bond is formed, the scabbards would need to be convinced that this random, snake-necked-middle-aged creeper wants to steal their shadows, only to put them into Luffy for a potential powerup
All of the above isn't unlikely per se, but at this point it really seems to be. I would love to be proven wrong though, more Moriah more fun!
As for the titles, I think it depends how people interpret them first and foremost, because there is leeway.
Some believe that "strongest creature" is interchangeable with "strongest being", while others (me included) believe that this is just a clever trick from Oda to avoid putting one Emperor above another.
Whitebeard was the strongest man in the world
Big Mom is the strongest woman in the world
Kaido is the strongest animal/creature in the worldWhile Shanks and Blackbeard are the next generation Emperors, on their way to take over (indicated by their lower bounties).
So for me beating Kaido doesn't mean that Luffy defeated the strongest being on the planet, but the most powerful animal.
I can see Moriah appearing at the end of the arc and playing a similiar role to Kuma at the end of Thriller Bark, he's not there to fight or support anyone but to claim some spoils or set up some plans into motion.
He can show up after Kaidou is defeated and vulnerable and steal his shadow for some new cool zombie, and if Moria is now on BB's crew that would add a lot of power to that crew during the series end game.
I have a theory that Kaidou may be the world's smallest giant opposing Oars, who's the biggest giant, because of the distinct horns which I'm assuming are a race trait. Imagine Kaidou's shadow in a rebuilt Oars zombie, or similar, that's a though nut to crack.
But are readers truly thinking of Kaido as the zenith of threat tho? I'd argue a fair number of us still take those titles and all with a grain of salt, and have our eyes on other candidates with higher potential for that seat
That's a fair point but what I think Deicide is trying to say here is not how us readers perceive it but rather the characters in the world. Let's just look at the reactions of the characters in the OP world on several milestone victories Luffy had. Luffy defeated Arlong and got on the Marines list because of that making him the most wanted man of East Blue. Then at the Grand Line he get's defeated by Crocodile who belittles him how his feats mean nothing on the Grand Line with guys like the Warlords around. Then the next step is him defeating Crocodile which is the first but not last of Warlords to fall victim to him. Moria get's defeated too and also Lucci which is held in high regard by the WG and Marines also loses to Luffy. Yet again he's considered to be an ant in the middle of a storm when he arrives at Marineford with the three Admirals literally telling him that it's too early for him to be on that stage at that time. Then the timeskip happens and he defeats another Warlord and even two Emperor commanders while making it out alive after challenging one Emperor. This pretty much impresses everybody except for the top dogs themselves with Big Mom being angry that this is being sold as her loss and Kaido still (rightfully) not acknowledging that Luffy is on his level. But if Luffy would bring down Kaido in a fair one on one fight, then no matter how you cut it but in the OP world actually everybody would believe that Luffy is their on that level. And I don't think that the story is there yet where now even the top dogs wouldn't look down on Luffy anymore.
Luffy didn't get sole credit for defeating Doflamingo yet the characters and people acknowledge him as having done so. I imagine it will be similar with Kaido.
That's a fair point but what I think Deicide is trying to say here is not how us readers perceive it but rather the characters in the world. Let's just look at the reactions of the characters in the OP world on several milestone victories Luffy had. Luffy defeated Arlong and got on the Marines list because of that making him the most wanted man of East Blue. Then at the Grand Line he get's defeated by Crocodile who belittles him how his feats mean nothing on the Grand Line with guys like the Warlords around. Then the next step is him defeating Crocodile which is the first but not last of Warlords to fall victim to him. Moria get's defeated too and also Lucci which is held in high regard by the WG and Marines also loses to Luffy. Yet again he's considered to be an ant in the middle of a storm when he arrives at Marineford with the three Admirals literally telling him that it's too early for him to be on that stage at that time. Then the timeskip happens and he defeats another Warlord and even two Emperor commanders while making it out alive after challenging one Emperor. This pretty much impresses everybody except for the top dogs themselves with Big Mom being angry that this is being sold as her loss and Kaido still (rightfully) not acknowledging that Luffy is on his level. But if Luffy would bring down Kaido in a fair one on one fight, then no matter how you cut it but in the OP world actually everybody would believe that Luffy is their on that level. And I don't think that the story is there yet where now even the top dogs wouldn't look down on Luffy anymore.
This is a good analysis, but I'm also aiming at the readers' perceptions. Don't take us here as the average readers of OP. There's a lot of teens, a lot of people who don't get the little details, a lot of people who are in for the action and the hype. Just because me or you or wolfwood have an understanding that defeating Kaido on a fair fight does not mean everything will be easy from then on, it doesn't mean that will be the feeling of the general audience. Just look at those guys in this very thread that belittle Kaido because he was hurt by the Scabbards.
I feel Oda knows that making Luffy superior to Kaido on a fair fight will make a lot of readers think Luffy is now unbeatable and expect most threats to be easily dispatched by him. This already happened a few times in this act with Luffy having trouble with Apoo or Ulti, but now imagine those reactions enduring for almost every boss character Luffy fights from now on. The "underdog" status of Luffy would be severily harmed by it.
Power-wise, not every villain needs to be stronger than the last one. But, storytelling-wise, every threat does need to feel real. Remember how underwhelming Fishman Island was because the New Fishman Pirates were just pushovers? The purpose of that arc was exactly to show how formidable the SHs had become, but that feeling shouldn't be repeated near the climax of the series. For Oda to restablish a level of threat in Punk Hazard, he had to show Caesar able to defeat Luffy and capture most of the Straw Hats. Until then, Caesar also felt like a pushover.
Wano predictions: There will be 5 acts; All Straw Hats will get fights, some in Act 4; Big Mom Pirates will arrive; Carrot will have her moment, but won't join; Yamato will be a Kouzuki samurai and Wano's Guardian; Shanks will visit Luffy in Act 5; Next arc is Mary Geoise.
Luffy didn't get sole credit for defeating Doflamingo yet the characters and people acknowledge him as having done so. I imagine it will be similar with Kaido.
That's actually why I think that at least the top dogs like Teach, Big Mom, Sakazuki etc. will still not consider him to be on their level if they know the details because that's just how arrogant the top dogs have been portrayed so far. If however even they are made to believe that Luffy took down Kaido by himself then they would at least get to the point to acknolwedge his not an underdog anymore. I mean Blackbeard always had a special eye on Luffy and seems to knew that this kid could become a big one at some point and Sakazuki from the get go knew that Luffy could become something big if not eliminated early. It's only Big Mom (whom I see to become some sort of ally anyways) that still doesn't take him seriously but if Luffy takes down Kaido one on one while she's there, then even she should be able to figure out that this grandchild of Garp is the real deal. So to still keep their attitude unchanged getting the word to them that Luffy won with help would have to make it there.
That's actually why I think that at least the top dogs like Teach, Big Mom, Sakazuki etc. will still not consider him to be on their level if they know the details because that's just how arrogant the top dogs have been portrayed so far. If however even they are made to believe that Luffy took down Kaido by himself then they would at least get to the point to acknolwedge his not an underdog anymore. I mean Blackbeard always had a special eye on Luffy and seems to knew that this kid could become a big one at some point and Sakazuki from the get go knew that Luffy could become something big if not eliminated early. It's only Big Mom (whom I see to become some sort of ally anyways) that still doesn't take him seriously but if Luffy takes down Kaido one on one while she's there, then even she should be able to figure out that this grandchild of Garp is the real deal. So to still keep their attitude unchanged getting the word to them that Luffy won with help would have to make it there.
Yeah, arrogant top dogs are like that. Even in places like an internet forum.
I also think there's a reason Kaido is the 'strongest creature alive' that almost everyone is ignoring, but I'm not keen on sharing it when my opinion is so flippantly disregarded.
I happen to agree Luffy won't take on Kaido one on one. I think the story has set up the idea that it will be a group of nine. And I believe Momonosuke is going to be the key to achieving victory.
This is a good analysis, but I'm also aiming at the readers' perceptions. Don't take us here as the average readers of OP. There's a lot of teens, a lot of people who don't get the little details, a lot of people who are in for the action and the hype. Just because me or you or wolfwood have an understanding that defeating Kaido on a fair fight does not mean everything will be easy from then on, it doesn't mean that will be the feeling of the general audience. Just look at those guys in this very thread that belittle Kaido because he was hurt by the Scabbards.
I feel Oda knows that making Luffy superior to Kaido on a fair fight will make a lot of readers think Luffy is now unbeatable and expect most threats to be easily dispatched by him. This already happened a few times in this act with Luffy having trouble with Apoo or Ulti, but now imagine those reactions enduring for almost every boss character Luffy fights from now on. The "underdog" status of Luffy would be severily harmed by it.
Power-wise, not every villain needs to be stronger than the last one. But, storytelling-wise, every threat does need to feel real. Remember how underwhelming Fishman Island was because the New Fishman Pirates were just pushovers? The purpose of that arc was exactly to show how formidable the SHs had become, but that feeling shouldn't be repeated near the climax of the series. For Oda to restablish a level of threat in Punk Hazard, he had to show Caesar able to defeat Luffy and capture most of the Straw Hats. Until then, Caesar also felt like a pushover.
Oh, thanks for explaining that. Didn't think take it that way, so apologies for being wrong. About that I however don't think that Oda actually pushes too much to get the point across. I think so - and this is purely my own interpretation of how I think the man himself works (which might be utterly off the mark) - because I do believe that Oda thinks that a) he got the threat/strenght of a character across quite understandibly and b) he might not give that much about strenght levels in the first place as many people in these forums seem to be. I'll my favorite example for this here which is Jaws in Marineford. Now it was about the time when I left these forums but I still seem to remember that people took Jaws for a weakling because he lost to Kuzan in a splitsecond while no matter how I look at it, that's just not what I see has happened. We might have not seen much of this fight but this was a) chaotic war with many big players meaning that interuptions, debris from other battles etc. all made a clean one on one fight impossible and b) nothing we saw in the few panels of their fight seems to indicate that either of them was having the upper hand. But as with so many things in OP if we don't literally see it explicitly shown we will not take take Jaws actually fought Kuzan on equal terms. That's why many people consider(ed) him to be weak (or at least clearly weaker than Kuzan). And I don't think that's what Oda has aimed for respectively I don't think that he would even care much if that's what people got out of that fight.
About that I however don't think that Oda actually pushes too much to get the point across. I think so - and this is purely my own interpretation of how I think the man himself works (which might be utterly off the mark) - because I do believe that Oda thinks that a) he got the threat/strenght of a character across quite understandibly and b) he might not give that much about strenght levels in the first place as many people in these forums seem to be.
Think not in terms of power, but of threat. Power is very relative and not always linear. But each new arc needs to feel like a challenge, the enemy must feel like a threat. Even if the next villain is weaker than Kaido, he still needs to feel like he can hold his own and has a chance of winning.
So, the stronger your character appears to be, the harder it becomes to come out with challenges that feel threatening. I feel Luffy beating up Kaido fair and square would undermine our perception of Luffy as the underdog trying to reach the top, because he has already beaten up the "world's strongest creature". This is also why I think the SHs will fight 1v1 the Tobi Roppo, Headliners and Big Mom children, while the Calamities will fight the Worst Generation: once the average reader perceive the SHs as a bonafide "Yonko level" crew, even the entirety of the Marine forces won't feel so overwhelming.
This all begs the question at which point can Luffy stop being an underdog? Assuming the five year plan to be real OP is ending relatively shortly, and the last part post-wano will be a storm of huge events. So going into that final storm does Luffy still need to be an "ant"? Personally i'm fine with Luffy becoming equal to the recognized powers because their time has run out and what is coming is beyond the scope of what any non-BB or WG entity can produce. Or to summarize does equaling an emperor matter when the next threat ahead is saving the world, toppling a global empire, and beating the ultimate threat. Like i find that progression in threat escalation to be perfectly acceptable. But i'll tack on a disclaimer that i don't neccesarily think the whole fight will be solo'd by Luffy, but the final blows that lays him out i hope will be his very own unsupported ones
