Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !
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Kaidou, from his first formal intro in Suicide, is literally presented to us as a mentally frustrated villain living in his own personal hell by being outshone by a man he thought he had complete control over. He's looking to kill himself in the bravest most daring way possible just to beat Oden, something he's failed at for 20 years.
That's our villain.
I have to say it’s a relief to read this perspective from you.
I’m… surprised? That seemingly not many people read Kaido this way, with his numerous suicide attempts at the fore of their thoughts? But it’s how I’ve observed Kaido from the start, with Oden’s death filling in a big gap in my understanding. I felt as if all my quiet instincts were confirmed with a big “Aha!” when Kaido announced his war. “This bored, miserable man has missed so many chances for a glorious death. So how high can he raise the stakes to get it?”
Really, I think in order to enjoy One Piece, you must have an amount of patience.
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I got that Kaido wanted to go out with a bang.
But honestly i never connected Oden to that desire.
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Yeah! I feel such a dummy right now because I just always assumed he was bored as fuck.
It makes so much sense that Oden's death had a profound effect on him.
Edit: i get this sense that he really wants to be known as one of the legends.
Maybe being an apprentice on Rocks Pirates have something to do with it? Like, inferiority complex or something.
(which would make him even more interesting. World's Strongest Creature and still having hang ups) -
You know, that's a very unique and interesting take on a character.
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It makes sense and also warrant the question whether Kaido would achieve his desire for a badass final moment. If Oda truly wants to work on this theme, I am hyped more for the ending of this arc.
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Assuming that to be the intent i don't think it was convey in any clear way
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I reread Oden’s flashback recently, but this makes me want to restart Wano.
Because even before he came on screen, we understood from Doflamingo that Kaido was trying to bulk up his crew by turning them into an all devil fruit user army. We knew that there were these weapon factories on Wano, that Kaido was more interested in turning potential rivals into allies, and that Kaido was mustering his strength. With this extremely powerful alliance, and massive crew, finding the ancient weapons and obtaining One Piece isn’t a distant dream—and even if he fails? Even if his allies turn on him, or the marines take him down? What a way to go.
So much of Kaido’s seemingly passive behaviors fall into place if you read from the perspective that he wouldn’t mind losing!
There's a great lighthearted vibe around here, because no matter how serious we might get, we're all together because of some magical pirate.
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insert every panel of Law working with Luffy to defeat Mingo
Here's another facile criticism, "Kaido doesn't feel fleshed out."
Are we in the Matrix? Because I feel this is like deja vu all over again.
"We don't know anything about Mom!"
Oda: Here's a multi-chapter Mom flcshback when it will work to maximum effect.
Do we not think Kaido's past will be elaborated on in some form?
The man finally gave us his objective so he has stakes. I'm so happy I wasn't moaning for months that he had no stakes and ruining my enjoyment, and just patiently waited to see what Oda would do.
We know he has a history with major players. Be just a little more patient and you might even find there's more to him than 'Me want war'. Everyone demands the villains be handled a very specific personal way and that expectation is absolutely destroying your enjoyment.
If that payoff sucks, it sucks, and Oda should be called on it. But dayum! We just had an arc where Oda gave us his villain's story at an unusual moment and still ppl are complaining? My goodness.
More that I don't feel like I have a good grasp of his personality. To use Big Mom as a comparison I really enjoyed her personality through WCI, and the more we learned about her the more it felt like it added to the story. Kaido is alright in my book and I do like him, but I'm confused about his stance on using underhanded means to win. He "won" over Oden by dirty tricks and did nothing to stop it, but then during the execution showed respect and said he killed the witch. Its things like that I wish were elaborated on just a little further to better established, as now that we're interacting with him I feel they'd add more weight to what's happening.
I'd be down for a Kaido Flashback tho. Would be hilarious if that happens the next few chapters just to disapprove my points.
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Should Kaido have not taken advantage of Higurashi's interruption? Well, lets ask the future Pirate King
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Holy shit, I never even considered Kaido to have an inferiority complex or wanting to really establish himself as a legend before reading it here, but that would make so much sense with what we've seen. Like, he's not just bored and wants to go out with a bang, he wants to create the biggest war the world has ever seen. These last chapters, he didn't just say he's gonna get the super legendary One Piece, no he's talking about how he's going for the One Piece AND the Ancient Weapons, AND just decapitated his longstanding ally before giving a join me or die ultimatum to all his minions, in the most theatrical, dramatic way he could. Oh, and Wano is going to be converted into a lawless pirate's paradise, and his kid is going to be Shogun, etc etc. That's super interesting to me, that Kadio might really just be after getting all the hype and big news he can get.
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I don`t know anything about writing or characterization, but my disappointment with the Kaidou x Oden fight is that we had just seen 2 equals clashing a couple of chapter earlier (Roger vs WB), and the Kaidou x Oden was nothing like that.
It looked like a curbstomping. There was no panel saying they fought for days on end before Oden landed that hit, my feeling reading it was that Oden ran through an army all the way to an completely uninjured Kaidou and heavily damaged easily.
Kaidou is still menacing and the arc is still great, but that part of the flashback leaves a sour taste for me.
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@No:
Holy shit, I never even considered Kaido to have an inferiority complex or wanting to really establish himself as a legend before reading it here, but that would make so much sense with what we've seen. Like, he's not just bored and wants to go out with a bang, he wants to create the biggest war the world has ever seen. These last chapters, he didn't just say he's gonna get the super legendary One Piece, no he's talking about how he's going for the One Piece AND the Ancient Weapons, AND just decapitated his longstanding ally before giving a join me or die ultimatum to all his minions, in the most theatrical, dramatic way he could. Oh, and Wano is going to be converted into a lawless pirate's paradise, and his kid is going to be Shogun, etc etc. That's super interesting to me, that Kadio might really just be after getting all the hype and big news he can get.
That reading is 100 percent consistent to what he said about Whitebeard's death, as well, though I would argue that attempting suicide off of a Sky Island isn't nearly as great as how Whitebeard went out.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
I reread Oden’s flashback recently, but this makes me want to restart Wano.
Because even before he came on screen, we understood from Doflamingo that Kaido was trying to bulk up his crew by turning them into an all devil fruit user army. We knew that there were these weapon factories on Wano, that Kaido was more interested in turning potential rivals into allies, and that Kaido was mustering his strength. With this extremely powerful alliance, and massive crew, finding the ancient weapons and obtaining One Piece isn’t a distant dream—and even if he fails? Even if his allies turn on him, or the marines take him down? What a way to go.
So much of Kaido’s seemingly passive behaviors fall into place if you read from the perspective that he wouldn’t mind losing!
I'm rereading and came across the scene where Roger mentions what he will be after finding One Piece and that led me to the scene where Luffy mentions something similar to Ace and Sabo and finally right now I'm rereading Sabaody and the scene where Luffy mentions what it means to be King of the Pirates. Man, I think there's some simple combination of Fun, Adventure, and Freedom that bring it all together, but I don't know what it might be? I guess it could just be exactly what he said to them, that he'll be the freest person on the seas.
Another thing that popped out is Rayleigh mentioning that a baby being on the crew reminded them of the old days. I assume that's whatever egg they were carrying around, but who knows?
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I think the baby, or babies, they meant might be shanks and buggy.
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As for now, i place Kaido and Big Mom with the like of Spriggan 12 from Fairy Tail in villains departement.
Both are strong by pure hype, not by showing. Both are not 2D badass character. Both always get humilated.
I really hope Oda deliver the hype he build for Kaido and Big Mom.
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I don`t know anything about writing or characterization, but my disappointment with the Kaidou x Oden fight is that we had just seen 2 equals clashing a couple of chapter earlier (Roger vs WB), and the Kaidou x Oden was nothing like that.
It looked like a curbstomping. There was no panel saying they fought for days on end before Oden landed that hit, my feeling reading it was that Oden ran through an army all the way to an completely uninjured Kaidou and heavily damaged easily.
Kaidou is still menacing and the arc is still great, but that part of the flashback leaves a sour taste for me.
I don't think it's anyone's place to take that away from you.
But that so-called curb stomping was completely earned by Oden.
He didn't best Kaidou in power.
That moment was the culmination of every second he couldn't be there for Wano. For the threat facing his family and yes, his friends too.
Oden was an atomic bomb of energy and skill, equipped with legendary weaponry and every moment he swallowed his pride was released there.
Why do we have no problem when Luffy does this, but have such a difficult time believing someone who is literally bigger than his own legend, pulled it off? Does it come back to the sophomoric 'Oden is Chad' sentiment that infected the overseas fans for some reason?
I'm not saying anyone shouldn't feel how they feel, I'm just shocked that we're willing to believe Luffy can do the same thing, but Oden (the hero of the longest flashback in the series) can't.
Oden ate shit from the people of Wano and his father and he didn't bat an eye. But in that moment, he let everything that was ever inside of him go. That's why Oda portrayed him as a fool. He didn't care what he had to do to protect the people because he made an honor-bound promise. But when that was broken, everything he felt when he went to strike down Orochi and more was released. Did that somehow not come across? And if you didn't like that's how it happened, cool, that's reasonable. But one can't say it didn't happen without reason, because it absolutely did.
"But why didn't Oden protect Wano when he left again?"
Two reasons:
1. Because it was necessary for the story.
2. Since you can't have events happen 'just cuz', Oda made it clear through Oden's actions that he felt the crew was onto something bigger than even Wano. And he was right. Without Oden, Roger didn't make it to the goal. And without Roger making it there, there is no Pirate King. Without a Pirate King, there's no modern Shanks, with no modern Shanks there's no modern Luffy and without Luffy, there is no Dawn.
"Well that's stupid, he should've saved Wano first."
Lest we forget, Roger's life was ticking away.
So yes, Oden did sacrifice his home country's current safety, for a cause that he felt was much, much bigger.
And he was right.
The checks and balances are there. One may not like them or feel they're weak, but they do exist and it's unfair to simply suggest otherwise without properly considering what's on the table.
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Can we like, address the idea of this "curbstomping?" (I mean, in general, I'd encourage a reread of Chapter 970, Kaido vs. Oden.)
"On one side, 11 samurai marched into battle… on the other, a thousand pirates. But the battle lasted longer than expected... as Kozuki Oden's strength surpassed the enemy's imagination."
You might think THAT means Kaido's forces aren't up to snuff, but as if to make clear that it wasn't in that very panel, Queen and King are silhouetted. "Be careful!" Raizou cries. "Some of them are very dangerous!!!"
We the reader are not meant to assume that any part of this was easy: Oda (and later Oden) informs us so himself.
What happens next is Kaidou uses his breath, and we see Oden fall. It's then Oden rises to strike a telling blow. Which he does!
Kaidou takes advantage of the witch's distraction to respond in kind, but you can see his shock at Oden's strength.
We don't see the rest of the fight, but the narration tells us after the battle was fierce. So fierce that…"…the fires that burned Udon's thick forests... did not abate until the rains arrived a full five days later."
You may not have gotten that impression when you were reading it. And that's totally fair: maybe the flashback failed to meet your expectations.
But what was described was a struggle. A struggle for both sides. And nothing in how the Akazaya Nine have ever described Kaido or his forces have suggested he was weak or easy–either before, or after the flashback.
Oden himself said if couldn't do it, it'd be a long time before someone else could. THAT's how you know how tough Kaido is.But what is also was was Oda's way of paying off on the hype of decades, of the oft feared but yet to be showcased "fearsome samurai of Wano."
Get this: the Akazaya Samurai were so fearsome, that even so outnumbered and sometimes outmatched, they were able to struggle their way through Kaido's forces, and Oden managed dealt a blow that would've been decisive, if not for the last second intervention of the witch. And even if it left a bad taste in his mouth after the fact, Kaido's not so honorable as to not take advantage of a distracted opponent in the moment. He's a freakin' pirate!
We've seen this dynamic play out whenever fights (especially Luffy's) have gotten interfered with in the past. Hell, it just happened last arc (and Katakuri's about as honorable as an opponent as Luffy's ever had).... When I hear people slim all this down to "Kaido's weak, Oden's a Gary Stu, powerlevels" and all the hyperbole,
I understand the impulse to let one's expectations of what might happen, bleed into one's feelings of what does happen. It's an attempt to make something that doesn't yet make sense, make sense.
But especially when it comes to fights in One Piece, I think it flattens and attempts to oversimplify what are some of the most interesting dynamics in conflicts in the series.The element of uncertainty.
Luck, incompatible matchups, unexpected assists, and yes, complications matter.
These complications are WHY CP9 was able to wipe the floor with the Strawhats at Water 7: the crew was divided, and confused about Robin.
They're WHY Squallo was able to get the drop on Whitebeard, WHY Whitebeard wasn't able to bring out his full might at the Summit War.
They're WHY whenever Big Mom wasn't able to bring out her full strength against the Strawhats, there was an explanation for it, and even then the Strawhats there could just barely hold her off.And they're why Oden lost.
There's a great lighthearted vibe around here, because no matter how serious we might get, we're all together because of some magical pirate.
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That's pretty much it.
The point of WCI is if they stayed around and fought her, as a divided crew, they would have bit the dust. Pretty much every time they get a lead on her, the crew is doing the equivalent of exhausting all MP on a one-shot Lv.99 spell. Even Brook facing her is really damn close to the Luffy/Ener encounter and still he got whupped.
"Big Mom was made a fool of."
She sure was. The Strawhats made an AMAZING infiltration and escape.
"Mom was weak."
Is that why they were running for their lives for 30 or so chapters?
This is why the "X is all hype" commentary doesn't bother me because it's coming from a place of unfulfilled imaginations in readers who want One Piece to be something it isn't, namely Dragon Ball. And just because DB was one of Oda's biggest influences, believe you me, he does NOT want to recreate Dragon Ball.
Or at least, I should say anything from Z.
Oda and Toriyama are very much in line with the Jackie Chan school of battle. But whereas Toriyama largely drifted from that, Oda has maintained it to this day.
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One thing that must be said is that many people underestimate Oden power-wise. We were not expecting him to be such a monster, but we should adjust our understandment to this fact.
First, from what we've seen so far, Oden is only second to Big Mom in terms of being born a natural monster. Oden was like Hercules, a parallel established through many references at his youth. Even before leaving Wano he could easily beat someone like Ashura Douji, who nowadays can measure himself against a Yonkou commander. And Oden kept growing after that. Eventually he became a pirate, which means he was not a "frog in the well" anymore and could develop even further. He was a brother to Whitebeard, and then became part of the strongest pirate crew of all time. As Oda himself writes in chapter 969, "He grew from wild child to daimyo of Kuri, then went to sea and travelled among the world's greatest pirates, returning many times stronger than when he'd left."
Oden was a legend much bigger than Kaido at that point in time. Kaido was not a Yonkou yet, so he was still climbing his way up in the world after being an apprentice in Rocks' crew. Of course, he was extremely strong already, so much so that he could knock out Oden with a single hit (impressive), but we should understand that Kaido is on another league now.
If people can't feel the stakes from Kaido after Oden slashed him, my condolescences for such a shallow perception of power and intimidation. I won't argue against a subjective feeling, but please don't push it as some sort of objective truth.
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I'm….I'm just so damn proud. T^T
That's all one can ask for.
"I don't like that he's legendary."
Cool.
"He shouldn't be legendary."
Huh?
"He isn't legendary in the story."
Not accurate.
"He isn't legendary to me."
Cool! Own that feeling. ...but don't suggest Oda didn't establish him to be as such. That's all down to personal feelings, not what's on paper.
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Damn, Greg, the way you describe it really puts on a new weight on Oden
s feelings about the whole conflict, and I agree, the scarring scene is the culmination of Odens pains and regrets and one the decisive moments in the whole flashback. The story couldn`t have gone any other way and I think it works great.I just wish Oda could
ve added a page (or even a panel) showing a tired or battle-bruised Kaidou before Odens hit. I know its a small thing and it obviously doesnt make a difference to a lot of people, but that would`ve given me (and apparently some others too) the feeling that a long and hard fought battle was happening before the hit.Maybe Silence is right and the content that we got should
ve been enough to pass that feeling, but I go again to the recent demonstration of equals clashing that we got a few chapters earlier (Roger vs WB in chapter 966), where Oda didnt expand the confrontation (I assume to not spoil anything) but added a text box stating that they fought for 3 days and that was enough to make them look on par. Maybe that wouldnt have fixed it for everyone, but I think it worked great for the Aokiji x Akainu battle for instance: we didnt see a single panel of it, and I can`t help but see them as equals regardless of who won or who lost a leg.Anyway, answering why do we accept when Luffy lands a finishing blow even though he is weaker than his opponent and we love it, but Oden
s didnt feel that great: I think its because, even though we went through a lot of things with Oden during the flashback, we didnt go through the struggles of this battle with him, we didn`t see all he had to do during this confrontation specifically to allow himself the chance to land that crucial blow.But of course, we
ll get that (and a lot more) when Luffy beats Kaidou, so Im really excited for the rest of the arc. -
I’m really looking forward to the next chapter on Monday, I heard it made one of the editors cry
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Damn, Greg, the way you describe it really puts on a new weight on Oden
s feelings about the whole conflict, and I agree, the scarring scene is the culmination of Odens pains and regrets and one the decisive moments in the whole flashback. The story couldn`t have gone any other way and I think it works great.I just wish Oda could
ve added a page (or even a panel) showing a tired or battle-bruised Kaidou before Odens hit. I know its a small thing and it obviously doesnt make a difference to a lot of people, but that would`ve given me (and apparently some others too) the feeling that a long and hard fought battle was happening before the hit.Maybe Silence is right and the content that we got should
ve been enough to pass that feeling, but I go again to the recent demonstration of equals clashing that we got a few chapters earlier (Roger vs WB in chapter 966), where Oda didnt expand the confrontation (I assume to not spoil anything) but added a text box stating that they fought for 3 days and that was enough to make them look on par. Maybe that wouldnt have fixed it for everyone, but I think it worked great for the Aokiji x Akainu battle for instance: we didnt see a single panel of it, and I can`t help but see them as equals regardless of who won or who lost a leg.Anyway, answering why do we accept when Luffy lands a finishing blow even though he is weaker than his opponent and we love it, but Oden
s didnt feel that great: I think its because, even though we went through a lot of things with Oden during the flashback, we didnt go through the struggles of this battle with him, we didn`t see all he had to do during this confrontation specifically to allow himself the chance to land that crucial blow.But of course, we
ll get that (and a lot more) when Luffy beats Kaidou, so Im really excited for the rest of the arc.The scene and the chapter felt rushed.
Like so much else these days in the series.
It deserves every bit of criticism it gets to that end.
And even so…I get the why of it. Or at least sympathize with the why of it. Just the same....it sucks.
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I’m really looking forward to the next chapter on Monday, I heard it made one of the editors cry
Greg confirmed on Twitter that the editor was talking about 986, not 987.
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The scene and the chapter felt rushed.
Like so much else these days in the series.
It deserves every bit of criticism it gets to that end.
And even so…I get the why of it. Or at least sympathize with the why of it. Just the same....it sucks.
So true. I'm actually excited about the anime expanding on this it could be REALLY awesome
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If that was honestly him he'd be Villain B from Anime X.
Kaidou, from his first formal intro in Suicide, is literally presented to us as a mentally frustrated villain living in his own personal hell by being outshone by a man he thought he had complete control over. He's looking to kill himself in the bravest most daring way possible just to beat Oden, something he's failed at for 20 years.
That's our villain.
We knew this.
This should not be a surprise. The world might think he's a demon, but the man hates himself more than anyone else.
Oh, my original post wasn't really serious and was more of a sarcastic way of putting what JohnTnaig was trying to argue here.
I find Kaidou to be one of the most compelling characters in the series.
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So true. I'm actually excited about the anime expanding on this it could be REALLY awesome
Get ready to be disappointed then.
The anime nowadays doesn't really take the manga stuff and elevate it. It merely tries to "stretch" it and add cool effects to it. If you want pretty colours and effects then the anime for those scenes isn't going to be a problem.
Anything else? I would lower my expectations.
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I find this take some people have about Kaido being weak, overhyped, disappointing and whatnot quite funny. I mean everybody is absolutely willing to accept that Shanks in Rogers crew and Shanks now are two different kind of people if we're talking only about how strong they are. But if we're talking about Kaido then it's suddenly a disappointment although we're talking about the same time gap here. Why is it ok for Shanks to have gotten stronger but everybody expects of Kaido to have been the strongest back then already?
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Greg confirmed on Twitter that the editor was talking about 986, not 987.
Awww really:sad:
I didn’t think there was anything particularly sad about that chapter to be honest, I guess them having to “kill” someone they thought of as a friend at one point was kind of sad…. nothing I would cry over though
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I personally wouldn't ever take editor's word as anything more than fake-hype/promotion tool.
It's sort of their job to try and create fake-hype/excitement.
The whole "for the first-time I cried" just never came across to me as anything more than them trying to hype the chapters….even though the chapters itself can speak for themselves much better than anything I have ever seen from editor.
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The moment from the chapter that he could be talking about might be the Akazaya Samurai’s attack on Kaido, which (for me) carried all the emotional weight and anguish that Oden’s own attack on Kaido did (and perhaps more, honestly, they’ve been through a lot). I know it made me gasp.
Some really excellent posts these past few pages, I feel a deeper insight for these characters than I had before.
But I do especially agree that the impulse to not show off Kaido’s moves before he goes to town on Luffy left you wanting more of Oden & Kaido’s battle. Alas, at least it adds to its mythic mystique, I suppose.
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I find this take some people have about Kaido being weak, overhyped, disappointing and whatnot quite funny. I mean everybody is absolutely willing to accept that Shanks in Rogers crew and Shanks now are two different kind of people if we're talking only about how strong they are. But if we're talking about Kaido then it's suddenly a disappointment although we're talking about the same time gap here. Why is it ok for Shanks to have gotten stronger but everybody expects of Kaido to have been the strongest back then already?
I think it's because Shanks was still a kid but Kaido was already an adult.
Maybe it's dumb of me but to me it's more telling of how serious I should take the "fight" with Oden when Kaido was not allowed to fight seriously. Maybe it's wrong of me but I assume Kaido fights seriously in his hybrid and "awakened" form.
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Getting hurt is ok, I rather have it this way then luffy as the only person that can hurt him and until then kaidoh looking like a wall. It's more about oda making a better villain then kaidou, orochi, wano was orochi's arc in the first 60 chapters or how many we got so far. So much that oda has to kill orochi fast so he can start focusing on kaidou because it would be hard to keep your attention on kaidou with orochi around.
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But Orochi isn't dead.
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Croc or Enel would never.Wanna see the "ancient civilization destroyed" thing done really well? FFXIV did a great take on it. The bar's high for One Piece to beat.
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I think it's because Shanks was still a kid but Kaido was already an adult.
That I can understand. But just because he's been an adult back then already doesn't mean that he reached the peak of his physical strenght. Of course in shonen not everybody get's stronger exponentially the older he gets but at least it's not something that is unheard of. I just think even as an adult Kaido could have grown more in physical strenght over the course of two decades.
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That I can understand. But just because he's been an adult back then already doesn't mean that he reached the peak of his physical strenght. Of course in shonen not everybody get's stronger exponentially the older he gets but at least it's not something that is unheard of. I just think even as an adult Kaido could have grown more in physical strenght over the course of two decades.
The thing is he did grow in strength though, like, it's not even a question. It's been said by several characters, I posted an example of one bluntly saying it a few pages back or so.
Agreeing with you by the way in case this came off snarky.
Croc or Enel would never.Wanna see the "ancient civilization destroyed" thing done really well? FFXIV did a great take on it. The bar's high for One Piece to beat.
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But Orochi isn't dead.
But we don't know when he will return. Right now he is alone, enemy of kaidou, SHs, samurai. He could return at end of wano after war, in cover story or 20 chapters from now before war is over..
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@uniaka:
But we don't know when he will return. Right now he is alone, enemy of kaidou, SHs, samurai. He could return at end of wano after war, in cover story or 20 chapters from now before war is over..
Orochi isn’t dead.
There's a great lighthearted vibe around here, because no matter how serious we might get, we're all together because of some magical pirate.
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Kaido being sore about how cool Oden was in death doesn't really downplay Oden being a vessel for all possible authorial character wanking. He's Hercules, everyone he meets immedietly ride his dick despite him being kind of a dick, all wrong he does is only a sacrifice that people are too dumb to understand etc etc. Like ya'll can suggest explanations for why, but don't try to suggest Oda isn't giving him a relentless two hander at all times
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Didn't he have to defeat his Scabbards (at least most of them) before they rode his dick?
And wasn't Whitebeard like fuck no u douche you're not boarding my ship.
From what I remember Oden had to prove himself many times.
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He absolutely is.
Is there something wrong with that? I only think it is if the handling didn't fit or felt like it was unearned.
That's why that first dilemna with the boar is supposed to do, tell the reader he earned it through his actions, skill, and motivation. If that didn't leave an impression, understood, but it's very clearly presented to tell us about him.
Not to mention his absurdly powerful debut scene. I dunno if that hit foreign readers with the impact it does over here. And that's not some weeb 'honor etc.' thing, it's the audacity of what he's performing followed by zero effs and somehow managing to justify it. Actually, when I read the scene the first time, I was worried it might cause an outcry over here from parents because of how audacious it is. He goes from that to rescuing the town, and then is even satisfied being labeled the villain in the act.
Instantly sold here.
And if that didn't sell you, yep, Oda's handling of Oden is def gonna leave a sour taste.
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Or maybe people have just primed themselves to dislike a character they hadn’t heard about until now, that all their worldbuilding knowledge hadn’t prepared them for, who was apparently such a crucial part of the world’s two biggest pirate crews, so they didn’t allow themselves to just sit back and enjoy this outrageous character, and so willingly see his every act in the worst light possible.
That’s a possibility too!
There's a great lighthearted vibe around here, because no matter how serious we might get, we're all together because of some magical pirate.
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I probably wouldn't have enjoyed Oden anyhow, i have a low tolerance for jerk jock characters who get away with shitty behaviour because they can kick a ball, but i may have found him less grating if his story wasn't a fast paced and crammed best of Oden compilation. When you just check boxes of all famous people who has to worship him and then off screen most of the reasons why it does little to endear me to the character. But i mean i'm an outlier who was hostile to Oden from the funeral event, since i can't wrap my head around what kind of narccist thinks it's okay to hurt others and ruin their last goodbye just because you have to get your way. I found his justification for it being a nice gesture to be 1000% bullshit and the only thing holding him from a justified beating there is that he is the strongest bully on the island so he can do whatever he wants. God i hope this doesn't up another can of worms now….
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Kaido being sore about how cool Oden was in death doesn't really downplay Oden being a vessel for all possible authorial character wanking. He's Hercules, everyone he meets immedietly ride his dick despite him being kind of a dick, all wrong he does is only a sacrifice that people are too dumb to understand etc etc. Like ya'll can suggest explanations for why, but don't try to suggest Oda isn't giving him a relentless two hander at all times
This is just changing the subject and missing the point of the discussion.
People are here talking about Kaido and how his "defeat" to Oden before is hurting his presence as an intimidating villain. That's the discussion. I'm just pointing out that Oden was a bigger legend than him at that point in time. If people care or not, that's not with me anymore.
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Hey man death of the author is a beautiful thing.
I don’t think that you can do that on a serialized and ongoing work.
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uniaka ikuzakas point is that Orochi is out of the plot for a while so that Oda can focus on Kaidou as main villain.
Right, and mine was that we can’t make that assumption yet, because we don’t know how dead he is, or that he won’t play a part in the conclusion of the arc.
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But we don't know when he will return. Right now he is alone, enemy of kaidou, SHs, samurai. He could return at end of wano after war, in cover story or 20 chapters from now before war is over..
Woah, I missed this.
No, Orochi is hardly out of this. He'll be scrambling in no time flat. The Kozuki's must deal with him personally during this, and he needs to be exposed to the citizens of Hana no Miyako.
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Or maybe people have just primed themselves to dislike a character they hadn’t heard about until now, that all their worldbuilding knowledge hadn’t prepared them for, who was apparently such a crucial part of the world’s two biggest pirate crews, so they didn’t allow themselves to just sit back and enjoy this outrageous character, and so willingly see his every act in the worst light possible.
That’s a possibility too!
Agreed.
And to this I offer everything we've ever seen from Kinnemon's ordeal as retainer, Momo's pride, and of course, the dedication of the minks. I mean, holy effing sh*t. They gambled their existence as a species on the memory of the man.
I don't think any of us were prepped for how remarkable Oden would be, but the hints that he carried wallet with 'badass mofo' written on it were there for years.
But i mean i'm an outlier who was hostile to Oden from the funeral event, since i can't wrap my head around what kind of narccist thinks it's okay to hurt others and ruin their last goodbye just because you have to get your way.
You mean the bones scene? That was the point, it wasn't his wish. It appears heavily implied that what he was doing was fulfilling a last request, rather than him simply wanting to do that. As par for course, he doesn't explain himself or care how horrible it made him look.
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“When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time, they can seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall. Think of it–always.”
