I've been out of the loop for a long time.. could someone (preferably someone relatively neutral but who's seen or parttaken in a lot of the discussions) give me a bit of an overview of the arguments for and against her joining?
Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 7 - Wano)
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I've been out of the loop for a long time.. could someone (preferably someone relatively neutral but who's seen or parttaken in a lot of the discussions) give me a bit of an overview of the arguments for and against her joining?
I'm not a fanboy of her, so in that case I'm neutral although certain she will join.
Pros:
-Connection with Ace
-Close relationship with Luffy
-Got a dream and motivation
-Got a perfect role as Pirate Disciple (like shanks, kaido, marco and others were), its an official position and not something fan made like cabin boy.
-unique design, personality and power that fits within the crew (subjective i guess?)
-outcast and possibly orphan like many other strawhats, no seemingly strong connection to hold her in wano.
-Assuming one piece is reaching its climax, especially if we are to believe the "5 years" thing, and this would be last arc to recruit a member, Tama seems like a good fit. (lots of assumptions but I think it makes sense)
Cons:
-She is a child, some members like to point out no children should be on a "good" pirate crew even though we've had 12 year old Shanks and Buggy on rogers crew, and theres a young girl on Oorlumbus crew being Vice Captain.
- "Shanks didnt take Luffy with him because he was a child, and thus Luffy wont take Tama with him."
I think this statement is extremely overstated. who is to say that shanks simply didn't take Luffy along with him because he wanted and knew he should be the captain of himself to reach his potential? His crew wanted Luffy to join them, but Shanks shut the notion down, either because he simply didnt want to be responsible for Luffy or because of what I said before, either way, I think people are looking way into this.
-boring design and character (subjective)
-annoying character (subjective)
-useless and gimmicky power. (still it is a power, monster taming, that has spawned hundreds of monster taming games, animes and stories)
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"she cant join because usopp will always be to be the weakest member, oda said so."
debatable, if Tama is controlling a monster with the power of surumi, sea kings or even something stronger, then id think tama > usopp. -
Tama is evil, she is controlling smile users and taking away their will and freedom. (yeah people said that)
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"Luffy can already tame beasts as in the case of surumi, ucy and kung fu dugongs."
for me this just shows that monster taming and beasts has always been in the series, and having a character with that niche is just putting a name and advantage of it and it wont really change the narrative into a "monster taming theme" because it has always been there in almost every single arc, either by beasts allying with luffy, or neutral beasts fighting for either side.
and then theres the old Tama is Hiyori, which is debunked lol, but now people are saying tama is hiyoris daughter and other weird stuff.
- "Tama needs to stay in wano so she can learn how to be a kunoichi."
not necessarily true at all, there is nothing that points towards ninja masters or ninja schools for people becoming ninjas except for other anime stereotypes that people like to paste onto one piece, we have seen several ninjas already and they all got unique and individual powers, the only thing that seems to knit them together is that some of them are sneaking or have similar attires.
-"Oda/Luffy cant have a child joining right before the end and when the big war that is about happen."
There is already a big war in wano which Tama is right in the middle of lol, shes proved a bit useful so far, but if she indeed is the new member she will get her spotlight and show why and how she can be a useful member even in wars, fights and conflicts. and dont forget this a shonen manga after all.theres more, but i cant think of it right now.
- "Shanks didnt take Luffy with him because he was a child, and thus Luffy wont take Tama with him."
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Tama will not join because she is momonosuke's future wife, she likely want to stay behind with her future husband. It also fits how momonosuke is zoan and tama can tame zoans, and also called him on his name instead of using the official lord or whatever the rest call him. Shinobu on the other hand, is more likely as the ninja of the crew and ''grandma'' for brook.
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@uniaka:
Tama will not join because she is momonosuke's future wife, she likely want to stay behind with her future husband. It also fits how momonosuke is zoan and tama can tame zoans, and also called him on his name instead of using the official lord or whatever the rest call him. Shinobu on the other hand, is more likely as the ninja of the crew and ''grandma'' for brook.
Yeah, lets throw away all the build up for future character development and dramatic plot lines so Tama can be an 8 year old house wife to an 8 year old wimp, because two children of the opposite genders can simply not just be friends. All this just so Brook can get some mature poonani.
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Thanks! That's helpful. If it's not too much trouble, do you have one of those for Carrot as well?
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Thanks! That's helpful. If it's not too much trouble, do you have one of those for Carrot as well?
Click a random page on this thread and you have 7/10 chances of finding people arguing about Carrot .
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I'm not a fanboy of her, so in that case I'm neutral although certain she will join.
Pros:
-Got a perfect role as Pirate Disciple (like shanks, kaido, marco and others were), its an official position and not something fan made like cabin boy.
-unique design, personality and power that fits within the crew (subjective i guess?)
Cons:
-boring design and character (subjective)
-annoying character (subjective)
-useless and gimmicky power. (still it is a power, monster taming, that has spawned hundreds of monster taming games, animes and stories)
You made so many great neutral points, but then you were everything but neutral as well on other points.
Beast Pirates are after her for the ability, so it isn't useless. Obedient Mountain Gods and SMILE users make a difference.
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You made so many great neutral points, but then you were everything but neutral as well on other points.
Beast Pirates are after her for the ability, so it isn't useless. Obedient Mountain Gods and SMILE users make a difference.
Trying to understand your highlights, but… I dont get your point at all.
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Trying to understand your highlights, but… I dont get your point at all.
You weren't neutral on those points
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You weren't neutral on those points
- "pirate apprentices" (海賊見習い, Kaizoku minarai) are official roles and theres nothing subjective about it, however while my opinion her being the perfetct fit for the role is might not be neutral, theres really no arguing about her wanting to become a pirate and the existence of that position.
Everything else you quoted is just stuff that I brought up because it has been brought up a lot in this this thread, and it doesn't necessarily mean that is my opinion about it.
So I still don't get your point unless you are just trying to be a nitpicking a hole.
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I thought Shanks specifically said he would not take Luffy because he was too young at the time.
We know now that Shanks, Whitebeard, Kaidou and others wrre all at some time part of another pirate crew. So it would not make sense for Shanks to think Luffy needed to depart alone to be a great pirate. He himself was a big bame having been an apprentice before.
I love Tama and want her to join, personally, but I can't get past her age issue (subjective I guess)
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I thought Shanks specifically said he would not take Luffy because he was too young at the time.
We know now that Shanks, Whitebeard, Kaidou and others wrre all at some time part of another pirate crew. So it would not make sense for Shanks to think Luffy needed to depart alone to be a great pirate. He himself was a big bame having been an apprentice before.
I love Tama and want her to join, personally, but I can't get past her age issue (subjective I guess)
yeah true, i was just thinking about how some members were writing and imagining that there seem to be super important pirate codex about not letting children aboard.
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- "pirate apprentices" (海賊見習い, Kaizoku minarai) are official roles and theres nothing subjective about it, however while my opinion her being the perfetct fit for the role is might not be neutral, theres really no arguing about her wanting to become a pirate and the existence of that position.
Everything else you quoted is just stuff that I brought up because it has been brought up a lot in this this thread, and it doesn't necessarily mean that is my opinion about it.
So I still don't get your point unless you are just trying to be a nitpicking a hole.
You keep saying that you don't get my point, but saying that you get my point.
Son asked for a neutral take, then you provided not neutral takes that I highlighted. You sound confused lol
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You keep saying that you don't get my point, but saying that you get my point.
Son asked for a neutral take, then you provided not neutral takes that I highlighted. You sound confused lol
The points you highlighted are some of the arguments that has been brought up against her joining, i kept myself neutral by bringing up all of those points no matter how strong or weak they are instead of just trying to make the ”pro” side look better and provided my own little take on those points.
How can i make other arguments that has been brought up more neutral? Thats why i dont get your point at all. People said she is an annoying character, so brought it up on her con side yet you claim that me bringing up what other people said about her isnt neutral?
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Son asked for a neutral take, then you provided not neutral takes that I highlighted. You sound confused lol
The points you highlighted are some of the arguments that has been brought up against her joining, i kept myself neutral by bringing up all of those points no matter how strong or weak they are instead of just trying to make the ”pro” side look better and provided my own little take on those points.
^ This, I appreciate your concern Cocky but I was happy with the overview. Unless something was missing, it looked perfect to me. Every subjective point was highlighted as such. I didnt want an overview of straight facts, I wanted to see what people on both sides say in favour or against. Subjectivity is naturally going to come into that.
True, there was a lot of personal input in the brackets, but as long as nothing was left out because they thought it was not convincing and therefore not worth mentioning, the overview did its job.
EDIT: now that I'm here again though.. what is Tama's "dream" actually? I know she wants to become a powerful kunoichi, but is that really a dream that counts for the crew? I know we have the likes of Usopp who has similar, personal goals, but I kinda feel like at this point just "becoming" something feels a little.. stale? I prefer the likes of Jimbei's dreams that are relevant for the story. Idk I guess that as we get to see more of Tama, we'd become more invested in it, so it might work.. but I'm kinda hoping for something else if you see what I mean
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I think the misunderstanding lies in your presentation of the arguments for/against Tama joining. While you listed many arguments for both sides, which can be seen as being neutral, you immediately tried to discredit every single con while supporting every pro. What's making it worse is that your take on the arguments is interspersed between them, blurring the lines between argument and opinion.
This, along with your statement that you're certain that Tama will join, makes you not seem neutral about her joining chances, seemingly contradictory to your claim that you are. -
EDIT: now that I'm here again though.. what is Tama's "dream" actually? I know she wants to become a powerful kunoichi, but is that really a dream that counts for the crew? I know we have the likes of Usopp who has similar, personal goals, but I kinda feel like at this point just "becoming" something feels a little.. stale? I prefer the likes of Jimbei's dreams that are relevant for the story. Idk I guess that as we get to see more of Tama, we'd become more invested in it, so it might work.. but I'm kinda hoping for something else if you see what I mean
It started with her asking and wanting to be on Aces crew, and then Ace made a promise to her next time he arrives at Wano he will let her join if she becomes an “enchanting” (sexy, beautiful, essentially a grown up) Kunoichi, so basically the goal is to be an “enchanting” kunoichi in order to achieve the dream of being on his crew is my take on it, but with her finding out that Ace is now dead lets see how that unfolds.
My take is just that her journeys and travels with SHs is what eventually will make her an enchanting kunoichi, and then she will visit Aces grave and say she kept her promise.
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What if she learns to make weapons out of her mochi, like mochi nunchaku? :ninja:
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I think the misunderstanding lies in your presentation of the arguments for/against Tama joining. While you listed many arguments for both sides, which can be seen as being neutral, you immediately tried to discredit every single con while supporting every pro. What's making it worse is that your take on the arguments is interspersed between them, blurring the lines between argument and opinion.
This, along with your statement that you're certain that Tama will join, makes you not seem neutral about her joining chances, seemingly contradictory to your claim that you are.Yeah, I just couldn't make myself writing every con without typing my own take on it lol, nonetheless I brought up every major one I could think of without making them seem weaker than they were originally. (except for Tama being evil or being hiyoris daughter because those are just stupid imo) thus making it neutral. But whatever, this really isnt worth wasting more time on. If anyone else got a problem with it write your own list.
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Franky made nunchaku once, but Zoro stuck his sword in it and ruined everything.
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@Johnny:
What if she learns to make weapons out of her mochi, like mochi nunchaku? :ninja:
sort of like Baby 5
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My dream is that Sir Crocodile will join and be like a sort of Vegeta from Dragon Ball or Jane from Firefly
alas my dream is less likely to come true than either Carrot or Tama so I've got no right to judge :sad:
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My dream is that Sir Crocodile will join and be like a sort of Vegeta from Dragon Ball or Jane from Firefly
alas my dream is less likely to come true than either Carrot or Tama so I've got no right to judge :sad:
Ive always seen Kid as the Vegeta equivalent of One Piece…
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Smoker is more of a Vegeta, but Kid works as well
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Zoro is vegeta enough too.
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I was always more of a Piccolo man myself
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Smoker is more of a Vegeta, but Kid works as well
There is only one panel Smoker is similar to Vegeta. When he looks menacingly at the ice cream kid. Rest of the manga, not so much.
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I was always more of a Piccolo man myself
Im still waiting for my bald tenshinhan-like one piece character… closest we got so far is Pudding lmao
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Garp = Picollo
Roger, if he didn't die = Goku
Ace = GohanOP = the proper sequel to DB
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Law has almost exactly Vegeta's position in One Piece.
- Former Rival
- Complete opposite of the main protagonist in many aspects
- Unexpectedly popular among the fanbase, hijacking the manga to some degree
- Main protagonist-level spotlight
- Eventually becomes a part of the main crew, but not officially
- How specifically Vegeta / Law react to anything is an event in itself
- Is slowly tamed by the charming protagonist
- Still ping-pongs between ally and low-key betrayer, dependability is questioned regularly
Law didn't fight Luffy to the death and he didn't impregnate Vivi yet, but he clearly has Vegeta's "role" in One Piece.
As for Tama, she will join Big Mom's crew / Totland when everything is said and done. The girl who gets to eat rice once a year will live in the land of milk and honey.
- Already formed a bond with Big Mom (and she remembers)
- Wants to see the world
- Has a food based power, fitting the theme
All that needs to happen is a redemption of Big Mom, which you can already smell from a mile away.
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What is Blackbeard's DB equivalent?
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@Johnny:
What is Blackbeard's DB equivalent?
I guess Black Goku? No, Blackbeard isn't evil-evil.
If other series count then he's 100% Gary Oak, though.
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I guess Black Goku? No, Blackbeard isn't evil-evil.
If other series count then he's 100% Gary Oak, though.
I was kinda thinking he was a bit like Demon King Piccolo, in being an anarchist warlord and a old foe to the hero's mentor.
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Law has almost exactly Vegeta's position in One Piece.
**- hijacking the manga to some degree- Main protagonist-level spotlight**
Changed my mind on Smoker, this is all that matters
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Ive always seen Kid as the Vegeta equivalent of One Piece…
As a rival definitely, and law in some capacity too, there scene at Sabody def cemented them as the top guys of the worst generation
and Black Beards his final rival, the ultimate enemy
hell even smoker has a bit of a rival thing going
but in this particular instance I wasn't focusing on the rival aspect, more the enemy who's begrudgingly working with you but you know could flip on you and kill you at any time he wants and eventually through a long series of working together (albeit in a tense environment) ends up becoming an ally you can rely on (again like Jane from Firefly)
also with all this talks about rivals I got to say a shout out to honorable mentions
Goku vs Vegeta (Dragon Ball)
Deku vs Bakugo (my Hero Academia)
Oga vs Tojo (beelzebub)
Kenshiro vs Raoh (Fist of the North Star)
Yusuke vs Hiei (Yu Yu Hakusho)
Asta vs Yuno (Black Clover)
Kenshin vs Saito (Rurouni Kenshin)and dishonorable mentions to
Naruto vs Sasuke (naruto)
Natsu vs Gray (Fairy Tail) -
I guess Black Goku? No, Blackbeard isn't evil-evil.
If other series count then he's 100% Gary Oak, though.
Is that because you can't ignore his girth?
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Don't think Tama is joining but we saw in the last chapter that both Shanks and Buggy were already part of Roger's crew when they were 9 so the argument about only villains allowing kids on their ship is now moot.
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Don't think Tama is joining but we saw in the last chapter that both Shanks and Buggy were already part of Roger's crew when they were 9 so the argument about only villains allowing kids on their ship is now moot.
Exactly, been saying this for a year since Shanks and Buggy were 12 at the ed war, this is just further confirmation.
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How about Shanks simply knew exactly what he was talking about when he declined Luffy? A Pirate Ship is no place for a kid, especially if it could otherwise live in relative peace.
It's just a cruel thing to do, no matter how exciting it may be for a 12 year old (let alone 8, like Tama).The best possible scenario would be a reformed Big Mom taking Tama with her. To Totland though, not as a core member of the Queen Mama Chanter.
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This Tama war might be better than the Monet Wars
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How about Shanks simply knew exactly what he was talking about when he declined Luffy? A Pirate Ship is no place for a kid, especially if it could otherwise live in relative peace.
It's just a cruel thing to do, no matter how exciting it may be for a 12 year old (let alone 8, like Tama).The best possible scenario would be a reformed Big Mom taking Tama with her. To Totland though, not as a core member of the Queen Mama Chanter.
What would be the point of that? Isn't Luffy gonna free Wano so she can eat all she wants there?
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What would be the point of that? Isn't Luffy gonna free Wano so she can eat all she wants there?
Tama's dream is still to leave Wano, see stuff, join a pirate crew.
Joining a redeemed Big Mom accomplishes that, just without putting her in immediate danger. That Totland is a paradise when it comes to food is just a fitting bonus. She wont only get to eat the things that grow in Wano, but dishes from allover the world.
I see no other reason why Oda would let her bond with Big Mom like that.
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How about Shanks simply knew exactly what he was talking about when he declined Luffy? A Pirate Ship is no place for a kid, especially if it could otherwise live in relative peace.
It's just a cruel thing to do, no matter how exciting it may be for a 12 year old (let alone 8, like Tama).The best possible scenario would be a reformed Big Mom taking Tama with her. To Totland though, not as a core member of the Queen Mama Chanter.
Maybe he did, probably he did? Why does it matter though? Luffy isn't Shanks. Luffy wouldn't go to meet the gurosei in private either, he doesn't have the same rational thinking like Shanks does.
And wouldn't the cruel thing be to leave her behind? Especially after all the events at Wano are done and dealt with, when she has proved her worth and finds out about Luffy being Aces brother, which she still doesn't know! Its obviously a key point that is delayed towards the end of the arc when she joins the crew!Tama's dream is still to leave Wano, see stuff, join a pirate crew.
Yes, yes and yes! Exactly!
Joining a redeemed Big Mom accomplishes that, just without putting her in immediate danger. That Totland is a paradise when it comes to food is just a fitting bonus. She wont only get to eat the things that grow in Wano, but dishes from allover the world.
I see no other reason why Oda would let her bond with Big Mom like that.
Wait, what? What is this madness? lol Tama joining the big mom pirates? haha
Her bonding with Big mom is just further main-character traits that she is showcasing, she can do and will do stuff that the other crew members can not do, thus proving her worth to be a strawhat.
Her bonding with Big mom could be a dealbreaker later down the line if the Kaido and Big mom alliance fall apart, a perfect plot point to to set up Big Mom against Kaido imo if it happens. -
Tama's dream is still to leave Wano, see stuff, join a pirate crew.
Joining a redeemed Big Mom accomplishes that, just without putting her in immediate danger. That Totland is a paradise when it comes to food is just a fitting bonus. She wont only get to eat the things that grow in Wano, but dishes from allover the world.
I see no other reason why Oda would let her bond with Big Mom like that.
She also has a dream of becoming a kunoichi, which is (on the surface, at least) a very Wano-centric goal. Sure, O-tama could gain the individual skills expected of a ninja elsewhere, but that wouldn't necessarily make her a true "kunoichi" any more than your generic swordsman can call himself a samurai.
Also, redeemed or not, I'm not sure how comfortable I'd be putting any child in Big Mom's care…
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Based on the story so far, the most possible for Tama is
3 BM crew in some capacity
2 SH
1 Momo's retainer, which could be a SH if Momo ventures out 1 day -
Momo wil impregnate Tama in 10 to 20 years.
If Luffy was to take a kid on his boat I would expect her to know how to defend her herself. Even Momo at least has a fruit. I guess she could go with Big Mom but Im not even sure she does much travelling anymore. It seems she mostly lives in her fairyland and what Tama wants is travel. If anything I see her as a potential someone to visit in a epilogue.
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I wouldn't call what O-Lin and Tama were doing as bonding especially enough to leave her home, nor do I see Tama joining the strawhats.
No matter what Tama is a kid, she is 8 years old and even if she were to join she would be weaker the Usopp was at any point (by word of god Usopp will always be the weakest Strawhat), she is a 8 year old girl and Jump, Oda (who is softer as time has gone on with kids and not only that female characters) or anime production would have a problem with her fighting especially when by the end is she were to join fight one of these guys:
Her wanting to travel out at sea and be a pirate, kounichi, whatever doesn't have to happen now.. I didn't happen for Luffy or Oden.
Even more so her joining undercuts the message of the first chapter and what Luffy needed to learn and what Shanks taught him there is no arguing this point really, Shanks is Luffys idol/mentor figure and clearly took most of the messages he taught Luffy to heart
but even if you want to say ohh Roger let Shanks and Buggy join his crew when they were young well guess what…..
Luffy isn't Shanks nor is he Roger, they are each there own separate people.
The will they share is more for adventure, the spirits, etc and the passing of the hat is more a symbol of whom they believe best fits what it means to be a Pirate, to be free etc not to be literal copies of each other.
Luffy will be better then the two the held the hat before him.
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Momo wil impregnate Tama in 10 to 20 years.
If Luffy was to take a kid on his boat I would expect her to know how to defend her herself. Even Momo at least has a fruit. I guess she could go with Big Mom but Im not even sure she does much travelling anymore. It seems she mostly lives in her fairyland and what Tama wants is travel. If anything I see her as a potential someone to visit in a epilogue.
Just like how Usopp impregnated Kaya, Law impregnated Baby 5 or Kohza impregnated Vivi?
Did you forget Tama actually has a fruit power…....? And she already tried to defend herself against Kaido of all the people...
--- Update From New Post Merge ---
I wouldn't call what O-Lin and Tama were doing as bonding especially enough to leave her home, nor do I see Tama joining the strawhats.
No matter what Tama is a kid, she is 8 years old and even if she were to join she would be weaker the Usopp was at any point (by word of god Usopp will always be the weakest Strawhat), she is a 8 year old girl and Jump, Oda (who is softer as time has gone on with kids and not only that female characters) or anime production would have a problem with her fighting especially when by the end is she were to join fight one of these guys:
Her wanting to travel out at sea and be a pirate, kounichi, whatever doesn't have to happen now.. I didn't happen for Luffy or Oden.
Even more so her joining undercuts the message of the first chapter and what Luffy needed to learn and what Shanks taught him there is no arguing this point really, Shanks is Luffys idol/mentor figure and clearly took most of the messages he taught Luffy to heart
but even if you want to say ohh Roger let Shanks and Buggy join his crew when they were young well guess what…..
Luffy isn't Shanks nor is he Roger, they are each there own separate people.
The will they share is more for adventure, the spirits, etc and the passing of the hat is more a symbol of whom they believe best fits what it means to be a Pirate, to be free etc not to be literal copies of each other.
Luffy will be better then the two the held the hat before him.
As I said before, it is so easy to take "Usopp will always be the weakest" out of context. Weakest how? In a general combat? Id like to see him take on all of Tamas current pets all at once, Komachiyo, Hihimaru, Speed, Babanuki and other potential uber pets. Weakest as in physical strength? Nami is already weaker than him. Weakest mental strength? Tama befriended big mom and head the udon prison without a doubt in her mind, she is already more brave than him.
It doesn't undercut the message form those panels you posted, that other thing about not letting Luffy on the ship wasn't nearly as strong or even a message at all, heck even Shanks crew wanted him on the crew.
The whole thing about Tamas age is a part of what makes her strawhat material, she represents a new generation in the crew while also being the perfect candidate for a pirate disciple, and that is the only official position left that the strawhats are missing.as for the blackbeard pirates match up… that is easy, just let her tame a giant ass pet and have a kaiju fight against sanjuan wolf.
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I'm starting to miss the discussions about Carrot
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Perona is still more likely than either Monet or Carrot.