Why are people acting like Oden was one of their real life relatives ?
Chapter 920: For Love of Oden
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Why are people acting like Oden was one of their real life relatives ?
I thought you’re calling bullshit on the reactions of Kin’emon and the rest. What’s that got to do with real life?
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If the consensus is that Moria plays in this arc, do you all think we'll see
a 5000 strong zombie samurai army joining the fight?Maybe led by a boiled limp Oden /sorrynotsorry
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Am I the only one who thinks Ashura is probably one of the nine samurai of odens group?
I was watching Robin Hood recently and Robin Hood beats little John in a fight and then little john and everyone falls under him, idk I thought it might be similar, Oden beats Ashura and then Ashura joins his group and everyone else follows
I actually think this as well since Oden humanized all the ruffians.
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@Forseeable:
If the consensus is that Moria plays in this arc, do you all think we'll see
a 5000 strong zombie samurai army joining the fight?Maybe led by a boiled limp Oden /sorrynotsorry
It depends what Moriah was doing in these 2years . When he escaped from MArineford we can presume he has lost all his zombie/army and was left only with, if lucky, Absalom and Hogback. Don't think he could've gathered 5000 strong unnoticed in the new World and right in Kaidou's territory.
Probably only some of the Allied fleet will come and some later. Or Usopp gonna lie again
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Am I the only one who got the sense we didn’t see the flashback the Strawhats were reacting to? I read that scene like Kinemon was detailing Oden’s tragic backstory and we were only seeing the crews’ emotional response. This makes me think Oden’s full backstory is being withheld for whatever reason. It was still very jarring and confusing — but it makes more sense in terms of the reaction it elicited.
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Am I the only one who got the sense we didn’t see the flashback the Strawhats were reacting to? I read that scene like Kinemon was detailing Oden’s tragic backstory and we were only seeing the crews’ emotional response. This makes me think Oden’s full backstory is being withheld for whatever reason. It was still very jarring and confusing — but it makes more sense in terms of the reaction it elicited.
don't think you are the only one since it's exactly what happened
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People, during page 9 (Jaiminisbox) the time is passing fast. Oda is framing a few reaction to the entire story, that is probably huge.
It's not like people started crying after 20 seconds, lol.
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Exactly, I don't even understand how some got that confused…
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It doesn't matter how long it took in-universe.
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Who thinks that Oden is an author-avatar and champions all of Odas sociopolitical opinions?
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It doesn't matter how long it took in-universe.
So explain your argument better, because your complaint is about how long it took for them to cry as if they are not supposed to do that so suddenly.
It's not intended for you to cry because the story was omitted to you. You are only witnessing the Strawhats' reaction, and it doesn't matter if they started crying after one panel or two pages, because the story was omitted and therefore there is nothing to guide the timing of the tears.
It's an elegant technique to show the flow of time between the beginning and the end of Oden's story.
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Everyone who's criticizing the Straw Hats for having emotional reactions to hearing about their friend's parents being murdered really need to re-read Chapter 819.
This is the face of a child who wants desperately to avenge his parents but isn't remotely strong enough to. So he literally begs Luffy for help because at this point he has no one else to turn to that can actually help him.
But you know what else? The Straw Hats aren't just listening to the tale of any man. This is Oden, the man who charmed Roger and Whitebeard. He's SO charismatic he made friends with Roger and Whitebeard at a time when both of them probably hated each other.
The last thing you all are missing is the most important and vital. The Straw Hats aren't just hearing stories about Oden. They're hearing stories about a member of the Roger Pirates. I cannot put into words or stress just how vital this is. Think back to how INTENSE the atmosphere was when we met Rayleigh. It wasn't JUST because Rayleigh was the second-in-command. It's because we haven't SEEN many members of Roger's crew, and EACH and EVERY one of them is a legendary figure in this world both in terms of the lore and the weight they have on the reader. Don't believe me? Tom was executed just for BUILDING their fucking ship. He wasn't even part of the crew!
Case in point, you'd better believe once my boy Scopper Gaban shows up again things are gonna get intense af. The WEIGHT of meeting or even HEARING about a member of the Roger Pirates, dead or alive, is beyond critical. The Roger Pirates and the impact they had on this world is almost what the whole story is framed on, if you think about it. The very first goddamn panel of the entire manga is of Roger!!
These are the faces of people enjoying hearing stories about a member of the fucking Roger Pirates who was PART of the crew when they made it to Raftel. Oden was JUST as integral and as much of a genuine member of the crew as much as Crocus was.
And figuring out more about who that man was as a person, and seeing first hand the warm and fond memories his retainers (THEIR FRIENDS) have for the man.
Nami starts tearing up, sure, but you notice how the panels of Chopper/Brook/Carrot crying are shown AFTER the panels of Kinemon, Kiku, and Momo absolutely breaking down into tears?
TL;DR it's called empathy, people. The fact that the Straw Hats can feel strong empathy for the sorrows of people they care about is what makes them HEROES and the PROTAGONISTS. They didn't JUST meet Momo or Kinemon, they've known them for a while now and we as readers have known them for YEARS.
So yeah, if you think it's questionable that the Straw Hats could have strong reactions to hearing detailed and emotional tales of a former member of the Roger Pirates, while at the same time understanding why he was so beloved on Wano in the first place, then hearing about how he was murdered by the current Pirate they're gunning after, what series have you been reading for the past 900 chapters?
100 chapters ago Luffy already agreed to avenge Momo's parents. Now we're getting the context of why that decision was so impactful to Momo, Kinemon, etc. Luffy didn't need to hear this shit to want to help Momo out, but now we have a much clearer idea of WHY Kaidou murdering Oden is such a big fucking deal.
ARE YOU PEOPLE NOT TAKING YOUR BRAIN MEDICINE? YOU KNOW, THE MEDICINE THAT HELPS YOU THINK?
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We knew Momo's dad was killed. But in his story Kinemon also told them who Oden was, and the treachery caused by Orochi that led to his death (including details about accusation and method of execution).
This is a story that Oda is working his way into telling us himself. And he is signalling the readers that it will be sad and emotional. Are we pre-hating that flashback already?
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I actually think this as well since Oden humanized all the ruffians.
Glad someone agrees with me! I think Zoro will probs meet him in that house he saw and we might learn some more about Zoro's Ashura mode from him
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Why are people acting like Oden was one of their real life relatives ?
I am just a reader but at some moments reading a comic about a pirate who can make his body a rubber could make me cry.What does a relative has got to do, SH could feel that Oden is a kind man and probably the whole story about him and the way of his death made them feel emphaty towards him and Momo.I like the fact that this part of the story remind me of Luffy in skypiea when hearing Norland and Calgara's story. For e that mini story of Norland and Calgara was the best part of One piece.
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Gotta love how Zoro is so clueless about himself getting lost, he's going to make it even worse by hitching a ride on a freaking boat.
It looks like that boat is one of the 3 boats heading for Onigashima where Kaido resides, lol I find it hard to believe that Luffy and co would stay put for 2 whole weeks, I mean even 2 days are too much for Luffy and Zoro.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
@K.:
I really don't think the fleet will be involved at all. At least from what we got so far.
If they were going to be asked to join the fight against Kaido, why were they not told at the end of Dressrosa? Kaido was already a target.
Well they may have read the news paper and decided to go help their boss against 2 Emperors? Wano was mentioned by name.
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Well they may have read the news paper and decided to go help their boss against 2 Emperors? Wano was mentioned by name.
True, I just found that their involvement would be because Luffy asked for help. Like he was saying at the end of Dressrosa: we are friends, if you ever need help, just call for help and we will do the same.
So, I took that as literal. That is why I think their involvement will be held off until the Final War, where Luffy might do an announcement to the world to fight, that he needs help.
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Another week, Another Awesome Chapter, but My back is paining so much… Anyways Enjoy!!
https://image.ibb.co/mohUeK/01.pngREAD CHAPTER 920 HERE
READ THE CHAPTER 919 Review/Reactions HEREI think that silhouette was his dad, Sukiyaki. It looks like an older figure not that of someone barely in their 20s. Kin'mon just mentioned Sukiyaki too before that panel.
But you never now with Oda's silhouettes
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@Miss:
@ all the people on here who told me Kaido would most definitely be fought at the end of this arc and was residing in Wano all along.
Hi. What's up.Wano is based on Japan which has 4 'main' islands and is surrounded by some 200+ islands.
In the story of Momotarou, the island where the oni live, Onigashima, is a small island off the coast of Honshu, Japan's largest island. It's considered by many to be based on a small island off the coast of Okayama.
So, probably a bit too early to spike that football.
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Even now I still find it rather weird why Luffy and law targeted BM and kaidou rather than perhaps, BM and BB or kaidou and BB.We know BB owe something to Luffy, his brothers life.Anyway, did at that time Luffy know that it was Teach who capture Law and surrender him to Marine?Other probability is that the whereabout of BB isn't as well known as Kaidou and BM to Law, so they headed where it's the clearest route.
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Even now I still find it rather weird why Luffy and law targeted BM and kaidou rather than perhaps, BM and BB or kaidou and BB.We know BB owe something to Luffy, his brothers life.Anyway, did at that time Luffy know that it was Teach who capture Law and surrender him to Marine?Other probability is that the whereabout of BB isn't as well known as Kaidou and BM to Law, so they headed where it's the clearest route.
Law initially wasn't planning on actually targeting Kaido. His goal was to take out Doflamingo's SMILE production and get Kaido to kill Doffy in order to avenge Corazon.
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Even now I still find it rather weird why Luffy and law targeted BM and kaidou rather than perhaps, BM and BB or kaidou and BB.We know BB owe something to Luffy, his brothers life.Anyway, did at that time Luffy know that it was Teach who capture Law and surrender him to Marine?Other probability is that the whereabout of BB isn't as well known as Kaidou and BM to Law, so they headed where it's the clearest route.
Law wanted to target Doflamingo first and foremost, so he used the pretense of wanting to go after Kaido. And even then, he wanted to go about it indirectly, where he'd manipulate Kaido into taking him out. Of course, the plans changed, and Luffy just rolled with it, since he wanted to kick Doflamingo's ass regardless. After defeating Doflamingo and destroying the factory, that was essentially declaring an act of war against Kaido, so even if Law wanted to back out, it'd be far too late to do so.
As for Big Mom, Law never set out to target her, and him and Luffy certainly never planned on taking them on at the same time. Luffy already had established beef with her in Fishman Island, then the whole thing with Sanji happened. During the WCI arc, it was only then that Luffy explicitly stated that he'd go after Big Mom once they had taken care of Kaido in Ch. 871.
So that's how you end up with Luffy having to deal with two Yonkos at basically the same time. Law right now has no idea that Big Mom plans on coming to Wano; we don't even know if he'd be willing to help Luffy take her down.
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Reminder that there is no chapter this week.
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At first I thought it was his dad too… but the very next panel... where he fights with Ashura... made it clear that it was Oden's Silhoutte.
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Wano is based on Japan which has 4 'main' islands and is surrounded by some 200+ islands.
In the story of Momotarou, the island where the oni live, Onigashima, is a small island off the coast of Honshu, Japan's largest island. It's considered by many to be based on a small island off the coast of Okayama.
So, probably a bit too early to spike that football.
This is a good opportunity to mention that you called this place being Onigashima over three years ago when chapter 793 came out(1:09:00):
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Vegapunk could have eaten the inverse time fruit: his only goes back in time, and he actually is from 500 years in the future.
Downside to this theory is that Franky actually visited his birthplace (what was described as being that). And also, it would be a crazy paradox that Vegapunk helped develop the cience that led to the future science of 500 years later which inspired him in the first place…..Or if he just invented a time machine, that would work to let him go back-and-forth. Surely he's dabbled in that. Who says his parents didn't come from such a future and passed on the knowledge to him or something? Ah, this whole opening a can of worms from time travel is nothing but trouble. Writers need to really be careful when they do that with their stories. But I guess if it's restricted to sending people to the future, rather than the past, it can't cause any paradoxes, but I bet there'll be at least one noticeable continuity retcon.
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The whole Law/Kaido angle has been weirdly handled.
First, Law is seen enacting a master plan that involves, among other things, discovering and integrating himself on Punk Hazard in order to dismantle the SAD production and thus cripple Kaidos SMILE supply completely. This gels well with the takedown of Kaido being his long term goal, which is revealed in a dramatic fashion, after his declearation is initially omitted in order to generate suspense. By destroying the SAD and capturing Caesar, Law has also already rendered Doflamingo useless to Kaido, thus endangering him.Then on Dressrosa the goalposts shift to Law desiring nothing but personally killing Doflamingo in order to avenge Rocinante, to the point where he’s willing to discard his life. Suddenly nothing about the Kaido plan seems to matter, even after Law at one point objects that Kaido should be the one to target Doflamingo, not them.
But anyway, Doflamingo gets defeated, and Law has thus achieved his lifelong objective of revenge, surviving with his life despite his best efforts. Theres been payoff to the biggest, most emotional goal of the character. In contrast, Law has absolutely no emotional stakes in the Kaido takedown, and no motivation to do it except “Just Cause”.
So of course, Law goes right back onto the “Kaido Takedown Masterplan” railroad tracks without skipping a beat, because apparently he does care, even though he didn’t really care. Maybe he just feel committed, and is embarrassed to back out.
Overall, my guess is that the whole Law/Doflamingo plotline was finalized rather late, which would explain why the Law/Kaido plotline feels wonky.
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@Daz:
The whole Law/Kaido angle has been weirdly handled.
First, Law is seen enacting a master plan that involves, among other things, discovering and integrating himself on Punk Hazard in order to dismantle the SAD production and thus cripple Kaidos SMILE supply completely. This gels well with the takedown of Kaido being his long term goal, which is revealed in a dramatic fashion, after his declearation is initially omitted in order to generate suspense. By destroying the SAD and capturing Caesar, Law has also already rendered Doflamingo useless to Kaido, thus endangering him.It is possible that Law was there initially to just scout around, get an idea of what Doflamingo's operations were all about and how best to take him out. Then in the process, he started figuring out a way to attract allies to his side he could use, knowing full well this would never work with him operating on his own. Kinemon's arrival was a good first step, and Luffy's group responding to the distress call and then bringing in Smoker's people, while chaotic, did achieve the desired result. So while it wasn't the best plan from the beginning, necessarily, it did come together by him not jumping the gun.
Then on Dressrosa the goalposts shift to Law desiring nothing but personally killing Doflamingo in order to avenge Rocinante, to the point where he’s willing to discard his life. Suddenly nothing about the Kaido plan seems to matter, even after Law at one point objects that Kaido should be the one to target Doflamingo, not them.
When you want to get revenge on someone to the level Law does, especially when Doflamingo took his revenge on Corazon by shooting him in the face personally, you kind of want them to know it was you and watch their eyes go dark and lifeless. At that point, Law probably wanted to gloat in Doflamingo's face about being the instrument of his destruction, in the name of his brother and avenging him.
But anyway, Doflamingo gets defeated, and Law has thus achieved his lifelong objective of revenge, surviving with his life despite his best efforts. Theres been payoff to the biggest, most emotional goal of the character. In contrast, Law has absolutely no emotional stakes in the Kaido takedown, and no motivation to do it except “Just Cause”.
Yeah, that's where Law loses me. I can't even argue that it's because Bepo's a Mink and he's doing it for Bepo's sake. I mean, he owes the Straw Hats a debt that really almost can't be repaid, so in that sense, I suppose he considers it an unspoken duty, but he's also a D and also part of the worst generation, so it's probably in his blood and instinct to take down illegitimate authority like Kaido.
So of course, Law goes right back onto the “Kaido Takedown Masterplan” railroad tracks without skipping a beat, because apparently he does care, even though he didn’t really care. Maybe he just feel committed, and is embarrassed to back out.
This guy teamed up with Straw Hat Luffy. He's way beyond the point of letting a little thing like embarrassment bother him.
Overall, my guess is that the whole Law/Doflamingo plotline was finalized rather late, which would explain why the Law/Kaido plotline feels wonky.
It felt out of place in terms of the Samurai plotline, to be sure.
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@Daz:
The whole Law/Kaido angle has been weirdly handled.
First, Law is seen enacting a master plan that involves, among other things, discovering and integrating himself on Punk Hazard in order to dismantle the SAD production and thus cripple Kaidos SMILE supply completely. This gels well with the takedown of Kaido being his long term goal, which is revealed in a dramatic fashion, after his declearation is initially omitted in order to generate suspense. By destroying the SAD and capturing Caesar, Law has also already rendered Doflamingo useless to Kaido, thus endangering him.Then on Dressrosa the goalposts shift to Law desiring nothing but personally killing Doflamingo in order to avenge Rocinante, to the point where he’s willing to discard his life. Suddenly nothing about the Kaido plan seems to matter, even after Law at one point objects that Kaido should be the one to target Doflamingo, not them.
But anyway, Doflamingo gets defeated, and Law has thus achieved his lifelong objective of revenge, surviving with his life despite his best efforts. Theres been payoff to the biggest, most emotional goal of the character. In contrast, Law has absolutely no emotional stakes in the Kaido takedown, and no motivation to do it except “Just Cause”.
So of course, Law goes right back onto the “Kaido Takedown Masterplan” railroad tracks without skipping a beat, because apparently he does care, even though he didn’t really care. Maybe he just feel committed, and is embarrassed to back out.
Overall, my guess is that the whole Law/Doflamingo plotline was finalized rather late, which would explain why the Law/Kaido plotline feels wonky.
Very well put.
There's also the fact that Oda just seems to keep Law around "just because". His role in Dressrosa was integral, but usually if characters have such big roles with flashback and background story and personal vendetta and all that stuff, but are not part of the Strawhat Crew, these roles are contained for one or two arcs. There's also the fact that the other important Supernova besides Law (namely Kid) has recieved that much attention or almost no attention at all. Though that might change now.
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@Daz:
The whole Law/Kaido angle has been weirdly handled.
First, Law is seen enacting a master plan that involves, among other things, discovering and integrating himself on Punk Hazard in order to dismantle the SAD production and thus cripple Kaidos SMILE supply completely. This gels well with the takedown of Kaido being his long term goal, which is revealed in a dramatic fashion, after his declearation is initially omitted in order to generate suspense. By destroying the SAD and capturing Caesar, Law has also already rendered Doflamingo useless to Kaido, thus endangering him.Then on Dressrosa the goalposts shift to Law desiring nothing but personally killing Doflamingo in order to avenge Rocinante, to the point where he’s willing to discard his life. Suddenly nothing about the Kaido plan seems to matter, even after Law at one point objects that Kaido should be the one to target Doflamingo, not them.
But anyway, Doflamingo gets defeated, and Law has thus achieved his lifelong objective of revenge, surviving with his life despite his best efforts. Theres been payoff to the biggest, most emotional goal of the character. In contrast, Law has absolutely no emotional stakes in the Kaido takedown, and no motivation to do it except “Just Cause”.
So of course, Law goes right back onto the “Kaido Takedown Masterplan” railroad tracks without skipping a beat, because apparently he does care, even though he didn’t really care. Maybe he just feel committed, and is embarrassed to back out.
Overall, my guess is that the whole Law/Doflamingo plotline was finalized rather late, which would explain why the Law/Kaido plotline feels wonky.
It should feel wonky, as Law/Kaido was only a cover up. It was in Punk Hazard and it was confirmed in Dressrosa where we saw his motivations. In other words, even though the plan would effectively weaken Kaido, Law could not care less about the emperor, all he cared about was Mango.
However, Law started changing with the interactions with the Straw Hats. When at first they were just a means to an end, his vengeance. Law is not a cold hearted guy even though that is what he wishes we thought of him. That's why he was willing to sacrifice himself to allow the Straw Hats to escape. The plan may have always been to let Kaido kill Doffy, but Law being so close to his mortal enemy, just made him discard all rationale. So when Luffy tells Rebecca he will drop Mango, Law reminds him about the plan, to which Luffy says: we can think about that later, there are pressing issues at hand. This is also after Law was beaten by Doffy so one sided, he probably did not think Luffy would stand a chance.
So once Mango is defeated, and his 10 year long revenge fulfilled, he is indebted to the Straw Hats to just up and leave. Even though that was not his main mission, it was for Luffy, and when meeting the Minks he pokes fun at it because of Luffy accepting the alliance without his consent. So now that he is legitimately part of the alliance, without an ulterior motive, he will go back to making plans. He may not be as emotionally invested as Luffy is, but Law is honorable enough to stick to his words.
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@Daz:
But anyway, Doflamingo gets defeated, and Law has thus achieved his lifelong objective of revenge, surviving with his life despite his best efforts. Theres been payoff to the biggest, most emotional goal of the character. In contrast, Law has absolutely no emotional stakes in the Kaido takedown, and no motivation to do it except “Just Cause”.
So of course, Law goes right back onto the “Kaido Takedown Masterplan” railroad tracks without skipping a beat, because apparently he does care, even though he didn’t really care. Maybe he just feel committed, and is embarrassed to back out.
Overall, my guess is that the whole Law/Doflamingo plotline was finalized rather late, which would explain why the Law/Kaido plotline feels wonky.
I don't know why you're seeing it that way. Law spelled out to us what would happen if they decided to take out Doflamingo directly rather than indirectly. Doflamingo forced their hand first with the resignation deception, and definitively later on with the Birdcage, making it so that they were forced to get rid of him. They took him out, so now as a result, Kaido is targeting the both of them. Unless he wants to guarantee his death, there's no reason for him to not maintain the alliance.
Maybe he does cares. Maybe he truly does feel indebted to Luffy now. Maybe as a rebellious Supernova who does want to find One Piece, he'd eventually attempt to take down the Yonko regardless. But before all of that, Law knows he's now forced down this path because it's either that or inevitable death.
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@Daz:
The whole Law/Kaido angle has been weirdly handled.
First, Law is seen enacting a master plan that involves, among other things, discovering and integrating himself on Punk Hazard in order to dismantle the SAD production and thus cripple Kaidos SMILE supply completely. This gels well with the takedown of Kaido being his long term goal, which is revealed in a dramatic fashion, after his declearation is initially omitted in order to generate suspense. By destroying the SAD and capturing Caesar, Law has also already rendered Doflamingo useless to Kaido, thus endangering him.Then on Dressrosa the goalposts shift to Law desiring nothing but personally killing Doflamingo in order to avenge Rocinante, to the point where he’s willing to discard his life. Suddenly nothing about the Kaido plan seems to matter, even after Law at one point objects that Kaido should be the one to target Doflamingo, not them.
But anyway, Doflamingo gets defeated, and Law has thus achieved his lifelong objective of revenge, surviving with his life despite his best efforts. Theres been payoff to the biggest, most emotional goal of the character. In contrast, Law has absolutely no emotional stakes in the Kaido takedown, and no motivation to do it except “Just Cause”.
So of course, Law goes right back onto the “Kaido Takedown Masterplan” railroad tracks without skipping a beat, because apparently he does care, even though he didn’t really care. Maybe he just feel committed, and is embarrassed to back out.
Overall, my guess is that the whole Law/Doflamingo plotline was finalized rather late, which would explain why the Law/Kaido plotline feels wonky.
I mean it's nice to want to see Law as a tactician/strategist who is behind the plan to take down Kaido.
But let me be honest and point it out as it is, Law initial motivation to take down Kaido(not talking about anything Doffy) was just used as a plot device/trigger to spark the whole thing.
Luffy is not a planner by any means nor will he think up of plans that only a personality like Law will so to prevent out of character for him and the straw hats too(the smart ones won't go after Kaido anyway and Zoro fearless as he may be doesn't really see a need). So Law is by no means anything more than an instigator and he served his purpose of setting Luffy against Kaidou.
It's a clever trick but can feel cheap because of the lack of emotional stake and a mistake in characterization especially when your characters make actions based on emotions than freedom.
It's because our heroes are written the way they are: peace lovers, never invoking trouble, somehow "landing" into one and conveniently have to save the day.
So Oda always have to use his books of "new coincidences" to unleash on them instead of them just attacking others straight on. Law is just another one of those that he is able to use not once, but twice(with a lesser almost non-existent emotional stake).
Granted, Oda could easily let Kaidou be involved in Law's backstory but that would be overboard. -
Well Law is a pirate too, and one of the top 11 of his generation. He is aiming for ONEPIECE he is bound to duke it out with an emperor eventually like most of them did. He stated many times that his alliance with the Strawhats ends when they defeat Kaido.
Law had a personal motivation against Doflamingo, he even left out his crew and was ready to give up his life, but that doesn't mean Doflamingo was his only goal.
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@K.:
It should feel wonky, as Law/Kaido was only a cover up. It was in Punk Hazard and it was confirmed in Dressrosa where we saw his motivations. In other words, even though the plan would effectively weaken Kaido, Law could not care less about the emperor, all he cared about was Mango.
But at Punk Hazard, the framing and storytelling choices explicitly suggested that Law was serious about Kaidou. The plan supported this, and throghout a good portion of Dressrosa, Law was still pushing for the Kaido plot over targeting Doflamingo…until suddenly, the Kaido plot didn't matter, andrevenge against Doflamingo was the only thing that ever mattered.
And then, suddenly, Kaido apparently does matter. Its wonky in the sense that Laws motivation and ultimate goal are in flux; once Doflamingo is beaten, theres no recontextualization or exploration of why he wants to take doen Kaido, still – Law just snaps back to it as a default mode because the plot requires it.
@K.:
However, Law started changing with the interactions with the Straw Hats. When at first they were just a means to an end, his vengeance. Law is not a cold hearted guy even though that is what he wishes we thought of him. That's why he was willing to sacrifice himself to allow the Straw Hats to escape. The plan may have always been to let Kaido kill Doffy, but Law being so close to his mortal enemy, just made him discard all rationale**.** So when Luffy tells Rebecca he will drop Mango, Law reminds him about the plan, to which Luffy says: we can think about that later, there are pressing issues at hand. This is also after Law was beaten by Doffy so one sided, he probably did not think Luffy would stand a chance.
So on the one hand you’re saying Law wants to leave Doflamingo be, due to a rational assessment of the situation, but on the other hand, he’s itching such bloodlust at fighting Doflamingo? This is the disconnect that I’m talking about, and the switch between them is never dramatized. Instead, when Law confronts Doflamingo for the final time he talks of how his lifes goal was be here and pull the trigger that Corazon couldn’t (twice, even), as if he wasn’t pushing for the elaborate Kaido scheme five minutes ago. Doflamingos defeat can’t both be Laws secret endgoal, and some spur-of-the-moment act of passion.
@K.:
So once Mango is defeated, and his 10 year long revenge fulfilled, he is indebted to the Straw Hats to just up and leave. Even though that was not his main mission, it was for Luffy, and when meeting the Minks he pokes fun at it because of Luffy accepting the alliance without his consent. So now that he is legitimately part of the alliance, without an ulterior motive, he will go back to making plans. He may not be as emotionally invested as Luffy is, but Law is honorable enough to stick to his words.
But its still building off the exact masterplan Law presented at Punk Hazard, and Law is still fussing over Luffy, and trying to keep him in line. Theres no dramatization of Law feeling indebted to Luffy or being a mardedly changed man, It’s the same dynamic as before, with Dressrosa as some weird blip inbetween arcs where Law accomplishing his actual, lifelong objective that had nothing to do with Kaido.
Simply put, the manga has never established why Law still gives a shit about this whole Kaido plot.–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Again, I think the part issue here is that the Law/Doflamingo dynamic was being written into the story very late. Consider this:
Law visits Doflamingos auction house at Sabaody. Disco reports this to Doflamingo. And there is absolutely zero indication that Law or Doflamingo have any sort of connection. No reaction from Doflamingo at hearing Law was there, no disapproving scowl from Law at the auction house (well, he had another personality back then, to be fair). And it’s the same deal with the war. Law- who has what Doflamingo desires more than anything in the whole world- shows up at Marineford. Again, there is no indication that the characters know each other. Doflamingo just laughs at Luffys escape – not that Law helps him. -
Well, Law probably didn't anticipated how the whole Dressrossa plan would go and most likely didn't anticipated that they could really defeat Doflamingo in one sweep. He probably had a more complex plan layout where, as you said, he just wanted to put Doflamingo on the bad side of Kaidou so he could take care of him somehow.
Law didn't think Luffy will get so wrapped up in the whole Dressrosa context and would go that far for him (considering they are pirates) and when he saw a glimpse of what could happen and that Doflamingo's defeat could be a possibility and no longer a dream, then he acted with his heart instead of his mind.
As everyone is out there to get One Piece, they are bound to get involved in all the "behind the curtain" plot that is surfacing here and there (i mean the one with the Void Century, what happend before, such and such) and the protagonists will eventually fight for the right cause instead of just settling with finding "One Piece" and living the dream.
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@Daz:
Again, I think the part issue here is that the Law/Doflamingo dynamic was being written into the story very late. Consider this:
Law visits Doflamingos auction house at Sabaody. Disco reports this to Doflamingo. And there is absolutely zero indication that Law or Doflamingo have any sort of connection. No reaction from Doflamingo at hearing Law was there, no disapproving scowl from Law at the auction house (well, he had another personality back then, to be fair). And it’s the same deal with the war. Law- who has what Doflamingo desires more than anything in the whole world- shows up at Marineford. Again, there is no indication that the characters know each other. Doflamingo just laughs at Luffys escape – not that Law helps him.Yeah, normally Oda is all about hints and foreshadowings.
Think it might also be partly due to fact he ended up introducing Supernova earlier than he originally planned.
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@Daz:
The whole Law/Kaido angle has been weirdly handled.
First, Law is seen enacting a master plan that involves, among other things, discovering and integrating himself on Punk Hazard in order to dismantle the SAD production and thus cripple Kaidos SMILE supply completely. This gels well with the takedown of Kaido being his long term goal, which is revealed in a dramatic fashion, after his declearation is initially omitted in order to generate suspense. By destroying the SAD and capturing Caesar, Law has also already rendered Doflamingo useless to Kaido, thus endangering him.Then on Dressrosa the goalposts shift to Law desiring nothing but personally killing Doflamingo in order to avenge Rocinante, to the point where he’s willing to discard his life. Suddenly nothing about the Kaido plan seems to matter, even after Law at one point objects that Kaido should be the one to target Doflamingo, not them.
But anyway, Doflamingo gets defeated, and Law has thus achieved his lifelong objective of revenge, surviving with his life despite his best efforts. Theres been payoff to the biggest, most emotional goal of the character. In contrast, Law has absolutely no emotional stakes in the Kaido takedown, and no motivation to do it except “Just Cause”.
So of course, Law goes right back onto the “Kaido Takedown Masterplan” railroad tracks without skipping a beat, because apparently he does care, even though he didn’t really care. Maybe he just feel committed, and is embarrassed to back out.
Overall, my guess is that the whole Law/Doflamingo plotline was finalized rather late, which would explain why the Law/Kaido plotline feels wonky.
Law’s Bonner for Doffy only got intense when Doffy told him that he was a Fallen Celestial dragon. Before that he would’ve settled for dismantling Doffy to the point of weakening Kaidou and ultimately defeating him and AS A BONUS Doffy gets served. We still never actually asked why he wanted to take down Kaidou, we don’t know if he wants to be pirate king or what, that’s why there’s still theories of Law betraying Luffy. It’s because we don’t know what his initial goal is and Luffy never asked. The initial goal or whatever just got side tracked because of Doffy’s revelation of being a Celestial. That’s gave Law motive to takedown Doffy personally because of Corazon’s whole “D are the enemies of God” thing. It was kind of like he wanted to prove Corazon was right. He even dismantled the Alliance when he decided to beat Doffy, because he’d now changed his objective entirely and didn’t expect Luffy to care about this new objective. But then Luffy did care, for his own reasons, and that’s when Law used that to his advantage, since Luffy is a D as well, so in the end Corazon would still be right since a D is still the one who beat Doffy. That’s why even one of his taunts to Doffy were “Do you see Monkey D Luffy, well I’m a D as well” and Doffy that’s when Doffy started figuring out why Law had suddenly abandoned his plan that’s would’ve actually worked. That’s when Doffy realized the whole thing was now about that Fairy tale about the D clan.
So there’s no inconsistency, Law himself said it when they were on the bridge, he said he would’ve stuck to the plan until he learned Doffy was a Celestial. It’s just that Doffy didn’t know why that mattered to Law so much until later, and we the viewers didn’t as well.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
I mean it's nice to want to see Law as a tactician/strategist who is behind the plan to take down Kaido.
But let me be honest and point it out as it is, Law initial motivation to take down Kaido(not talking about anything Doffy) was just used as a plot device/trigger to spark the whole thing.
Luffy is not a planner by any means nor will he think up of plans that only a personality like Law will so to prevent out of character for him and the straw hats too(the smart ones won't go after Kaido anyway and Zoro fearless as he may be doesn't really see a need). So Law is by no means anything more than an instigator and he served his purpose of setting Luffy against Kaidou.
It's a clever trick but can feel cheap because of the lack of emotional stake and a mistake in characterization especially when your characters make actions based on emotions than freedom.
It's because our heroes are written the way they are: peace lovers, never invoking trouble, somehow "landing" into one and conveniently have to save the day.
So Oda always have to use his books of "new coincidences" to unleash on them instead of them just attacking others straight on. Law is just another one of those that he is able to use not once, but twice(with a lesser almost non-existent emotional stake).
Granted, Oda could easily let Kaidou be involved in Law's backstory but that would be overboard.Nope, we just don’t know what Law’s motivation is until now. He wants Kaidou gone but we don’t know if it has to do with red poneglyphs or what. We just don’t know because Luffy doesn’t care to know. We know that the entire thing with Doffy was motivated by other things that were only introduced way after the Kaidou plan started. I mean Law isn’t presented like Capone, who’s entire motivation is that he’s a shit stirrer and that’s why he went after Big Mom. Law just got sidetracked by the Doffy stuff for personal reasons. That would be equivalent to like if one of the Big Mom children was revealed during the Assassination plan to have killed Capone’s sister or something. Capone would still be just a plain shit stirrer but then there would be a sidetrack of a revenge plot of something. Oda instantly presents Capone with a full known reason for his motivations to beat Big Mom because Luffy asks Jinbei. Luffy never asks Law this and the only flashback of his we’ve seen is about Doffy.
So Oda knows he hasn’t Presented Law’s grand ambitions yet, he puts Law in Marineford intentionally so that Luffy will trust him without asking questions in Punk Hazard. I mean it could all be that Law is also a shit stirrer like Capone or he is planning a double cross or something to do with “D will cause a storm” stuff he keeps yammering, It’s just a mystery in the story, and we’ll just have to wait and see how how it plays out
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
@Daz:
But at Punk Hazard, the framing and storytelling choices explicitly suggested that Law was serious about Kaidou. The plan supported this, and throghout a good portion of Dressrosa, Law was still pushing for the Kaido plot over targeting Doflamingo…until suddenly, the Kaido plot didn't matter, andrevenge against Doflamingo was the only thing that ever mattered.
And then, suddenly, Kaido apparently does matter. Its wonky in the sense that Laws motivation and ultimate goal are in flux; once Doflamingo is beaten, theres no recontextualization or exploration of why he wants to take doen Kaido, still – Law just snaps back to it as a default mode because the plot requires it.
So on the one hand you’re saying Law wants to leave Doflamingo be, due to a rational assessment of the situation, but on the other hand, he’s itching such bloodlust at fighting Doflamingo? This is the disconnect that I’m talking about, and the switch between them is never dramatized. Instead, when Law confronts Doflamingo for the final time he talks of how his lifes goal was be here and pull the trigger that Corazon couldn’t (twice, even), as if he wasn’t pushing for the elaborate Kaido scheme five minutes ago. Doflamingos defeat can’t both be Laws secret endgoal, and some spur-of-the-moment act of passion.
But its still building off the exact masterplan Law presented at Punk Hazard, and Law is still fussing over Luffy, and trying to keep him in line. Theres no dramatization of Law feeling indebted to Luffy or being a mardedly changed man, It’s the same dynamic as before, with Dressrosa as some weird blip inbetween arcs where Law accomplishing his actual, lifelong objective that had nothing to do with Kaido.
Simply put, the manga has never established why Law still gives a shit about this whole Kaido plot.--- Update From New Post Merge ---
Again, I think the part issue here is that the Law/Doflamingo dynamic was being written into the story very late. Consider this:
Law visits Doflamingos auction house at Sabaody. Disco reports this to Doflamingo. And there is absolutely zero indication that Law or Doflamingo have any sort of connection. No reaction from Doflamingo at hearing Law was there, no disapproving scowl from Law at the auction house (well, he had another personality back then, to be fair). And it’s the same deal with the war. Law- who has what Doflamingo desires more than anything in the whole world- shows up at Marineford. Again, there is no indication that the characters know each other. Doflamingo just laughs at Luffys escape – not that Law helps him.Why is everyone forgetting that Scene in Greenbit? It was like the most hype scenes of the start of the arc… I mean Law was fighting Fujitora and Doffy and Metoers were falling and Goddamn... Anyway, It was shown why Law dropped the Kaidou plan... that’s when Doffy told him he was a Celestial... It was Fuckin Hype AF, how do people not remember this?
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I don't remember Law saying he wanted to personally kill Doflamingo, I just remember him saying his plan was for Kaido to do it and the reason he originally lied about going after Kaido was just to trick Luffy into an alliance (probably taking a Shichibukai down wouldn't look as interesting as an Emperor).
I don't see an inconsistency there, but I agree Law doesn't really have any personal reason to be on the alliance at this point to take down Kaido as he never cared about Kaido at all. I suppose he is only there because the alliance he made with Luffy was meant to go there, so even if he didn't intend to at first now he is stuck to it as long as Luffy is still willing to go. Seems like a weak reason to risk the life of his whole crew (just to honor an accord), but I suppose they are all in agreement with this.
As for no hint of Law/Doflamingo connection in Sabaody, probably Oda hadn't come up with that. He said the supernova didn't even exist in his notebooks until right before their introduction, so, yeah…
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Did people forget why Law vs Doflamingo is one of the best relationships in the whole story? Doflamingo was a manipulative evil bastard that thrived on Destruction but he wasn’t a psychopath. He was sociopath. He was presented with a clear reason to have developed into a person with zero regard for human life. It was because he thought he deserved to be on top of everyone. His entire beef with the Celestial dragons was simply because they put him on a level below themselves by casting him out so he climbed his way up to the point that he held the world they themselves ruled over by the balls. He risked everything for that mission. He even teamed up with dangerous colorless guys like Kaidou for it even though he knew one mistake meant death. He just can’t stand someone being on top of him. But then again, he no longer has actual status as a Celestial to match his Ego, so Oda wrote him the most suitable power you can imagine for such a guy. The ability to control others bodies. Plus adding on his charisma and just like that Doffy was fully written as the best villain of this series. He was given an ability that directly lets him leave out his delusional power fantasies, to the point that he fully believes them. He’s also completely charismatic and smart and can also psychologically manipulate all those around him as well. The man in his mind is basically on top of the world completely justifying his acts by considering himself to have been of Noble birth and even without the title itself, he makes sure to manipulate everything and everyone around to create the illusion that he doesn’t need the title even. He’s the perfect Heavenly Demon.
But then comes a Caveat, there’s this little fairy tale that itself was told to him by the Celestial dragons he pretends to be. That even Gods have enemies. The D clan. But it’s never been more than a fairy tale until Law tells him that he himself is a D. At that point when his entire organization is crumbling, he is told, that the situation isn’t even random chance, that maybe a power higher than the Celestial dragons is what’s doing it. And freaks the fuck out. In his last moments against Luffy. He sees Luffy prepare to use Gear Fourth, and lets him do it. He had already just been completely obliterated by Gear Fourth and he sees Luffy performing it again right in front of him when he can clearly stop it. But he doesn’t. More than anything at that point, he wants to control it. Luffy of the D clan and his Gear Fourth aren’t supposed to be run away, they must be controlled just like everything else in his life. Because he has built a life where no one should be above him, so he can’t even think clearly enough to stop Luffy, he has to control him. And in fact his last words were, “The things I hate most, is people being above me.
Law on the other hand is just trying to honor Corazon and see if Corazon’s death meant anything. He has been living his life just like Corazon had told him, but when he finds out Doffy is a Celestial, he decides to test whether he was worth Corazon sacrificing himself. He wants to test out of this “D” thing meant anything, and wouldn’t you know it, the person he hated the most just turned out to be a Celestial dragon. Of course later on, he learns that Corazon did everything out of Love and the “D” stuff was just what started it. Right now, it’s not clear whether Law still cares about the “D” stuff upon learning this or not, but as for the Dressrosa arc, he was doing everything to see if he was worth Corazon dying for and a fellow D, Luffy, did in fact defeat the Celestial Dragon, Doflamingo. But Of course it’s not within Law’s character to actually be superstitious and all of that happened was more about him trying to honor Corazon’s memory the best he knew how to then. The same goes for Doflamingo, he wasn’t actually a superstitious person, it was Law’s faith that Luffy from the D clan, would defeat him that drove him over the edge into wanting to subjugate Luffy and his D name no matter what.
Hmm, this is off topic, so to bring it back the topic. Law has other plans going on for Wano and Kaidou and The Doflamingo and Dressrosa incident was just a neat little exploration of Law’s character. Oda did fantastically on that front even adding stuff like Doffy’s plan to attack Dressrosa to the Information Corazon gave Law to pass to Sengoku. Just stuff to give Law’s character a believable reason to get sidetracked so hard when he was already planning to take out a Yonkou. This is sorta what he wanted to do with Sanji getting sidetracked with Big Mom and the Vinsmokes, and it didn’t work as well to me, but you can’t really say Sanji didn’t initially want to continue the fight with Kaidou just because of something that just suddenly came up in the story. It’s just that We know Sanji’s reasons for wanting to fight Kaidou are that Luffy wants to and him leaving are the Vinsmokes. Whereas we don’t know Law’s reasons for wanting to fight Kaidou but we do know why he sidetracked was because he learned Doffy was a Celestial dragon.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
@.access:
I don't remember Law saying he wanted to personally kill Doflamingo, I just remember him saying his plan was for Kaido to do it and the reason he originally lied about going after Kaido was just to trick Luffy into an alliance (probably taking a Shichibukai down wouldn't look as interesting as an Emperor).
I don't see an inconsistency there, but I agree Law doesn't really have any personal reason to be on the alliance at this point to take down Kaido as he never cared about Kaido at all. I suppose he is only there because the alliance he made with Luffy was meant to go there, so even if he didn't intend to at first now he is stuck to it as long as Luffy is still willing to go. Seems like a weak reason to risk the life of his whole crew (just to honor an accord), but I suppose they are all in agreement with this.
As for no hint of Law/Doflamingo connection in Sabaody, probably Oda hadn't come up with that. He said the supernova didn't even exist in his notebooks until right before their introduction, so, yeah…
Where are you getting that Law was using The Kaidou plan to trick Luffy? Law’s pirate group was always the Heart pirates and his pirate flag always resembled the Doffy flag even in Sabaody. And you don’t think there was a connection?
But seriously, they explained why Law went off plan was because he learned Doffy was a Celestial. Where do you get that He ws tricking Luffy and this whole thing was about him personally wanting to kill Doffy? There’s literally a scene where Doffy asks Law why he suddenly abandoned his plan that had such a good chance of working and Law literally says “Before today I didn’t know you were a Celestial”. Just because we don’t know what his initial motivations are for targeting Kaidou, it doesn’t mean they aren’t there. This is considered a mystery in the story that’s all. Oda even wrote up a reason why we don’t know it. Because Luffy’s never asked.
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Law doesn't really have much choice but to fight Kaido after Doflamingo got taken down, given that Kaido will be targeting him and Luffy. But with that being said, even though he's no longer the driving force of the plot, I do hope he develops a personal connection to Wano in some way.
Where are you getting that Law was using The Kaidou plan to trick Luffy? Law’s pirate group was always the Heart pirates and his pirate flag always resembled the Doffy flag even in Sabaody. And you don’t think there was a connection?
But seriously, they explained why Law went off plan was because he learned Doffy was a Celestial. Where do you get that He ws tricking Luffy and this whole thing was about him personally wanting to kill Doffy? There’s literally a scene where Doffy asks Law why he suddenly abandoned his plan that had such a good chance of working and Law literally says “Before today I didn’t know you were a Celestial”. Just because we don’t know what his initial motivations are for targeting Kaidou, it doesn’t mean they aren’t there. This is considered a mystery in the story that’s all. Oda even wrote up a reason why we don’t know it. Because Luffy’s never asked.
When did he say that? On the last page of Chapter 824 he laid out that his main objective was the SMILE Factory's destruction, with the intention of getting Doflamingo killed in order to avenge Corazon.
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@Kaido:
Law doesn't really have much choice but to fight Kaido after Doflamingo got taken down, given that Kaido will be targeting him and Luffy. But with that being said, even though he's no longer the driving force of the plot, I do hope he develops a personal connection to Wano in some way.
When did he say that? On the last page of Chapter 824 he laid out that his main objective was the SMILE Factory's destruction, with the intention of getting Doflamingo killed in order to avenge Corazon.
Did Bege need a personal reason to kill Big Mom? None of the Supernovas are from the New world and they all entered the it for their own reasons. I don’t think any of them actually have or need personal reasons to attack Yonkou. Luffy was given personal reasons because he’s the main character and that makes for a better story but from Punk Hazard we know he wanted to take them down before any of the Wano or Sanji kidnapping stuff even became a thing. Bege never had a personal reason to take out Momma, it was just his character. He never even showed signs of doing it because of Chiffon, and yet Oda could’ve easily written that in. The entire thing was just written as Bege was more or less a sociopath who wants to see the world burn. And he is a fantastic character in the arc regardless.
I guess Law being given some personal stakes in this would work but I think it would be detrimental to the his overall Goal or character. It’s an actual mystery why he chose to even get involved in Marineford and upto know certain actions he’s taken are still mysterious. So if it gets written that he will always need personal stakes to get into the plot, then that’s all there will be to him. There will no longer be a need to question his overall motives and goal because it will just be his thing to do things for personal reasons. Like imagine it yourself, if Law is given some very personal stakes in Wano, will you care about his motives after Wano? He’ll just be that guy that had this or that beef in each of those arcs he was in. But if He actually does have grand ambitions outside of Wano and we just don’t know them, then that’s something to look forward to. Right?
Anyway Chapter 824 is the beginning of their confrontation… I never read Dressrosa in manga, I just watched it in Anime but somewhere at the end of the fight Doffy asks why Law has so much confidence in the Strawhats, and he says that line that Before that Day he never knew Doflamingo was Celestial dragon and evem says that his Alliance with the Strawhats had ended because he was no longer gen following the plan.
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Law's deal with doflamingo was Corazon's goal. Law took that goal for himself because of what corazon did for him. It's just like BM took the goal of mother carmel to make a country will al lraces thing. Her real dream is to have a giant family to look i nthe eyes at the table.
Law has yet to reveal his own dream, goal, And I bet it's releated to what WG did to his country, his original flashback.
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@uniaka:
Law has yet to reveal his own dream, goal
He confirmed he wants to find One Piece.
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Law set up the plan to luffy to bait him with the idea of taking down kaido so they could ruin his business and take him out later. Though it would hurt kaido's business by proxy law wanted kaido to kill doffy and tried to double cross him by taking out the factory and reneging on the plan to swap caesar.
Once the plan failed law bought time for the straw hats on the sunny to escape, and around the time sanji confrontts law about him being swept up into the doflamingo part of this problem. After the shooting at the colliseum law tells luffy this is just about the factory but luffy tells him " to look at the bigger picture of dressrosa" and this is after the birdcage so they need to beat doffy to escape by this time anyways.
Doflamingo manipulated law psychologically a lot during dressrosa. Law wanted him dead but wanted to be smart about it but doffy pushed his buttons enough where law wanted to kill him himself.
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He confirmed he wants to find One Piece.
It makes sense, if he wants to do something to WG, finding OP is the best way to do it.
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i am not sure if anyone notice this, but its kinda bugs me a little
[
i](https://imgbb.com/) think the design off a bit
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Fight with Katakuri was more about CoO and speed than pure power. Bound Man was shown overpowering Katakuri when he was not using CoO properly.
Bad example. Go figure.
…but he didn't beat him with Bound Man.
The fight between these two top tier guys was settled based on haki and speed, not on sheer size and strength and who got more jacked up.
It's a perfect example.
Go figure...again?
Also Vergo seemed more formidable than any other of Doffys executives.. long story short.
So that may be the case with Jack as well
He's been getting a lot of panel time put into him after all
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…but he didn't beat him with Bound Man.
The fight between these two top tier guys was settled based on haki and speed, not on sheer size and strength and who got more jacked up.
It's a perfect example.
Go figure...again?
So that may be the case with Jack as well
He's been getting a lot of panel time put into him after all
The Katakuri fight isn’t a pure indicator of what ALL top tier fights will be like. It was just a specific situation. Katakuri has no attacks with enough power to beat Luffy easily and Luffy had way more destructive capabilities but He couldn’t touch Katakuri… Its just one scenario... Jack is already show to be slow so whoever will end up fighting Jack won’t need very high speed, they’ll need high Destructive capability... and that will be it’s own top tier fight scenario... li
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The Katakuri fight isn’t a pure indicator of what ALL top tier fights will be like. It was just a specific situation. Katakuri has no attacks with enough power to beat Luffy easily and Luffy had way more destructive capabilities but He couldn’t touch Katakuri… Its just one scenario... Jack is already show to be slow so whoever will end up fighting Jack won’t need very high speed, they’ll need high Destructive capability... and that will be it’s own top tier fight scenario... li
It still shows that you don't need to be super jacked/huge to be a top tier character.
The original point of this argument was that in One Piece size and power are not strictly related.