Everything after Cell was on a downhill spiral anyway quality wise, and it hasn't changed.
Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly
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GT was very cheesy at times, it honestly had many an episode that felt like I was watching a Saturday AM cartoon from DIC. SS4 was the only thing I liked in that entire series, and Super has ultra instinct which is better in terms of how the power is more than just a power level boost.
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Are we debating now which is worse? Pest or cholera?
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Are we debating now which is worse? Pest or cholera?
I burnt myself with coffee. Thank you…
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Everything after Cell was on a downhill spiral anyway quality wise, and it hasn't changed.
Aside from the Boo stuff being superior to the Cell stuff you mean.
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In Z 17 was a dick who mocked everyone he beat the crap out of. And I loved it. I think he's more boring in Super.
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Everything after Cell was on a downhill spiral anyway quality wise, and it hasn't changed.
But the Buu arc was way better than the Cell arc. There was actual creative energy and imagination and world building and stakes going on.
Cell saga was just a string of dull antagonists and taking itself too seriously.
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No way. Androids Saga > Buu Saga
Androids Saga delivered on Z's initial story arc of Gohan taking Goku's mantle, had (at one time) two villain camps (which made things more interesting), had proper roles for most of the heroes at one point, and had a villain group that called back to Goku's past in a better way than GT or Super ever accomplished.
People talk about the stoic androids and Cell being boring, but aside from the fun-loving fat version of Buu, I don't know how a villain could BE more dull (next to Jiren). The Buu saga finally features Piccolo just giving up, introduces Gotenks to do nothing, and gives Gohan another power up only to have him accomplish very little.
Not to say that the Buu saga sucks - it has Vegeta's redemption more cemented and features some moments of creativity, but to me it is certainly the weakest Z saga.I go: Namek, Androids, Saiyans, Buu
Including Dragon Ball:
Namek
Red Ribbon Army
Androids
Roshi Training/First Tournament
Saiyans
Second Tournament
Pilaf
Piccolo
Buu -
I'm on the Cell camp, too. Initial Buu was better, but then stuff like Fusion, Trunks and Goten learning all those tough techniques (the SSJ stuff was at the start already, but then Fusion and SSJ3 are even more plot convinience), SSJ3, Ultimate Gohan and the ending of the story happened. All concepts with the most minimal foreshadowing and spurred by the most jarring plot convinience.
The treatment of the sidecast was at it's worst here, even if it was more tonally close to early Dragon Ball than anything starting the Saiyan arc.
Still totally think DB lost all it's stakes when we learned reviving people was possible. Even if stakes come in another form, like the one element with actual stakes in the Buu arc, Fusion, it still could be undone by Dragon Balls if nothing else. If not Earth's, then Namek's. I like that Super doesn't play pretend.
Cell has a mess of a timetravel plot which is equally out of nowhere, but the powerups and character writing make more sense.
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The Buu arc was full of weird emotional whiplash moments where it couldn't decide if it was going to be serious or gag-oriented. Like one minute Buu kills Chichi in a pretty brutal manner and then a bit later he's chilling out with a copy of Shonen Jump and an ice cream float for a gag.
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Yes. This is also what I've always felt. Commit to what you're trying to be. Everything from the Saiyan to the Cell arc was setting out to be an exciting action rollercoaster.
The important distinction compared to other series to me is that it never came across as tryhard despite trying to be more serious. I felt it always had the sense of just wanting to be an exciting story to follow as always, rather than trying to be deep.
Really early Dragon Ball was a gag manga and inbetween Pilaf and Piccolo Jr was a good middle ground, mixing early DB gags and Cell seriousness is whiplashy.
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Here's a potentially fun topic: If you could change anything about the story of Dragonball. what would it be?
More generally speaking, I'd like to see a version where Bulma had more of an action role. I wouldn't want her to be a martial artist, but maybe a Usopp/Nami type of fighter, who uses technology, capsules, and lasers. I wouldn't want her to be strong - but like maybe at least Yamcha levels of good. I don't expect many to agree with me on that point.
Here's one I know I'll have support for. Nerf the Dragonballs in some way/stop adding ways to infinitely revive characters from the dead. Maybe the once per character thing would be fine. I wouldn't want Krillin to not get to be with 18, so maybe retcon his first death out of Dragonball. I think Roshi should have stayed dead after Piccolo kills him.
I'd want Tien, Yamcha, and Krillin to stay fight relevant - if not through raw power, then through creative techniques. Chiaotzu has to stay dead after Nappa, but when Tien and Yamcha come back from King Kai's they should have definitely learned some cool things.
I'd change a lot about the Buu saga. Goku can have his 24 hours back, but thats it. No coming back and finishing Buu. If Buu still went to the afterlife, they can have a fight - but no Goku finishing him off. It has to be Gohan. Vegeta still dies, and should still get some emotional resolution with Goku in the afterlife, but probably no Vegito. Piccolo also gets fights in this version. He fights Supreme Kai and Dabura. Gotenks should still happen. Probably less forms for Buu this time. I think the Buu finisher should maybe be Gohan doing the Spirit Bomb, either by learning how to do it himself or by letting Goku gather the energy (with Mr. Satan's help still) and then Gohan throws it. OR Gohan could learn the Evil Containment Wave from Roshi in the afterlife. WHOA. Good idea. I should be Akira Toriyama.
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Make Chichi relevant instead of a bitchy housewife.
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Make Chichi relevant instead of a bitchy housewife.
Seconded. I don't mind her being a "tiger mom", but they made her so un-likable in Z. it's borderline offensive, or outright.
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Hmm…
-Keep Chichi a fighter and develop her relationship with Goku more. Keeping her a part of the cast after her introduction would've easily given that opportunity.
-Remove the power level system, instead introducing specific strengths to each character.
-Make SSJ a terrifying power that is barely controllable even after Goku first uses it. Concept-wise something of a mix between the SSJ4 and UI ideas to keep it special.
-Streamline Gohan's arc.
-Keep Goku Black the only antagonist of the FT arc by making him get rid of Zamasu somehow (maybe even by him having adapted the Hakai technique to actually force Beerus to do something). Final form should be a god Great Ape or the like.
-Play up the perfection part and "has cells of all fighters" part of Perfect Cell to give him a personality. -
Hmm…
-Remove the power level system, instead introducing specific strengths to each character.
My favorite one of yours. Yes.
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"Vegeta used up all his power in his self-destruction attack and now he can barely stand!"
next episode preview shows Vegeta back in Kawaii Blue
¯_(ツ)_/¯
(since we're on the GT comparison stuff, this reminds me of that time SSJ4 Goku blew himself up against Super #17, failed entirely and then beat him immediately after in his base form)
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The Android and Cell saga are the better arc story wise, and actually would have been a great way to end the series as Goku had handed the torch to his sun.
The Buu saga has an interesting start, but peters out really fucking fast. Honestly it really felt like Toriyama was on cruise control for most of it.
I've always thought if you took the concept of the Shadow Dragon arc from GT and gave it the Buu villians, you'd have a real fucking good final arc.
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The Android and Cell saga are the better arc story wise, and actually would have been a great way to end the series as Goku had handed the torch to his sun.
The Buu saga has an interesting start, but peters out really fucking fast. Honestly it really felt like Toriyama was on cruise control for most of it.
I've always thought if you took the concept of the Shadow Dragon arc from GT and gave it the Buu villians, you'd have a real fucking good final arc.
I don't really disagree! The Shadow Dragon Concept and the Buu designs are all pretty good.
Anyone seen the new Super? I'm at work and can't find any spoilers. I just wanna know what happens to Frieza tbh
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All I've heard is
! Vegeta eliminates Toppo with a Nakama Punch and Jiren shows a slight bit of human emotion in that he actually smiles. And denigrates his teammate.
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I don't really disagree! The Shadow Dragon Concept and the Buu designs are all pretty good.
Anyone seen the new Super? I'm at work and can't find any spoilers. I just wanna know what happens to Frieza tbh
[hide]He confronted Toppo in his base form (again), heckled him and got knocked out (again). Totally legit character moment from someone who's been slinking around in the background for the entire tournament![/hide]
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Also this episode had #17 think he beat a God of Destruction level opponent by burying him under a pile of rocks.
This might be the worst episode since that time Captain Ginyu solo'd everyone.
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Episode 126!
I really liked the point of this fight. Despite fighting for survival, Vegeta has made the decision to remain true to his principles and promises, while Toppo threw his away/lost them to survive, which is why he lost. It really is sad and interesting - Toppo's little arc is one of the most interesting out of the ToP. I wonder if that'll play a role thematically in the final fight?
Jiren actually showed emotion! Again, kind of a jerk towards his comerades. This is also everything I wanted out of Vegeta from the tournament - he and 17 can be knocked out now. Best episode in a while.
…and yes, there are inconsistencies, like Toppo's destruction shield not working (though the sense I get is that Toppo didn't really have his composure anymore, so it might've no longer worked because of that) and Freeza staying down probably would've been better, but I really liked the point behind the whole episode. It helps that it once again didn't look like complete butt.
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Episode 126!
I really liked the point of this fight. Despite fighting for survival, Vegeta has made the decision to remain true to his principles and promises, while Toppo threw his away/lost them to survive, which is why he lost. It really is sad and interesting - Toppo's little arc is one of the most interesting out of the ToP. I wonder if that'll play a role thematically in the final fight?
Jiren actually showed emotion! Again, kind of a jerk towards his comerades. This is also everything I wanted out of Vegeta from the tournament - he and 17 can be knocked out now. Best episode in a while.
…and yes, there are inconsistencies, like Toppo's destruction shield not working (though the sense I get is that Toppo didn't really have his composure anymore, so it might've no longer worked because of that) and Freeza staying down probably would've been better, but I really liked the point behind the whole episode. It helps that it once again didn't look like complete butt.
No inconsistency with the destruction shield, It was shown that Vegeta was outputting so much god ki that he was able to punch through Toppos hakai ball, so when Vegeta did the final atonement they showed it blow away Toppos destruction shroud before eliminating him.
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Right. His blast was strong enough to withstand the Hakai, so why not the shield with his punches? Freeza could block it with Golden Freeza, so Vegeta doing it makes sense.
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Yeah pretty sure they're making it so that hakai can be overcame if the enemy is around the power of, or more powerful than the GoD same way conquerors haki can only effect enemies vastly weaker than the user. Since Frieza is still God tier(strong enough to handle some of Sidras power) the hakai just depowered him rather than erased him.
Without these limitations, GoD would be able to one shot anyone with their destruction energy. -
Here's a potentially fun topic: If you could change anything about the story of Dragonball. what would it be?
More generally speaking, I'd like to see a version where Bulma had more of an action role. I wouldn't want her to be a martial artist, but maybe a Usopp/Nami type of fighter, who uses technology, capsules, and lasers. I wouldn't want her to be strong - but like maybe at least Yamcha levels of good. I don't expect many to agree with me on that point.
Here's one I know I'll have support for. Nerf the Dragonballs in some way/stop adding ways to infinitely revive characters from the dead. Maybe the once per character thing would be fine. I wouldn't want Krillin to not get to be with 18, so maybe retcon his first death out of Dragonball. I think Roshi should have stayed dead after Piccolo kills him.
I'd want Tien, Yamcha, and Krillin to stay fight relevant - if not through raw power, then through creative techniques. Chiaotzu has to stay dead after Nappa, but when Tien and Yamcha come back from King Kai's they should have definitely learned some cool things.
I'd change a lot about the Buu saga. Goku can have his 24 hours back, but thats it. No coming back and finishing Buu. If Buu still went to the afterlife, they can have a fight - but no Goku finishing him off. It has to be Gohan. Vegeta still dies, and should still get some emotional resolution with Goku in the afterlife, but probably no Vegito. Piccolo also gets fights in this version. He fights Supreme Kai and Dabura. Gotenks should still happen. Probably less forms for Buu this time. I think the Buu finisher should maybe be Gohan doing the Spirit Bomb, either by learning how to do it himself or by letting Goku gather the energy (with Mr. Satan's help still) and then Gohan throws it. OR Gohan could learn the Evil Containment Wave from Roshi in the afterlife. WHOA. Good idea. I should be Akira Toriyama.
Piccolo, Tien, Yamcha, and Chaotzu all learn Kaioken while training in otherworld.
Piccolo travels to Hell to fuse with his father, King Piccolo, truly becoming the Nameless Namek once again. -
only changes I'd make are more broad and sweeping than some of the specific ones people have here
just make Ox King and Chichi proper main characters and make later stuff less of a saiyan festmaybe actually make Gohan a proper character with an arc instead of crybaby jesus but that's probably too much
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I am legitimately shocked that 17 made it out of this episode and is still in this. He'll obviously be bowing out next week, but that's fine. He's had a really good run in the tournament.
Mixed feelings on the Toppo fight aside, it looks like Universe 7 winning via Frieza sackery can still happen!
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"Vegeta used up all his power in his self-destruction attack and now he can barely stand!"
next episode preview shows Vegeta back in Kawaii Blue
"I never thought it would come down to Jiren alone."
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Here's a potentially fun topic: If you could change anything about the story of Dragonball. what would it be?
- No power levels at all; scouters merely let you easily find strong people.
- Super Saiyan just heals damage and restores ki.
- Other characters remain relevant much longer as a result.
- Cell doesn't transform but keeps his first form.
- Shin isn't a useless moron early in the Buu Saga.
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Oof looks like this ep is pretty divisive.
There's a lot of love, but also scathing hate. Still really like the perspective clash and how Toppo changed gradually across the tournament. I see whiplash being yelled, but the whole thing with Toppo throwing away his justice has been built up pretty gradually. Totally gonna be a underrated part of the arc, I think.
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Vegeta used all hus energy, oh no!
next episode full power SJJ Blue.
Never change, lol.
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Wait, Vegeta still has energy next ep? Toeiiiiiiiiii whyyyyyyyy
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I hope it's because 17 or Freeza because that"s the biggest thing that bothered me about the episode. The biggest flaw of the arc to me has been the dumb "recovers as he fights" idea.
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Wait, Vegeta still has energy next ep? Toeiiiiiiiiii whyyyyyyyy
Not just energy, full power SSJ Blue energy.
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Even at the end of Naruto, when he had divine creatures made of Chakra inside of him, he still had to take a few breaks in the war to replenish that Chakra, with them specifically pointing out that he is able to gather it quickly based on the combination of two of his modes. So even while Kishimoto seemed to be throwing darts at a board with the names of characters to decide the final villain, he at least decided to rationalize a way for him to create dumb drama by leaving Naruto depowered for a chapter or two at points in the final war.
It wouldn't bother me with Goku and Vegeta consistently going in-and-out of forms, if they hadn't specifically put emphasis early on in the tournament of them using up their power, and explicitly saying that they were running on fumes.
Goku used all of his power against Jiren the first time, then pulled Ultra Instinct out of the plot convenience void this tournament takes place in. Used that up, then got some spare energy from Freeza. Even if we assume that he took a short amount of time offscreen to simply gather Ki, he pretty much goes straight into battle, fights Kale and Caulifa using SSB again. And has pretty much used SSB like 5 more times since then, with Kaioken mixed in.
I would have actually given them credit if they used Super Saiyan God to explain it. They already showed early in the series that Super Saiyan God can heal wounds. They could have gone further and just have let him use that form at rest to regain some of his energy faster.
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That's what bothers me the most. They have an explanation right under their noses because Goku straight-up used SSG. Hell, I'd be okay with just a mention in these last few episodes.
The short tournament time, the fluctuating tension between episodes and the anti-climatic ringouts are all problems, but this has an explanation RIGHT THERE. The other three you can look past considering the structure of the story.
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What??? Even throwing rocks at him won't damage this guy??? HOW STRONG IS TOPPO??????
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Seriously, when you see all the characters actually believed rocks could damage Toppo, you could tell this would not be the most intelligently written episode. The fight was also awful, with the whole "there must be a weak point in his power" from one episode ago actually being replaced with " you just need to be stronger than him, like always"... plus, the fact Vegeta went from being bitch slapped to completely overpowering in like 3 minutes of episode.
At least it seems Freeza learned he better stay hidden if he wants to survive this. But this makes me question what was even the point in him revealing himself this episode.
- "17! Thank god he is alive" - yeah, because we definitely didn't want Jiren to be disqualified, right? It's not like 17 could be resurrected anytime later...
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It's odd out of context, but 17 is ultimately trying to stall for time, not beat Toppo.
Edit: It just occured to me that it's entirely possible for Goku, Vegeta and 17 to all be eliminated next episode already. All of them have actually had their moments. Freeza can do his sneak attack in the shambled stadium, too.
What a way to end it that way.
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@.access:
What??? Even throwing rocks at him won't damage this guy??? HOW STRONG IS TOPPO??????
I laughed for like half a minute when the rock thing happened.
The halfwit who wrote the bug episode was the writer for this episode, right? If that's the case, he should never write anything ever again. -
Here's a potentially fun topic: If you could change anything about the story of Dragonball. what would it be?
Just passing through, but this seemed neat. I'm a casual DBZ fan who adores it but I'll give it a go.
– Gohan and Cell fist-to-fist, brutally fight AFTER Cell reaches SSJ2 form after he returns from space. The line from Gohan that went something like, "I can't wait to kill you with these hands!" was kinda disappointing to me when Vegeta interrupted it, even though Vegeta's moment was kinda cool. Loved the Kamehameha battle, would of course keep it, but add that fierce, razor-close battle between Gohan and Cell that we were robbed of. I'd love to see bloodthirsty, revenge-driven Super Saiyan 2 Gohan versus psychotically smug-about-his-true-perfection Cell.
-- SSJ3 way more useful. Much more emphasis on it being explosively energy-based, with a decent upgrade to strength. DEFINITELY have it do decent damage to Majin Buu when he fights Babidi.
-- I like Vegito a lot, but I didn't want it to be the way it all ended. Have Vegito somehow fight Super Buu (Gotenks absorbed), but don't have him absorbed for the upcoming Gohan fight. Then Vegito, although he fought very valiantly, eventually gets defeated by Super Buu's time/space-ripping power. Ultimate Gohan THEN comes in, and somehow or other Kid Buu appears, and Gohan fights and defeats Kid Buu on the Kai's planet. The problem with this is I really like Vegeta's moments on the Kai's planet, sooo... hmm.
-- After Hercule's 47th time of calling the fight a fancy trick in the Cell saga, a stray rock from Goku powering up whacks him in the head and kills him. J/k.
-- Most of the side characters stay semi-relevant and competitive, but I would like there to be ONE loser among them. I think I kinda get what Toriyama was going for there, not everyone is born with innate talent and are winners (not that talent is the only thing that makes a winner, far from it).
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Super goes on hiatus. A new movie comes out at the end of 2018. In 2019 this movie gets cheaply redone as a recap in the Super anime comeback.
I wouldn't even be surprised.:ninja:
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Here's a potentially fun topic: If you could change anything about the story of Dragonball. what would it be?
Hmmmm
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Would remove Yamcha's weakness to girls along with not reducing him to cannon fodder after introducing Krillen.
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Eventhough I liked the arc mostly as is would try to have the Red Ribbon Army arc utilize the supporting cast better and also not have Colonel Silver's fate be left as ambigious.
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Would most definitely find a less shitty way to have Goku job to Tienshinhan in the 22nd Budokai (or simply just have him win it).
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Would keep Yajirobe's characterization mostly the same but get rid of his "I don't want to die bullshit".
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Would basically erase Chiaotzu from existence.
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Not have Lunch basically disappear from the series just cause.
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Figure out a way to may Namu and Pikkuhan regular characters.
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Better delve into the circumstances of how 17 and 18 became Cyborgs.
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Have Goku outright defeat Frieza instead of having him suddenly decide he's a pacifist for no reason.
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Keep Krillin bald.
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Introduce some of the movie villians like Cooler into the series.
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Mention the gods of destruction earlier and some of the stuff that relates to them earlier.
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Have Satan reveal that he in fact wasn't the one that beat Cell.
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Have Frost not be a villain with good publicity.
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Have Goku and Bulma hook up instead.
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And not have the series end with a flash forward.
The Buu arc was full of weird emotional whiplash moments where it couldn't decide if it was going to be serious or gag-oriented. Like one minute Buu kills Chichi in a pretty brutal manner and then a bit later he's chilling out with a copy of Shonen Jump and an ice cream float for a gag.
Didn't the anime have an equally awkward scene of Cell advertising the Cell games on TV….many episodes after him going around absorbing people off screen and earlier than that Vegeta rocking a pink bowling shirt to what was supposed to be a ginormous battle to defend the earth.....and even earlier than that Goku comically taking a bite out of Frieza's (regrown) tail in the middle of their slugfest and him selling it.like Goku threw it in a pan of burning oil.
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@.access:
What??? Even throwing rocks at him won't damage this guy??? HOW STRONG IS TOPPO??????
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Seriously, when you see all the characters actually believed rocks could damage Toppo, you could tell this would not be the most intelligently written episode. The fight was also awful, with the whole "there must be a weak point in his power" from one episode ago actually being replaced with " you just need to be stronger than him, like always"... plus, the fact Vegeta went from being bitch slapped to completely overpowering in like 3 minutes of episode.
At least it seems Freeza learned he better stay hidden if he wants to survive this. But this makes me question what was even the point in him revealing himself this episode.
- "17! Thank god he is alive" - yeah, because we definitely didn't want Jiren to be disqualified, right? It's not like 17 could be resurrected anytime later...
I kept laughing at that too. Especially since we saw him casually disolving rocks when chasing 17 and Frieza beforehand.
Well Vegeta got his praise from Jiren now the real boss fight starts.
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Ironically Bleach handled the "can't touch the enemy because he'll kill you" thing a lot better with the Baraggan fight.
Dragonball Super is officially dumber than Bleach.
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Dragonball Super is officially dumber than Bleach.
robo, I've written like 4 seperate articles on Bleach.
Super may be dumb but it will never get as dumb as espada 1-10, the heart, when were you under the impression, etc.
I did like the Barragan fight tho. -
Super may be dumb but it will never get as dumb as espada 1-10, the heart, when were you under the impression, etc.
I did like the Barragan fight tho.I can't wait for the Grand Priest to reveal that there's a secret strongest 0th universe