Chapter 884: Who

[desa]

@Long:

But ace isnt always fire or he'd burn down the white whale, same with akainu, kuzan freezing literally everything, sabo accidentally burning his hat, tashigi had to try and becone intangible in punk hazard

You're talking about turning into their element not their ability to not take physical harm.

To compare with Luffy again when he gain the fruit he became automatically immune to punches but actually stretching effectively was something he needed to train.

You could say the ace, tashigi and sabo moments were all played for comedy but oda has done worldbuilding through comedic situations plenty of times

Ace(presented as a season pirate) got shot by surprise and avoided damage in a serious scene but in a gag one he got crushed from Smoker being thrown at him. The first one gave him less time to react and yet it was the one he actually suffered no damage from.

Sabo when fighting the marines was immune to damage which was confirmed by Bastille telling everyone to stay back because he is a logia. And it would be weird to argue Sabo just skip training stage since not only did he get the fruit less than a hour earlier but he also mention how he is trying to dodge when he doesn't have to which pretty much mean he isn't activating anything himself.

Enel also avoided damage while sleeping and his whole point was that even if he wasn't doing anything it would be impossible to kill him. Except of course if you want to argue Enel felt the need to bluff against such an insignificant foe and despite the great pride he had shown in his power set until now.

Freely change original physical form sounds pretty definite

I'm sure I have mentioned Caribou choosing to take hits so I know they can choose to stay solid. The question was can you take give a logia damage by taking them off-guard I say no the protection is always on and they have to chose to turn it off. Else logia would not be that scary and they would not be that shocked to be able to get hit in the new world.

If it does need training I don't see anything pointing to that and I doubt we ever met or will ever meet someone who need it. even Sabo didn't need it less than hour later.

[Seafarer33]

@desa:

If it does need training I don't see anything pointing to that and I doubt we ever met or will ever meet someone who need it. even Sabo didn't need it less than hour later.

Couldn't agree more with everything else you said. The one part I see that should require training is what Katakuri (and possibly Akainu) does : the ability to evade damage from haki, seastone etc. by deforming the user's body so that it avoids any contact with the attack. This much should at least require finer control over the changes to one's physical form ; also, mastery of observation haki can and does help.

But I would consider it advanced usage of Logia powers and in all likeliness not every user reaches this level of mastery.

[Kdom]

Brulee is near the fight isn’t she ? So even if Luffy defeat Katakuri, she will be a nuisance when he becomes unable to move

[FelRes]

Has anyone figured out the point of Pound yet?

[Razh]

@SuburbanErrorist:

Luffy even said to Doflamingo that theres no way an that attack from Law did nothing. Doffy was playing it off and Luffy was calling his bullshit

Problem is that Oda had downplayed it. If you're not going to show someone suffering from having their internal organs cut up, why even bother putting it in the story?

Similar thing happened with Kyros. The story wouldn't have been much different if he hadn't cut on of his legs.

[Screwtape]

@desa:

You're talking about turning into their element not their ability to not take physical harm.

To compare with Luffy again when he gain the fruit he became automatically immune to punches but actually stretching effectively was something he needed to train.

Ace(presented as a season pirate) got shot by surprise and avoided damage in a serious scene but in a gag one he got crushed from Smoker being thrown at him. The first one gave him less time to react and yet it was the one he actually suffered no damage from.

Sabo when fighting the marines was immune to damage which was confirmed by Bastille telling everyone to stay back because he is a logia. And it would be weird to argue Sabo just skip training stage since not only did he get the fruit less than a hour earlier but he also mention how he is trying to dodge when he doesn't have to which pretty much mean he isn't activating anything himself.

Enel also avoided damage while sleeping and his whole point was that even if he wasn't doing anything it would be impossible to kill him. Except of course if you want to argue Enel felt the need to bluff against such an insignificant foe and despite the great pride he had shown in his power set until now.

I'm sure I have mentioned Caribou choosing to take hits so I know they can choose to stay solid. The question was can you take give a logia damage by taking them off-guard I say no the protection is always on and they have to chose to turn it off. Else logia would not be that scary and they would not be that shocked to be able to get hit in the new world.

If it does need training I don't see anything pointing to that and I doubt we ever met or will ever meet someone who need it. even Sabo didn't need it less than hour later.

This is all truth. Otherwise, Silvers himself wouldn't have stated that Armament Haki is "the sole method of combating their abilities." Other than exploiting the logia individual weaknesses.

[fuzi11]

@FelRes:

Has anyone figured out the point of Pound yet?

Asking this question regarding carrot since her debut.

At least pound demonstrates that big mom only uses the genes of the fathers, and they aren't seeing their kids afterwards anymore

[Kaido King of the Beasts]

@FelRes:

Has anyone figured out the point of Pound yet?

Pound was the key to discovering Lola was Big Mom's daughter, and thus realizing the power contained in Lola's Vivre Card.

[desa]

@FelRes:

Has anyone figured out the point of Pound yet?

Emotional payoff for Chiffon probably. You need your father daughter relationship of the arc.

[SuburbanErrorist]

@Razh:

Problem is that Oda had downplayed it. If you're not going to show someone suffering from having their internal organs cut up, why even bother putting it in the story?

Similar thing happened with Kyros. The story wouldn't have been much different if he hadn't cut on of his legs.

There were times where Doffy put his hands in front of his stomach to show its affecting him.

[STP_PS]

@FelRes:

Has anyone figured out the point of Pound yet?

Speaking of pound. Over 40 or more husbands to meet and the crew stumbles upon Lola's/Chiffon father. Convenient much? I'd say yes. Now, what has happened with the others? have they been disposed of? is there an anti Big MUm society brewing in the shadows which strives to take down Big Mama? or are all of them as lame as pound:blink:. What did Linlin see in this guy in the first place? there must be a catch, maybe he's filthy rich because frankly I can't see Linlin harrassing this guy for his genes. Which leads me to, how on earth did she manage to have all these kids? I bet she's single and virgin while everyone was adopted:ninja:

[Koliber]

Well, the theories of Tamago being Smoothie's father and Streussen being Perospero's are quite popular from what I see, so it's possible husbands are allowed to serve BMP if deemed useful (but probably are forbidden from acting parent-like). And SH crew were running on convenience for years, I personally think that SHP are having way too much luck in thir lives, but it's unlikely Oda's going to change it.

[Sereques]

I wish BM can be an ally and create a "zeus" for Nami. That will be a great power up for Nami.

[Koliber]

@Sereques:

I wish BM can be an ally and create a "zeus" for Nami. That will be a great power up for Nami.

Apparently, Nami still has one thing from Weatheria not utilized in her last Clima Tact, so I don't thin it's actually needed. And having Yonkou as an ally would feel too safe, it'd be better if they left on neutral terms.

[sgamer82]

@FelRes:

Has anyone figured out the point of Pound yet?

Given his appearance this chapter I think we'll be finding out soon enough.

[MadieV]

@FelRes:

Has anyone figured out the point of Pound yet?

He's in Cocoa island preparing for a romantic reunion with his babe Big Mom.

[Chrior]

@Koliber:

Well, the theories of Tamago being Smoothie's father and Streussen being Perospero's are quite popular from what I see, so it's possible husbands are allowed to serve BMP if deemed useful (but probably are forbidden from acting parent-like). And SH crew were running on convenience for years, I personally think that SHP are having way too much luck in thir lives, but it's unlikely Oda's going to change it.

To be fair, out of all the possible conveniences they've had in their journey, meeting Pound has to be the most useless one, honestly. And Big Mom's Vivre Card turned out to be not as useful as initially thought. Yeah, Nami could control homies and that helped them escape the Woods, but does anyone think they would be unable to destroy a bunch of trees and get on with it? Sooner or later, they would have worked around it anyway. The most godly help they've had so far is the one they kind of planted themselves, the Tamate Box.

[Koliber]

@Chrior:

To be fair, out of all the possible conveniences they've had in their journey, meeting Pound has to be the most useless one, honestly. And Big Mom's Vivre Card turned out to be not as useful as initially thought. Yeah, Nami could control homies and that helped them escape the Woods, but does anyone think they would be unable to destroy a bunch of trees and get on with it? Sooner or later, they would have worked around it anyway. The most godly help they've had so far is the one they kind of planted themselves, the Tamate Box.

All the benefit from meeting Pound haven't happened yet. And I was talking more in general, Tamate Box being the biggest offender this arc.

[K. Kira XXIII]

Pound is going to give the cake to Big Mom and rekindle their love.

[Chrior]

I don't see much of a benefit to be gained in the future for meeting Pound, but let's wait and see. The Tamate Box thing just had to happen. It begged to happen since the set up back in Fishman Island, I don't think it's fair for people to criticize it too much. What did people think it would be used for? Making Big Mom more angry at Luffy? Kind of hard, really…

[K. Kira XXIII]

Well the box exploding was the last trigger for Mama to go on a rampage, so it did make her angrier.

[Koliber]

It could be used in a situation that wouldn't make it look like SHs are saved by sheer luck. For example, Jinbe could have the knowledge on what is inside and as a desperate move try to provoke someone to open it.

[kevo_koma]

@FelRes:

Has anyone figured out the point of Pound yet?

He's the reason why Lola had a Vivre Card in the first place. Its my guess. It was mentioned that no one else from the family has one.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@STP_PS:

Speaking of pound. Over 40 or more husbands to meet and the crew stumbles upon Lola's/Chiffon father. Convenient much? I'd say yes. Now, what has happened with the others? have they been disposed of? is there an anti Big MUm society brewing in the shadows which strives to take down Big Mama? or are all of them as lame as pound:blink:. What did Linlin see in this guy in the first place? there must be a catch, maybe he's filthy rich because frankly I can't see Linlin harrassing this guy for his genes. Which leads me to, how on earth did she manage to have all these kids? I bet she's single and virgin while everyone was adopted:ninja:

I can easily imagine Big Mom paying off her husbands to go and retire in one of her islands or killing off the ones she liked. Pound is a big dude, so maybe he's one of the few who can actually do something with her.

I agree alot of her kids might actually be adopted. It would tie into her backstory .

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@Chrior:

To be fair, out of all the possible conveniences they've had in their journey, meeting Pound has to be the most useless one, honestly. And Big Mom's Vivre Card turned out to be not as useful as initially thought. Yeah, Nami could control homies and that helped them escape the Woods, but does anyone think they would be unable to destroy a bunch of trees and get on with it? Sooner or later, they would have worked around it anyway. The most godly help they've had so far is the one they kind of planted themselves, the Tamate Box.

I disagree, without the card, the fight against Cracker would have been much more difficult. I agree that Pound is a useless character but a story needs tertiary characters in order to work,

[Sibersk Esto]

@Koliber:

It could be used in a situation that wouldn't make it look like SHs are saved by sheer luck. For example, Jinbe could have the knowledge on what is inside and as a desperate move try to provoke someone to open it.

I prefer the way it played out. It was like that old Hitchcock "bomb under the table" advice where the best way to increase suspense is by letting the audience know something the characters don't.

[Blissed]

I'm honestly surprised people took issue with the bomb.

[Sirxxx]

@Blissed:

I'm honestly surprised people took issue with the bomb.

People here take issue with a lot, as if they haven't read 883 previous chapters of this same story or something :-/ Or at least know the story beats.

[MadieV]

@Sirxxx:

People here take issue with a lot, as if they haven't read 883 previous chapters of this same story or something :-/ Or at least know the story beats.

Believe me, the forum is rather tame now. At the beginning of the Dressrosa arc the chapter threads were pure crazyness.

[BattleFranky69]

New guy here, howdy. Gonna throw some things out there.

I don't get how Katakuri's DF is only a Paramecia if it can affect his body shape; I mean, it's not like Trebon's from Doflamingo's group where his skinny body was just hiding in his sticky slime, so how is it not Logia? I know his is awakened, but that's still pretty badly blurring the lines between the two. Or was I mistaken and his movement just makes it APPEAR like he's changing the shape of his body? Because I re-read the chapter and the words actually say it's a little of both, so that's really confusing.

But I agree with others who've said Luffy will find a way to make him lose his cool, like taunting him about his mouth, or hey, maybe even talking smack about his mama. And if his finishing blow happens to send Katakuri flying into whatever mirror Brulee is hiding in, well, Luffy can make his escape unmolested by Brulee's shenanigans.

It just feels weird how the timing on all of this is supposed to work out. It's so hard to believe the chase between Big Mom and the ship, and the time it takes to make the cake, prep it for delivery and then taking it wherever it needs to go, is all going to be exactly right to work out perfectly.

And I know Luffy already got on her bad side once, and she didn't really do anything about it, and even when she knew full well she was going to have Pudding put a bullet between Sanji's eyes, she still spared Luffy and Nami when they were locked up, when there was no need for it. Seriously confusing, but this makes me think there's a pretty empty threat of them coming after the Straw Hats again once they've gotten out of her immediate territory. Unless there's so much time needed to recover from the whuppings the Straw Hats have put on her top commanders and they take priority on rebuilding and regrouping before going on any further revenge missions. Plus there's Bege and the Vinsmokes to think about too, in terms of who needs to be punished.

[Ace 4]

@BattleFranky69:

New guy here, howdy. Gonna throw some things out there.

I don't get how Katakuri's DF is only a Paramecia if it can affect his body shape; I mean, it's not like Trebon's from Doflamingo's group where his skinny body was just hiding in his sticky slime, so how is it not Logia? I know his is awakened, but that's still pretty badly blurring the lines between the two. Or was I mistaken and his movement just makes it APPEAR like he's changing the shape of his body? Because I re-read the chapter and the words actually say it's a little of both, so that's really confusing.

But I agree with others who've said Luffy will find a way to make him lose his cool, like taunting him about his mouth, or hey, maybe even talking smack about his mama. And if his finishing blow happens to send Katakuri flying into whatever mirror Brulee is hiding in, well, Luffy can make his escape unmolested by Brulee's shenanigans.

It just feels weird how the timing on all of this is supposed to work out. It's so hard to believe the chase between Big Mom and the ship, and the time it takes to make the cake, prep it for delivery and then taking it wherever it needs to go, is all going to be exactly right to work out perfectly.

And I know Luffy already got on her bad side once, and she didn't really do anything about it, and even when she knew full well she was going to have Pudding put a bullet between Sanji's eyes, she still spared Luffy and Nami when they were locked up, when there was no need for it. Seriously confusing, but this makes me think there's a pretty empty threat of them coming after the Straw Hats again once they've gotten out of her immediate territory. Unless there's so much time needed to recover from the whuppings the Straw Hats have put on her top commanders and they take priority on rebuilding and regrouping before going on any further revenge missions. Plus there's Bege and the Vinsmokes to think about too, in terms of who needs to be punished.

Katakuri's fruit is weird. But it makes sense. What makes him not a logia is due to the fact that he cant be attacked without being hurt. Katakuri satates he shapes his body in order to dodge meaning he cant just stand there and have things go through him. Luffy could actually do the same if he tries. He's got enough control over his body to inflate and deflate at will, stretch his limbs with little to no force. Not saying he can now but he probably could replicate what Katakuri does.

[Kaido King of the Beasts]

Big Mom was going to kill all the WCI Straw Hats. She just had Opera try to torture Luffy and Nami for Lola's location beforehand and that's when Jinbe came in and saved them.

[cloudrivera]

Thinking about it, I really don't see the Strawhats fighting Big Mom's crew again. Luffy is about to defeat 2 of the 4 top Crew Members. One was defeated by Urouge. Zoro won't fight Smoothie, neither will Sanji. Nami and Robin won't fight her (I'm sorry, but this is Oda we're talking about). This just screams for Blackbeard to enter and wreck. What better chance would he have?

I know people will bring up Elbaf, but I can see Elbaf being a team up of the remainder Big Mom forces and the Strawhats against either some BB force or even the Navy.

I do not believe Luffy will defeat all the Yonkous. He didn't defeat all the Warlords. We know he won't defeat Shanks. Plus, it makes more sense for Big Mom not to chase after Luffy after he escapes if she has to deal with BB, rather than because of Sanji's cooking.

The arc is not over, but if both Brook and Chopper manage to get a fight and defeat someone each then I really don't see rematches happening.

[K. Kira XXIII]

It is more likely the marines would make a move. Considering they have CP0 in the area.

[Blissed]

I mean, Sanji literally said he planned on making her faint with the cake. If Blackbeard shows up, it won't be until long after Luffy has already left.

[No swords style best style]

I really liked that chapter. Seeing Luffy turn things around with Gear 4th was pretty satisfying, and while I was a little disappointed on my first read-through that Katakuri was simply using Obersavtion to avoid getting hit by moving his body, I ended up liking how this fits in with what has already been established about DF powers and Haki rather than it being some out-of-nowhere thing that Katakuri can do just for the sake of it. I agree that Luffy's most likely going to win by making Kata lose his cool again, but since Katakuri has to keep his body in one piece (lol), an attack bigger that he is or an attack that goes horizontally (like how Darth Maul was cut in half) should also connect if Katakuri can't move his entire body out of the way.

I also like how Gear 4th has a clear advantage over Katakuri now that Luffy's got a read on him, considering it's never been equaled from what we've up to this point. Doffy put up a fight but was definitely outclassed in speed and power, and Cracker's biscuit soldiers were taken down in a couple of blows each, the problem was the number of them he could make. I have this weird love-hate relationship with Haki in that I really like to talk about it but don't really like it that much in the actual story, since Observation feels a bit wonky at times and Armament seemed to setting things up for a end-game where the person with the higher power level always wins and all the major New World enemies so far (Hody, Caesar, Doffy) were defeated by giant Haki punches with little if any thought about what they could do. Here, it's shown on both sides that figuring out what your opponent's techniques and tricks are and coming up with a way to counter them is still viable even if their numbers are higher.

Incorporating doughnuts into "serious" Katakuri's moveset was fantastic and power mochi has won me over for awakenings after Doflamingo's made me view them somewhere between "why is this a thing" and "well, that's random."

Personally found it a bit jarring that Oven went from "alright, I'll keep out if it's what Pudding wants" to mercilessly attacking Pound, but I guess he can't find out about Sanji too soon and in-story probably shares his mother's views on who counts as family.

We all agree that Praline's in the running for MVP of this arc alongside Brook, Nami, and Jimbe, right? XD

[BattleFranky69]

@•Ace•:

Katakuri's fruit is weird. But it makes sense. What makes him not a logia is due to the fact that he cant be attacked without being hurt. Katakuri satates he shapes his body in order to dodge meaning he cant just stand there and have things go through him. Luffy could actually do the same if he tries. He's got enough control over his body to inflate and deflate at will, stretch his limbs with little to no force. Not saying he can now but he probably could replicate what Katakuri does.

I get that it's weird, it just defies the typical convention of how Paramecia fruits work. Luffy's made of rubber and can alter his body shape, yes, but he can't PRODUCE rubber or manipulate it outside of his own body. Doflamingo, contrastingly, cannot turn his body into strings or give it the properties of strings (just creating a decoy that looks like him out of them) but can infinitely produce and manipulate them. So usually when you get the best of both worlds in that way, it's a Logia. But Katakuri seems to enjoy that dual benefit without actually being a Logia. I just find that a little annoying because then it blurs the lines between the conventional definitions that separate them and makes the whole thing go out the window. I really don't see why it benefits from not being a Logia when he could still do absolutely everything he's already doing with one of those anyway, and more.

@Blissed:

I mean, Sanji literally said he planned on making her faint with the cake. If Blackbeard shows up, it won't be until long after Luffy has already left.

The Vinsmokes have a serious vendetta against Big Mom, so there's every possibility they'll be the ones who buy the crew time to get out of Dodge, not to mention Bege is most certainly going to go back to retrieve his baby-mama if she can't make it back to him herself. So even if they don't manage to tranquilize Big Mom or just make something so scrumptious that it sends her into a food coma, there's ways to keep her from continuing to chase them.

But also, something tells me there might be an inkling about Mother Caramel's dirty doings that will come to light and really shatter Big Mom's mind with the truth of such a horrible revelation about the only person she feels genuinely cared about her. Considering she had dealings with the Marines, and they have agents in attendance at the wedding, it stands to reason such info about Big Mom is known to the relevant personnel and anyone going into her territory would be informed about something that would be a potential weakness of hers to exploit if an escape or assassination became necessary.

[Ace 4]

@BattleFranky69:

I get that it's weird, it just defies the typical convention of how Paramecia fruits work. Luffy's made of rubber and can alter his body shape, yes, but he can't PRODUCE rubber or manipulate it outside of his own body. Doflamingo, contrastingly, cannot turn his body into strings or give it the properties of strings (just creating a decoy that looks like him out of them) but can infinitely produce and manipulate them. So usually when you get the best of both worlds in that way, it's a Logia. But Katakuri seems to enjoy that dual benefit without actually being a Logia. I just find that a little annoying because then it blurs the lines between the conventional definitions that separate them and makes the whole thing go out the window. I really don't see why it benefits from not being a Logia when he could still do absolutely everything he's already doing with one of those anyway, and more.

Basically, Katakuri can do everything a Paramecia is able to do with a hint of Logia. The main thing, as Ive pointed out that prevents him from being a Logia is due to the fact he doesmt have the natural defenses of a Logia. Kizaru for example. You slice him, shoot him, whatever, and nothing will happen without him having to do a thing. Katakuri on the other hand literally has to reshape his body. I dont know why Oda did this but you cant classify him as anything but a Paramecia. A Special Paramecia in fact due to him being able to turn into his ability whilst lacking the defense of a Logia. The conventional definitions are still there. Anything that doesnt belong in the Zoan or Logia category is a Paramecia. Its no different with Blackbeard. Why isnt he a Paramecia even though he lacks the defense of a Logia? That I aint even sure of.

[pRopaaNS]

@•Ace•:

…Katakuri satates he shapes his body in order to dodge meaning he cant just stand there and have things go through him. Luffy could actually do the same if he tries. He's got enough control over his body to inflate and deflate at will, stretch his limbs with little to no force. Not saying he can now but he probably could replicate what Katakuri does.

Sorry, but there is no way Luffy can do that. Luffys DF allows him to merely change elasticity of his body, but he still have to use his muscles and joints to move it. Luffy doesn't have shapeshifting ability like Katakuri does, where Katakuri can freely manipulate exact shape and size of his mochi without any effort.

[Seafarer33]

@pRopaaNS:

Sorry, but there is no way Luffy can do that. Luffys DF allows him to merely change elasticity of his body, but he still have to use his muscles and joints to move it. Luffy doesn't have shapeshifting ability like Katakuri does, where Katakuri can freely manipulate exact shape and size of his mochi without any effort.

Does he really have to ? Up to gear 3 I do agree that each of his attack moves is based on normal motions & momentum triggering the elasticity of his body, but gear 4 has clearly taken a step beyond that. There's no plausible way muscles or joints are going to explain the retractable limbs or the homing punch…

I do agree however that the consistency of rubber should not allow him to punch holes or open gaps in his body the way Katakuri does. But using haki, willpower or whatever to bend a limb or torso out of harm's way without any supporting motion doesn't sound like much of a stretch (pun intended)

[Razh]

@Seafarer33:

I do agree however that the consistency of rubber should not allow him to punch holes or open gaps in his body the way Katakuri does. But using haki, willpower or whatever to bend a limb or torso out of harm's way without any supporting motion doesn't sound like much of a stretch (pun intended)

I don't know, I think doing that could tire him out quickly.

[Seafarer33]

@K.:

It is more likely the marines would make a move. Considering they have CP0 in the area.

It does sound the likeliest at the moment considering that Stucy was the only guest to become fully unmasked; also Akainu's post-timeskip fleet badly needs some street credit. But with all those shady wedding attendees still around there could be informers for pretty much anyone ready to report that defenses are down & the kingdom's weakened.

Edit: I see what you did there, Razh :happy: Wish I had a clever reply, but I'm out of rubber semantics.

[pRopaaNS]

@Seafarer33:

Does he really have to ? Up to gear 3 I do agree that each of his attack moves is based on normal motions & momentum triggering the elasticity of his body, but gear 4 has clearly taken a step beyond that. There's no plausible way muscles or joints are going to explain the retractable limbs or the homing punch…

I do agree however that the consistency of rubber should not allow him to punch holes or open gaps in his body the way Katakuri does. But using haki, willpower or whatever to bend a limb or torso out of harm's way without any supporting motion doesn't sound like much of a stretch (pun intended)

Gear4's homing punch is far cry from Katakuri freely manipulating exact shape, size and properties of his mochi without aid of armaments haki. Luffy isn't good at stuff like this. Instead one of his talents and strengths he's known for is his agility and speed. Why should Luffy spend time and effort learning something that he's fundamentally not talented at, when he already have sufficient skills for dodging attacks?

[Seafarer33]

@pRopaaNS:

Why should Luffy spend time and effort learning something that he's fundamentally not talented at, when he already have sufficient skills for dodging attacks?

I'm not saying he should. We've seen him literally pull his own head out of harms way several times and that's a very fitting style, I agree. I'm merely pointing out that, shall the need arise, Luffy does have the possibility to explore this path. Gear 4 already exploits manipulations of his body shape, albeit far from the sort of control Kataluri has, so I could see body-manipulation dodge become a thing if Oda thinks it adds to the dynamics of a fight. Never to the extent of Katakuri's and wouldn't look anything like a logia either, but the possibility exists.

[pRopaaNS]

@Seafarer33:

I'm not saying he should. We've seen him literally pull his own head out of harms way several times and that's a very fitting style, I agree. I'm merely pointing out that, shall the need arise, Luffy does have the possibility to explore this path. Gear 4 already exploits manipulations of his body shape, albeit far from the sort of control Kataluri has, so I could see body-manipulation dodge become a thing if Oda thinks it adds to the dynamics of a fight. Never to the extent of Katakuri's and wouldn't look anything like a logia either, but the possibility exists.

I think that there are far more interesting techniques he could take from other OP characters, because dodging attacks have been portrayed as one of Luffys talents since beginning of series. It'd be underwhelming to see him reaching limit of that agility and having to resort on learning tricks like that to compensate.

[Razh]

@Seafarer33:

Edit: I see what you did there, Razh :happy: Wish I had a clever reply, but I'm out of rubber semantics.

There's plenty of time, no pressure.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@pRopaaNS:

I think that there are far more interesting techniques he could take from other OP characters, because dodging attacks have been portrayed as one of Luffys talents since beginning of series. It'd be underwhelming to see him reaching limit of that agility and having to resort on learning tricks like that to compensate.

But the possibility of Luffy creating his own version of Kami-e from Rokushiki seems interesting to me, for example.

But I'm guessing Oda would have done something with it already, if that's the direction he wanted to go in.

[BattleFranky69]

@pRopaaNS:

Sorry, but there is no way Luffy can do that. Luffys DF allows him to merely change elasticity of his body, but he still have to use his muscles and joints to move it. Luffy doesn't have shapeshifting ability like Katakuri does, where Katakuri can freely manipulate exact shape and size of his mochi without any effort.

That's basically the point I was making; I mean, why not just make Katakuri a Logia so that this oddity doesn't stand out? If he knows Haki can bypass his usual immunity, wouldn't he have had incentive to learn how to quickly disassemble and reassemble in whatever shapes he wanted in order to avoid attacks, thus negating the need to use Haki defensively (not that it's not terribly effective already anyway)? He'd have a huge edge over other Logia users who don't have that kind of control over their bodies and still stand out but not in the awkward way that a mere Paramecia fruit does.

[No swords style best style]

@BattleFranky69:

That's basically the point I was making; I mean, why not just make Katakuri a Logia so that this oddity doesn't stand out? If he knows Haki can bypass his usual immunity, wouldn't he have had incentive to learn how to quickly disassemble and reassemble in whatever shapes he wanted in order to avoid attacks, thus negating the need to use Haki defensively (not that it's not terribly effective already anyway)? He'd have a huge edge over other Logia users who don't have that kind of control over their bodies and still stand out but not in the awkward way that a mere Paramecia fruit does.

My personal theory on the change is because Katakuri constantly uses armament haki with his mochi (like kicking Luffy at the wedding and his own Elephant Gun) while the other logias like Smoker and Sabo didn't seem able to apply armament to their natural states (no black smoke, no black fire).

[pRopaaNS]

@BattleFranky69:

That's basically the point I was making; I mean, why not just make Katakuri a Logia so that this oddity doesn't stand out? If he knows Haki can bypass his usual immunity, wouldn't he have had incentive to learn how to quickly disassemble and reassemble in whatever shapes he wanted in order to avoid attacks, thus negating the need to use Haki defensively (not that it's not terribly effective already anyway)? He'd have a huge edge over other Logia users who don't have that kind of control over their bodies and still stand out but not in the awkward way that a mere Paramecia fruit does.

I'd guess that it's just Oda letting himself loose with more expansive and interesting DF powers. Sure could be logia, but then it wouldn't be a novel case. Also mochi isn't natural element, so it can't be logia without retconning the entire DF class.

As for why Katakuri isn't simply reforming his body in response to attacks, but instead uses future vision with CoO to make holes inside of himself to perfectly matching opponents attack, the problem is that Katakuri could easily do so if he desired. It'd just be less efficient use of his powers and wouldn't have that extra layer of making impression as if he's immune to attacks. It makes him interesting as fighter instead of just having Luffy fight against a generic yonkou commander class fighter with abilities we have already seen in some way through the story.

[Razh]

@No:

My personal theory on the change is because Katakuri constantly uses armament haki with his mochi (like kicking Luffy at the wedding and his own Elephant Gun) while the other logias like Smoker and Sabo didn't seem able to apply armament to their natural states (no black smoke, no black fire).

There's no reason why Aokiji, Akainu, Caribou, Crocodile or Monet shouldn't be able to apply Armament to their states, though. There's no reason why Caribou, for example, shouldn't be able to create swamp Hardened fists coming out of swamp donuts.

It just sucks having an intangible element logia like Smoker, Ace/Sabo, Kizaru or Caesar.

[No swords style best style]

@Razh:

There's no reason why Aokiji, Akainu, Caribou, Crocodile or Monet shouldn't be able to apply Armament to their states, though. There's no reason why Caribou, for example, shouldn't be able to create swamp Hardened fists coming out of swamp donuts.

It just sucks having an intangible element logia like Smoker, Ace/Sabo, Kizaru or Caesar.

Part of it was that I was thinking about how Akainu only mentioned his devil fruit when talking about how he could hit Ace and didn't say anything about Haki at all, but now that I look at it from your angle you're probably right about how it's the state of the logia that makes a difference, since you can't hit someone with smoke.

[Haisha Haisha no Mi]

@No:

Part of it was that I was thinking about how Akainu only mentioned his devil fruit when talking about how he could hit Ace and didn't say anything about Haki at all, but now that I look at it from your angle you're probably right about how it's the state of the logia that makes a difference, since you can't hit someone with smoke.

On the surface, this seems correct. But if smoke cannot hit someone, how can it be used to capture them. I believe Luffy was captured by smoke in Loguetown until he used a balloon to break out.