Zeno: You see, Caulifla is essentially a metaphorical whore because she only use men for power and
I agree… huh? Lol
Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly
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I wonder if U7 brought some too then.
But it seems like a gamble cause if a fused fighter gets rung out you lose two people at once.
Fused fighters also run out of energy twice as fast.
Zeno: You see, Caulifla is essentially a metaphorical whore because she only use men for power and
That wasn't in the episode…
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It was a long post that someone on Kanzenshuu made around episode 100.
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I went back to episode 97 to check and yes, only healing items and weapons are forbidden.
So this was never a inconsistency to begin with. 18 using the sunglases, Krillin using his shoe and Roshi using the jar is fine. There was no rule about outside interference mentioned, either.
In the end Potara themselves aren't weapons, so it's the "Goku gets destroyed by his own technique" type of loophole.
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I went back to episode 97 to check and yes, only healing items and weapons are forbidden.
So this was never a inconsistency to begin with. 18 using the sunglases, Krillin using his shoe and Roshi using the jar is fine. There was no rule about outside interference mentioned, either.
In the end Potara themselves aren't weapons, so it's the "Goku gets destroyed by his own technique" type of loophole.
Does that mean they can use Potara to fuse disqualified warriors with warriors still in the ring?
It's something no one's tried yet, but I wonder if they will. -
I dunno. That seems a little too far-fetched. I feel like that's why the scene with Frost happened, to put some uncertainty in there.
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Wouldn't the Potara earrings pull them towards each other? Either it'd drag somebody off the stage towards the sideline or off the sideline onto the stage; either way seems like it'd be a disqualification.
Complicating things since 2009.
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Yeah, I was having fun picturing something like this…
! Champa: QUICKLY, HIT! PUT THE EARRING IN YOUR LEFT EAR!
Hit (in the sidelines): I don't have ears…
Champa: STUCK IT IN THE HOLE, WHATEVER! CAULIFLA, NOW!
Caulifla (in the ring): Huh!? Oh, right... that.
Champa: WATCH, BEERUS! THE UNIVERSE 6 TRUMP CARD...
Caulifla and Hit fuse
... HITLA!
! Cabba: How powerful!
Krillin: Oh no, Goku!
Dr. Rota: Now they will be able to...
Whis: Oh, they are falling!
! Having materialized in the space between the ring and the sidelines, Hitla falls into the nothingness and reappears next to Champa
! Champa: ...
Vados: ... You didn't plan that through, did you, Champa-sama? -
! Was Hitla intended? I mean, I don't think we need the Germans to meddle with this tournament
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I know this is gonna sound like a silly question but… can Freeza use Potara's at all? He has no ears but... maybe if he put them inside the ear? How would that work? Frost + Freeza would be cool... Froza
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Actually they pierce their tongues and french kiss into fusion.
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Latest chapter of DBS:
! Toppo is even more of a beast in the manga than they showed in the anime, not to mention he actually won his fight and then outright stated Jiren was stronger than Universe 11's God of destruction.
It'd be nice if they actually focused on other characters other than Goku in this tournament. Get back to the Androids or Gohan, hell i want Freiza to actually do something. And lastly, i want more Toppo vs Vegeta.
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I think we could agree that the upcoming episode will end with the birth of Kalefla? I somehow expect we see the Namekians vs Gohan/Piccolo again, and/or Vegeta vs Toppo, to fill in the episode..
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It'd be nice if they actually focused on other characters other than Goku in this tournament. Get back to the Androids or Gohan, hell i want Freiza to actually do something. And lastly, i want more Toppo vs Vegeta.
They are, their names are Caulifla and Kale.
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The Androids? They got their focus in episodes 99, 102-103, and besides 17 is a ratings killer.
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17 is a ratings killer? I was under the impression people liked him.
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17 is a ratings killer? I was under the impression people liked him.
He's a bit bland, but I think he works really well for deadpan comedy. They need to use him more.
They are, their names are Caulifla and Kale.
Toriyama had to slip Jiren a sleeping pill so the other characters could get back in the spotlight, didn't he?
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17 is a ratings killer? I was under the impression people liked him.
The west like him.
I remember in one of the polls(Title was Who is the fighter you are cheering of the most), 17 ranked dead last.
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Yeah. I've definitely seen the fanboys in the west come out of the wood work when he fought Goku. I kinda forget that what we like has no barring lol.
But he is a bit bland. 18 seems to have a bit more personality.
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Toriyama had to slip Jiren a sleeping pill so the other characters could get back in the spotlight, didn't he?
Compared to some of the other members in U7, it's amusing that the girls are getting so much screentime
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Well of course no one cares about 17, he hasn't been on camera in like 20 years and hasn't interacted with any of the cast.
He's for all intents and purposes a filler character they made up for the tournament, and he's dull on top of that.
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Well of course no one cares about 17, he hasn't been on camera in like 20 years and hasn't interacted with any of the cast.
He's for all intents and purposes a filler character they made up for the tournament, and he's dull on top of that.
Got to give him props for interrupting Ribriannes transformation though.
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About the potaras, of course Zeno will allow them. Because instead of a real character he's nothing more than a plot device to move forward whatever the writers come up with.
He's supposed to be unpredictable and erratic? Bullshit, two episodes ago he asked what the rules were. Seriously, dude, you ARE the rules! At least you were supposed to if you were an actual character driven by some actual motivation…
Forum user Bartholemew Bear passed away in a very moving and touching way. I, ARTEMlS, therefore carry on the Will of DArth for good unto its final fulfilment.
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About the potaras, of course Zeno will allow them. Because instead of a real character he's nothing more than a plot device to move forward whatever the writers come up with.
He's supposed to be unpredictable and erratic? Bullshit, two episodes ago he asked what the rules were. Seriously, dude, you ARE the rules! At least you were supposed to if you were an actual character driven by some actual motivation…
I think he works in the manga so far, with the Great Priest showing no hesitation or consideration for others in changing the world to suit Zeno's whims as quickly as possible.
Hopefully he doesn't become anywhere near as annoying as his anime counterpart.
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I'm just waiting for one of the Zenos to turn evil.
You don't do blue and red opposites imagery in your opening just for style.
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Zeno has pretty obvious and firmly established motivations and characterization.
You can think he's one-note and dislike him, but he has a character that has been pretty consistent throughout this whole thing.
I'm still betting on the Grand Priest planning something. The Omni Kings are just innocent children with a lot of power.
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If this whole reality erasing from the previous arc is going to amount to something (it didn't even produce proper bitter-sweet ending since Trunks got a new timeline made for him), then Zenos will have to turn on each other. Unless Toriyama did it just to have the joke with one raising the wrong hand constantly which I wouldn't put past him.
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For all the talk of Toriyama's involvement, I don't think he's doing much more than some character designs every couple of months.
You could feel his fingerprints all over the Battle of Gods movie, but the series as a whole has pretty much just felt like filler material. What the people imitating Toriyama come up, what the fanfics end up doing 20 years later.
For cripes sake, we have a single tournament taking well over a year. Even the longest tournaments in Dragonball went for a grand total of 15 episodes. This one is already past 20 episodes and is only halfway (and its already at nearly 40 episodes if you count the exhibition and team gathering)
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I think there was some Toyotaro/Toriyama intervirew which gave us some input on what was Toriyama's idea (Potara earring retcon, Zamasu's character as a whole, Goku Black) and what was Toyotaro (Vegetto's inclusion which apparently affected the anime). Zenos weren't mentioned though. By the waay, I generally find Toyotaro's work to be pretty unimaginative given him being a fanboy when I compare it to fans' ideas I've seen as a kid and the ones I see for some other stuff. He really is just chasing after Toriyama, which is even pointed out in the interview. I think his biggest "risks" taken were healing powers for Trunks (which were little more than plot device) and hakai for Goku.
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I feel like the key points are Toriyama's, but the anime is doing a Z thing with it. Ribrianne's transformation took half an episode. The special's flaw in my eyes was how much padding there was. 100 was padding-central. It's a lot better than the retellings and the FT arc was with it's pacing, but 100% in Z mode.
This week's episode was one of my favorites of the ToP because eventhough in the big picture it didn't seem to accomplish much, the episode itself kept the action going while explaining everything going on as well as it possibly could. Every episode should be like that.
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I'm just waiting for one of the Zenos to turn evil.
You don't do blue and red opposites imagery in your opening just for style.
Considering that they represent the Dragon Ball fandom with Normal Zeno being the old DBZ fanbase and Future Zeno being the new DBS fanbase without knowledge of old DB(Z)…
So which one will go nuts then?
Forum user Bartholemew Bear passed away in a very moving and touching way. I, ARTEMlS, therefore carry on the Will of DArth for good unto its final fulfilment.
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Normal Zeno isn't the old DBZ fanbase because he hasn't gone on a rant about how power levels are the be-all end-all, that girls shouldn't be in the tournament, and how Cell was the pinnacle of writing.
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Give em' time, I'm sure U13 and forward were destroyed because they dared to bring Arale to their tournament of power.
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little do we know that Past Zeno was actually lobotomized by the Grand Priest after he wiped out Universes 13-18 for not having high enough power levels
Set Art by Daily Rowlet -
@Cyan:
Normal Zeno isn't the old DBZ fanbase because he hasn't gone on a rant about how power levels are the be-all end-all, that girls shouldn't be in the tournament, and how Cell was the pinnacle of writing.
Pinnacle of writing in what story or good villain with a badass design cause I thought the go to was Brolly?
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Normal Zeno is going to put AMVs of the ToP on Godtube with some slick Linkin Park and Disturbed music.
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Set Art by Daily Rowlet
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I always wondered why DB of all things attracted the "ow the edge" crowd and it's the old US dub and it's music isn't it. Og DB wasn't all that known in the US, either, right?
Linkin Park is purely western and Zeno's probably more the Japanese audience equivalent, but I guess it could be both.
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I always wondered why DB of all things attracted the "ow the edge" crowd and it's the old US dub and it's music isn't it. Og DB wasn't all that known in the US, either, right?
Linkin Park is purely western and Zeno's probably more the Japanese audience equivalent, but I guess it could be both.
Not quite sure what you mean by the edge comment.
Original DB seemed plenty popular in the US, or at least where I'm from, because I remember watching it as a child. Though come to think of it, it must not of been through TV, but through the internet and my older brother
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DBZ was the popular one in the US and is seemingly remembered as this more mature and dark series by some of the older fans.
The amount of "this is not a kids show" defense seems strangely common. It is more violent than Super and maybe even original DB, but tone-wise 100% a Shounen.
Basically I was referring to Cyan's comment.
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I guess that people take it from comparing it to other TV shows that they've seen as kids, and often there were not battle shounens. I've seen it similarly as 7 years old.
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Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z, and GT, and Super are shows made for children.
To think anything else is folly.
I wasn't distracted by Lucy being half naked.
You won this week Fairy Tail.
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There's a new interview on Super with some pretty interesting details:
The ToP will apparently last till at least March.
Relevant to the discussion we're having: they state that Super is aimed at grade-schoolers and the retellings were Toriyama's idea for kids who might've missed the movies.
Turns out Toei does not do much to deviate from Toriyama's outline. They also don't know how the story would end yet because Toriyama hasn't decided yet, so the interview with Toyotarou some time ago might not hold much weight.
There might be some sort of announcement in December.
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I'm not surprised that the arc is lasting until March. At this rate they might as well keep it going so that Gokuu's rematch with Jiren can have a decent staff.
Also new, as of Episode #113 Nakamura Ryouta is credited first as series director. Originally Nagamine Tatsuya was the first credited, but now that they've switched it's a pretty clear sign that Nagamine is leaving the project. Dragon Ball Super is Nakamura's first project as series director, but his directing in Episode #75 and other episodes is really solid. My hope is that at JUMP Festa Nagamine will be announced as directing a new Dragon Ball movie.
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Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z, and GT, and Super are shows made for children.
To think anything else is folly.
So is One Piece. So are Disney movies. Hell, Ben 10 is marketed to 10 year olds and has better writing, characters and consistency than this nonsense.
Unlike Super, while these shows are willing to do silly and whimsical to entertain, they don't completely abandon their established plot, continuity, and motivations just because:
"Oh no we need to make it look cool so the kids keep watching, who cares about the story, show off as many gokuu forms as possible in a single episode! Transformations sell, and we can market them as toys! Doesn't matter that the opponent is vastly outclassed anyway, drag on the episode! We need to fill 20 mintues with something!"
Seriously, the only time anyone did this in DBZ to my recollection was Frieza vs Goku and co, because Frieza had a superiority complex and didn't want to lower himself to their level by 'showing' his best form. Arguably Vegeta has done some stupid things, like letting Cell get perfect form, or letting Babidi take over. But that was always framed as 'BAD' because Vegeta's pride is the reason these things happen, and he needs to get rid of it.But Goku? Goku literally drags on every battle in the series. And it's never framed as bad! It's just used for fake tension. Fake tension that could only fool a pre-schooler, which is why everyone complains about it being marketed to kids. Another way to put it is 'it has terrible writing, which only kids below 8 could not spot. And even those probably aren't as engaged as they'd be in DBZ, where the stakes in place felt real and the power levels, while veering towards absurd, were still kept relatively consistent.
Everything about DBS makes me angry. If it didn't have the DB trademark to keep it going, nobody would watch it. Because it's just bad, and the only way to ignore it being bad is putting on your nostalgia glasses and ignoring all the bad writing.
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So is One Piece. So are Disney movies. Hell, Ben 10 is marketed to 10 year olds and has better writing, characters and consistency than this nonsense.
Unlike Super, while these shows are willing to do silly and whimsical to entertain, they don't completely abandon their established plot, continuity, and motivations just because:
"Oh no we need to make it look cool so the kids keep watching, who cares about the story, show off as many gokuu forms as possible in a single episode! Transformations sell, and we can market them as toys! Doesn't matter that the opponent is vastly outclassed anyway, drag on the episode! We need to fill 20 mintues with something!"
Seriously, the only time anyone did this in DBZ to my recollection was Frieza vs Goku and co, because Frieza had a superiority complex and didn't want to lower himself to their level by 'showing' his best form. Arguably Vegeta has done some stupid things, like letting Cell get perfect form, or letting Babidi take over. But that was always framed as 'BAD' because Vegeta's pride is the reason these things happen, and he needs to get rid of it.But Goku? Goku literally drags on every battle in the series. And it's never framed as bad! It's just used for fake tension. Fake tension that could only fool a pre-schooler, which is why everyone complains about it being marketed to kids. Another way to put it is 'it has terrible writing, which only kids below 8 could not spot. And even those probably aren't as engaged as they'd be in DBZ, where the stakes in place felt real and the power levels, while veering towards absurd, were still kept relatively consistent.
Everything about DBS makes me angry. If it didn't have the DB trademark to keep it going, nobody would watch it. Because it's just bad, and the only way to ignore it being bad is putting on your nostalgia glasses and ignoring all the bad writing.
Or maybe you just grew up? Maybe after DBZ ended and you watched other shows, shows with actual good storytelling and plot and you forgot what Dragon Ball actually was, and not what your nostalgia tells you it is.
I love Super, probably because I go into it knowing EXACTLY what it is, and my expectations are low enough that I can enjoy it. Yet that is just me, and if you don't like it, that's cool.
Dragon Ball is not made for ME, a white western man who grew up with the botched DBZ dubs during the Golden Age. It's for the next generation, for new children to discover and enjoy like we did. For young parents to share it with their own children and enjoy. If Super gives us long term fans a wink and a nod, then it's great. But old school fans of all fandoms need to stop trying to make their shows "grow up" with them, and accept that some things are really just meant for children.
Please note that this isn't an attack on you personally, but on the relative attitude of the western fanbase in general; because let' be BRUTALLY honest here. Do you think those Japanese animators and Toei are really sitting in the boardroom going. 'I wonder how those 20 year old westerns will think of THIS!"
I wasn't distracted by Lucy being half naked.
You won this week Fairy Tail.
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Judging Super on its own merits…the first forty or so episodes are recap and every arc since has stayed true to the DBZ tradition of dragging things out ad nausium.
It was advertised as something made by the original creator for the fans, and the fact that neither of those claims turned out to be entirely true is depressing.
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Or maybe you just grew up? Maybe after DBZ ended and you watched other shows, shows with actual good storytelling and plot and you forgot what Dragon Ball actually was, and not what your nostalgia tells you it is.
I love Super, probably because I go into it knowing EXACTLY what it is, and my expectations are low enough that I can enjoy it. Yet that is just me, and if you don't like it, that's cool.
Dragon Ball is not made for ME, a white western man who grew up with the botched DBZ dubs during the Golden Age. It's for the next generation, for new children to discover and enjoy like we did. For young parents to share it with their own children and enjoy. If Super gives us long term fans a wink and a nod, then it's great. But old school fans of all fandoms need to stop trying to make their shows "grow up" with them, and accept that some things are really just meant for children.
Please note that this isn't an attack on you personally, but on the relative attitude of the western fanbase in general; because let' be BRUTALLY honest here. Do you think those Japanese animators and Toei are really sitting in the boardroom going. 'I wonder how those 20 year old westerns will think of THIS!"
Are you SURE it's not that Super is just a terribly written cash-grab, and Toriyama's too old (and somewhat senile, I suspect) to dedicate time and effort to a well constructed story? The original, while admittedly occassionally silly, was actually fairly well-written, had compelling and original characters, both villainous and not, and still holds up writing-wise to most current anime and manga.
It's not that Super is 'marketed to kids', or that 'we're not the target demographic'. It's just that Super has lazy writing, is inconsistent with its powers, every new character seems to be a trope instead of actually being developed, and it's just generally really awful at maintaining the suspension of disbelief in its audience. Regardless of the audience's age, Super is badly written. Has nothing to do with 'oh don't hate because you were a og dragonball fan this isn't meant for you'. It's just about expecting a tv show that has relatable, established characters, and makes minimal amounts of sense, while getting a tv show that is milking its IP's into the ground while producing worthless hot trash and maintaining itself by pandering to fans with transformations and flashy explosions instead of a half-decent plot or characters.
Seriously, can you tell me what Jiren's character is? Or Toppo's? Or Kale's? Or Vegeta's? Or even Gokuu? Hint Hint, if their character throughout the series can be summarized in 3 adjectives, or by referring to an established TV trope, they're not developed.
Invincible, Stoic, Power-ranger.
Righteous, Fabulous, Power-ranger.
Underconfident, Imouto, Gimmicky Power-up where she changes into a Super strong Yandere.
Dumb-but-confident, Battle-loving, Reckless?
Prideful, My Bulma, Angry!Goku and Vegeta are there too. Because their characters are 2D and Stale, and seemingly are carbon cutouts of their characters in DBZ.
To say the writing isn't piss-poor compared to DB and DBZ is ridiculous. Like come on. You're not actually serious are you? Just go back and watch any fighting scene from the tournaments in DB and compare it to even the best of scenes in DBS. It simply doesn't hold up. Or watch just one episode of the Saiyan Saga. The tension, the stakes, the dread, the characters actually seeming worried about what will happen. None of that in Super, and the bloody Universe is going to get annihilated. We've gone from being terrified of the Saiyans killing the everyone on earth to Roshi and Krillin joking around on the sidelines while it's clearer and clearer that their universe is doomed and they're all going to die because Jiren outclasses everyone.
Not to mention the animation being utter garbage for the majority of the show.
EDIT: The only character whose been written well throughout Super, in my opinion, is Beerus. Because he actually feels like more than a couple of adjectives and tropes thrown into a character design. You could argue Whis and Caulifla's characters have also not been terrible… but they're still way underdeveloped, and the way they've drawn Caulifla's eyes (like two white stickers stuck to her face) hurts every time I see it.
