I'm at the phone can't go through all of them right now. But people are obsessing how goku is never called upon his mistakes. No one brought up Vegeta in the story letting cell power up nor the massacre at the tournament, yeah he redeemed himself, to the audience, but did anyone ever touch upon it?
Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly
-
3DS FC: 0516-7666-3837
SW-4128-8032-0729
-
I'm at the phone can't go through all of them right now. But people are obsessing how goku is never called upon his mistakes. No one brought up Vegeta in the story letting cell power up nor the massacre at the tournament, yeah he redeemed himself, to the audience, but did anyone ever touch upon it?
Trunks did. Didn't he? Vegeta at that point was still an antihero, he wasn't a 'good guy' nor a 'bad guy'. He was a self obsessed prideful saiyan who cared only for himself, and fighting a stronger opponent. Nobody expected any better from him. He got cocky, but that's what the cast expected from Vegeta at that point.
That only really changes at the very end of the Buu arc, where Vegeta is fully redeemed. He still has the Majin Vegeta moment to come, so clearly, at that point, we're not supposed to see Vegeta as a full-on good guy yet.
Goku is different. Goku is the good guy. He always is. He's stupid, and he makes mistakes, and he's a little selfish about wanting a good fight. But the stakes in that battle were clear, he knew that Goku Black had destroyed the future, he should have done better.
The audience knows that, why doesn't the cast in the story? Nobody EVER mentions it. And really, Vegeta should have gone 'blue' and murdered Black the moment it looked like he would escape back into the void. He didn't. Nobody in the cast says a thing.
The reason can be pinned on bad writing. The writers needed the plot to drag on, needed Black to get a powerup, and used that fight to do it, no matter whether it was illogical or not. ie. A plothole.
And now SSJ (half blue) Trunks > Blue Vegito? BULLSHIT! He's unconsciously using the Spirit Bomb??? BULLSHIT! Goku took ages to learn that! It's turned into a SPIRIT SWORD? What is this, a bad fanfic??? This is why I'm saying GT is better. Because of stupid bullshit like this!
Jesus the Goku Black arc was stupid. Truly utter trash. Fullbringer level trash. Bleaarg. More beerus, less slimy 'god' who keeps monologuing. OMG it's still not over? KILL IT KILL IT. I feel like throwing up a little. 'He wants to become justice itself by becoming one with the Universe'. What were the writers smoking? This is horrible bullshit. It's gotten worse and worse. How can ANYONE defend this abomination?
-
Goku is more than a little selfish about fighting
Dude let Vegeta, who was personally involved in the deaths of three of his friends (and piccolo), go to get better after their fight because he wanted a good rematch
Goku, is an asshole
Set Art by Daily Rowlet -
I recommend you check out the Super manga, AfroSamurai. It actually addresses some of your complaints here. Namely it clears up a bit of the time travel nonsense in the Goku Black arc. It also is a bit better on the power level stuff. If anything i think it's just Toei being very vague and not trying to stick to anything like that, instead focusing on making a flashy fight and using powerups for dramatic tension when it's convient. Biggest example is Trunk's power up which is just purely played for being a cool moment but getting absolutely no explanation. Same with his final move of that arc
EDIT: another gripe about super, they've completely forgotten that Saiyans grow stronger when they're beaten. it irks me to no end! AND STOP USING GUNS AGAINST DB CHARACTERS MAI, IT NEVER WORKS!!!!!!!!!
This specifically was brought up recently in the manga. Vegeta eats a Senzu after fighting Black and Trunk's comments on how he barely increased in strength. It's noted that it seems Goku and Vegeta have gotten so strong that their bodies won't increase in power much upon being healed since they're hit the limit on how much their bodies can power up from that.
I'm not sure how detailed the story Toei and Toyotarou follow as far as what is given to them by Toriyama. But, it often feels like Toyotarou is addressing things like Zenkai boosts, and power levels as a fellow fan thinking "Hm, let me make sense of some of this".
-
@Cyan:
- Para Para Brothers
- Bra getting Vegeta to shave his moostache
- Gogeta clowning Omega Shenron
- the ending montage
That's it. That's everything of value from GT.
What were good about them? Unfunny comedy relief characters.
Whats ironic is that in Medabots they used that concept for the main antagonists and it worked because their personalities were different and actually entertaining.
-
People who like the Para Para Brothers are steadfast Dadaists with anarchist leanings
basically anyone who likes to meme around likes the Para Para Brothers
Set Art by Daily Rowlet -
Goku not finishing his opponent/prolonging his fights is pretty in-character… he only did it with Piccolo, Vegeta, Freeza and Cell. Which are most of the antagonists. Vegeta did it with Cell, Gohan did it with Cell... despite it obviously being for plot many times, at least it's tied in a way where it's made in-character. Vegeta IS proud and arrogant. Goku IS looking for a good fight. Gohan let the power get to him. The Android saga wouldn't have existed if everyone would've just listened to Bulma.
It is equal parts in-character and plot convinient. Toriyama is good with that. I value consistent characterization most, which is why I take any DB series except GT over several shounen. At least all the characters have flaws that matter and consistent motivations.
What I do dislike about the Future Trunks arc is that the forgetfulness is so overblown. That makes the fact that it's for plot TOO obvious. I'm not bothered by the power-ups, mostly Goku Black's because we're told he's getting used to his body and that allows him to find new strength. All Trunks' power-up needed was a note that the Saiyan boost did it's thing and... well, the story isn't over yet. Stuff can still be explained.
Yet despite my problems with that arc I liked it for it's highlights - none of the problems became a gamebreaker and it wasn't boring or a chore to watch.
-
The robot guy that fused with a planet was cool I guess.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Dude let Vegeta, who was personally involved in the deaths of three of his friends (and piccolo), go to get better after their fight because he wanted a good rematch
In Goku's defense, they had Dragon Balls.
-
If anything I enjoy Zamasu more for the ningen memes than his actual plan at this point.
-
The Android saga wouldn't have existed if everyone would've just listened to Bulma.
Android 16 probably would've killed Cell, if it weren't for Bulma.
-
still really fucked up that 16 was never able to be wished back
Set Art by Daily Rowlet -
Android 16 probably would've killed Cell, if it weren't for Bulma.
To be fair, Bulma thought that it would remove a possible danger. There really is a bunch of "just kill him already". Krillin destroyed the remote. You could rip the arc a new one just because of the time travel. But it's still my favorite 'cause Gohan. Gohan's journey is probably the best thing in Z.
-
A surprising amount of bullshit could've been skipped if Trunks felt like mentioning that one of the Androids was a girl.
-
This post is deleted!
-
@Cyan:
A surprising amount of bullshit could've been skipped if Trunks felt like mentioning that one of the Androids was a girl.
Ehhhh… still a chance Vegeta screws it up if they mention that these aren't the right Androids in front of 19 and 20. Gero probably reacts to that by revealing the existence of the other Androids and taunting Vegeta and Goku into letting him activate them.
-
Ah, right. They actually didn't know what the androids looked like and yeah, Vegeta would probably still let them be activated.
Now that I think the most angering thing would be if Vegeta went back to doing that. Would be the worst character derailment.
-
While ironically being in character.
-
oh character development.
Never expected Dragon Ball to hold up when I revisited it in the first place. Kind of had Bleach and Naruto on my brain, but then I was reminded that I actually care about these characters and that was the case throughout basically the whole series, not just a few arcs. Even as overly long as Buu was and never fully saw that arc.
-
The new concepts of gods destroying civilizations willy-nilly really doesn't mesh well with me. Anyway Goku is sometimes an ass to others but I don't think he would be that either to play with a guy that blew an universe in front of him.
-
I know this was discussed but was it ever actually shared?
ANyway, yes, the androids could have been mostly avoided if the cast had a slight bit more sense and wasn't a bunch of fght happy Saiyans.
The same massively applies to the Buu Saga where its entirely possible Gohan going alone might have taken care of it without Buu ever waking up. (or maybe with Tenshinhan tagging along.) He would have struggled with Dabura, sure, but most of the headaches would have been avoided. Of course, that also falls on Supreme Kai being a complete idiot and not doing his research and letting them steal Gohan's energy to get Buu half filled up in the first place and having no idea just how far the Saiyans outclassed everything….
-
Shin is lowkey one of my favorite dragonball characters because he kinda sucks at his job and has no real ability to keep up with all this stupid bullshit
him palling it up with Beerus in the latest arc has only helped this
Set Art by Daily Rowlet -
I know this was discussed but was it ever actually shared?
Yep, some pages back.
Evidently Toei was not happy that Funimation brought in the TFS crew to do those lines, hence why the TV broadcast last Saturday used a different scene where the fake movie was just a recycle of their old dub.
The same massively applies to the Buu Saga where its entirely possible Gohan going alone might have taken care of it without Buu ever waking up. (or maybe with Tenshinhan tagging along.) He would have struggled with Dabura, sure, but most of the headaches would have been avoided. Of course, that also falls on Supreme Kai being a complete idiot and not doing his research and letting them steal Gohan's energy to get Buu half filled up in the first place and having no idea just how far the Saiyans outclassed everything….
Really Buu could've been stopped later on if the Saiyans just cut out the showboating. Gotenks, Gohan, and Vegito could've went for the kill immediately, Gohan could've caught the earring or Goku could've teleported down to him, etc.
-
There are /cough extenuating circumstances in each of those cases though. Gotenks legit wasn't strong enough to beat Buu until he went SS3, and even then he's immature and inexperienced so he wastes it. Gohan is tricked by Buu twice, and lets his guard down because he's got the Idiot Ball and thinks Buu is defeated. And Vegito intentionally loses in order to extract the others from inside Buu, which actually almost makes sense.
If you get dunked on in the dream, you get dunked on in real life
-
There are /cough extenuating circumstances in each of those cases though. Gotenks legit wasn't strong enough to beat Buu until he went SS3, and even then he's immature and inexperienced so he wastes it. Gohan is tricked by Buu twice, and lets his guard down because he's got the Idiot Ball and thinks Buu is defeated. And Vegito intentionally loses in order to extract the others from inside Buu, which actually almost makes sense.
You've got me there.
I was rereading one of the volumes and I'm actually surprised on how much the anime dragged out the Vegito fight. He's only on screen for two-three chapters max.
In fact, the last Toriyama volume covers "Goku needs Vegeta to fuse" -> "Goku leaves with Uub", which is bonkers. -
Yeah, Buu saga was suuuuper padded out. The entire anime was, but due to it basically taking place over the course of a day, they didn't have any chance to add in timeskip fillers where the characters goofed off and did wacky things with side adventures, so they just sort of expanded all the fights and commentary and such.
They had similar problems on Namek where the only filler they could think to do was really stupid stuff with Bulma, really stupid stuff on Kai's planet, and really stupid stuff with Chichi… and having entire episodes of transformations or straight up recap. Had they known that arc would go so long I'd like to think they would have had more isolated filler after Vegeta's defeat.
-
There are /cough extenuating circumstances in each of those cases though. Gotenks legit wasn't strong enough to beat Buu until he went SS3, and even then he's immature and inexperienced so he wastes it. Gohan is tricked by Buu twice, and lets his guard down because he's got the Idiot Ball and thinks Buu is defeated. And Vegito intentionally loses in order to extract the others from inside Buu, which actually almost makes sense.
Makes sense from the prospective of Vegeta and Goku not wanting to murder their kids and Piccolo even with ability to wish them back.
Senseless in the fact that Buu shot the shaggy dog by blowing up the earth killing those four anyway.
Probably would've been avoided if Vegeta and Goku fused again but of course Vegeta destroyed his earring and they didn't have time for a dance (and they needed something cool for movie 12)
-
tl; dr Zamasu was right all along, huh.
The saving grace to it all in my eyes writing-wise really is that most of it aligns with the personality of the characters.
-
But without the saiyans Babiddi just had to go the cell route and absorb towns instead of the 3 assholes.
3DS FC: 0516-7666-3837
SW-4128-8032-0729
-
But without the saiyans Babiddi just had to go the cell route and absorb towns instead of the 3 assholes.
That would have taken him weeks or months instead of minutes though.
-
The safe game is always better than the fast, public game in front of hundreds of potentially super strong people
Set Art by Daily Rowlet -
Okay, I've finished the series.
The Goku Black and the Golden Freeza Arc were terrible. Far worse than anything in GT in my eyes, as I mentioned a few pages back.
But the rest (including all the filler) has been really really enjoyable! So much world and character building, and it feels like a true continuation to Z for the most part. Now I'm just excited to see Gohan return to the glorious Mystic days by the time the final tournament arrives.
Also, I'm excited for N 17 and all the other characters in the opening getting a spotlight! Super has been so focused on Goku and Vegeta, it'll be refreshing to see the side characters do stuff too!
And can we please get a new SSJ form… blue is starting to be a bit glaring on the eyes. Maybe try Rosè for a while? Pretty please?
-
Nothing will top the cancer Super 17 arc has been in GT… Nothing
-
the clown is not voiced by Shigeru Chiba
toeiiiiiiiii
-
I cringe ever time I see "King Kai Fist" just a bit harder each time.
-
Alright, so the condition was that Goku can't just give up.
I want to note that the animation has been solid for a good while now. I think 67 was the last kind of "eh" episode.
This fight wasn't as good as the two previous ones, but the Super Saiyan Blue + Kaioken combo is always awesome.
-
Its really really weird to see the guy calling Goku a careless villain getting framed as a villain, as well as Gokus continued lack of fucks getting framed heroicaly
-
I'm not sure Bergamo's entirely framed as a villain for that. Toppo certainly isn't (yet).
I think next episode might tell us how we're supposed to feel. It's all kind of a middle-ground framing right now and could go either way.
Goku's eagerness to fight has had this sinister tone to it, too. If it were to be entirely ignored, episode 77's moment would not have had the "tenseness" to it. There has been delibrate lingering on it, basically. Why do that if the story doesn't have a intention addressing it. People have been commenting how he looks like Goku Black for a reason. People wouldn't do that if the scenes wouldn't basically point it out like that.
Oh yeah, and I think the mortal level thing in the end might not be entirely power based. Last week Beerus and the Kai were saying to each other they weren't doing their jobs properly. It's also possibly an taking the average of each universe kind of thing, as well.
Depends on how it'll go.
-
I really have a hard with Gohan still seeking his dad's approval at this point in time.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
@Daz:
Its really really weird to see the guy calling Goku a careless villain getting framed as a villain, as well as Gokus continued lack of fucks getting framed heroicaly
Well the priest made it clear that Goku was no responsible for the destruction so universe 9 fighters also knows so. But is indeed ridiculous the way they frame the guy managing a deal to not get the universes destroyed.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
But with this new gods in DB world I guess Freezer is actually the right way to go.
-
I hope Toppo has a version of the Devilmite Beam just for the reaction to it not working on Goku.
-
I'm not sure Bergamo's entirely framed as a villain for that. Toppo certainly isn't (yet).
I think next episode might tell us how we're supposed to feel. It's all kind of a middle-ground framing right now and could go either way.
Goku's eagerness to fight has had this sinister tone to it, too. If it were to be entirely ignored, episode 77's moment would not have had the "tenseness" to it. There has been delibrate lingering on it, basically. Why do that if the story doesn't have a intention addressing it. People have been commenting how he looks like Goku Black for a reason. People wouldn't do that if the scenes wouldn't basically point it out like that.
Oh yeah, and I think the mortal level thing in the end might not be entirely power based. Last week Beerus and the Kai were saying to each other they weren't doing their jobs properly. It's also possibly an taking the average of each universe kind of thing, as well.
Depends on how it'll go.
Like I said last week… it's not JUST power level
-
I found myself kinda agreeing with Bergamo's speech. Sure Zeno is set to destroy anyway, but Goku is too blase about it.
-
I was thinking that one way they will get around everyone dying while also having each universe destroyed is to use the Super Dragon Balls to wish all the inhabitants of each universe to the surviving ones, or all to universe 7. This could be a way for Toei to bring back the Saiyans into Universe 7 and could easily implement new villains from other universes into no. 7.
-
Given the latest episodes, I'd really appreciate a real attempt at a dark goku saga once the Universe tournaments are over. No bs, just Goku giving in to his fighting urges to such an extent that he becomes the villain everyone needs to team up to defeat, with Vegeta and Gohan on the front line against the iconic hero of the show. Perhaps they can also get Hit on their side, only to see him defeated by a battle hungry, principleless Goku.
But I digress, i can't expect that much from DBS. I'll leave shonen deconstruction to Togashi, whenever he returns from his backache induced hiatus.
-
I definitely would believe that Goku became a villain in the interim between buy's defeat and the end of Z
Set Art by Daily Rowlet -
We already have Turles, Black, & if you want to be techinical Bardock….It'd be a bit repetitous at this point (to say nothing of dumb) to have Goku make a legit heel turn.
-
The thing is that Toriyama always saw Goku as being more selfish than righteous, and apparently he felt the Z anime (I'm talking it in general) made him too much of a hero?
-
Selfish guys don't play Janken to decide whose going to kick the villain's ass…...though there was that time he stole Roshi's sunglasses
-
The most interesting part of this is that Goku is actually a "good guy". He's just overdoing it with the fighting. I've seen people say he "deliberately" wanted to destroy the universes, but that's never the case.
So, I'm thinking what a DB-like character arc for him would be like. Keep it simple, but do something.
-
I was a bit surprised when Goku says they will have to rely on Gohan with the strategies and tactics, wasnt Piccolo supposed to be the Master Tactician among the Z fighters?
![](