Sansa was in this episode? I thought it was Gandalf. :ninja:
Game of Thrones (tv show thread)
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@Cyan:
Considering how Meereen is actually handled in the books, no, it probably won't.
Heh, it was late and I forgot the main thrust of my comment. I'm hoping that the 5+ years of crust the Meereenese Knot has developed keeps Dany from just burning it without a second thought.
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The Giant had more screen time than the S. Kid.
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! Although I wanted to punch Sansa in the back of the head. She had so many complaints but didn't offer any actual input. And she should have told Jon reinforcements were coming. They could have waited like 10 more minutes!
! Yeah… they REALLY pushed the last minute "tide changing surprise" even though it made little sense when you think that all the casualties could have been avoided in the first place if she would've told them from the beginning.
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! Yeah… they REALLY pushed the last minute "tide changing surprise" even though it made little sense when you think that all the casualties could have been avoided in the first place if she would've told them from the beginning.
! I doubt she knew that they were coming for certain at that point, but she could have at least mentioned that she wrote the letter and to wait until they replied. I don't understand the secrecy.
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The Giant had more screen time than the S. Kid.
lol so true. wun wun would probably still have more screentime even if we combined all of rickon's past seasons appearances.
i know that he's teenager and im being too harsh on him when i say this, but they could've atleast made him go out like a man. like if he for example told ramsay to that he won't play his game and gave him a nice "fuck you" then died, i would've alot more respect for his character. -
lol so true. wun wun would probably still have more screentime even if we combined all of rickon's past seasons appearances.
i know that he's teenager and im being too harsh on him when i say this, but they could've atleast made him go out like a man. like if he for example told ramsay to that he won't play his game and gave him a nice "fuck you" then died, i would've alot more respect for his character.Just lazy writing, the kids from The Wire were far, I emphasis on the word 'far' better than Rickon. (To be honest, they're more fleshed out and developed that a majority of on-going TV show characters). I cant deny that I felt more sorry for the Giant than the kid.
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Wun Wun was the true champion of this battle. Without him, Ramsay would've still been holed up in Winterfell and Jon would've had to waste alot of his soldiers lifes in a seige.
What was so sad about his death is that he's the last of his kind, no more giants now.yeah,that's what upsets me too.i think the wildlings did say something like they were the last of their kind for their respective tribes,and so seeing the giant act like a tank really worried me.i am not sure about him being the only giant though.hopefully there are others beside him
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Number of lines Wun wun had this season: Wun
Number of lines Rickon had this season: 0 -
Better to take the city with minimal damages, no? After all, these were some very cocky slavers.
It wasn't their city, they're from Volantis, Astapor, and Yunkai.
Fucking up Mereen and it's population of mostly slaves to make a point and crush the progress and dissent Dany introduced into their cultural region sounds pretty much right.You and I both know the Harpies were just there to tie up that subplot and give the Dothraki something to do.
I also know what I'm saying is plausible and logical. It was a little awkward perhaps, but not extremely so.
The Harpies as funded insurgents of the other cities as I said was going to be a dead issue after this episode anyway. So for us viewers we got a little satisfaction in seeing some of them get flattened by a newly muscular Dany army. Even if it was just a couple gate openers it was a nice little symbol of that plot line being washed away.Now to have it better written? I would have shown them attacking the gatekeepers and cockily and easily opening the gates, chattering about maybe the other cities sending ground forces in soon and that they should be there any moment. Then around the corner come the Dothraki instead lol.
Fleeing on foot, without supplies, into the surrounding desert. Yep.
Mereen isn't surrounded by literal desert like Qarth. We've seen the countryside before and know there are farmers and shepherds out there, along with plenty of grass (remember the episodes establishing that Drago was getting out of control). There is some craggy badland around it yeah, but clearly also livable rural land too. Close enough that the people living there come to Mereen to appeal to the rulers if they need to.
It's very possible that I'm just annoyed because the corresponding event in the books is portrayed as complex, multifaceted, and yet unresolved. Generally not at all the sort of thing that could be solved just by Daenerys swooping in.
I agree that the lead up to the siege felt kind of rushed in the show yes. Like they spent so much time with Tyrion's plans, only to reverse it out of the blue. Even just a longer build up of the betrayal, like suspense suggesting something wasn't quite right would have been nice.
But at the same time, the complaints then should go toward the last episode. Not what happened in this one.
Also I have to question if you really think Martin is building her up to be some super peaceful person? Like even in the books?
She's still planning on invading Westoros right? Do you think he's going to write that as a series of negotiations?–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Sansa's scene when she complaining to Jon was dumb, she was arguing over nothing and sounded very annoying.
Uh…she was arguing correctly that they didn't have enough guys. Like super correctly.
She didn't even tell him that she sent for Bailish, which could've actually made Jon reconsider going for Winterfell and wait for him to come.
I think it was clear she didn't actually have any idea if her raven would bear fruit.
Remember she and Brienne sent him packing and trash talked him in that other episode. So Sansa probably thought it was very unlikely. Remember she sent the raven after their whole campaigning trip ended crappily with few recruits. It was in of itself an act of desperation. -
@Monkey:
Uh…she was arguing correctly that they didn't have enough guys. Like super correctly.
I think it was clear she didn't actually have any idea if her raven would bear fruit.
Remember she and Brienne sent him packing and trash talked him in that other episode. So Sansa probably thought it was very unlikely. Remember she sent the raven after their whole campaigning trip ended crappily with few recruits. It was in of itself an act of desperation.Though I am curious what her objective was with telling Jon that he did not enough troops. Yeah it was clear that they were undermanned and both stark kids were aware of that, but I am wondering what she had hoped to accomplish by telling him that regardless. If she brought up Baelish/Vale and suggested that they wait and see if anything would bear fruit from it, they PROBABLY could have saved a ton more Wildling/Mormont lives, but i suppose it was too late anyway since they already confronted Ramses at that point (though they probably could have held off from that until seeing if they got word from Baelish).
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Hardly cared about the death scene since he was barely a character. S6 is so mediocre at the moment but not as ridiculously awful as the 5th season.
No season has been ridiculously awful.
Yeah sorry but we're trying some housecleaning in this thread away from the TLC Club of Paul Bunyan style tall tale complaints about how your hate for whatever part of the show is as big as ten lakes and as tall as sixteen great oaks.
So the whole "I was moreeee dissatisfiedddd" rat race thing is done.We're gonna try and talk about it normally. Which is I think is pretty fair and reasonable!
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No one else got really mad at Sansa for being a total bitch to Jon? God, she's been a bitch for a long while, but that was her lowest. How about telling help was on it's way huh?
Jon was wrong. As proven by how things went. Including not listening to her advice at being manipulated emotionally.
It's more open but I think (as I said) that they made it clear that she had possibly burned her bridges with Little Finger. Recall they already met up and she told him to fuck off.
And that she only sent the Raven after their round of recruiting allies came up really short.
Put the plot information together and its a picture of the raven being a desperate thing unlikely to bear fruit in Sansa's mind.
And also that she clearly didn't receive word to the affirmative or yeah she would have mentioned it.
Could have been smoother written definitely (add a scene of her at the camp hearing hooves…but that would have broken most of the surprise for us), but again given info we were shown this is the logical conclusion.
That it wasn't like ordered something on Amazon and knew it would arrive.We also didn't see Littlefinger talking really with anyone in the aftermath, so those scenes will be in the next episode probably. Wherein we'll probably get more info on how that went down exactly.
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It being stupid was the fucking point.
Doesn't prevent me from not liking this particular action.
Well, thanks to the stupid decisions of both Jon and Sansa they have Winterfell now. I would still sit outside the castle, trying to besiege it :/
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Though I am curious what her objective was with telling Jon that he did not enough troops.
I think her objective was telling him…that he didn't have enough troops.
Something that like multiple people had said and agreed about including Jon.Yeah it was clear that they were undermanned and both stark kids were aware of that, but I am wondering what she had hoped to accomplish by telling him that regardless.
To not attack now. To keep trying to find allies.
If she brought up Baelish/Vale and suggested that they wait and see if anything would bear fruit from it, they PROBABLY could have saved a ton more Wildling/Mormont lives, but i suppose it was too late anyway since they already confronted Ramses at that point (though they probably could have held off from that until seeing if they got word from Baelish).
If she herself was doubting that raven would work, do you really think Jon would have halted his attack on hearing about it?
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Doesn't prevent me from not liking this particular action.
Then blame Jon. The character in the story.
Well, thanks to the stupid decisions of both Jon and Sansa they have Winterfell now. I would still sit outside the castle, trying to besiege it :/
What did Sansa do that was stupid?
And uh what? Why would Ramsay stay in Winterfell and not come out and attack them…like he did.
A siege only works when the defender has a reason to turtle up in the first place.
If they have a battlefield advantage then they're just going to come and attack you.
Not to mention Jon's forces had no siege weapons, the giant was about as close as that got.
All that and time was a big issue for Jon, doing this as fast as possible so they could settle in and prepare for the White Walkers. That was the reason he was rushed about it all. Sieges can take a loooooong time. Especially when you aren't even equipped for one. -
@Monkey:
It wasn't their city, they're from Volantis, Astapor, and Yunkai.
Fucking up Mereen and it's population of mostly slaves to make a point and crush the progress and dissent Dany introduced into their cultural region sounds pretty much right.Astapor, Yunkai, and Meereen have strong cultural ties, with Meereen being arguably the most culturally significant of the three. While symbolically crushing Dany's movement makes some sense, there's certainly an argument to be made for trying to keep the city relatively intact. I daresay the Harpies they're supporting would want to rule a city that isn't in ruins.
Now to have it better written? I would have shown them attacking the gatekeepers and cockily and easily opening the gates, chattering about maybe the other cities sending ground forces in soon and that they should be there any moment. Then around the corner come the Dothraki instead lol.
That sounds a lot better. There was certainly time from the big featured battle that could have been shaved off to make that scene, and some of the other Meereen ones like Theon and Yara suddenly showing up, flow a bit more smoothly with better context.
Mereen isn't surrounded by literal desert like Qarth. We've seen the countryside before and know there are farmers and shepherds out there, along with plenty of grass (remember the episodes establishing that Drago was getting out of control). There is some craggy badland around it yeah, but clearly also livable rural land too. Close enough that the people living there come to Mereen to appeal to the rulers if they need to.
Without established ground forces and no mention of any food shortage, fleeing to the immediate countryside could make sense.
I agree that the lead up to the siege felt kind of rushed in the show yes. Like they spent so much time with Tyrion's plans, only to reverse it out of the blue. Even just a longer build up of the betrayal, like suspense suggesting something wasn't quite right would have been nice.
It's a bit of a consequence of delaying this invasion. In the books, Hizdahr's (Dany's husband from last season) loyalties are very much in question and there are additional wrinkles with some of Dany's mercenary companies. I think the only real consequences of Tyrion's negotiations temporarily succeeding here were making him look somewhat inexperienced and giving Varys a chance to leave peacefully. Even those could have been accomplished during a longer siege.
But at the same time, the complaints then should go toward the last episode. Not what happened in this one.
Also I have to question if you really think Martin is building her up to be some super peaceful person? Like even in the books?
She's still planning on invading Westoros right? Do you think he's going to write that as a series of negotiations?
Not at all. Dany is very much a conqueror but also an inexperienced ruler, which is why seeing her struggle with the management of a "liberated" city whose inhabitants mostly supported her was very much appreciated. Between Jon, Dany, and Cersei, the difficulties of ruling and leadership were very much a theme of the last season. It just feels like Dany has learned very little from her recent experiences and the writers have squandered the opportunities for real character growth.Hopefully the discussion with Tyrion hinted in the next episode can salvage some of that.
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This might sound crazy, but in the 75 minute finale next week, there might be a Jon/Sansa/Littlefinger scene that will clear everything up.
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I'm curious if Mel will survive this season. I'd put my money on "no".
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@Monkey:
Then blame Jon. The character in the story.
News flash, I blamed him. Who should I blame otherwise?
What did Sansa do that was stupid?
And uh what? Why would Ramsay stay in Winterfell and not come out and attack them…like he did.
A siege only works when the defender has a reason to turtle up in the first place.
If they have a battlefield advantage then they're just going to come and attack you.
Not to mention Jon's forces had no siege weapons, the giant was about as close as that got.
All that and time was a big issue for Jon, doing this as fast as possible so they could settle in and prepare for the White Walkers. That was the reason he was rushed about it all. Sieges can take a loooooong time. Especially when you aren't even equipped for one.If Sansa had told Jon about Littlefinger he would have waited for them to have better odds against Ramsay. Making Ramsay more cautious and force him to retreat into the castle where he is safe and can wait for reinforcements.
Jon's decision to strike lead to the total destruction of Ramsays cavalry through his own arrows and let his whole army vulnerable far away from the castle. Ready to be overrun by the Arryn knights. Without Jon's charge the battle would have been more even or they would've just exchanged arrows when Sansa and lil'f arrived. Forcing Ramsay to retreat for now too (or not, maybe he'd still won). -
Rickon: characterless prop in books, characterless prop in show
He was better off staying on Unicorn Cannibal Island.
@Monkey:
Remember she and Brienne sent him packing and trash talked him in that other episode. So Sansa probably thought it was very unlikely. Remember she sent the raven after their whole campaigning trip ended crappily with few recruits. It was in of itself an act of desperation.
This is true, Sansa doesn't know the full depths of Littlefinger's Catelyn Fetish and what he'll do in its name.
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I hope Danny didn't burn everybody. I wonder why did they put the Danny/Asha scene this chapter instead of the next, wasn't this one the super long one?
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Astapor, Yunkai, and Meereen have strong cultural ties,
Of course. But Mereen has become infected in their eyes with severe deviations from that culture. And the main population of the city they don't give two fucks about outside of dollar signs, literal human chattel. And common born moreover. These are aristocratic societies in the highest sense, when you say they have ties to each-other that means the nobility has ties to the nobility….not the literal city and vast majority of the population. Terrorizing the city and punishing it = terrorizing the former slaves who populate it and have been allowed to fully participate in it, AND to terrorize all the other slaves in their own cities.
Cities can be rebuilt.
And so can aristocratic slave cultures....through campaigns of terror and subjugation.Without established ground forces and no mention of any food shortage, fleeing to the immediate countryside could make sense.
Food shortages were mentioned? If so were they part of the pre-Tyrion order of things? Because it was clearly established that the city was humming along nicely under his stewardship (until the attack of course).
Regardless fleeing to the countryside makes sense when the city is being mortared to hell with flaming death. That wasn't really a siege we were witnessing there, the fleet had full-scale range and impunity on attacking the city (even hitting the top parts of the pyramid!). They couldn't exactly enter it without a landing (sure to come judging by the Harpies). But they could destroy it.
Staying in the city as it was isn't the smart choice necessarily.It's a bit of a consequence of delaying this invasion. In the books, Hizdahr's (Dany's husband from last season) loyalties are very much in question and there are additional wrinkles with some of Dany's mercenary companies. I think the only real consequences of Tyrion's negotiations temporarily succeeding here were making him look somewhat inexperienced and giving Varys a chance to leave peacefully.
We were shown an established and successful energy to the city before the attack, suggesting that Tyrion was providing a nice Zhou Enlai managerial expertise to basic domestic crap that Dany (Mao Zedong in this comparison) knows nothing about. He was shown to be competent for the most part.
The place where that came into question was regarding just how entrenched in the local ways the aristocracy was, which yeah makes sense given Tyrion being totally unfamiliar with the area and its ways.
Overall though he was at least established as providing for things Dany lacks.
The speed of "Oh look Tyrion made the city run nicely" and "Oh now they're attacking" was just too quick. What they needed a little more of was showing just stuff like the other cities ceasing trade or contact suddenly, and maybe Tyrion being in denial about what that meant like "But the deal is so logical! No way would they break it.".
Just more transitional plot beams and gears.Even those could have been accomplished during a longer siege.
Again it wasn't really a siege, and given he left by boat how exactly could Varys have left during that?
Not at all. Dany is very much a conqueror but also an inexperienced ruler, which is why seeing her struggle with the management of a "liberated" city whose inhabitants mostly supported her was very much appreciated. Between Jon, Dany, and Cersei, the difficulties of ruling and leadership were very much a theme of the last season. It just feels like Dany has learned very little from her recent experiences and the writers have squandered the opportunities for real character growth.
She's acquired and gained trust in a guy who can handle the technocratic banal side of things.
Her entourage is as much part of her as anything, that's again…realistic. Conquestive rulers becoming perfect jack of all trades? Come on. They learn to have the right people working for them....or they don't and suck.
I'm really confused by what you and lots of the others (TLC especially lol), are even frustrated about?
Its like with Dany and Dany alone you have this expectation...of her becoming like...the perfect ruler. And complain that she is overall a conquerer and charisma type person and becoming more of one.
And then spend the rest of your time complaining that she is too perfect??What the hell do you guys want?
Dany is a charismatic military ruler. She is the very basic normal kind seen in medieval times...and also in the series. She (like rulers do) is surrounded by various voices and people who are specialized at certain things. She is getting better and better at conquest, and has gained Tyrion and Varys (well we'll see about him?).
She's become a pretty well oiled machine.
The aristocracy ending up unchangeable is totally realistic and expectable. You can't literally negotiate yourself out of everything there is. Even in modern times.
Ending a history of extreme entrenched privilege was a super tough thing. She learned lots in the process of trying, failing at the end of trying doesn't mean none of that means anything.
Sometimes it will come down to violence, and she had gained enough power by that point to respond effectively to that.
She has also gained greater patience and calm. Look at the whole scene with the Greyjoys, she's even starting to come around to the idea that her father was a psychopath.Hopefully the discussion with Tyrion hinted in the next episode can salvage some of that.
And what about the scenes with Tyrion in THIS episode? Yes he was embarrassed and looking kind of bad initially, but he was back on his feet just fine during the stand off with the three aristocrats. And then was clearly trusted and given his degree of authority by Dany during the Greyjoy negotiation scene.
As I said, he did effectively get the city running again. He just couldn't quash the ultra-conservative nature of the Yunkai and Astapor aristocracy(and I guess Yolantis, though I think they're slave merchants rather than a slave society). And he did a darn good job trying to anyway.
He's obviously still deeply trusted, and deeply important to her.
Hell try and imagine the Greyjoy talks without him, for starters she wouldn't have known jack shit about the Iron Islands and what they do and who they are. Like MAYBE she'd have heard some stuff from Visyrs or Mormont? Maybe? But not on the high geopolitical level that Tyrion clearly coached her on.
His importance and authority was already established.–- Update From New Post Merge ---
News flash, I blamed him. Who should I blame otherwise?
The writers.
If Sansa had told Jon about Littlefinger he would have waited for them to have better odds against Ramsay. Making Ramsay more cautious and force him to retreat into the castle where he is safe and can wait for reinforcements.
You're missing my other response where I talk about Sansa and the raven. So this is a nonstarter point until then.
Jon's decision to strike lead to the total destruction of Ramsays cavalry through his own arrows and let his whole army vulnerable far away from the castle.
Also the destruction of his own cavalry.
Followed by the destruction of his infantry and archers in a deliberate strategy on Ramsay's part, including utilizing the pile of dead cavalry.Nothing, absolutely nothing was left vulnerable in that attack. Not Ramsay, not Winterfell, not his infantry.
Do you know why?
Because something is only vulnerable when it is threatened by something. And Jon has no other troops to take advantage to any of those "vulnerabilities". None of that was strategic choice. The entire battle plan was almost immediately destroyed to begin with because Ramsay emotionally shook Jon and caused his whole army to charge by accident headlong. And you're going to attribute intent to non-existent vulnerability of Ramsay and Winterfell?
Big ol nope on that one.Ready to be overrun by the Arryn knights.
Brilliant strategy of Jon to rely on an army he had absolutely no idea was coming whatsoever.
Do you not know what strategy is? It's completely impossible to give Jon credit for that, period.Without Jon's charge the battle would have been more even or they would've just exchanged arrows when Sansa and lil'f arrived.
So if Jon had listened to Sansa about how tricky and manipulative Ramsay was his strategy might have worked better…once again based largely on an army arriving that he had absolutely no idea existed? Exchanging arrows in a battle of attrition when you have way less people is a really terrible idea too btw.
Welp, you've utterly failed to show Jon was right about anything at all. Except maybe his perceived need for haste in trying.
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@Monkey:
You're missing my other response where I talk about Sansa and the raven. So this is a nonstarter point until then.
Yeah could be. The writers know.
Nothing, absolutely nothing was left vulnerable in that attack. Not Ramsay, not Winterfell, not his infantry.
The actions of Jon let the Ramsay army vulnerable on the battlefield. And both Ramsay and Jon didn't know anything about Sansa's reinforcements. That's a fact and that is all what I'm saying. So the charge was stupid.
Do you know why?
Because something is only vulnerable when it is threatened by something. And Jon has no other troops to take advantage to any of those "vulnerabilities". None of that was strategic choice. The entire battle plan was almost immediately destroyed to begin with because Ramsay emotionally shook Jon and caused his whole army to charge by accident headlong.The point I made. The stupid decision. And?
And you're going to attribute intent to non-existent vulnerability of Ramsay and Winterfell?
Why do you say that. I said it was stupid.
Big ol nope on that one.
Brilliant strategy of Jon to rely on an army he had absolutely no idea was coming whatsoever.
Do you not know what strategy is? It's completely impossible to give Jon credit for that, period.Did you read my post? I said it was stupid.
Welp, you've utterly failed to show Jon was right about anything at all. Except maybe his perceived need for haste in trying.
I never said he was right @_@
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Sophie Turner has consistently dowsed whatever sweet, sweet revenge for Sansa she received with her bad acting. Ramsay's death had the perfect staging in the script, yet Turner's terrible acting managed to go and drain any satisfaction from the scene. She should have studied Ricardo Montalbán in preparation for that scene.
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@Monkey:
Of course. But Mereen has become infected in their eyes with severe deviations from that culture. And the main population of the city they don't give two fucks about outside of dollar signs, literal human chattel. And common born moreover. These are aristocratic societies in the highest sense, when you say they have ties to each-other that means the nobility has ties to the nobility….not the literal city and vast majority of the population. Terrorizing the city and punishing it = terrorizing the former slaves who populate it and have been allowed to fully participate in it, AND to terrorize all the other slaves in their own cities.
Cities can be rebuilt.
And so can aristocratic slave cultures....through campaigns of terror and subjugation.I totally agree with most of this. I just think the excessive destruction of their symbols of shared cultural heritage is dumb when they already think they've won.
Food shortages were mentioned? If so were they part of the pre-Tyrion order of things? Because it was clearly established that the city was humming along nicely under his stewardship (until the attack of course).
Regardless fleeing to the countryside makes sense when the city is being mortared to hell with flaming death. That wasn't really a siege we were witnessing there, the fleet had full-scale range and impunity on attacking the city (even hitting the top parts of the pyramid!). They couldn't exactly enter it without a landing (sure to come judging by the Harpies). But they could destroy it.
Staying in the city as it was isn't the smart choice necessarily.Yes, I'm conceding the point. I sometimes forget which things are skipped over in the show, and I'm fairly certain food shortages were one of those things, and that the countryside was relatively untouched.
We were shown an established and successful energy to the city before the attack, suggesting that Tyrion was providing a nice Zhou Enlai managerial expertise to basic domestic crap that Dany (Mao Zedong in this comparison) knows nothing about. He was shown to be competent for the most part.
The place where that came into question was regarding just how entrenched in the local ways the aristocracy was, which yeah makes sense given Tyrion being totally unfamiliar with the area and its ways.
Overall though he was at least established as providing for things Dany lacks.
The speed of "Oh look Tyrion made the city run nicely" and "Oh now they're attacking" was just too quick. What they needed a little more of was showing just stuff like the other cities ceasing trade or contact suddenly, and maybe Tyrion being in denial about what that meant like "But the deal is so logical! No way would they break it.".
Just more transitional plot beams and gears.Right, Tyrion is an excellent steward but fairly inexperienced in the cultural nuances of Slaver's Bay.
Again it wasn't really a siege, and given he left by boat how exactly could Varys have left during that?
Varys is a sneaky bastard. He probably has one of those teleportation doohickeys Littlefinger sometimes uses.
She's acquired and gained trust in a guy who can handle the technocratic banal side of things.
Her entourage is as much part of her as anything, that's again…realistic. Conquestive rulers becoming perfect jack of all trades? Come on. They learn to have the right people working for them....or they don't and suck.
I'm really confused by what you and lots of the others (TLC especially lol), are even frustrated about?
Its like with Dany and Dany alone you have this expectation...of her becoming like...the perfect ruler. And complain that she is overall a conquerer and charisma type person and becoming more of one.
And then spend the rest of your time complaining that she is too perfect??Being a conqueror and relying on advisors for help ruling is fine. The thing is, that's not what's really expected of a heroine, which is how Daenerys is consistently presented. The show consistently flips back to her nearly unbroken string of victories as a way to lighten the mood and keep the audience's hopes up. If Daenerys is really someone we should be rooting for and someone who can effectively rule, we should see real character growth and a bit of temperance or she's just another Robert. This isn't exactly the time for that, no, but her victory in this episode feels far too similar to the ones she's had in the past.
What the hell do you guys want?
Dany is a charismatic military ruler. She is the very basic normal kind seen in medieval times…and also in the series. She (like rulers do) is surrounded by various voices and people who are specialized at certain things. She is getting better and better at conquest, and has gained Tyrion and Varys (well we'll see about him?).
She's become a pretty well oiled machine.
The aristocracy ending up unchangeable is totally realistic and expectable. You can't literally negotiate yourself out of everything there is. Even in modern times.Again, there are appropriate times for violence and this was one of them. The well-oiled machine you speak of, however, boils down to "isolate foolish leaders, murder them while staring and looking queenly, and take control of their forces." In a vacuum this is fine, but she's done it so many times it's become tiresome. Even if the execution in each specific instance makes sense, the fact that so many idiots have underestimated her for 5 seasons is just plain bad writing.
Ending a history of extreme entrenched privilege was a super tough thing. She learned lots in the process of trying, failing at the end of trying doesn't mean none of that means anything.
Sometimes it will come down to violence, and she had gained enough power by that point to respond effectively to that.
She has also gained greater patience and calm. Look at the whole scene with the Greyjoys, she's even starting to come around to the idea that her father was a psychopath.That's the thing, all her failures have been just temporary setbacks. When other characters screw up they get killed or imprisoned or sidelined, but Dany typically resolves things in her favor by the end of the season. It's pretty fitting that she's made an alliance with the Greyjoys: What is Dany may never die, but rises again harder and stronger.
There are a few hints of character growth in this episode, like hesitating at Tyrion's comparisons to her father or negotiating an alliance with Yara, but for the most part her character has been quite static this season.
And what about the scenes with Tyrion in THIS episode? Yes he was embarrassed and looking kind of bad initially, but he was back on his feet just fine during the stand off with the three aristocrats. And then was clearly trusted and given his degree of authority by Dany during the Greyjoy negotiation scene.
As I said, he did effectively get the city running again. He just couldn't quash the ultra-conservative nature of the Yunkai and Astapor aristocracy(and I guess Yolantis, though I think they're slave merchants rather than a slave society). And he did a darn good job trying to anyway.
He's obviously still deeply trusted, and deeply important to her.
Hell try and imagine the Greyjoy talks without him, for starters she wouldn't have known jack shit about the Iron Islands and what they do and who they are. Like MAYBE she'd have heard some stuff from Visyrs or Mormont? Maybe? But not on the high geopolitical level that Tyrion clearly coached her on.
His importance and authority was already established.Tyrion's definitely important and has proved his use to her, but Dany's never shown an aversion to utilize her advisors.
I think you're missing my point though. Tyrion in the preview seems to be explaining some of the complexity of the situation in Westeros and possibly awakening Dany to the naivety of her black-and-white morality outlook. That's something that's way overdue and really should have happened earlier in Meereen.
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The actions of Jon let the Ramsay army vulnerable on the battlefield.
Not strategically no. Which is the whole point. Not even tactically.
I never said he was right @_@
Weren't you saying that Sansa wasn't in the right in her complaints to him?
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I totally agree with most of this. I just think the excessive destruction of their symbols of shared cultural heritage is dumb when they already think they've won.
Again its not theirs. The cities are linked but different enough that the different aristocrats have different names (Wise Masters etc). All the reasons I already gave plus some distance given it was a sister city and not directly their own means its really not stupid at all. And yeah again things like that can be rebuilt. Even easier with unpaid labor.
Being a conqueror and relying on advisors for help ruling is fine. The thing is, that's not what's really expected of a heroine, which is how Daenerys is consistently presented.
She's presented as a hero? Protagonist yes. Sympathetic yes. Generally agreeable morally speaking sure. But hero? No.
The show consistently flips back to her nearly unbroken string of victories as a way to lighten the mood and keep the audience's hopes up.
Aside from the three or so seasons of quagmire occupation? Seriously though what?
If there's a lighter feel from her escapades its that its kind of fun to see someone rise all the way from crap to Alexandra the Great. And the general sense of satisfaction of seeing something big get built.
Not because she's friggin' Superman.If Daenerys is really someone we should be rooting for and someone who can effectively rule, we should see real character growth and a bit of temperance or she's just another Robert.
lol she's wayyyy ahead of Robb in terms of all of that.
Again, there are appropriate times for violence and this was one of them. The well-oiled machine you speak of, however, boils down to "isolate foolish leaders, murder them while staring and looking queenly, and take control of their forces."
She has strong armies, is a natural born leader and the Luffy sense, has some talented folks who compliment and contrast with that, and is ever more confident at the top in terms of talking political shop.
….what more do you want??In a vacuum this is fine, but she's done it so many times it's become tiresome. Even if the execution in each specific instance makes sense, the fact that so many idiots have underestimated her for 5 seasons is just plain bad writing.
Only if you've developed a random and totally imagined sense that she's supposed to be King Arthur. Rather than another player in the game.
That's the thing, all her failures have been just temporary setbacks. When other characters screw up they get killed or imprisoned or sidelined,
Both those things have happened to her. In fact the entire Slaver's Bay quagmire is the very definition of sidelined. She was on her way to Westoros and got caught up in untangling a mess for like three fuckin' seasons lol. With constant losses and setbacks.
Also she's a protagonist with a whole wing of the plot around her. She isn't going to be killed any time soon.but Dany typically resolves things in her favor by the end of the season. It's pretty fitting that she's made an alliance with the Greyjoys: What is Dany may never die, but rises again harder and stronger.
There are a few hints of character growth in this episode, like hesitating at Tyrion's comparisons to her father or negotiating an alliance with Yara, but for the most part her character has been quite static this season.
Tyrion's definitely important and has proved his use to her, but Dany's never shown an aversion to utilize her advisors.
She never really had a proper one. She's had a couple military toughs, and an interpreter.
She's gotten and taken advice, but its felt sort of awkward and improvised until Tyrion.
There's something much more natural about the current set up. Which says as much about him as it does her. He's also found a very good place to fit in.
I think you're missing my point though. Tyrion in the preview seems to be explaining some of the complexity of the situation in Westeros and possibly awakening Dany to the naivety of her black-and-white morality outlook. That's something that's way overdue and really should have happened earlier in Meereen.I think you're missing my point though. Tyrion in the preview seems to be explaining some of the complexity of the situation in Westeros and possibly awakening Dany to the naivety of her black-and-white morality outlook. That's something that's way overdue and really should have happened earlier in Meereen.
The only naive thing about it is how possible or not possible it is to address such moral things.
Slavery is straight evil no matter how you cut it. As is piracy as the Iron Born practice it.
The morality isn't the naive part.
The naive part is things like "I will be welcomed because everyone loves my dynasty", or "solving moral issues will be simple!".
She definitely has learned the latter is wrong by now, and the former she's starting to develop on and frankly will likely be the actual substance of what Tyrion's saying.–- Update From New Post Merge ---
@Yuugi's:
Sophie Turner has consistently dowsed whatever sweet, sweet revenge for Sansa she received with her bad acting. Ramsay's death had the perfect staging in the script, yet Turner's terrible acting managed to go and drain any satisfaction from the scene. She should have studied Ricardo Montalbán in preparation for that scene.
ahaha, the very definition of try-hard whining.
It wasn't exactly amazing or anything, but jesus christ, pretending you actually have this ocean to squeeze from that sponge. Come on. -
Dany and Yarasha gonna go on a sismance road trip to conquer/destroy Westeros.
Of course King's Landing will probably be a smoldering ruin at that point and our third main character is going to be dedicating most of his effort to fighting off Ice Satan, but they'll try darnit.
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@Monkey:
Aside from the three or so seasons of quagmire occupation? Seriously though what?
If there's a lighter feel from her escapades its that its kind of fun to see someone rise all the way from crap to Alexandra the Great. And the general sense of satisfaction of seeing something big get built.
Not because she's friggin' Superman.First off, season and a half of occupation. This season doesn't count because she was off being Genghis Khan. And the uncertainty she faced in that time was beneficial in expanding her character.
She was a big scary conqueror back in seasons 3 and 4. The honeymoon's over. At the very least give her something to win without just decapitating the leadership. Her conquest of Meereen was progress in that it involved actual military strategy, but it would be really nice to see her forces win an actually hard-fought battle like the type we've seen in Westeros. The only real casualties she's taken since Qarth have been from the Harpies.
lol she's wayyyy ahead of Robb in terms of all of that.
Robert, not Robb. The fat king who made a better conqueror than ruler and idled his time away on women and wine while leaving the Seven Kingdoms to his dubious advisors.
She has strong armies, is a natural born leader and the Luffy sense, has some talented folks who compliment and contrast with that, and is ever more confident at the top in terms of talking political shop.
….what more do you want??I have problems with her personality but this particular issue is with her actions and the writing that creates them. Daenerys is consistently put in soft situations that allow her to expand her forces and consolidate power simply by eliminating a few inept opponents. That's bad writing.
Only if you've developed a random and totally imagined sense that she's supposed to be King Arthur. Rather than another player in the game.
I want her to be a regular player. The show keeps portraying her as some heroic monarch who always overcomes minor setbacks and brings peace to the savage and oppressed minorities.
Both those things have happened to her. In fact the entire Slaver's Bay quagmire is the very definition of sidelined. She was on her way to Westoros and got caught up in untangling a mess for like three fuckin' seasons lol. With constant losses and setbacks.
Also she's a protagonist with a whole wing of the plot around her. She isn't going to be killed any time soon.Sidelined as in left in a position without power, like Cersei or Sansa. Daenerys just got distracted but only ever lacked power for three or so episodes. No one's expecting her to die any time soon, but she's only had one real challenge (the Harpy insurgency) and basically bailed out of it to get a couple dozens of thousands more troops while leaving her subjects to sweat it out.
The only naive thing about it is how possible or not possible it is to address such moral things.
Slavery is straight evil no matter how you cut it. As is piracy as the Iron Born practice it.Absolutely. I don't think she's had to reaffirm that belief though or address it in any real world context though.
I don't remember if this has been brought up in the show, but in the books a lot of the slaves she freed in Meereen end up actually worse off than before, and some even sell themselves back into slavery to others. Slavery is absolutely awful but a character needs to face those kind of unfortunate realities when attempting to eliminate that system.
The morality isn't the naive part.
The naive part is things like "I will be welcomed because everyone loves my dynasty", or "solving moral issues will be simple!".
She definitely has learned the latter is wrong by now, and the former she's starting to develop on and frankly will likely be the actual substance of what Tyrion's saying.This is more what I was leaning in to. Daenerys still isn't really clear on how awful her father was and she still considers the entire current royal family as well of all of the major houses on the side of Robert's Rebellion (Stark, Lannister, Baratheon, Arryn, and Tully) to be evil. Most of them obviously aren't evil and it's mostly their children in power now anyway, so I'm looking forward to her realization that most of those opposing her in Westeros aren't some slimy douchebags like the idiots she's been beating up on.
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@Monkey:
No season has been ridiculously awful.
Yeah sorry but we're trying some housecleaning in this thread away from the TLC Club of Paul Bunyan style tall tale complaints about how your hate for whatever part of the show is as big as ten lakes and as tall as sixteen great oaks.
So the whole "I was moreeee dissatisfiedddd" rat race thing is done.We're gonna try and talk about it normally. Which is I think is pretty fair and reasonable!
You believe that the series has been consistently good for each season? GOT is by far one of HBO worst shows, probably even worse than True Detective S2.
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it really isn't as bad as true detective 2, that show was horrible. the writing and the characters were all over the place and by the end nothing really was resolved.
game of thrones has had it's ups and downs but it's ups really out weights the downs by alot i think. sure dorne is stupid, arya's arc may have been a bit underwhelming to some people (i personally don't think so), and dany may seem like a very lucky person or a mary stu.
but you still have other things in there that were really good. bran's arc, jon snow's arc, and kings landing's arc were very satisfying imo and done very well.
the arcs that are being set up for next season don't seem to be very shaby aswell. the hound and the brotherhood, the whitewalkers war, and dany finally arriving to king's landing all seem like they're gonna be very exciting.can you be more specific with what exactly is bothering you with game of thrones?
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The problem is it's hard to discuss a lot of series when people's opinions seem to generally fall under either 'Worst/Best thing ever!' instead of 'It has pros and cons.'
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Finally caught up.
I really don't get it. Is it cause this show is so popular that people freak out over the slightest drop of quality? Like, I'm not saying this show has been flawless, but I've been on the back of good shows as they descend into the pit of pure and utter shit. It's called watching the entirety of Dexter. This hasn't even touched that descent into shit.
With the exception of Dorne and maybe some book differences (which doesn't even apply to every viewer), I barely see how this show is "worst thing HBO has to offer".
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It's called watching the entirety of Dexter.
Jon, Dany, and Tyrion all run to Skagos after the defeat of the Night's King and now eek out a miserable existence as lumberjacks.
The last shot is a bearded Dany drinking beer.
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I've been pretty critical of the show but even I think the pros generally outweigh the cons.
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@Cyan:
Dany and Yarasha gonna go on a sismance road trip to conquer/destroy Westeros.
Screw the sismance. I'm ready for a double matriarchy!
@Cyan:
Jon, Dany, and Tyrion all run to Skagos after the defeat of the Night's King and now seek out a miserable existence as lumberjacks.
The last shot is a bearded Dany drinking beer.
See, that ending I'd be more okay with than Dexter's!
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I've always wondered if TLC's overly critical
analysiscomplaints of GoT is because the last time he got (too?) attached to a piece of media, it was, well… -
Starks taking back Winterfell is supposed feel like big and epic moment but it felt just hollow. Had to laugh at Jon looking sad at Rickon and Wun Wun dead bodies when there a Red Woman who can revive the dead.
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Short Question:
! Did the onion knight know, that they killed the little girl via burning, or did he just discover it this episode? (Can't watch season 6 yet, so I can only read summarys) And I can't remeber the scene in season 5.
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Short Question:
! Did the onion knight know, that they killed the little girl via burning, or did he just discover it this episode? (Can't watch season 6 yet, so I can only read summarys) And I can't remeber the scene in season 5.
! He found it only now after encountering a funeral pyre containing a burnt doll of a deer which was the same one Shireen used to carry
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Starks taking back Winterfell is supposed feel like big and epic moment but it felt just hollow. Had to laugh at Jon looking sad at Rickon and Wun Wun dead bodies when there a Red Woman who can revive the dead.
She pretty much lost her faith when Stannis got defeated. The Jon Snow resurrection was just a one off thing she tried because she really wanted to believe just one more time in the Lord of the Light and comfort herself that her whole life wasn't wasted on some random King from Westeros who died a dog's death. I guess she would be banished from Winterfell next episode now that the Onion Knight found out about Shireen so that's that
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Starks taking back Winterfell is supposed feel like big and epic moment but it felt just hollow. Had to laugh at Jon looking sad at Rickon and Wun Wun dead bodies when there a Red Woman who can revive the dead.
Except for the fact that in this very episode, Melisandre stated that she doesn't truly have that ability. The only reason she was about to revive Jon was because The Lord of the Light has plans for him, so any attempt to revive Rickon or Wun Wun would be pointless and fruitless.
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Except for the fact that in this very episode, Melisandre stated that she doesn't truly have that ability. The only reason she was about to revive Jon was because The Lord of the Light has plans for him, so any attempt to revive Rickon or Wun Wun would be pointless and fruitless.
That's bullshit and you know it. It was obviously magic that revived Jon not some mystical almighty god.
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it's not bullshit. thoros seemed to imply the same thing when he was talking to sander about beric just this last episode.
this is actually a good thing because resurrection is a dangerous plot device, and im happy that there's a limit to it here, it's only the people who the lord of light wants can be revived. -
We don't Actualy know for sure if there is a god or just magic. It's supposed to be ambiguous. Considering the views of the author is a lot more likely to be magic.
Its more likely that its bound to the believes from the caster, she doesn't see the possibility nor the importance to revive wun wun nor rickon. Also, if a price must be paid, they are fresh out of king's blood.
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Well now that Ramsay's been offed I don't really know what I've got left in this show apart from The Hound.
If all I'm going to have left is a stream of story-lines featuring Jon, Dany, Arya, Sam, Sansa and Brienne then I'm not sure if I'll really bother with the rest of the show.
My feelings on these characters range from apathy (Jon) to outright contempt (Sansa).
I feel like the show has really lost that edge that it had, that came from any character being fair game when it came to death.
Now we're basically down to a plot armoured core of characters and it's taken a lot of the mystique away for me.
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The thing is that we are near the climax, the payoff for these characters is near. Jon and dany still need to face down apocalypse king's landing while slow is about to boil over… And euron could stop being the worst new character sinse the sand snakes.
Only the trial is left to be in completely new waters, with the dissapareance of Jon con and son, little finger in position to be closer to his book shrewdness, plus the dornish mess, euron not having a mystical element, and the citadel apparently non relevant. We are almost dorne with book 5 and the things that were open there.
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it's not bullshit. thoros seemed to imply the same thing when he was talking to sander about beric just this last episode.
this is actually a good thing because resurrection is a dangerous plot device, and im happy that there's a limit to it here, it's only the people who the lord of light wants can be revived.It's magic plain and simple that's bringing people back not some lord of light god that doesn't exist.
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You don't have evidence that in the book world he doesn't exist, or that in some volcano in esos there is an old man in a tree who decides who gets revived.
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I wonder if we are gonna get the War of Queens with Sansa ruling over the north, Cersey in King's Landing, Yara and Dany in the South
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I wonder if we are gonna get the War of Queens with Sansa ruling over the north, Cersey in King's Landing, Yara and Dany in the South
I don't see such a specific war happening. Cersei would want Sansa dead, but she has no power left. Should Tommen die, the Tyrells will never follow her, and Jaimie, despite his season 5 & 6 shortcomings, will not raise a hand against Sansa.
The North army has pretty much been depleted. Their only chance of survival against an invasion - until the coming winter is over - is the actual winter and the south's inability to deal with such cold. Regardless, they'll need whatever they have left to man the Wall.
I fully expect Dany to arrive next season, given the shorter seasons, and she might subjugate the houses that will resist, such as the Tyrells and Lannister, but the rest aren't even a challenge. I don't expect her to trouble the North. If she wants to rule all of it she'll need to save it first. With Tyrion at her side, at least she'll believe if someone like Jon says that yes, the White Walkers are in fact real and coming.
Dothraki in winter clothes should be jolly.
Dorne is at 100%, though. But hopefully we won't see them at all.
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I wasn't the biggest fan of this episode. The battle was really well shot and had some amazing editing especially the suffocating scenes, but there was so much gore that it started to feel almost comical.
The scene with Jon fighting through a crowd of mounted units crashing against each other whilst arrows rained down upon them felt ridiculous. I'm not sure whether Jon is being blessed by the God's with amazing luck so that he can stay alive or if the show just wanted to portray him as a badass but it felt quite odd. I do hope it actually has something to do with the Gods having future plans for him so they are keeping him from dying, because as awesome as it looked it didn't feel like it belonged in Game of thrones.
As far as battle episodes go I still much prefer the battle at the wall episode because that one blew me away visually and also it felt like it suited the tone of Game of thrones more. This episode blew me away visually but I felt less immersed. It might be because of how over the top the gore was but I imagine that was the point, to show the brutality of this type of battle. Ramsey being cartoonishly evil along with the over the top gore might be what made it feel a bit like a South Park parody to me.
Speaking of cartoonishly evil Ramsey I have to wonder how many of the Bolton soldiers looked around at the beginning of the battle at the burning flayed men on crosses, the flayed man banner, their leader decapitating dogs, their leader firing arrows at an unarmed child whose running away and thought to themselves "Are we the baddies"
It made me think of this:
Anyway I'm looking forward to next week's King's landing story reaching its climax and to Jon and the others having a go at Sansa for hiding her secret army from them and giving up on Ricken's life.
Jon explaining a pincer attack to Tormund was an 11/10 scene