You seem pretty confident and assured that a majority of Muslims aren't always against violence and then go on to say what you do know, you only know from your own experience.
Does your personal experience give you insight into the majority viewpoint of Muslims all around the world? Does it give you insight of an American Muslim like myself who would disagree otherwise? And what do you mean by violence? Extremists attacks on innocents? Military action? Tribal disputes? Harsh criminal justice? Street fighting? A person not always being against "violence" could mean anything. Like, I'm a Muslim and I wouldn't be against someone shooting a rapist pedophile in the face. Islam is a religion of peace but no one's trying to make it out to be the stereotypical Buddhist monk cliché where any act of violence turns Muslims pale and bent over a bucket.
I'm not the ideal Muslim, far from it, and surely can't speak for everyone, but I know the reason why Muslims come out so hard against violence in general is to fight the stereotype that Muslims are violent, period.
Sorry of course it's based on my life experience. Just as yours is. Just as anyone's or are you suggesting that you have implicit knowledge based on some a a priori source. When I mean life experience I do mean the culmination of my experience of being a Muslim that includes living in a Muslim society, living in a few years in a non-Muslim society such as Great Britain, being part of a local, Islamic community and with the internet, interacting and reading and discussing with fellow Muslims of course.
Just as you feel that the Muslims you live and interact with come out harsh against violence I can say with just as much certainty that the community, no the nation I live in barely does so. Whatever condemnation is lip service because the actions of the narrow fringe of radicals are implicitly supported by the state and tacitly supported by the majority Muslims where I live. When churches are firebombed or Bibles meant for Christians seized by the authorities on the pretext of a higher law the Muslim community that always lauds moderation to outsider is conspicuously silent.
You say I lack the insight of the Muslims living around the world. But how many Muslims nations exactly where the living standards and quality of life is better than North America? I can barely recall countries like Turkey, Malaysia, Indonesia, Brunei, Qatar, Dubai as having a quality of life that almost but is not quite as prosperous as Europe or North America.
One can be aware of the pulse of Muslims on a general level without having to survey every nation and community. It's primarily looking at attitudes and seeing the responses in action. The recent school massacre in Pakistan is a case in point. Amidst the grief and rage will Pakistan make the policy changes and implement them whereby hate speech and incitement to violence is outlawed and militancy whether bad or good Taliban is banned? I'm hoping that this marks a real watershed from which Pakistan can get rid of the militant scourge and build itself into a functioning civil society.
I sort of realise now that there is a difference in approach and interpretation here about the Muslim experience per se. The earlier methods I outlined as part of how I feel the French state and its Muslim community should respond to combat militancy are perhaps more in line with societies where Islam is ostensibly the State Religion. Islamic policies are essentially a top-down affair driven by the state apparatus. Community groups and mosques are organs of the Religious ministry in effect. Jumaat khutbahs are all vetted by the religious state department for example.
I think this is what drew Femme's ire, I was advocating a rather harsh approach when she and perhaps yourself and other Muslims living in say North America are more used to a community driven, participatory bottom up movement where the national Muslim leadership is driven by the community.
(TBH honest i don't know which came first in my country - latent Muslim activism and awakening interest in the community which the government encouraged through policy, Or Government Islamic policy encouraging Muslim community activism)
Posted by Femme
Now, what would end this cycle?
If regular practicing Muslims were seen as normal people and given freeway to do outreach work in the community without the media constantly making them feel like the enemy when someone spills a glass of milk, then more people would be educated, no isolation, no alienation etc.Honestly, if the media changed it's methods of portraying Muslims for one year, I wonder how much public opinion would change
i think in the long run the incremental approach you're advocating has more chance of success.
I guess one could say that moderates here (Malaysia) want the government or state to impose or enforce moderation/curb militancy because they and I feel deep down the Muslims community here as a whole won't confront the growing puritanist trend without the state's backing
by Monkey King
The theme I'm sensing between you two is that immigrant communities (and uh local African slave descendents Muslim communities) of the New World are quite different than European immigrant communities (no idea about Australia).
There's an awkward thing going on over there where I think poorer more vulnerable immigrants are moving in, and moving in with the very very awkward and undeveloped immigration culture of Western Europe.
It's like here in Canada and the US we have very matured and seasoned immigration cultures, the alienation he mentioned is just less of a thing. When even a ton of Kurds can decide to settle in Nashville of all places and have it work out alright.
This theme of alienated isolated seething immigrant communities in Europe just keeps coming up in this news thread.
I think he has a point that there's something to be done in the communities themselves, and I also think what you're saying is right in that the non-Muslim community needs to adjust some of it's attitude for sure.
That's what makes this so tricky, two sides have to make moves across a divide.
If immigrants could feel more comfortable in their new homes it would go a longgggg way to helping matters.
Pretty much agreed. I came from neither since I come from a Muslim country so it was fascinating to see Muslim communities elsewhere. I also agree the Muslim communities of North America are a wonderful example that Muslims can participate in a multi-ethnic, multi-religious environment in a peaceful and productive manner.