^I don't follow.
Second Round Discussion Thread
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^I don't follow.
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@Cyan:
Croc's comeuppance is his image getting shattered when it turns out he's really a post-Ivankov woman.
So his punishment for years of torturing a country and causing the deaths of many is everyone knowing he was a woman?
No, I can't say this would be a pleasant development.
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@The:
People need to be punished in the story to meet my standards of justice beause otherwise I get upset!
Enel achieved his dream.
Mr 2 is safe in level 5.5 after a brief self-inflicted spell in actual Impel Down.
Mr 3 is merrily(ish) on the crew of a Warlord (and so no longer wanted) after a brief spell in Impel Down.
Crocodile is free in the New World after a brief self-inflicted spell in Impel Down.
Spandam gets full medical treatment from the government and, uh, still has some major position with them. So he can do evil stuffs.
'Bad' Marines like Akainu and Onigumo are still working. Akainu even got a promotion.I don't know why you feel so pissy that Croc doesn't get appropriately 'punished'. But maybe you should be getting a lot more pissy because it's essentially the same for everyone.
Oda is not karma. He doesn't need to punish or reward people based on their actions. It's a story.
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You know, just because you don't agree with him doesn't mean you should refer to his arguments as based on such shallow reasons as being "pissy." Kind of a pet peeve of mine when people diminish others like that when it's completely unnecessary. You can disagree without treating him like a child.
And, again, I want to state how unfishined the series is. So saying stuff like Spandam got away is silly, since it's obvious that of all villains he's the one who should be most scared shitless seeing how all of the former CP9 is now after him. Likewise, Akainu will obviously get torn to shit for killing Ace and having nearly killed Luffy.
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GUYS!! Guys!!
Take a huff from the peace pipe. Hodi Jones didn't, and look what happened to him.Don't be like Hodi Jones, seriously.
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@Cyan:
Croc's comeuppance is his image getting shattered when it turns out he's really a post-Ivankov woman.
Hope to hell that's not true.
Mostly cause it would be kinda awkward, both in being presented as a "weakness", used to force someone to do what you want them to, would bring up complicated issues way over the heads of the target audience (and my own), and would also lead to some odd and unforunate implications (the idea of someone having been of the female gender as a source of embarassment, for example).
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
@The:
You are absolutely not getting what I'm saying.
My point is that Oda, the writer, wrote the story, One Piece, so that Crocodile, Bond style Supervillain, recieves no punishment for his actions.
If Oda thought Croc deserved to be punished for his actions, he would be. But Oda evidently doesn't.Again, consider Arlong. Remember his coverstory, his escape from ID with Luffy, and how he is now shooting the shit somewhere? Now why don't you remember that, I wonder.
First off, the dude is an ass but ID kinda sorta goes above and beyond the concept of "justice" and then ceases to share any spatial dimension with the concept entirely.
Second, what ?
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Enel achieved his dream.
At least Enels dream influences absolutely no one, and he is literally detached from the planet.
Mr 2 is safe in level 5.5 after a brief self-inflicted spell in actual Impel Down.
Are you seriously comparing Mr 2 to Crocodile?
Mr 3 is merrily(ish) on the crew of a Warlord (and so no longer wanted) after a brief spell in Impel Down.
The worst thing Mr 3 ever did was temporarily inconvenience some giants. You can't compare him to Croc in any way shape or form.
Spandam gets full medical treatment from the government and, uh, still has some major position with them. So he can do evil stuffs.
Last time we saw him, Spandam was more injured than any character ever seen in the series. If he ever shows up again, his face mask will be the least of his issues. Also, we have no idea of his current ob status. Also, if Spandam ever resurfaces -highly unlikely- it will only be to have more pain inflicted on him. Any reappearance will be as an adversary to the heroes, meaning he'll get stomped again.
'Bad' Marines like Akainu and Onigumo are still working. Akainu even got a promotion.
Loooolll Akainus promotion was not presented as a GOOD THING
I don't know why you feel so pissy that Croc doesn't get appropriately 'punished'. But maybe you should be getting a lot more pissy because it's essentially the same for everyone.
Where is Arlongs cover story then. When is Hody Jones going to pop up again, all Merry and jolly.
But even if there wasn't a double redeemability standard in play here…would that make it better? Like Odas no-death policy, it just makes it a persistent flaw. In their respective arcs villains are portrayed as manifestations of satan himself, and their defeat is an explosion of joy and satisfaction at their demise. The cast and readers legitimately despises the villains and want to see them get their comeuppance, as is the natural human reaction to the villains actions presented to them. Therefore, it is a natural human reaction to be a bit peeved when said villains comeuppance is rendered void.
Oda is not karma. He doesn't need to punish or reward people based on their actions. It's a story.
And I think Odas policy of ignoring past heinous actions of villains upon re-usage is a detriment to his story. Look, its not like I want real-life level punishments for every crime comitted in this series, but come on, a few weeks in jail for what Croc did is absurd. Reread Alabasta, look at all Crocodiles assholishness, look at him breaking Vivis spirit and throw her off that palace, look at all the emotions surrounding bringing down this supervillain, look at his defeat- and then consider that Oda reneged on any and all consequence for Crocodiles actions.
It doesn't mesh.Especially considering Arlong is still rotting in jail.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
@No:
First off, the dude is an ass but ID kinda sorta goes above and beyond the concept of "justice" and then ceases to share any spatial dimension with the concept entirely.
Second, what ?
1: I find it ironic that out of all Impel Down, level 6 prisoners probably had it the best.
2: I was being sarcastic -
The Second Round will start tomorrow around 1pm EST.
Don't miss the first match. You have been warned.
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@The:
1: I find it ironic that out of all Impel Down, level 6 prisoners probably had it the best.
2: I was being sarcasticI assume that's cause Oda ran out of unique hell ideas, ones he could get away with/want to do, or the ID staff aren't stupid enough to try their regular BS on the prisoners from level 6…..even if everyone we saw there when we still didn't know it was Level 6 looked like absolute fodder.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
The Second Round will start tomorrow around 1pm EST.
Don't miss the first match. You have been warned.
Is it possible to put it on the forum Calendar then ?
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Not really since the Calendar is bugged and doesn't function properly.
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Not really since the Calendar is bugged and doesn't function properly.
Was kinda hoping some of the other features the site has and nobody ever uses would come in handy once in a while.
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@The:
Are you seriously comparing Mr 2 to Crocodile?
The worst thing Mr 3 ever did was temporarily inconvenience some giants. You can't compare him to Croc in any way shape or form.
I think you forget how detestably evil Mr 3 was. Mr 2, also, was pretty damn nasty in Alabasta, but it kinda gets swept under the rug in everyone's minds (probably because we've got him goofing around and friendly both before and after, plus he's not a paticularly 'serious' character).
No one villain's actions will be directly comparable to another's, but these were similar things on a different scale. In any case, the most significant evil to the reader is always gonig to be the most personal ones, so scale isn't the most important thing at all.
Last time we saw him, Spandam was more injured than any character ever seen in the series. If he ever shows up again, his face mask will be the least of his issues. Also, we have no idea of his current ob status. Also, if Spandam ever resurfaces -highly unlikely- it will only be to have more pain inflicted on him. Any reappearance will be as an adversary to the heroes, meaning he'll get stomped again.
At least Enels dream influences absolutely no one, and he is literally detached from the planet.
Loooolll Akainus promotion was not presented as a GOOD THING
Concerning Spandam, at the very least, he was able to pin the failures at Enies Lobby on CP9 and order them hunted down, so he can't be doing too badly.
In any case, I'm getting a better picture of your issue than before. You don't like that certain bad guys are coming back in the main story in a way that they can be likable.
Now I'll wait for you to tell me the CP9 arc was ruined by the Franky Family becoming 'good guys'. And Franky never getting anything in the first place.
But in any case . . .But even if there wasn't a double redeemability standard in play here…would that make it better? Like Odas no-death policy, it just makes it a persistent flaw. In their respective arcs villains are portrayed as manifestations of satan himself, and their defeat is an explosion of joy and satisfaction at their demise. The cast and readers legitimately despises the villains and want to see them get their comeuppance, as is the natural human reaction to the villains actions presented to them. Therefore, it is a natural human reaction to be a bit peeved when said villains comeuppance is rendered void.
And I think Odas policy of ignoring past heinous actions of villains upon re-usage is a detriment to his story. Look, its not like I want real-life level punishments for every crime comitted in this series, but come on, a few weeks in jail for what Croc did is absurd. Reread Alabasta, look at all Crocodiles assholishness, look at him breaking Vivis spirit and throw her off that palace, look at all the emotions surrounding bringing down this supervillain, look at his defeat- and then consider that Oda reneged on any and all consequence for Crocodiles actions.
It doesn't mesh.Especially considering Arlong is still rotting in jail.
Now it's one thing that Nex is bothered by, a villain being redeemed and that retroactively weakening a certain arc. It's another thing entirely you're suggesting.
In Alabasta, Croc is evil. (So is Mr 2 … which everyone seems to forget.) Sure, we grow to hate him more and more as readers. And it culminates in a brilliant duel underground. And Croc gets badly beaten. And loses. Completely and totally. And it's satisfying, as it ought to be. So ... so far, so good.
In Impel Down, we meet Crocodile again. In the depths of the world's greatest prison, our 'good guys' need to compromise and take the help of some 'bad guys' in order to escape. This feels right. It's not like anyone wanted to free Croc. It's not like Croc even pretends to have a nice reason for getting out (he's going after Whitebeard). But it's necessary. And in that super-desperate arc, that compromise feels right.
Imagine Oda has let Croc out in the Baroque works cover story. That could have felt like a betrayal of Alabasta. But the way it's done, both arcs - Alabasta and Impel Down - benefit from it.
You have some really weird issue with the lack of 'punishment', but I don't buy that it's the storytelling that's weak here.
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Second round starts on my birthday! :D
I can't wait for the first round of the second round! -
New sig, it's shit but I don't have a scanner lol, I had to take a photo of it
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The Second Round will start tomorrow around 1pm EST.
Don't miss the first match. You have been warned.
New sig, it's shit but I don't have a scanner lol, I had to take a photo of it
So glad you're on Team Nami-Laboon~
@the Crocodile debate: I have to echo Noqanky's thoughts, in that…..well, just considering Daz's points how Croc barely got punished for the shit that he did is kinda making me go "wow…..should I really be liking him so much?". But again, Noqanky is correct - the story isn't over, so maybe we'll get his just desserts soon enough. I mean....it's hard to say what Oda will have him do now in the story, but....
I guess it's all part of the charisma. Caesar's hiliarously evil, but it's not like I forgot he experimented on children, or anything.
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I don't think any big comeuppance is coming Crocodile's way, since it seems pretty clear that he doesn't have a reason to hunt Luffy down or anything (he doesn't seem to be harboring a grudge against him). Any real payback he gets would have to be preceded by some fresh atrocity he committed, and I think that at this point if the story focused on yet another arc with Crocodile at the center it would lose momentum, so I just don't see it happening. At this point Crocodile is probably going to have a redemption character arc which will culminate with him helping Luffy. Why does Crocodile get redemption but not Arlong? I think it's impossible with Arlong because his villainy directly affected one of our primary cast and was too visceral, like Spandam to a lesser extent. Whereas what Crocodile did, while just as horrible and evil, was more the detached grand scheme sort of evil that's not as much of a gutpunch and therefore not as hotglued to the reader's indignation gland.
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There we go, the second round has officially begun.
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@The:
What? No, it isn't. It really really isn't. Try thinking about this from the perspective of the people in the OP universe- do you think any citizen of Alabasta is cool with Croc running around, free as a bird, suffering no consequences for his actions? "Oh well he has to live with the shame of defeat lolololol". No way. Croc escaping his punishmentthat easily should be a cause of great grief, frustration and anger, but aside from one token line from Luffy in ID, this has in no way been what Oda has done. Oda was more interesting in bringing him back (for funs sake I guess, he doesn't seem to have any real plan for him) than letting him suffer his punishment.
I don't get why you would want Crocodile to be punished. He's a fictional character, who's entertaining to read and is well-liked by fans. Why would you care about the karmic fate of a manga character? It's understandable in respect to the fact that it might influence the children reading the series, but other than that it's probably more realistic and positive for the series to have Crocodile escape and continue doing what he likes.
I do understand why you wouldn't want them to be redeemed half-heartedly though, but that's a different thing. -
I don't get why you would want Crocodile to be punished. He's a fictional character, who's entertaining to read and is well-liked by fans. Why would you care about the karmic fate of a manga character? It's understandable in respect to the fact that it might influence the children reading the series, but other than that it's probably more realistic and positive for the series to have Crocodile escape and continue doing what he likes.
I do understand why you wouldn't want them to be redeemed half-heartedly though, but that's a different thing.Why do we care that Walter White gets punished for his actions?
Why do we care that Valjean gets redeemed?
Why do we care the Goonies get enough jewels to save their town?Because we're invested in the story and the characters. We care enough to sit and hear the story, no matter how long it might be.
We care because the mark of a good story is the heroes triumph and the villains get punished. And when that doesn't happen it either is a great story or a cheat. And in the case of Croc, it makes for a cheat.
Make no mistake, I love Croc, he's my favorite villain due to just how despicable he was and because he could walk the walk. And why I was overjoyed to see him again, his reintroductionBy the by, since I kinda broached the subject, what kind of music are you usually listening to? I recall you liking the Beatles, and you obviously have an eclectic taste, so I'm really curious. was a cheat. All his sins were forgiven. Even Vivi is suddenly cool. And, remember, this is only a month or two after Alabasta. It's not like he was in prison for years. And it's not even like he loathed being there.
The long and short of it is Crocodile was never punished for his crimes.
The fan base is cool with it now, because the most recent memory of him is that of a decent guy. He tried to save Ace. He even saved Luffy. What a swell guy he is. Fans, for the most part have forgotten what a bastard he is. And that's really the whole point of my argument concerning Bellamy. When you reread Alabasta it's difficult to ignore how he is in the future. You just can't have the same level of hate for him. When Luffy finally beats him it's still an awesome moment, but it lacks the same emotional impact that it did before Croc was "redeemed." And that's what I'm worried about happening to my second favorite moment in the entire series.
I call it Boromir Syndrome. You hate this prick for most of the Fellowship but then his death grants him some redemption. But then he continues to be retroactively redeemed and turned sympathetic after his death, so much so that you forget what a prick he was, and even when you restart the story, you only remember the good, sympathetic parts of his character.
Anyway, I've rambled enough about a lot of loosely connected topics, so I'm going to stop now.
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@Nex:
I call it Boromir Syndrome. You hate this prick for most of the Fellowship but then his death grants him some redemption. But then he continues to be retroactively redeemed and turned sympathetic after his death, so much so that you forget what a prick he was, and even when you restart the story, you only remember the good, sympathetic parts of his character.
Well I've already said quite a lot about Croc and punishment and such, so I won't go on about it again, but this is interesting. I mean sure, you remember Boromir for the good bits, but when you restart the story, he's built up again in the same way, and as you get towards the his death, you get back into the mode of hating him, right?
Croc is a very different case which I've already said many things about. But what I just described is exactly what I found recently with Mr 2 and, to a lesser extent, Kaku. But Mr 2 at least, masters the transformation into good guy so well that I, at least, completely forget how evil he acts in that arc. It was kinda surprising rereading (well, actually it was the first time I'd read Alabasta; I'd only seen the anime before that).
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Vegeta is still kinda of an asshole no matter how many times you see the Saiyan and Namek sagas though.
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Vegeta was an asshole to the end though. I never liked him. I just kind of put up with him. But that's just me.
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Another one has fallen…
Looks like it's up to Moria now. Please don't betray me o' leeky one! :cwy:
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Robin and Magellan….another pick bites the dust.
Forgive me for my lack of campaigning, guys! I underestimated the opposition.....
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The champion is dead, long live the champion.
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Robin and Magellan….another pick bites the dust.
Forgive me for my lack of campaigning, guys! I underestimated the opposition.....
Same here man. I feel so foolish for not joining in sooner. :(
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… out of curiosity, how do you underestimate Doflamingo? I'd say he's even more of a threat to any opposition right now than Crocodile and Enel are. And, you know, Robin already won once so that's always a factor too.
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Yeah, Dofla's been crushing strong competition with very few campaigns. I wonder how well he'd do with a far more concentrated campaign effort
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Robin lost? Great success! insert Borat picture
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Robin lost? Great success! insert Borat picture
–-Well anyway we tried, but alas it didnt help. Ah well i had fun, i probably would have done more but doing campaigns through my phone at work sucks lol.
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I am deeply sad about Magellan having to go with Robin, but I really really did not want Robin to move forward.
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….SOON
I'm slighty excited.
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First Magellan. And now Sanji. All I've left now are the fishmen.
But I'm also impressed - not a single post about someone hating on the "new" Sanji!
Well, I've to congratulate the clown team nonetheless. Thanks for the excellent match!
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Surprisingly clean and awesome match, indeed.
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We have a job to do. -
Wow, Mohji almost it. That's awesome guys. Great campaigns all around.
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http://24.media.tumblr.com/8063ddcf57a813b99dd76a398b3e642b/tumblr_mkc9txBQve1rh8smko1_500.jpghttp://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m3sxko8azG1rv9xe4o1_500.gif
We have a job to do.Those bears won't stand a chance
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Never underestimate Kuma. Or cute bears. Especially the bears.
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Never underestimate Kuma. Or cute bears. Especially the bears.
Apocalypses don't work like weekends, can't spoil people with too many.
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Team Mohji, you guys put up a good fight. But I'm happy Caesar and Buggy are advancing~
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Surprised that last match was close, must have had a lot of people voting purely on who was losing
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@Venomous:
–-Well anyway we tried, but alas it didnt help. Ah well i had fun, i probably would have done more but doing campaigns through my phone at work sucks lol.
I'm really sorry. I wanted Magellan to advance, I really did. But I wanted Robin not to advance even more. Which sucks. But apparently, this is the "greatest joy" of the mods, quoting someone from the actual thread. If this is the actual reason for team-up matches, to f*ck with people, then I'm starting to lose respect. I was told by Dryish that there's a real reason to it but since the only other response I get is "to make people mad"…. not sure what to think.
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If your favorite character can't make it past a team up with a less popular character, they don't deserve to win the whole thing.
But if the mods do it purely to make everyone extra butthurt, I can completely respect that too.
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But if the mods do it purely to make everyone extra butthurt, I can completely respect that too.
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The tag matches are to mix things up. Keep the winner of a match from being predictable, to promote the creation of new campaigns. Some characters are still regurgitating material that was made 4 years ago! Some characters like Zoro don't even get campaigns! But when they're partnered with someone completely at random, all sorts of crack pairings and creativity fly.
Plus, we've had several hundred straightforward one on one matches now, to the point some characters have faced off more than once and we pretty much know the outcome of their bouts in advance. It's interesting when a strong character by random draw gets partnered with a weaker character which gives their opposition a better chance or proves how strong that guy really is… or with another strong character making for an almost unstoppable team. And sometime the result of "I like this character in the team but don't like the other character. Who do I vote for?"
It adds a different kind of strategy and balance, and makes you think differently and more creatively than you might have otherwise.
Eight tag matches (Out of a over a hundred!) keep it fresh, the same as a mini tournament of only new characters, or the massive free-for all prelims.
Even professional wrestling doesn't have just one on ones all they time. They have Barbed wire match , "I Quit" match, Iron Man match, Steel Cage match, Monster's Ball match , Two out of three falls match , Ultimate X match, Blindfold match, Catch-as-Catch-Can match, Empty Arena match, Flag, Handicap, Inferno, Lumberjack, Scaffold Match, Tuxedo, Ball Gown, special referee... and so on. And they mix it up because the same old thing gets boring!
If there were more ways to mix up the tournament, we can, would and will, we unfortunately can't use the same ideas wrestling does due to these contests being vote based. We're always brainstorming. We don't ever rig matches to get an outcome. On the few ocassions where a result is wacky at the end as the result of an obvious joke,(Drakes followers, Satori matches, Makino/Kizaru, etc) it's not our fault if people get butthurt over the "obvious jokes", and we tend to only do one or two of those during the entire multi-month event, and those are always set to their proper outcome before the actual following match.
In short... it's all for fun, and we're just trying to keep it fresh and interesting.
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Except you did it last year, it hardly counts as "fresh".
Furthermore the basic problem with tag teams is that they pass or fail in pairs. It takes control away from the voters as it effectively count each vote for two predetermined characters. For example if I wanted Buggy to pass but not Caesar there's nothing I can do.
@RobbyBevard:
We don't ever rig matches to get an outcome.
ever = not once
Blatant lies and you know it. The jokes were not obvious (if it was there would be no need to vote, the outcome would have been obvious to everyone). It is your fault people get butthurt because their votes count for nothing.Bottom line: Never ever trust anything Robby or Ubiq says in the character tournament.
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Except you did it last year, it hardly counts as "fresh".
Furthermore the basic problem with tag teams is that they pass or fail in pairs. It takes control away from the voters as it effectively count each vote for two predetermined characters. For example if I wanted Buggy to pass but not Caesar there's nothing I can do.
ever = not once
Blatant lies and you know it. The jokes were not obvious (if it was there would be no need to vote, the outcome would have been obvious to everyone). It is your fault people get butthurt because their votes count for nothing.Bottom line: Never ever trust anything Robby or Ubiq says in the character tournament.
Wow, talk about butthurt. Sounds like someone's still upset about the whole Ordeal of Balls thing.
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@Nex:
Wow, talk about butthurt. Sounds like someone's still upset about the whole Ordeal of Balls thing.
Knew someone would respond with "lol ur butthurt your just upset and whining".
I'm actually just pointing out flaws and contradictions.
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"Ultimate APCT Team Tourney"
4 teams of 32
Once it's down to 1 team, keep cutting it in randomized halves of revenge until only 2 remain. Mmmmm glorious. -
ever = not once
Blatant lies and you know it. The jokes were not obvious (if it was there would be no need to vote, the outcome would have been obvious to everyone). It is your fault people get butthurt because their votes count for nothing.Bottom line: Never ever trust anything Robby or Ubiq says in the character tournament.
This is not true, really. There has not once been a match where the poll would have been rigged from the beginning to the end or a case where we have tampered with the actual end results. Never. We have changed the appearance of the results by quirky name and poll question switches, but there has never been a single case of us blatantly ignoring the will of the majority of our voters nor will there ever be.
The tournament has always been and will always be all about the people participating in it, not about tournament mods shoving results that they want to see. What most people participating do not understand is the amount of work put into actually making this thing happen in the first place, but I can tell you that it is a lot and takes hours upon hours of planning, image editing, writing lists, randomizing lists, splitting up bigger lists into smaller ones several times, and a ton of heated discussion over the smallest details to make it as enjoyable as possible. Rigging things would go against everything that stands for, and we all know that. We will never change official results because there would be no tournament if someone did that.
In the past, there have been cases where the execution of tournament shenanigans has been questioned by many, and that's a debate that will keep on going for as long as there are people involved in the event, but in all honesty there are two sides in that as well. The communication might not have been the best at the time, and blaming people for that can be situationally justified, but the people getting riled up are always the people who do not trust us to do our jobs right. And that's downright insulting to many of us. No one likes to be told that they are untrustworthy for doing something when they are trying to amuse the people on the spot, especially not if it's unjustified and the person in question knows that. As tournament organizers, it's not our responsibility to bring those who distrust to trust us. That's their personal decision. We can maybe communicate our intentions better, but in most cases that actually detracts from the effect of the gags themselves, so we obviously can't do that at all times.
In short, we never change the results or make anyone's vote not count. Even if it seems like that, people should know that much and trust that it's only a joke. That's called trust.