Burgess won't fight the SHs now. It won't happen. I thought the four that makes it out of the Battle Royale are going against Doflo's family. Or am I wrong?
Official Dressrosa Thread
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Burgess won't fight the SHs now. It won't happen. I thought the four that makes it out of the Battle Royale are going against Doflo's family. Or am I wrong?
No one really knows right now what the format of the next stage is.
It could be a battle royale.
It could be one on one matches in a classic tournament tree format?Even if it is a battle royale again, would it be another last-man-standing scenario? Or do the Block winners team up against the Dofla people?
And then uh…Diamante fights them at once? Or does Diamante just fight the one winner?The way the tournament guy phrased it, it's almost like a casino game or something lol. Like the Dofla people just defend the fruit from participants?
Or are they ALSO trying for the fruit? Like Bellamy was?So many questions @-@
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@Monkey:
Hey guys remember when Gedatsu was slowly and surely visually revealed as he sat ominously watching a long drawn out event that he was in charge of, while being taunted at us further in a flashback doing sinister deeds?No I'm pretty sure we saw him run around in the jungle in front of Nami with the other three priests a bunch with no suspense and not doing anything much other than sparring with sky indians.
What evil deed was Diamante doing in the flashback? As for the build I think he's there to show us the importance and strength of the 3 suits in general.
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What evil deed was Diamante doing in the flashback? As for the build I think he's there to show us the importance and strength of the 3 suits in general.
Diamante was trying to kill Rebecca and her mom, apparently having been tasked with wiping out the royal bloodline lol.
For all we know he was the guy who DID end up killing her mom.
And can you please find me where any main subordinate of another guy got this level of real time build up? -
@Monkey:
And can you please find me where any main subordinate of another guy got this level of real time build up?
Mr. 2?
Hyozou?
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After all only trebol got a quick reveal. I think they both suppose to play major role in that arc. Although if that's the case I wonder how long will the arc. With the spades guy not being reveal yet I'm starting to consider arc to finish with Dofla.
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@Monkey:
Diamante was trying to kill Rebecca and her mom, apparently having been tasked with wiping out the royal bloodline lol.
For all we know he was the guy who DID end up killing her mom.
And can you please find me where any main subordinate of another guy got this level of real time build up?So that strange dude was Diamante? I thought it was trebol. Wasn't Diamante appearance reveal the second time we saw him at the presentation of the Doflamingo representatives? As for the build up. I dunno. But that would be the second fight with Dofla's subordinate as the boss.
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The merman beat by Zoro received good build up if I remember.
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@Nex:
Mr. 2?
Hyozou?
Mr.2 has turned out to be QUITE exceptional to normal thug rules, I feel that helps my point!
And Hyozou and his hype was taken to the altar of "making the post-skip strawhats more impressive" and controversially sacrificed. In that case I think the hype was by and large the point, to make him something big and then have Zoro flatten him WITH nearly the same taunt Mihawk once taunted him with (the frog in a small pond thing).
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So that strange dude was Diamante? I thought it was trebol.
Wasn't Diamante appearance reveal the second time we saw him at the presentation of the Doflamingo representatives?
We have not ever seen him fully revealed. We just saw a really close up shot of his face.
Since then we've seen things we didn't even see before, like him being super tall and having HUGELY long legs. -
@Monkey:
No one really knows right now what the format of the next stage is. It could be a battle royale. It could be one on one matches in a classic tournament tree format? Even if it is a battle royale again, would it be another last-man-standing scenario? Or do the Block winners team up against the Dofla people? And then uh…Diamante fights them at once? Or does Diamante just fight the one winner? The way the tournament guy phrased it, it's almost like a casino game or something lol. Like the Dofla people just defend the fruit from participants? Or are they ALSO trying for the fruit? Like Bellamy was? So many questions @-@
Based on the tournament guy's (Gatz??) phrasing, and the fact there are four blocks, I think the most likely format is each block winner fighting one family member. From there it would make sense to continue following the standard single elimination tournament format with quarter-finals, semi-finals, and then finals. "There are three who've earned the right to challenge the Donquixote Family!"
The only other route I can imagine that wouldn't be too convoluted would be to have as you said a battle royale with Doffy's peeps working together against the four block winners– this could be pretty interesting allowing them to trade opponents for just enough exposure from each of them without pushing the chapter/arc length too far, then having a last man standing scenario with Luffy and Jesus fighting.
Either way I've been assuming the slow reveal with Diamante was to make us believe Luffy's fight with him is a challenge after Jesus.
If Luffy takes out Jesus, why would we be concerned about the fight with some unknown dude from one arc?
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Based on the tournament guy's (Gatz??) phrasing, and the fact there are four blocks, it's looking like each block winner will fight one family member. From there it would follow the standard single elimination tournament format with quarter-finals, semi-finals, and then finals. "There are three who've earned the right to challenge the Donquixote Family!" The only other route I can imagine that wouldn't be too convoluted would be to have as you said a battle royale with Doffy's peeps working together against the four block winners– this could be pretty interesting allowing just enough exposure from each of them without pushing the length too far, then having a last man standing scenario with Luffy and Jesus fighting.
Either way I've been assuming the slow reveal with Diamante was to make us believe Luffy's fight with him is a challenge after Jesus.
If Luffy takes out Jesus, why would we be concerned about the fight with some unknown dude from one arc?
If it's a standard tournament, and a challenger loses in the first two, does that mean the two winning Dofla people then fight eachother?
Like Jesus loses to Senor Pink, and Barto loses to Dellinger, in the semis that would mean Senor Pink and Dellinger would fight.
Not even saying they'd win, but for the structure to work that way kind of wouldn't make sense, unless Dofla has his own people also trying for the fruit. And they've just been seeded for the standard tournament over the block matches.tbh I kind of hope it's that way, I'd like to see a simple Budokai format (albeit with a champ at the top) done in OP. But it would sure take longer than a battle royale.
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@Monkey:
If it's a standard tournament, and a challenger loses in the first two, does that mean the two winning Dofla people then fight eachother?
Theoretically you have an odd ratio of Doffy winners to Block winners, which you are right would complicate things if Doffy's men weren't being given the opportunity to win the fruit themselves. I imagine Oda would intentionally set things up so that Bartolomeo and Block D's winner would lose, since their roles aren't tied to the tournament, and that would allow Jesus and Luffy to each fight one of the respective Doffy family winners. For example Dellinger vs. Luffy and Senor Pink vs. Jesus.
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I imagine the battle royale theme will continue in the next round, with all 4 family members against the 4 block winners and the last man standing gets the opportunity to face Diamante in the final. If one of the family members wins then the house wins essentially, and the Donquixote pirates keep the Mera Mera, maybe wagering it again in a future tournament.
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When Doflamingo is ultimatley defeated (regardless if it is this arc or not) i think it would be pretty cool if he took a KO puch to the head that shattered his teeth, Breaking his signature Smile that is like his literal trademark (he put it on his jolly roger) and sort of a symbol of his pride, confidence and "demonic charisma".
Having his smile cracked would be his ultimate proof of defeat and a massive blow to his ego; since he wouldnt be able to physically honor the flag he himself created.
Does anyone else think would be a pretty cool idea? -
All the people that luffy defeated always lose at least one tooth after the beating , no matter how charismatic they are , so I think you will be satisfied.
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Luffy always defeats his opponents when they are at the center of their power and the SH still haven't shocked the world after they made it into the New World. Everything so far has been hushed up or hasn't made headline news. So Dofla's days are numbered I'd say. After all with Dressrosa being his base of operations where would he go after his inevitable defeat here? There is no way the SH will leave this island without overthrowing Dofla. Also Dofla is pulling all the stops. He used his hidden ace him being a member of the Tenryuubito, he has gathered his trusted lieutenants and we have an uncorrupted marine admiral right on the spot ready to take him into custody. Once he gets defeated here there is really nothing he will have left to offer. No "Ha ha last time I only used 10% of my true stength" crap.
After this arc is over I doubt we'll see him again other when Daddy posts bail for him and when he gets disciplined for the embarrassment he caused his family
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A Battle Royale in the next round could get rid of Burgess neatly, with maybe everyone working against him o get a ring out and then the three remaining Block Victors having to deal with the Family Champions (or those who are left) in a more tricky scenario.
It would certainly be fun.
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A Battle Royale in the next round could get rid of Burgess neatly, with maybe everyone working against him o get a ring out and then the three remaining Block Victors having to deal with the Family Champions (or those who are left) in a more tricky scenario.
It would certainly be fun.
Luffy will never work together to defeat someone, Luffys believes in pride in one on one… That's why Luffy always made it clear no one touches Lucci but him, agianst Hody he told Sanji no he will go. Etc
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This is whats going to happen after all this is over, last panel
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Luffy already fighting Burgess is unlikely though. I have a feeling that we are going to get the classic budokai with an interruption just before luffy has to fight against burgess.
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All the people that luffy defeated always lose at least one tooth after the beating , no matter how charismatic they are , so I think you will be satisfied.
I can think of a couple of antagonists that didnt. And in many cases it hasnt been permanent, more like temporal reaction shots, kinda like when for example Sanji or Nami slaps the shit out of Luffy and Zoro for acting stupid; and they get huge bumps all over their heads and blood dripping from their nose and mouths, but then in the next picture they are fine. I even recall seeing a couple of teeth fall out and then reappear within the same page this exact way, amongst strawhats.
Im not sure if you got my point about the irony of a pirate who always keeps his mouth open to showcase his big grin, and even based his pirate flag on this image, to permanently lose most of his teeth so that he will have to keep his mouth closed after his encounter with luffy. Its the kind of classic "Peacock who loses his featherrs" fable-symbolism of a megalomaniac brought to down to earth. Its would be even more ironic if it happens around the he loses his SMILE factory aswell.
And, of course, we need to see his sunglasses snap so we get to see how he really looks like. They also play a huge part in his cold, unfazed appearance.
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I'm guessing Don will likely fall from power this arc and suffer some battle wounds (he'll suffer more of a Moria-type defeat, though I dont think he'll be beaten that badly, rather than Crocodile-type defeat) but his ultimate defeat will come later in the series. Just a ton of obstacles the SH Alliance would have to overcome in order to take him out: the Don Family, Coliseum contestants, the marines+vice admiral+admiral combination, possible involvement by CP0
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I'm actually surprised that there hasn't been some silly debate about what's underneath Dolfa's shades. Along the same lines as the whole Zoro's scarred eye is actually concealing a hawk eye after training with Mihawk debacle.
I genuinely can't see Dofla going down in this arc. I wouldn't be suprised to see him somehow weasel his way back into Kaidou's good books and face Law at the same time Luffy faces Kaidou.
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I'm actually surprised that there hasn't been some silly debate about what's underneath Dolfa's shades. Along the same lines as the whole Zoro's scarred eye is actually concealing a hawk eye after training with Mihawk debacle.
I genuinely can't see Dofla going down in this arc. I wouldn't be suprised to see him somehow weasel his way back into Kaidou's good books and face Law at the same time Luffy faces Kaidou.
I would guess a normal set of eyes? If would still be rather cool to see how he looks without them, because his shades have become such an integral part of his presence that its impossible to picture him just with normal "naked" eyes.
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Luffy will never work together to defeat someone, Luffys believes in pride in one on one… That's why Luffy always made it clear no one touches Lucci but him, agianst Hody he told Sanji no he will go. Etc
Luffy's never participated in a team fight?
Satori? Oars? PX-4?
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Luffy will never work together to defeat someone, Luffys believes in pride in one on one… That's why Luffy always made it clear no one touches Lucci but him, agianst Hody he told Sanji no he will go. Etc
Yeah like when he told Mr. 3 to go with the others so he could fight Magellan himself.
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Luffy's never participated in a team fight?
Satori? Oars? PX-4?
This people are his nakama and none this people you mentioned was a serious main or important or final character luffy should care about..
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Yeah like when he told Mr. 3 to go with the others so he could fight Magellan himself.
I don't know what you talking about Luffy fought Magellan alone, mr. 3 just gave him the armor he needed.
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This people are his nakama and none this people you mentioned was a serious main or important or final character luffy should care about..
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I don't know what you talking about Luffy fought Magellan alone, mr. 3 just gave him the armor he needed.
It would be the same exact thing if Bart blocks Jesus's punches to help Luffy. The prisoners also fired cannons on Magellan during the battle. Luffy doesn't turn down help if he's offered it. In both those cases Luffy knew it would be more beneficial for his crew to get the keys/beat the 50,000 fishmen while he takes on the toughest guy.
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This people are his nakama and none this people you mentioned was a serious main or important or final character luffy should care about..
PX-4, not serious?
Oars, not 'main'? -
the more posts i read with predictictions doflamingo wont be defeated in this arc the more shittier it sounds and the more confident i get that oda will have luffy defeat him in this arc
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I think you're forgetting the bits where Doflamingo walked all over Smoker, didn't really balk when faced with Kuzan, and doesn't seem to be having any trouble with Law.
i think your forgetting that smoker was worn out from his fights with vergo and law sanjis food might have given him a bit more energy than normal food but its not magical unless you think that sanjis food couldve healed luffys injurys after the war or zoros after thriller bark, doflamingo chicken out from fighting kuzan hell he even said something along the lines of i dont wanna fight you plus there also the fact that killing smoker was a huge priority for dofla and since he wasnt able to do that because he feared kuzan the marines now know wwhat doflas been upto on ph just because dofla is an insane motherfucker and he has a permanant smile on his face 90% of the time doesnt mean hes unstoppable seriously any one who thinks that dofla is anywere even close to kuzans level is a rabid dofla fanboy and there is no point in even debating with them because nothing will cure them from there delusions i bet even at the end of the arc after luffy beats dofla you will still be making excuses for him also law is not fighting with an intent to win hes fighting with an intent to buy time for the strawhats to destroy the factory
@Monkey:
So you're saying in essence that when we finally have an excellent showcase for the Strawhats to show their post-time skip gains being pushed to the limit, Oda's going to blue ball us further for absolutely no reason. And in the process turn a character he's kept in reserve for almost a decade into just another Hody.
thepost time skip straw hats will be pushed to there limits dofla will be the strongest opponent luffys faced so far but he will also be defeated in this arc the people who think that the monster trio will just walk all over dofla and his seats are at opposite ends of the crazy spectrum but there is nothing to suggest that doflas backstory with the world government wont be brought into play and explained in this very arc people need to keep in mind that oda thought one piece would only last 5 years when he started it so alot of the big villians had to be introduced early on the gnomes are getting ready to attack the factory its getting set up for a final battle alabasta wasnt crocodiles home but it was his turf the straw hats are on doflas turf and there about to fuck shit up the straw hats will probably get bounty raises at the end of the arc they havent made big news in a while this will be there first "holly fuck icant believe they did that moment" after the time skip just like how it was when they declared war on the world
This is not a thing that is going to happened.
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the more posts i read with predictictions doflamingo wont be defeated in this arc the more shittier it sounds and the more confident i get that oda will have luffy defeat him in this arc.
For all of the plot threads to be wrapped up– Marines, Doflamingo, Tournament, Dressrosa history, Samurai and so on-- we'd be looking at another Skypiea or worse, with Punk Hazard and Dressrosa alone matching Alabasta's entire saga for length even they are only the first half of this Kaidou/Alliance saga. Given the relationship between Doflamingo and Kaidou, and also the 'much deeper' history with Doflamingo, it makes sense to resolve things with him later.
The Marines are really being swept under the rug in this discussion. Consider Aokiji's line in chapter 699 and then Akainu's line in chapter 700; the Marines know about Doflamingo's movements and are 'considering' matters for one day. That day isn't over yet, and Fujitora heard Caesar call Doffy 'Joker', so how/why do you think the Marines will just back out of the way so Luffy and Doflamingo can fight eachother like gentlemen? And what of Aokiji's foreboding comment about this being the most dire situation the new HQ has faced? What about him saying Doffy sets himself apart in more than one way? What about his World Government connections? His 'much deeper' past? Just try and consider how many chapters we'd be looking at on this small island to cram in all of that plot right there and still have it be satisfying.
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I think Luffy will beat DD in this Arc.
DD has shown for a lot of chapter, and this is the right moment to shut him down. There are tons more character lining up to show/beat. Moreover there also tons of people want revenge to Dofla's family. If Luffy doesn't beat him now, then there's only one reason and is not SH who run away buf Dofla. At last Marine/Somebody need to save his ass being kick by Luffy just to protect him as a Celestial Noble related.
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I would guess a normal set of eyes? If would still be rather cool to see how he looks without them, because his shades have become such an integral part of his presence that its impossible to picture him just with normal "naked" eyes.
It'll be so so strange to see him without those decade old shades.
Especially when it turns out his string powers are actually secondary to his optic blasts:ninja:
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The Marines are really being swept under the rug in this discussion. Consider Aokiji's line in chapter 699 and then Akainu's line in chapter 700; the Marines know about Doflamingo's movements and are 'considering' matters for one day. That day isn't over yet, and Fujitora heard Caesar call Doffy 'Joker', so how/why do you think the Marines will just back out of the way so Luffy and Doflamingo can fight eachother like gentlemen? And what of Aokiji's foreboding comment about this being the most dire situation the new HQ has faced? What about him saying Doffy sets himself apart in more than one way? What about his World Government connections? His 'much deeper' past? Just try and consider how many chapters we'd be looking at on this small island to cram in all of that plot right there and still have it be satisfying.
Those chapters are from before the Navy found out that Doflamingo is in actual fact still a Warlord though. As it stands, they won't be interfering directly in Doflamingo's business (unless me have a Smoker-type thing happening). So it's not unreasonable that we'll head straight towards a fight between Luffy and Doflamingo. Certainly the Navy will to some extent have an influence on events on the island - at the very least, we'll see something like the criminals in the colosseum fighting past the Navy to get away. On the other extreme, we might even have a major fight between a marine (such as Bastille) and someone else. But there's not really any indication that they'll get anywhere near the depth of focus that the Doflamingo Family will as of yet. As to the three question marks you raise whch don't pertain to the Navy, they are all about Doflamingo's past. We can learn a lot in the time the major fighting unfolds in a very comfortable way, and there isn't all that much to learn to be honest. We're well on our way to learning about the past of Dressrosa (we have reveals from the dwarfs on the '900 year struggle' to come, plus doubtless a bit more about the how and why of Doflamingo taking control). We have Doflamingo's past to see and probably Law's and maybe Bellamy's (in any case, all of those are bound to be intertwined to some extent so you can see how they build off of one another).
Sure, all of the plotlines mean we can expect this to be an arc as long as Alabasta or Skypiea; potentially a little longer. But the idea that because this will be a slightly long arc, there's little chance of resolving things with the main antagonist of the arc is very strange. Story-wise, it would be very dissatisfying to leave Doflamingo for later when so much of the satisfaction behind Doflamingo's fall will be based upon what he did on this island.
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i think your forgetting that smoker was worn out from his fights with vergo and law sanjis food might have given him a bit more energy than normal food but its not magical unless you think that sanjis food couldve healed luffys injurys after the war or zoros after thriller bark, doflamingo chicken out from fighting kuzan hell he even said something along the lines of i dont wanna fight you plus there also the fact that killing smoker was a huge priority for dofla and since he wasnt able to do that because he feared kuzan the marines now know wwhat doflas been upto on ph just because dofla is an insane motherfucker and he has a permanant smile on his face 90% of the time doesnt mean hes unstoppable seriously any one who thinks that dofla is anywere even close to kuzans level is a rabid dofla fanboy and there is no point in even debating with them because nothing will cure them from there delusions i bet even at the end of the arc after luffy beats dofla you will still be making excuses for him also law is not fighting with an intent to win hes fighting with an intent to buy time for the strawhats to destroy the factory
I'm not really going to go into the ins and outs of this. Clearly we have very different interpretations of what's been shown. As I see it, Doflamingo pretty comfortably bringing Smoker to the brink of death wa intended as a demonstration of his power. The way his standoff with Aokiji was portrayed seems to me as if it were intended to show that Doflamingo wasn't really 'afraid' of Aokiji (to the extent that the pre-timeskip Strawhats justifiably were on Sabaody). And regardless of the fact Law intends to stall, there's no mistake that he's losing. Badly. So we see he needs to get Caesar with the Sunny Team so he doesn;t suffer a tactical as well as physical defeat.
It's a pretty clear demonstration that Doflamingo is a calibre up of opponent compared with those we've seen taken on recently. And it does suggest that Doflamingo will be an actual challenge for Luffy to beat, potentially as Crocodile was.
Also, please punctuate your posts :S
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To me it seemed like it was there to showcase that while he is clearly stronger than Smoker, Aokiji is on another level
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In this arc most likely… We have more important personns after him, who already have a grudge against Luffy
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@wolfwoof:
To me it seemed like it was there to showcase that while he is clearly stronger than Smoker, Aokiji is on another level
I would agree except Dofla did what only Whitebeard has done before and "thawed" himself after being frozen by Aokiji. Not saying Dofla is even close to WB's level but Dofla has had feats comparable to Aokiji. Both beat Jozu pretty badly, both are well above VA level in terms of power, and Dofla was able to escape Aokiji's power attempting to (Not to mention Dofla went ahead with attempting to kill Smoker despite Aokiji saying to quit it). Also Dofla has been shown to have CoC something Aokiji doesn't have. I think it's hard to say with all the evidence we have Aokiji is on a different level than Dofla. I think Dofla/Mihawk/Hancock all who were not injured in the war are on another level as shichibukai.
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Those chapters are from before the Navy found out that Doflamingo is in actual fact still a Warlord though. As it stands, they won't be interfering directly in Doflamingo's business. There's not really any indication that they'll get anywhere near the depth of focus that the Doflamingo Family will as of yet.
None of this actually addresses what I said in my post. First of all, he pulled strings with the World Government, he went over the Marines' heads on this. Second, everything I said in my post. Doflamingo wanted to kill Smoker, do you remember why? Aokiji told Smoker to report it all to Akainu. He did. Before the news about Doflamingo leaving the Warlords came out. And again, Fujitora just heard Caesar call Doflamingo by the name 'Joker'. I suppose this is unimportant though?
As to the three question marks you raise which don't pertain to the Navy, they are all about Doflamingo's past. We're well on our way to learning about the past of Dressrosa.
See the difference? Two separate entities, two separate histories. Doffy came to Dressrosa ten years ago, so there's more to his story than just Dressrosa. As a villain, particularly one who's been teased for almost the entire series, stuffing all of him and his built up history into this contained arc would be a mistake.
All of the plotlines mean we can expect this to be an arc as long as Alabasta or Skypiea; potentially a little longer. But the idea that because this will be a slightly long arc, there's little chance of resolving things with the main antagonist of the arc is very strange.
Not Alabasta and Skypiea as arcs, Alabasta and Skypiea as sagas. We are in the middle of a saga right now, revolving around Kaidou and/or Law's Alliance, and Dressrosa/Punk Hazard is just the beginning of that saga. Currently these two arcs alone are looking to surpass the longest saga(s) in the series, and we still haven't even reached our Alabasta or Skypiea yet. Zo? Wano? Kaidou? There's good reason for Oda to keep Dressrosa shorter, and there's also good reason to conclude things with Doffy later, but the two are independent arguments.
Story-wise, it would be very dissatisfying to leave Doflamingo for later when so much of the satisfaction behind Doflamingo's fall will be based upon what he did on this island.
I won't pretend to know how Oda's going to wrap this arc up, but the end result must be Doflamingo losing his position as King and most likely Warlord. Losing much of his crew, his country, and his status is a big deal. He'll be pissed. He isn't taking Luffy seriously right now and you can bet your ass he will after all is said and done, but he'll also have the Marines and Kaidou to worry about. For a guy who has been smiling and doing whatever the hell he wants all series, how is this not satisfying? Particularly when you know he'll still get his face smashed in later?
I asked this question before, but I'll ask it again: under what circumstances do you think the Marines will leave, given what they know and who is there?
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See the difference? Two histories, two separate entities. Doffy came to Dressrosa ten years ago, so there's more to his story than just Dressrosa. As a villain, particularly one who's been teased for almost the entire series, stuffing all of him and his built up history into this contained arc would be a mistake.
Im sorry, but I hate when people do this. You are not Oda. It's Oda's story. If Donflamingo gets taken down this arc, it isn't a mistake.
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I would agree except Dofla did what only Whitebeard has done before and "thawed" himself after being frozen by Aokiji. Not saying Dofla is even close to WB's level but Dofla has had feats comparable to Aokiji. Both beat Jozu pretty badly, both are well above VA level in terms of power, and Dofla was able to escape Aokiji's power attempting to (Not to mention Dofla went ahead with attempting to kill Smoker despite Aokiji saying to quit it). Also Dofla has been shown to have CoC something Aokiji doesn't have. I think it's hard to say with all the evidence we have Aokiji is on a different level than Dofla. I think Dofla/Mihawk/Hancock all who were not injured in the war are on another level as shichibukai.
To me Doffy's attack and deep freeze was like an owner reminding a dog that it's on a leash
Im sorry, but I hate when people do this. You are not Oda. It's Oda's story. If Donflamingo gets taken down this arc, it isn't a mistake.
Wouldn't that mean that no author ever makes a mistake?
Seems a little silly to think Oda is beyond making bad choices
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Im sorry, but I hate when people do this. You are not Oda. It's Oda's story. If Donflamingo gets taken down this arc, it isn't a mistake.
I'm not a writer, and I don't have a technical education on the subject, so if it makes you feel better you can classify my post as just being my opinion. If you want me to use less harsh terms then, "it would be a letdown". It is my belief that much more can be done with the narrative if Doflamingo is displaced but not defeated in this arc; that is, I think it would be better for the story. It is further my belief that many variables, such as the Marines, complicate matters for the arc but give weight to the argument that they will be involved throughout the saga as a whole. For example, Aokiji's warning to Smoker directly ties Doflamingo and the Marines to a huge event that will be the biggest the new Marines have seen. Dressrosa is not that.
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How do you guys think Big Mom will tie into this if doflamingo isn't defeated here? i mean after the day that's currently happening in one piece, Big Mom is supposed to have a tea party in which the bomb in the treasure the straw hats gave her will most certainly go off
If Doflamingo is on the run from both the Marines and Kaidou, wouldn't it seem logical for him to go try to ally himself with someone like her?
I just can't wrap my head around the fact that the Kaidou storyline is going on at the same time as the big mom one and how there going to intersect
and pekoms reaction to ceaser being defeated seemed odd to me to!
and then we've got all sorts of underlying plots being made, wano, aokiji and black beard, the marines, kid, hawkings & apoo alliance, abalsom has been thrown into the mix (and if you think about how Gecko moria was almost killed by Doflamingo and his original crew was killed by Kaidou then this seems like the perfect oppurtunity for him to reappear in the storyline) and the brokers
so is this all one big saga that changes the world or is he setting things up for way down the line
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How do you guys think Big Mom will tie into this if doflamingo isn't defeated here? i mean after the day that's currently happening in one piece, Big Mom is supposed to have a tea party in which the bomb in the treasure the straw hats gave her will most certainly go off
If Doflamingo is on the run from both the Marines and Kaidou, wouldn't it seem logical for him to go try to ally himself with someone like her?
I just can't wrap my head around the fact that the Kaidou storyline is going on at the same time as the big mom one and how there going to intersect
and pekoms reaction to ceaser being defeated seemed odd to me to!
and then we've got all sorts of underlying plots being made, wano, aokiji and black beard, the marines, kid, hawkings & apoo alliance, abalsom has been thrown into the mix (and if you think about how Gecko moria was almost killed by Doflamingo and his original crew was killed by Kaidou then this seems like the perfect oppurtunity for him to reappear in the storyline) and the brokers
so is this all one big saga that changes the world or is he setting things up for way down the line
I'm still thinking Law is going to try and secretly get Kaidou and Big Mom into a war with eachother, as part of his plan in bringing him down.
Which would tie all the concurrent goings on together quite nicely.I'm also still convinced that Kid's alliance is against Big Mom, so we might see Kid take down an emperor at the same time Luffy does.
I can see this whole storyline taking care of two birds with one stone basically, but as a result will no doubt be looooong. -
I'm more on the idea that Big mom and Kaido make an alliance with the mindset of making sure they get rid of these brats of the worst generation.
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None of this actually addresses what I said in my post. First of all, he pulled strings with the World Government, he went over the Marines' heads on this. Second, everything I said in my post. Doflamingo wanted to kill Smoker, do you remember why? Aokiji told Smoker to report it all to Akainu. He did. Before the news about Doflamingo leaving the Warlords came out. And again, Fujitora just heard Caesar call Doflamingo by the name 'Joker'. I suppose this is unimportant though?
You recall that at that point, Fujitora judges that Caesar will have to be left untouched for being Doflamingo's subordinate though, right? In other words, we are certainly currently in a position where the Navy is not going up against Doflamingo or overtly interfering with what he's doing. Theoretically, that coudl change in the future. There's a good chance we'll see a bit of Akainu speaking to the Gorosei as part of unveiling or teasing Doffy's past, adn this might lead to the Navy being allowed to do something against him. At present though, that looks like a no. So to assume that the Navy will complicate things by interfering, thereby complicating Dressrosa's plot to a length which is 'too great' seems an odd assumption.
See the difference? Two separate entities, two separate histories. Doffy came to Dressrosa ten years ago, so there's more to his story than just Dressrosa. As a villain, particularly one who's been teased for almost the entire series, stuffing all of him and his built up history into this contained arc would be a mistake.
Sure. That's in fact what I said in my post. Everything you were referring to was exclusively Doflamingo's deeper past. Dressrosa's past, we've already got a lot of. We're going to get the rest of course pretty comfortably. I don't think that disallows Doflamingo's deeper past and certainly insofar as how Law and maybe Bellamy was involved at some point is something you'd expect to see in this arc. There's enough 'time' for that to come through properly. Sure, Doflamingo's been teased and built up quite a bit but this is his arc. This is the time when learning about his past actually matters the most. It's probably the most opportune moment to learn about it.
Not Alabasta and Skypiea as arcs, Alabasta and Skypiea as sagas. We are in the middle of a saga right now, revolving around Kaidou and/or Law's Alliance, and Dressrosa/Punk Hazard is just the beginning of that saga. Currently these two arcs alone are looking to surpass the longest saga(s) in the series, and we still haven't even reached our Alabasta or Skypiea yet. Zo? Wano? Kaidou? There's good reason for Oda to keep Dressrosa shorter, and there's also good reason to conclude things with Doffy later, but the two are independent arguments.
I think you're looking at this 'saga' thing pretty simplistically. Look at Baroque Works. Look at the Saga of Skypiea. They're quite different in structure. Jaya is a bit of quick inter-arc showing of events all over the place, building up the over-arcing war storyline. Jaya is also a quick lead-in to Skypiea proper, and a little bit of setting up. And Jaya is also a very compelling mostly self-contained story. Most of the real setting up as well as the adventure and big battle of that saga happen in Skypiea proper. On the other hand, Baroque Works has most of the set-up done in Whiskey Peak, and separates that from the key arc - with our major final battle - by a couple of other adventures of varying importance to the saga's plot (in the first case, a bit, in the second case, none). It's pretty clear that this arc is different again. Let's forget about the issue of whether or not Doflamingo is ebaten by Luffy in this arc. Dressrosa is still an arc great in scope. We still have this whole kingdom's story to tell, with a big battle on its way and up against pretty formidable opponents. In that sense, we've already got a very different story structure to those older sagas. Sure Punk Hazard is pretty much our set up arc but it tells us very little about our big baddie for this saga - Kaido. That's still to come. PH worked much more to launch us into Dressrosa.
So we're in a pretty big (in scope) arc with a lot of direct buildup. Our antagonist this arc - putting aside whether he gets taken out or not - is someone who really makes an impression as an antagonist and has been built up for a long time. That all makes Dressrosa much more than some Little Garden or Drum analogue. It's not just a cog in a much bigger thing; it is a really big and deep story in and of itself. With that sort of big story to tell, the arc can basically be as long as it needs to be to tell that story well. Which brings me onto this:
I won't pretend to know how Oda's going to wrap this arc up, but the end result must be Doflamingo losing his position as King and most likely Warlord. Losing much of his crew, his country, and his status is a big deal. He'll be pissed. He isn't taking Luffy seriously right now and you can bet your ass he will after all is said and done, but he'll also have the Marines and Kaidou to worry about. For a guy who has been smiling and doing whatever the hell he wants all series, how is this not satisfying? Particularly when you know he'll still get his face smashed in later?
For all I say about not applying an Alabasta saga mould to this story, there is a very predictable arc pattern that Oda uses. Because it works.
We generally start adventuring or looking around. we have a bit of light-hearted fun here or at least learn about what's going on.
That leads us into learning who the villain is, if we don't know already, and definitely gaining plenty of reasons to want to see them taken out.
Then we have a big final battle in which the villain and any subordinates get defeated, ending with Luffy taking out the arc villain for intense satisfaction.So we've already started gaining plenty of reasons to hate Doflamingo, and this is his show we're closing the curtain on. So we keep working up over the next volume why we don't like Doflamingo, we learn a bit more about him and the way he took control of the country. We enter a big final battle and probably keep learning quite a lot more - but by this time we ought to have enough reason to despise Doflamingo and probably at least his top subordinates.
And then the arc end with the big climactic battle between … Luffy and Diamante. And Doflamingo gets left for later.
Personally I think ... it's not bad writing as such, but it goes against the way in which One Piece is predictably well-written. I think the story in One Piece runs right alongside the combat at the end of an arc, and in the way One Piece is written, seeing anyone but Doflamingo be the final fight for Luffy here would less powerful. And I get that story-wise, there's a certain satisfaction in seeing Doflamingo's world crumble, but it's very weak compared to him being physically beaten in bringing that about. And moreover, if he is to be physically beaten later in the story, that moment will be very weak compared to if he had been beaten here on Dressrosa (or in this arc).
I asked this question before, but I'll ask it again: under what circumstances do you think the Marines will leave, given what they know and who is there?
I have no answer to this. I don't think the Navy being present and what I expect for the overall way the arc plays out are mutually exclusive. My guess would be that the Navy will to some extent be present throughout the arc, as in Alabasta for example.
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I just can't wrap my head around the fact that the Kaidou story line is going on at the same time as the Big Mom one and how there going to intersect. And Pekoms reaction to Caesar being defeated seemed odd to me to! We've got all sorts of underlying plots being made: Wano, Aokiji and Blackbeard, the Marines, Kid's Alliance, Absalom thrown into the mix– Gecko Moria was almost killed by Doflamingo and his original crew was killed by Kaidou, so this seems like the perfect opportunity for him to reappear in the story line-- along with the brokers.
@Monkey:
I'm still thinking Law is going to try and secretly get Kaidou and Big Mom into a war with eachother, as part of his plan in bringing him down. Which would tie all the concurrent goings on together quite nicely. I'm also still convinced that Kid's alliance is against Big Mom, so we might see Kid take down an emperor at the same time Luffy does. I can see this whole storyline taking care of two birds with one stone basically, but as a result will no doubt be looooong.
There's also Jinbe to consider. Luffy's declared war against Big Mom, essentially, and Jinbe is trying to resolve that issue himself, so it would be appropriate for Luffy to be involved in her defeat, given he stated he would do so. Big Mom won't be taken care of off-screen, and I agree Kid's must be aimed at Big Mom, so if Law's plan does tie in to that then we might end up with the 'Worst Generation' going up against two Emperors at the same time.
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And both Emperors could make a last resort alliance to make sure they continue at the top of the "food chain".
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@Nex:
Just because the a portion of the audience thinks its a mistake doesn't make it a mistake.
Nex are you saying you thought my post saying Oda wasn't god was implying that we were instead?
Why that would make no sense.In the end, Oda is the author. He is crafting this story, if he feels that now is the right time for Doflamingo to be defeated, then it's the right time, and it's not a mistake no matter your personal opinion. He obviously has his reasons for wanting it done this way, and all will make sense eventually.
Artists do bad things sometimes too.
You're in film school right? How do you not know this lol.Most of storytelling's iconic moments are "mistakes."
Your use of mistake here has literally nothing to do with Brennan's.
A guy making a choice in a story that makes a villain feel wasted, has nothing whatsoever to do with dropping a paint can on a canvas accidentally and having it turn out awesome.
These are completely different subjects. Frankly it kind of sounds like you're not even responding to Brennan or me, but want to get angry at us anyway.The Red Wedding in A Storm of Swords, totally a storytelling mistake, it made no sense.
Alright you have no idea what you're talking about lol.
This is neither a mistake in the sense of a bad idea (I mean clearly you don't think so, so you calling it a mistake is absolute nonsense), or a mistake in the literal sense (of which there are virtually none possible in writing aside from like typos and grammar).
In a dark fantasy series, a lead character and her son's overextended ambition and careless mistakes caught up with them when a untrustworthy minor lord colluded with their crafty enemy to set up a massacre of them where they'd least expect it.
And the stakes of the series were risen ever further in doing so.
Hell it's something that happened irl consistently throughout history. People being invited to happy occasions and being massacred by some powerful guy.Omar's last scene in The Wire; definitely a storytelling mistake. Still pretty much perfect.
How the hell was that a mistake either.
What is your understanding of "storytelling mistakes". -
@Nex:
And whatever way they choose to tell it, that is the right way, because it is their story. Make no mistake, that doesn't make every story a good story, or even a decent one, but it means it's not wrong.
Even giving you the benefit of the doubt that you misunderstand what I meant by 'mistake' I still don't follow your logic.
[hide]You recall that at that point, Fujitora judges that Caesar will have to be left untouched for being Doflamingo's subordinate though, right? In other words, we are certainly currently in a position where the Navy is not going up against Doflamingo or overtly interfering with what he's doing. Theoretically, that coudl change in the future. There's a good chance we'll see a bit of Akainu speaking to the Gorosei as part of unveiling or teasing Doffy's past, adn this might lead to the Navy being allowed to do something against him. At present though, that looks like a no. So to assume that the Navy will complicate things by interfering, thereby complicating Dressrosa's plot to a length which is 'too great' seems an odd assumption.
Sure. That's in fact what I said in my post. Everything you were referring to was exclusively Doflamingo's deeper past. Dressrosa's past, we've already got a lot of. We're going to get the rest of course pretty comfortably. I don't think that disallows Doflamingo's deeper past and certainly insofar as how Law and maybe Bellamy was involved at some point is something you'd expect to see in this arc. There's enough 'time' for that to come through properly. Sure, Doflamingo's been teased and built up quite a bit but this is his arc. This is the time when learning about his past actually matters the most. It's probably the most opportune moment to learn about it.
I think you're looking at this 'saga' thing pretty simplistically. Look at Baroque Works. Look at the Saga of Skypiea. They're quite different in structure. Jaya is a bit of quick inter-arc showing of events all over the place, building up the over-arcing war storyline. Jaya is also a quick lead-in to Skypiea proper, and a little bit of setting up. And Jaya is also a very compelling mostly self-contained story. Most of the real setting up as well as the adventure and big battle of that saga happen in Skypiea proper. On the other hand, Baroque Works has most of the set-up done in Whiskey Peak, and separates that from the key arc - with our major final battle - by a couple of other adventures of varying importance to the saga's plot (in the first case, a bit, in the second case, none). It's pretty clear that this arc is different again. Let's forget about the issue of whether or not Doflamingo is ebaten by Luffy in this arc. Dressrosa is still an arc great in scope. We still have this whole kingdom's story to tell, with a big battle on its way and up against pretty formidable opponents. In that sense, we've already got a very different story structure to those older sagas. Sure Punk Hazard is pretty much our set up arc but it tells us very little about our big baddie for this saga - Kaido. That's still to come. PH worked much more to launch us into Dressrosa.
So we're in a pretty big (in scope) arc with a lot of direct buildup. Our antagonist this arc - putting aside whether he gets taken out or not - is someone who really makes an impression as an antagonist and has been built up for a long time. That all makes Dressrosa much more than some Little Garden or Drum analogue. It's not just a cog in a much bigger thing; it is a really big and deep story in and of itself. With that sort of big story to tell, the arc can basically be as long as it needs to be to tell that story well. Which brings me onto this:
For all I say about not applying an Alabasta saga mould to this story, there is a very predictable arc pattern that Oda uses. Because it works.
We generally start adventuring or looking around. we have a bit of light-hearted fun here or at least learn about what's going on.
That leads us into learning who the villain is, if we don't know already, and definitely gaining plenty of reasons to want to see them taken out.
Then we have a big final battle in which the villain and any subordinates get defeated, ending with Luffy taking out the arc villain for intense satisfaction.So we've already started gaining plenty of reasons to hate Doflamingo, and this is his show we're closing the curtain on. So we keep working up over the next volume why we don't like Doflamingo, we learn a bit more about him and the way he took control of the country. We enter a big final battle and probably keep learning quite a lot more - but by this time we ought to have enough reason to despise Doflamingo and probably at least his top subordinates.
And then the arc end with the big climactic battle between … Luffy and Diamante. And Doflamingo gets left for later.
Personally I think ... it's not bad writing as such, but it goes against the way in which One Piece is predictably well-written. I think the story in One Piece runs right alongside the combat at the end of an arc, and in the way One Piece is written, seeing anyone but Doflamingo be the final fight for Luffy here would less powerful. And I get that story-wise, there's a certain satisfaction in seeing Doflamingo's world crumble, but it's very weak compared to him being physically beaten in bringing that about. And moreover, if he is to be physically beaten later in the story, that moment will be very weak compared to if he had been beaten here on Dressrosa (or in this arc).
I have no answer to this. I don't think the Navy being present and what I expect for the overall way the arc plays out are mutually exclusive. My guess would be that the Navy will to some extent be present throughout the arc, as in Alabasta for example.[/hide]
Kuzan: "Anyway… don’t take your eyes off of Doflamingo. He’s a Shichibukai and the current king of Dressrosa, but he’s different from the Snake Princess of the Kuja. A pirate who’s exceptional in more ways than one. Contact Sakazuki and tell him to mobilize the Admirals. Things could go from bad to worse, and fast. It could be the most dire situation that Sakazuki and his new Marine HQ have faced! I’ve given you fair warning…"
AN ENTIRE ISLAND COULD POSSIBLY HAVE THEIR KING DISPLACED!! THE MOST DIRE SITUATION…!!
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Well yeah dude, we didn't see it but Marine HQ was mobilizing huge forces right off the Alabasta and Drum coasts during both those arcs, but they couldn't find a parking spot before the Strawhats finished things.
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Croc, Enel, and Moriah all got beaten but they'll still be relevant to the story later on. Same could happen to Dofla.
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@Monkey:
Artists do bad things sometimes too.
You're in film school right? How do you not know this lol.Over and done with. I'm working production for Sony now.
And yeah, artist's do bad things, but as long as its what they wanted, it's not a mistake. That's the crux of what I'm saying.Your use of mistake here has literally nothing to do with Brennan's.
A guy making a choice in a story that makes a villain feel wasted, has nothing whatsoever to do with dropping a paint can on a canvas accidentally and having it turn out awesome.But if it's what Oda wants, then it's not a mistake. He may have some greater plan. Or he could just be done with it. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean Oda was wrong to do it. Is it bad writing? Possibly. But that still doesn't make it a mistake.
These are completely different subjects. Frankly it kind of sounds like you're not even responding to Brennan or me, but want to get angry at us anyway.
You're right, I'm more so responding to the idea of authors making mistakes in general. But I am arguing for the statement Champ made. That if Oda wants him taken down, then it's not a mistake. (Once again, this does not mean that it's a good choice or even good writing.)
I guess the best way to phrase it would be "author autonomy." Any author of any kind of work is allowed to do whatever they want in creating that work. No choice they make, so long as it is what they want to do is a mistake.
An example: say I'm creating a 7 book epic series. I introduce our core group of characters, but then I kill them all off by the end of the first book. Storytelling wise, that's a huge "mistake," you just don't do that. It makes no sense. And, while it might be downright bad writing to do so, as long as I am happy with the choice, and it's the direction I want to take my story, then it's not a mistake
Alright you have no idea what you're talking about lol.
This is neither a mistake in the sense of a bad idea (I mean clearly you don't think so, so you calling it a mistake is absolute nonsense), or a mistake in the literal sense (of which there are virtually none possible in writing aside from like typos and grammar).
In a dark fantasy series, a lead character and her son's overextended ambition and careless mistakes caught up with them when a untrustworthy minor lord colluded with their crafty enemy to set up a massacre of them where they'd least expect it.
And the stakes of the series were risen ever further in doing so.
Hell it's something that happened irl consistently throughout history. People being invited to happy occasions and being massacred by some powerful guy.I think your missing the fact that the first time I said mistake before listing examples, it was in quotation marks. y bad, I should have done it for all.
The Red Wedding is a storytelling "mistake" because it happened halfway through the third book in a seven book series. Martin completely and utterly wiped out the North. Beyond that, he wiped out the only good guys in the war. From a storytelling perspective, you just don't do that. It's not the standard. It's not procedure. Especially only halfway through a book. That's what I mean when I say it was a "mistake."
How the hell was that a mistake either.
! Because you just don't kill off a character like Omar like that in standard storytelling. It's just not done. That's what makes it so perfect of a scene. The "proper" way would be him at least staring down his killer. The King doesn't get got by some little kid from behind. That's just not how it's supposed to happen.
What is your understanding of "storytelling mistakes".
I think all of the above explains this decently.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Croc, Enel, and Moriah all got beaten but they'll still be relevant to the story later on. Same could happen to Dofla.
This is exactly what I'm suspecting to happen.
Doflamingo's past isn't an issue for the Straw Hats right now, but it will be in spades once he's beat. Especially if he's of Celestial Dragon heritage. Beating him will have repercussions that no one sees coming.
That's how I feel, anyway.