Imagine the massive exodus of people with Zoro and/or Mihawk themes that would cause
The Final Villain
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I'll be happy as long as we get to see Mihawk fight at full power against the BB Pirates, maybe fighting alongside Shanks.
Yeah, almost definitely that would be when it happens. It fits with the idea that the BB people take out Shanks and his crew.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
@wolfwoof:
Imagine the massive exodus of people with Zoro and/or Mihawk themes that would cause
It's easy if you try~
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If the death of Poochie was akin to the great sorrow for the cool crowd
Then the death of Hawkeye surely would be the fall of the empire
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Call me crazy, but I think it's going to be Coby for the final fight. The evidence?
1. Coby was the first person Luffy ran into in Romance Dawn. Great stories start where they end. Two seemingly immortal frenemies duel with the skills they've trained so very hard to achieve to prove their points.
2. Coby had a war moment. Why? Because Coby, not Blackbeard, is the other side of Luffy's coin. Luffy's taking the easy way out, he's selfish. Coby isn't nearly as selfish and is putting the hard work to good use becoming a marine for true justice.
In the end we will be left with a hero, but it isn't luffy. Luffy himself has stated on several different occasions that he doesn't want to be nor will he ever be a hero. Coby is truly the hero of the manga.
So in the end, I predict the theme will be freedom vs duty. Is it more important to be able to choose your own fate or help others? The world may never know, and I'm sure Oda won't provide that answer.Blackbeard would make sense though, the thing is, his ideals don't clash that much with luffy. In fact, his ideals are almost the same as luffy's, with dreams, and freedom being both of their biggest priorities.
But Blackbeard doesn't provide an antithesis, he provides a villain. Looking at Luffy's character, he probably wouldn't have that much against Blackbeard had Blackbeard failed to capture Ace. Sure, he might hate him. But Luffy cannot compete against his ideals. Blackbeard doesn't offer a true alternative way to achieving what Luffy will achieve, his dream. Luffy is just more charismatic and likable version of Blackbeard.
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Call me crazy, but I think it's going to be Coby for the final fight. The evidence?
1. Coby was the first person Luffy ran into in Romance Dawn. Great stories start where they end. Two seemingly immortal frenemies duel with the skills they've trained so very hard to achieve to prove their points.Coby is not seemingly immortal. And his relationship to Luffy is nothing like the rivalry you're describing, he looks up to Luffy.
I also highly doubt that they would even have a reason to fight by the end of the series. If the world order is overturned, the WG would no longer exist most likely. Or under completely different management, and pirates like Luffy would no longer be seen as dangerous. So why would they fight?2. Coby had a war moment. Why? Because Coby, not Blackbeard, is the other side of Luffy's coin
ahahaha what??
I've seen lots of crazy things posted today but wow.
No there is absolutely nothing about Coby that is the other side of Luffy's "coin".
Having a war moment has nothing to do with this.Luffy's taking the easy way out, he's selfish.
….what?
What on earth are you referring to with this?Coby isn't nearly as selfish and is putting the hard work to good use becoming a marine for true justice.
Luffy is an insanely hard worker.
In the end we will be left with a hero, but it isn't luffy. Luffy himself has stated on several different occasions that he doesn't want to be nor will he ever be a hero. Coby is truly the hero of the manga.
Luffy is the hero, whether he cares about it or not. In fact that's kind of the plot point Oda is angling toward, that the heroes are people who aren't trying to be and aren't overly beating their chests about it. In fact this has practically been the plot of every single arc.
Luffy is already a hero on like eighteen different islands.So in the end, I predict the theme will be freedom vs duty.
Duty hasn't ever ever ever been a theme in this series.
There is a theme going on in the Marines. And it's "by the books justice" versus trying to find "true justice".
And the side of that Coby is on is definitely the second one, along with Aokiji and Smoker and Garp.
The other side is where AKAINU is.
Seriously. This is the same Coby we saw overhearing in horror Akainu murdering sailors for deserting during the war. And you think he reprents unquestioned authority?
Dude, that WAS his war moment. He said "fuck duty, this isn't right what we're doing, please stop".Is it more important to be able to choose your own fate or help others?
That is absolutely not ever something Oda's asked or shown in the series.
He HAS however shown "is it better to help others or blindly follow duty", again, that WAS his war moment.
He literally flung himself in front of Akainu to stop the Marines from wiping out the pirates so that they could help their own wounded and stop more deaths when the battle was already technically won.Blackbeard would make sense though, the thing is, his ideals don't clash that much with luffy. In fact, his ideals are almost the same as luffy's, with dreams, and freedom being both of their biggest priorities.
Yeah, EXACTLY. Except Blackbeard is a guy who wants to cause chaos and suffering and has no values at all. While Luffy wants to just live his own way without bothering people and has very strong values. THAT is what makes two people, two different sides of the coin.
Oh and also Blackbeard is an actual villain and antagonist that the audience will be excited to see taken down. Coby is none of these things.
Also Coby will not have any reason at the end of the series even to fight Luffy lol.Looking at Luffy's character, he probably wouldn't have that much against Blackbeard had Blackbeard failed to capture Ace.
You're saying Luffy would have no problem with an asshole trampling over people and who doesn't value comradery or honor. Really.
Sure, he might hate him. But Luffy cannot compete against his ideals. Blackbeard doesn't offer a true alternative way to achieving what Luffy will achieve, his dream. Luffy is just more charismatic and likable version of Blackbeard.
Blackbeard is a more successful and scheming version of Luffy.
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It'll be Blackbeard or something greater that hasn't been shown yet. Why is Kaido in "other" with Crocodile (who has already lost) and Zoro's mentor instead of in his own category like how Big Mom is.
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Call me crazy, but I think it's going to be Coby for the final fight. The evidence?
1. Coby was the first person Luffy ran into in Romance Dawn. Great stories start where they end. Two seemingly immortal frenemies duel with the skills they've trained so very hard to achieve to prove their points.
2. Coby had a war moment. Why? Because Coby, not Blackbeard, is the other side of Luffy's coin. Luffy's taking the easy way out, he's selfish. Coby isn't nearly as selfish and is putting the hard work to good use becoming a marine for true justice.
In the end we will be left with a hero, but it isn't luffy. Luffy himself has stated on several different occasions that he doesn't want to be nor will he ever be a hero. Coby is truly the hero of the manga.
So in the end, I predict the theme will be freedom vs duty. Is it more important to be able to choose your own fate or help others? The world may never know, and I'm sure Oda won't provide that answer.Blackbeard would make sense though, the thing is, his ideals don't clash that much with luffy. In fact, his ideals are almost the same as luffy's, with dreams, and freedom being both of their biggest priorities.
But Blackbeard doesn't provide an antithesis, he provides a villain. Looking at Luffy's character, he probably wouldn't have that much against Blackbeard had Blackbeard failed to capture Ace. Sure, he might hate him. But Luffy cannot compete against his ideals. Blackbeard doesn't offer a true alternative way to achieving what Luffy will achieve, his dream. Luffy is just more charismatic and likable version of Blackbeard.
There's a difference between the final fight and the final villain. Uub was the last person Goku fought in DBZ, but he was not a villain, (Though he was the kindly reincarnation of the final villain, but you get the idea), and neither would Coby be in this scenario.
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@S.C.:
There's a difference between the final fight and the final villain. Uub was the last person Goku fought in DBZ, but he was not a villain, (Though he was the kindly reincarnation of the final villain, but you get the idea), and neither would Coby be in this scenario.
My main problem with the Coby people is I want to hear how possibly he would need to fight Luffy?
I think it should be clear that the peaceful pirates and the true justice Marines will eventually not be enemies at all. Alabasta being a little preview of that eventual fate. -
@Monkey:
My main problem with the Coby people is I want to hear how possibly he would need to fight Luffy?
I think it should be clear that the peaceful pirates and the true justice Marines will eventually not be enemies at all. Alabasta being a little preview of that eventual fate.Oh no, I was just correcting Champ on the difference between the final fight and final villain, you see. I myself don't believe such an encounter would finish it.
That said, I guess people think that is because they think Coby is the Garp to Luffy's Roger, but that's really more Smoker's role, I think.
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Coby is not seemingly immortal. And his relationship to Luffy is nothing like the rivalry you're describing, he looks up to Luffy.
I also highly doubt that they would even have a reason to fight by the end of the series. If the world order is overturned, the WG would no longer exist most likely. Or under completely different management, and pirates like Luffy would no longer be seen as dangerous. So why would they fight?Alas, my point. When you look up to someone like Luffy, you want to communicate with what Luffy understands best. That is combat, that is where Luffy and Coby can send a message of mutual respect towards each other and their ideals. Even if the world order is overturned, I think being a pirate is still going to be illegal. And that's just the way Luffy enjoys it. He wouldn't want it to be legal. Coby will not have Akainu style murderous feelings towards pirates, but that doesn't mean he likes them. Remember the first thing Coby admits is that he hates pirates. That sense of justice, (I incorrectly said duty) not luffy, is what drives Coby. Luffy isn't the end all be all of his life. That's Barto. And if you think Coby isn't going to be insanely strong, I'm willing to bet against that.
ahahaha what??
I've seen lots of crazy things posted today but wow.
No there is absolutely nothing about Coby that is the other side of Luffy's "coin".
Having a war moment has nothing to do with this.What drove luffy to break down crying and willing to give it all up was Ace's death. What drove Coby to break down crying willing to give it all up was Akainu's sick twisted version of justice.
Btw, I'm stealing your word. I have no idea why I used duty. That didn't make sense, you're right.
What on earth are you referring to with this?
I'm referring specifically to the Impel Down prisoners. That is a very nasty stain on Luffy's morality, which we all know simply is based on who he likes. Pretty selfish actually. Just like all of Luffy's actions. He's only selfless when he's protecting someone who he personally likes. Not a hero.
You're saying Luffy would have no problem with an asshole trampling over people and who doesn't value comradery or honor. Really.
Exactly. As long as it doesn't affect him or someone he has decided to protect, then it's out of his hands.
Also Coby will not have any reason at the end of the series even to fight Luffy lol
That's pretty bold. Considering the first real admission Coby ever stated was that he hates pirates. Maybe Luffy will give up the pirate life? That is a distinct possibility. Luffy may even die. We know his gears are taking their toll on his body. I doubt Oda would make such a big deal out of the fact and then simply ignore it after Enies Lobby.
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I think that Coby will have a big role towards the end. Something like his role at Marineford.
He might be the one who deals the final blow to Akainu. Or contributes to Akainu's defeat in some way.
He COULD be the one who arrests Luffy, or tries to arrest Luffy, at the very VERY end, if Oda goes for that ending.And he's obviously going to help reform the marines after everything is said and done.
But will he have an actual, full-on fight against Luffy, the Pirate King? Prooobably not. -
I think that Coby will have a big role towards the end. Something like his role at Marineford.
He might be the one who deals the final blow to Akainu. Or contributes to Akainu's defeat in some way.
He COULD be the one who arrests Luffy, or tries to arrest Luffy, at the very VERY end, if Oda goes for that ending.And he's obviously going to help reform the marines after everything is said and done.
But will he have an actual, full-on fight against Luffy, the Pirate King? Prooobably not.He is powerful enough to warrant a full on character design change. One that wasn't really properly explained. That's why I think he won't get a devil fruit, Luffy's creativity will be matched by Coby's logic based style of fighting. I'm guessing coby is going to end up being a master strategist with Garp level strength and martial arts skills.
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Alas, my point. When you look up to someone like Luffy, you want to communicate with what Luffy understands best. That is combat, that is where Luffy and Coby can send a message of mutual respect towards each other and their ideals.
Uh no, I'm pretty sure Coby's method of communicating and relating to Luffy is based around Luffy's willpower and goalsetting. That's what Coby emulates or tries to.
You're just kind of making up some abstract idea about communicating through fists that has never been shown between Luffy and Coby ever.Even if the world order is overturned, I think being a pirate is still going to be illegal.
You haven't familiarized yourself much at all with the dominate theories regarding the end of the series have you.
I'd think that is extremely important in a thread like this?
I'll pose you the same question I did years and years ago to the rest of the forum.
Why is a pirate crew like Luffy's criminalized by virtue of existing? They don't steal, they don't murder, they don't do anything like that. They don't even really annoy average people. They just float around and explore things, eat local cuisine, and sightsee.
It is implied that quite a few pirates do this, like Shanks. And probably Roger.
For all intents and purposes they aren't even literal pirates.
So why are they criminialized?
Why do you think the WG is afraid of harmless (hell, HELPful) groups of people heading toward Raftel? See the answer right there?And that's just the way Luffy enjoys it. He wouldn't want it to be legal.
Luffy doesn't care one way or the other about legality. He just wants to live free.
Coby will not have Akainu style murderous feelings towards pirates, but that doesn't mean he likes them. Remember the first thing Coby admits is that he hates pirates. That sense of justice, (I incorrectly said duty) not luffy, is what drives Coby. Luffy isn't the end all be all of his life. That's Barto. And if you think Coby isn't going to be insanely strong, I'm willing to bet against that.
Remember the first thing Coby and Luffy involved themselves in? It was a marine unit with a horribly corrupt leader far worse than Alvida.
You have pretty much completely read Coby and internal struggle of the Marines wrong.
All this talk of true justice entirely refutes what you imagine to be there. The struggle and goal of Coby, Smoker, Tashigi, and Kuzan is to pursue a sensible justice that actually reflects the facts on the ground and not the iron duty bound absolute justice. This is the conflict in the Marines, Oda's all but hammered it into our heads so I have no idea how you missed it. Coby is CLEARLY on the true justice side. The side that would make a distinction between pirates like the Strawhats and pirates like Arlong.
Do you not remember the finale of Alabasta with Tashigi in Alubarna? She's on the Coby side of equation.What drove luffy to break down crying and willing to give it all up was Ace's death.
Yes, the two times Luffy has been in breakdown mode were when he failed to protect other people.
Whereas his own imminent death just made him smile.
This is the guy you're accusing of being selfish???What drove Coby to break down crying willing to give it all up was Akainu's sick twisted version of justice.
No mostly it was the same as Luffy, he hated that there were Marines lying around dying that could be saved, and Marines who might still get killed, all because Akainu was trying to kill as many pirates as possible even after winning the battle.
So really it was the same thing as Luffy.I'm referring specifically to the Impel Down prisoners. That is a very nasty stain on Luffy's morality, which we all know simply is based on who he likes.
Luffy didn't let the Level 6 prisoners out. He only let two people out of level 6, Crocodile and Jimbei. Everyone else that got out with him either went with Iva, or went with Buggy.
The level 6 prisoners were let out by BLACKBEARD. Those are the ones that Sengoku was freaking out about and that the government covered up the escape of.
BB told all the cellmates to kill eachother and that he would take the winners, but only three (Pizarro, Vasco, Catarina) went with him.Exactly. As long as it doesn't affect him or someone he has decided to protect, then it's out of his hands.
The contrast of "I want to protect everyone" and "I want to protect my friends, who happened to be nearly everyone I meet anywhere I go" is a really really weak contrast for some big deal final battle lol.
That's pretty bold. Considering the first real admission Coby ever stated was that he hates pirates.
Yes, the young naive boy said he hated every type of this group. Before the mini-arc where his idol organization proved to be more complex and morally gray than he thought.
This organization whose members with half a heart have been shown to constantly question what they thought they knew about the world moral order.
That's what the people you're talking about right?
I really thought the Punk Hazard finale would be fresher in your mind. -
Uh no, I'm pretty sure Coby's method of communicating and relating to Luffy is based around Luffy's willpower and goalsetting. That's what Coby emulates or tries to.
You're just kind of making up some abstract idea about communicating through fists that has never been shown between Luffy and Coby ever.Yeah, you're right. Minus one big important fact, Luffy punched Coby in order to join the marines. He didn't dream coby into joining the marines, Luffy punched him. If you think Luffy is deeper than combat and friends, i don't know what manga you've been reading.
The contrast of "I want to protect everyone" and "I want to protect my friends, who happened to be nearly everyone I meet anywhere I go" is a really really weak contrast for some big deal final battle lol.
Coby is selfless and will help someone he doesn't like just for the fact. That's something luffy can never do.
Yes, the young naive boy said he hated every type of this group. Before the mini-arc where his idol organization proved to be more complex and morally gray than he thought.
This organization whose members with half a heart have been shown to constantly questionwhat they thoughtthey knew aboutthe worldmoral order.
That's what the people you're talking about right?Indeed it is. Just because something needs serious work (coby is weak and needs serious work) doesn't mean it's worth throwing out. Coby almost is a metaphor for the marines. We start the series with two enemies, who become friends against the odds, but still can't stand each other's ways. That's life.
Since when did Oda state he was going to create world peace at the end of this series? There's always going to be problems, that seems like a theme in this manga. And life.
As long as they are called Pirates, they will be opposed by the marines.
No mostly it was the same as Luffy, he hated that there were Marines lying around dying that could be saved, and Marines who might still get killed, all because Akainu was trying to kill as many pirates as possible even after winning the battle.
So really it was the same thing as Luffy.I'm afraid that wasn't quite how I read it. In the end, Coby didn't believe in Akainu's style of capturing pirates, not worrying about the loss of marines. It's not about winning a battle. And you cannot deny that the part Coby played was any bit less significant than anything Luffy did in the war. It may have been even more so.
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Yeah, you're right. Minus one big important fact, Luffy punched Coby in order to join the marines. He didn't dream coby into joining the marines, Luffy punched him. If you think Luffy is deeper than combat and friends, i don't know what manga you've been reading.
Did you completely miss the context of that scene?? Heck you don't even remember the physical actions right.
Coby is warned by Zoro that he might not be able to enter the Marines if they think he's been too close in contact with pirates (Alvida).
Coby is scared to do anything, so Luffy starts blabbing to the Marine chief about Coby's time on Alvida's ship, in order to goad Coby into doing something.
So COBY PUNCHES LUFFY to shut him up, to which Luffy beats the shit out of him.
Making it absolutely clear in the process to the Marines that Coby is not a pirate and is not comrades with Luffy and Zoro, thus making it possible for him to become a Marine.The whole thing was Luffy helping Coby fool the Marines about his past with Alvida. Coby even mentions to himself that he had to depend on Luffy again to bring that little fight around in front of the Marines, and this annoys him and motivates him more.
There's no communicating going on.
Coby is selfless and will help someone he doesn't like just for the fact. That's something luffy can never do.
They're slightly different but basically on the same exact side. This isn't even a unique factor of Coby btw, lest we forget all the other good Marines.
Oda's setting up a thematic thing here (non-Coby specific) regarding how something in the world order doesn't really make that much sense that these two types are enemies.Indeed it is. Just because something needs serious work (coby is weak and needs serious work) doesn't mean it's worth throwing out. Coby almost is a metaphor for the marines. We start the series with two enemies, who become friends against the odds, but still can't stand each other's ways. That's life.
Please show me where Coby has ever showed even the slightest disdain to Luffy's ways of sailing around, having a good time, and kicking the ass of really awful people.
You are entirely imagining such a thing.
For christ sake, Smoker and Tashigi just came that much closer to wondering why they even have anything against the Strawhats, and you think Coby won't move on that?
You're ignoring the story.
For godsakes tell me you didn't notice the green text I typed there and forgot the pages I linked to.Since when did Oda state he was going to create world peace at the end of this series? There's always going to be problems, that seems like a theme in this manga. And life.
What is this in response to? It doesn't seem to have anything to do with anything I said.
As long as they are called Pirates, they will be opposed by the marines.
Congrats, that's Absolute Justice. That isn't what Coby believes in or supports.
I'm afraid that wasn't quite how I read it.
THOSE ARE LITERALLY COBYS STATED REASONS LOL
In the end, Coby didn't believe in Akainu's style of capturing pirates, not worrying about the loss of marines. It's not about winning a battle.
You are arguing against what Coby said!!!
He specifically mentions the battle is won! So there's no need to do what Akainu is doing! He says that!And you cannot deny that the part Coby played was any bit less significant than anything Luffy did in the war. It may have been even more so.
Not in the sense you imagine it, since you've taken to arguing against the character you claim to understand's own words?
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The whole thing was Luffy helping Coby fool the Marines about his past with Alvida. Coby even mentions to himself that he had to depend on Luffy again to bring that little fight around in front of the Marines, and this annoys him and motivates him more.
There's no communicating going on.
Are you serious? Do you know what communication is? It doesn't have to be words, it can be FISTS. Luffy told Coby to follow his dreams by…beating him up.
Congrats, that's Absolute Justice. That isn't what Coby believes in or supports.
All they have to do is ditch the word Pirate. It's not that the marines want to make pirates their friends. Who in gods name would think Coby wants the seas to be sailed by the likes of Arlong, or Blackbeard? Do you know what a pirate is? I'll clue you in, it doesn't mean peaceful adventurer. Luffy is going to end up halting a violent subculture in the world of one piece. If you just want to go out and explore and do legal things…why call yourself a pirate? Self-defeating logic.
Please show me where Coby has ever showed even the slightest disdain to Luffy's ways of sailing around, having a good time, and kicking the ass of really awful people.
You are entirely imagining such a thing.
For christ sake, Smoker and Tashigi just came that much closer to wondering why they even have anything against the Strawhats, and you think Coby won't move on that?
You're ignoring the story.
For godsakes tell me you didn't notice the green text I typed there and forgot the pages I linked toSince when was Luffy a measure for ALL PIRATES? He is an anomaly, like a select few other adventurers calling themselves pirates to spite the current World Government's crimes.
You are arguing against what Coby said!!!
He specifically mentions the battle is won! So there's no need to do what Akainu is doing! He says that!Coby says the battle is won because he cannot stand to see more people die. Clearly Akainu was the bigger villain in this case than pirates, that just means Coby has a strong sense of moral justice. Coby just realized that the machine is broken. This is a big deal for his development. Coby will apprehend pirates alive, like a hero. Because that is his character.
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Are you serious? Do you know what communication is? It doesn't have to be words, it can be FISTS. Luffy told Coby to follow his dreams by…beating him up.
No he didn't. Luffy had already told Coby to do that, through words, several times.
In fact discussing that is exactly what leads into the concern about the Marines finding out about Alvida.
I guess Luffy communicates to the Marine chief guy with the beard by beating up Coby lol. But that's not what you meant clearly.
You need to reread that whole scene.All they have to do is ditch the word Pirate.
Calling themselves pirates doesn't make them commit crimes lol.
It's not that the marines want to make pirates their friends.
PIRATES ARE NOT AN ORGANIZATION OR MONOLITHIC GROUP.
Seriously, you can't even begin to have this conversation and talk about pirates that way. It makes absolutely no sense.Who in gods name would think Coby wants the seas to be sailed by the likes of Arlong, or Blackbeard? Do you know what a pirate is? I'll clue you in, it doesn't mean peaceful adventurer.
Hmm, it sounds like the Marine you actually want to be the foil to Luffy is this one.
I mean you keep saying the name "Coby"? The one with the nuanced view of pirates? And the world? At this point? Because he is assuredly not the same person he was in chapter…2 lol?
The one who is morally aligned with other people with increasingly nuanced views of the same caliber? Like Kuzan...Smoker...Tashigi...the deceased Jaguar D Saul...
These people don't have black and white views of pirates and justice? And the government they serve?But again, this guy is really big on the whole "ALL PIRATES ARE BAD, IF IT"S A PIRATE ITS BAD, DESTROY IT TO PROTECT PEOPLE. NEVER QUESTION THIS ABSOLUTE MINDSET."
Luffy is going to end up halting a violent subculture in the world of one piece.
…the World Government?
If you just want to go out and explore and do legal things…why call yourself a pirate? Self-defeating logic.
Probably because Pirates in One Piece are different from Pirates in the real world. And you need to look at the term in the series with an open mind, and stop clinging desperately to an iron idea of what it means. Or I should say perhaps, an absolute idea.
Anyway that whole premise is retarded. If you call yourself a bandit irl and never ever commit a crime do the cops come to your door?
Since when was Luffy a measure for ALL PIRATES?
He is a measure for a certain type of pirate. I've never mentioned "all pirates", you're the only one keeping this in black and white absolute terms.
Oh as for the measure of the OTHER type of pirate? Wonder who that could be…He is an anomaly, like a select few other adventurers calling themselves pirates to spite the current World Government's crimes.
Alright the bolded is another thing you've completely made up.
As for "select few" we've seen plenty of crews that seemed darned harmless. The Foxys, Lola, various Supernovas, Shanks, Roger, even the Whitebeard's never were shown as criminals. Or Ace prior to that.Coby says the battle is won because he cannot stand to see more people die.
Or he says it because the battle is won? Ace is dead and so is Whitebeard and the remaining pirates are retreating.
He never mentions concern about the dead or dying pirates btw. -
No he didn't. Luffy had already told Coby to do that, through words, several times.
In fact discussing that is exactly what leads into the concern about the Marines finding out about Alvida.
I guess Luffy communicates to the Marine chief guy with the beard by beating up Coby lol. But that's not what you meant clearly.
You need to reread that whole scene.You keep arguing this garbage about what Luffy said, but i present a fact. And the fact is, Luffy's fists are what propelled Coby into the marines.
And he does communicate with the guy in the beard lol. He says: "Coby is not my friend and therefore not a pirate."
Probably because Pirates in One Piece are different from Pirates in the real world. And you need to look at the term in the series with an open mind, and stop clinging desperately to an iron idea of what it means. Or I should say perhaps, an **absolute idea.
Anyway that whole premise is retarded. If you call yourself a bandit irl and never ever commit a crime do the cops come to your door?**
Are you allowed to scream bomb on an airplane? No, because it's a threat to everyones safety. Are you allowed to hoist a jolly roger? No, because it's a threat to everyones safety. Inevitably, there will still be "bad" pirates around. Is it worth making everyone uncomfortable just so that you can "adventure" and not commit crimes? Unlikely…
You seem to have this crazy idea that pirates are good people. LOL.
Alright the bolded is another thing you've completely made up.
As for "select few" we've seen plenty of crews that seemed darned harmless. The Foxys, Lola, various Supernovas, Shanks, Roger, even the Whitebeard's never were shown as criminals. Or Ace prior to that.So you don't think that being a pirate is in spite of the world government? Really? Fisher Tiger and the Sunny Pirates? Just one example. I could dig, but I'm lazy.
Do you think that the marineford was the midpoint of the series? It's funny how a character that we haven't seen since the beginning winds up at this war, this monumental change of an era. Then he plays a major role in it. It's almost like he's about to undergo another dramatic change. He's so important that he needed to be there at the second most intense part of the story.
…the World Government?
No. Pirates.
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Helmeppo as final enemy makes more sense than Coby.
Much more sense.BB as final villain, it's something that imho has to build up a lot through little quick skirmishes here and there.
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@Monkey:
WHAT idea of swordsman choosing to cut or not cut. Sounds like someone read a shitty translation of the Mr.1 fight!
What is a good/the best translation of the Mr 1 fight available?
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Helmeppo as final enemy makes more sense than Coby.
Much more sense.BB as final villain, it's something that imho has to build up a lot through little quick skirmishes here and there.
Neither makes any sense whatsoever.
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What is a good/the best translation of the Mr 1 fight available?
I'm going off the Viz one, I shouldn't even have to explain that the garden variety scans most people read of the series are horrible until….somewhere in Skypiea.
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@Monkey:
Yeah, almost definitely that would be when it happens. It fits with the idea that the BB people take out Shanks and his crew.
NO! >8C Horrible human being, STILL going on about that! NOOOOOO I say >B(
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You keep arguing this garbage about what Luffy said, but i present a fact. And the fact is, Luffy's fists are what propelled Coby into the marines.
Except you said they "communicate with their fists".
You're saying they're going to fight because…..because.....one time Luffy fooled a Marine by making it look like Coby and him hated eachother? Because they were fighting?
Also no, the final thing Coby did to get in the Marines was yell at some random Marine who stepped forward to suggest they shouldn't take him cuz he might be a spy. Luffy had already left at that point.And he does communicate with the guy in the beard lol. He says: "Coby is not my friend and therefore not a pirate."
Yes, with the guy with the beard. If the guy with the beard going to be the final villain now?
At last, the true final foe revealed.Are you allowed to scream bomb on an airplane? No, because it's a threat to everyones safety.
No my comparison actually worked, yours isn't the same at all. Declaring yourself a thing and not doing anything.
Walking around town saying "hey guys I'm a thief". Like Luffy sailing around calling himself a pirate.Are you allowed to hoist a jolly roger? No, because it's a threat to everyones safety.
Except it's not.
Inevitably, there will still be "bad" pirates around. Is it worth making everyone uncomfortable just so that you can "adventure" and not commit crimes? Unlikely…
Yeah, you seriously don't give the remotest shit about Coby. You're talking in Absolute Justice terms and have been from the start.
When has Luffy made anyone uncomfortable, Usopp and his boy squad for three seconds? The Drum militia?You seem to have this crazy idea that pirates are good people. LOL.
Why are you refusing to read the manga, it's insane. It's like you only read it once, really quickly. And unshockingly have barely grasped anything. You misremember scenes, you've failed to grasp ANYTHING about what the good Marines actually think say and do, including the character you're obsessing over, you've even somehow failed to grasp the different types of pirates, and thus the complexity of what a pirate is in the series.
What's more you refuse to listen to the fact that there might be complexity that you missed out on. You are desperate to continue seeing things in stark black and whites, and yet claim to understand the character who is at the head of questioning traditional ideas in the series within the government?
I posted six different examples of Marines questioning the justice idea and who their real enemy is, from Tashigi, Smoker, Saul, Aokiji, to G-8 in their entirity? And you literally just ignored that.
Basically you just think Coby is Akainu minus the bloodlust, which shows you have extremely terrible reading comprehension.So you don't think that being a pirate is in spite of the world government? Really? Fisher Tiger and the Sunny Pirates? Just one example. I could dig, but I'm lazy.
What do you MEAN "in spite of the world government"?
Do you think that the marineford was the midpoint of the series?
The climax of Act One.
It's funny how a character that we haven't seen since the beginning winds up at this war, this monumental change of an era.
Alright so you haven't reaad the series like more than one terrible speed read time.
Apparently you don't know Coby showed up at the end of Water7 lol.
Also showing up at the war is something a billion characters did hahahahaha. Including Blackbeard.Then he plays a major role in it. It's almost like he's about to undergo another dramatic change. He's so important that he needed to be there at the second most intense part of the story.
Like Blackbeard?
Oh and what was Coby doing? Was he taking a stand against pirates? Oh no! He wasn't! He was taking a stand against the Absolute Justice minded Marines! Almost as if Oda is positioning him in the internal conflict of the Marines between Absolute Justice and True Justice people! Almost as if his destiny lies in there! But since you have no interest in that extremely un-subtle sub-plot Oda has thrown in our faces time after time I guess you don't care.No. Pirates.
Luffy isn't going to eliminate piracy just by ending the golden age.
He is however destined to topple the current world government by inadvertently bringing Robin to the Rio Poneglyph. -
NO! >8C Horrible human being, STILL going on about that! NOOOOOO I say >B(
It's going to happen, Chrissie. Inevitably. The most we can hope for as senseless fanatics is some moving pictures that can be used as campaign material.
But, to be honest, I'm strictly with Zephos on this one. I mean, for crying out loud, if you can't appreciate the intricacy of the clear thematic build-up and the gravity of that event as far as its effect on the overall plot and the main characters is concerned… As sad as it is going to be for someone with emotional affection towards those few easygoing and likeable fictional characters, it's absolute skillfully crafted beauty is something far superior and not to be ignored. A life where you can't sit back and admire something like that in silent awe is a sad life.
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It's going to happen, Chrissie. Inevitably. The most we can hope for as senseless fanatics is some moving pictures that can be used as campaign material.
But, to be honest, I'm strictly with Zephos on this one. I mean, for crying out loud, if you can't appreciate the intricacy of the clear thematic build-up and the gravity of that event as far as its effect on the overall plot and the main characters is concerned… As sad as it is going to be for someone with emotional affection towards those few easygoing and likeable fictional characters, it's absolute skillfully crafted beauty is something far superior and not to be ignored. A life where you can't sit back and admire something like that in silent awe is a sad life.
Yeah, this is how I feel about Blackbeard, too.
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It's going to happen, Chrissie. Inevitably. The most we can hope for as senseless fanatics is some moving pictures that can be used as campaign material.
But, to be honest, I'm strictly with Zephos on this one. I mean, for crying out loud, if you can't appreciate the intricacy of the clear thematic build-up and the gravity of that event as far as its effect on the overall plot and the main characters is concerned… As sad as it is going to be for someone with emotional affection towards those few easygoing and likeable fictional characters, it's absolute skillfully crafted beauty is something far superior and not to be ignored. A life where you can't sit back and admire something like that in silent awe is a sad life.
No. ALL OF YOU CAN F- OFF! SHANKS AND BENN AND YASOPP AND LUCKY WILL LIVE AND PARTY FOREVEEEEEEEEEEER! YOU JERKS! BULLIES!
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You're saying they're going to fight because…..because.....one time Luffy fooled a Marine by making it look like Coby and him hated eachother? Because they were fighting?
This has set the tone of the true nature of their friendship. Pirates will always be illegal. Marines cannot allow that. Don't go off on some "you can't understand absolute vs moral (or whatever) justice," type of rant please.
I posted six different examples of Marines questioning the justice idea and who their real enemy is, from Tashigi, Smoker, Saul, Aokiji, to G-8 in their entirity? And you literally just ignored that.
Well…just because they see something is wrong doesn't mean that has to do with the final fight. You keep confusing what the climax is going to be about. It's freedom vs order. Not pirates vs marines. Pirates are the only true form of freedom due to the oppression of the world government. Topple that and there is no longer a need to become a pirate for the type of people you describe. No doubt since ROGER BEGAN a PIRATE ERA the story will end with LUFFY ENDING the PIRATE ERA.
Yeah, you seriously don't give the remotest shit about Coby. You're talking in Absolute Justice terms and have been from the start.
When has Luffy made anyone uncomfortable, Usopp and his boy squad for three seconds? The Drum militia?Why do you keep using Luffy as an example? We already agreed he's an anomaly. I'm sorry if you can't remember all the scared crowds screaming "pirates" the million times it happened, but people don't really care for them. Because they tend to be violent psychopaths. Crocodile, Blackbeard, Caribou, Arlong and many more are all fantastic examples of why being a pirate isn't really a good thing.
It's cute that you think that the marines need to give into piracy when it is in fact the other way around. Once there is a fair Marine system, and a fair World Order, there will be NO NEED to declare yourself a pirate. So if you do, that just makes you stupid, and liable to be arrested.
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No. ALL OF YOU CAN F- OFF! SHANKS AND BENN AND YASOPP AND LUCKY WILL LIVE AND PARTY FOREVEEEEEEEEEEER! YOU JERKS! BULLIES!
Oh, but they will always be there partying? Who said they wouldn't?
It's just going to be… in our hearts.
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Well…just because they see something is wrong doesn't mean that has to do with the final fight. You keep confusing what the climax is going to be about. It's freedom vs order. Not pirates vs marines.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure that "pirates vs marines" is the opposite of what MK thinks the final fight will be about.
Also your entire spiel makes you sound like an OP villain TBQH.
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So jozu was created just to be a tool of the perhaps theory that Shillew is going to kill Mihawk because of the diamond fruit because of something that mr.1 said.
I don't know :/ that seems so different from one piece (but you are the ones that read at more time so maybe i'm just saying stupidity) were almost everyone gets to shine one way or another.
It seems to me a big waiste of characthers and one of then is the final target of one of the main characthers(mihawk) just because of hyping the main antagonists it something I expect from naruto that waiste promising characthers like that and not something that One piece would doo.
I'm already prepared to be counter argumented since you guys have more years than me with this series and understanded better than me and it will depend on the way it will be submitted but yeah to me it still fells like a bad taste in the mouth. :/ -
Yeah, I'm pretty sure that "pirates vs marines" is the opposite of what MK thinks the final fight will be about.
Also your entire spiel makes you sound like an OP villain TBQH.
And that's because…Marines are villains to Pirates. Pirates are villains to everyone else. So who's the real villain?
Also Monkey King, you're crazy throwing out my bomb on an airplane comparison. It is so clearly valid to raising the Jolly Roger that I would be very interested in your reasoning that it is not in fact a fair comparison.
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@Monkey:
I'm going off the Viz one, I shouldn't even have to explain that the garden variety scans most people read of the series are horrible until….somewhere in Skypiea.
well … the Viz Scans are hit and miss early on as I see it but in any case ...
I don't see how this 'swordsmen who can not cut what they don't want to, can cut anything they do want to' interpretation is made nonexistent by the Viz translation. Because ... it's ... what it says.
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Everything started at Loguetown. Everything is ended there.
In Luffy's era everything started with Coby got saved by Luffy and everything will be ended by Coby defeating Luffy. Coby didnt say the admiral thing for nothing after all -
Everything started at Loguetown. Everything is ended there.
In Luffy's era everything started with Coby got saved by Luffy and everything will be ended by Coby defeating Luffy. Coby didnt say the admiral thing for nothing after allI find this likely.
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This has set the tone of the true nature of their friendship. Pirates will always be illegal. Marines cannot allow that. Don't go off on some "you can't understand absolute vs moral (or whatever) justice," type of rant please.
Would you like me to repost the six instances off the top of my head of Oda screaming into a megaphone about "THE CURRENT WORLD ORDER IS NONSENSE, AND THE GOOD PEOPLE RECOGNIZE IT, AND THE GOOD MARINES AND GOOD PIRATES HAVE MORE IN COMMON THAN APART". There is NO indication of an "always", Oda has done nothing but cast doubt on that since the very first arc with the Marines. Every Marine with a good heart has been shown at some point to doubt their orders when it comes to Luffy and the Strawhats, if not outright go against orders.
The current world order does not have a saint. There are pirates who are evil, there are people in the government who are evil.
There are pirates who raid and pillage towns. There are an entire caste of people in the government who the Marines are beholden to who enslave and murder people completely beyond the law.
Every single post I've repeated this point in so many words, and every single time you've completely ignored it.It's seriously like you haven't even read this series.
Well…just because they see something is wrong doesn't mean that has to do with the final fight. You keep confusing what the climax is going to be about. It's freedom vs order.
The war that would launch from the Poneglyph is going to reveal that the Government, the Government that massacres entire islands and is beholden to the World Nobles, is built on something impure from the start. It's a reveal that should finally reveal to people interested in true justice, that their bosses are assholes. It should be the straw that breaks that particular camels back.
Oda is SO OBVIOUSLY setting up a wedge in the Marines. How can you possibly ignore that. He's even given us terms, True Justice and Absolute Justice. You ignore this completely.
He had Aokiji and Akainu literally duel over the future of the Marines, you ignore this completely.
The way you are talking, the Marines will not splinter at some point. With True Justice going against the Absolute Justice still hanging on to the old order of the Gorusei and World Nobles. Coby will again OBVIOUSLY be on the True Justice side.
And the True Justice side will have every reason in the world to side with Luffy.MEANWHILE the dark side of the pirates? Of freedom? HAS a representative. It's Blackbeard. And Luffy will obviously be opposing him, something, again, the ever increasing list of Marines picking to side with the Strawhats when reality looks them in the face, will likely mean Coby, Kuzan, Tashigi, Smoker and friends will again be on Luffy's side.
Like in Alabasta, like in Punk Hazard.
What do YOU think of Tashigi deciding to tell Luffy where Crocodile went?
What do YOU think of G-8 teaming up with the Strawhats against Ceasar?Pirates are the only true form of freedom due to the oppression of the world government. Topple that and there is no longer a need to become a pirate for the type of people you describe.
This is again, something you're completely imagining. There has never been ANY suggestion that people like Luffy and Shanks had to declare themselves Pirates to live as they do. None. Not a single one. Point to me where the Government has ever stated anything like "no sailing on the seas and having fun!".
"Pirates" in One Piece are vagabonds. When Oda says "pirate" he means "vagabond".
Just like in real life this can range from stupid brutal bandits, to enlightened philosophical sportsmen.
Have you ever read the One Piece pilots?
One of them has two different categories of pirates in it.
Morgania and Peace Mains.
The Morgania are the violent evil pirates. The Peace Mains are the Shanks style ones.
Oda decided at some point not to include these terms in the final version of One Piece. Probably because it's kind of overly simplistic and silly to throw names on it, it's much better to let such differences speak for themselves then having silly categories.
Also he probably assumed the audience was smart enough to see the differences anyway and seeing the issue, without him holding their hands like little children with silly words like "Peace Main".
But alas, you seem to have needed these words to figure out there's a ideological divide among this group of vagabonds.Why do you keep using Luffy as an example? We already agreed he's an anomaly.
ahahahaha I NEVER agreed to that.
I'm sorry if you can't remember all the scared crowds screaming "pirates" the million times it happened,
Tell that to the Fishmen and other islands under Whitebeard's protection. Or Water7, Jaya, Shabondy and Loguetown who are economically thriving largely because of pirates.
Or tell that to Ohara lolll. Oh wait!Because they tend to be violent psychopaths.
Let me run that one by you again.
The four islands? Loguetown? Jaya? Water7? Saobody?
Three of the more populated cities and a town? Who are totally chill and adapted to the pirate age.
In Loguetown the swords seller Zoro met LITERALLY COMPLAINED about Smoker rounding up so many pirates because he was losing money.
In Water7 the first civilian Luffy and crew run into is some guy in a small boat, he sees pirates and does what? Says "Oh hey guys, are you pirates? Well you better dock over there to avoid the law." in the most casual manner in the world.
Meanwhile the people in Shabondy are HELL of more terrified about the government than pirates!It's cute that you think that the marines need to give into piracy
WHEN DID I EVER SAY THAT.
The only reason half of this argument is flying over your head is because you're too simple minded to understand the two different kinds of pirates without Oda holding your hand with simplistic terms like Peacemain and Morgania.
when it is in fact the other way around.
Once there is a fair Marine system, and a fair World Order, there will be NO NEED to declare yourself a pirate.
There will always be vagabonds and drifters. It has nothing to do with the government.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Everything started at Loguetown. Everything is ended there.
In Luffy's era everything started with Coby got saved by Luffy and everything will be ended by Coby defeating Luffy. Coby didnt say the admiral thing for nothing after allWhat is this, babies first symbolism?
Everything started with a 7 year old Luffy stabbing himself in the face, so everything will end with a…27 year old Luffy stabbing himself in the face.
DURRR
Just because sometimes there is cyclical symbolism, doesn't mean there always is.
Like gee, perhaps Oda setting up Luffy to make a Marine friend near the start, is him planting the seeds of a plot where they both help change the world for the better where they don't have to be enemies? Thought of that? -
So what is your best prediction for an end villain scenario based on the facts thus far?
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Luffy's era didnt start with stabbing himself. When he meets with coby ( remember barrel thing ) his era started. After leaving that Dadan's place Luffy's era started. I want to write more about your baby thing but my english sux and dont have a time. see ya
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So what is your best prediction for an end villain scenario based on the facts thus far?
I've only posted it like eight times in this thread. That it's Blackbeard. If you want the specifics I'm tired of repeating them, do a thread search for my posts.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Luffy's era didnt start with stabbing himself. When he meets with coby ( remember barrel thing ) his era started.
Why does his era start there.
And not when he punched the sea monster.So the series "starts" with Luffy punching the sea monster…so it will end with him punching a sea monster?
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The series started when Gold Roger was born, and it'll end with Luffy birthing a brand new, adult Gold Roger
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MonkeyKing why dont you think more logically ? Sea monster ? Really ? …
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MonkeyKing why dont you think more logically ? Sea monster ? Really ? …
The point is that what moment one considers THE BEGINNING OF THE ERA is entirely arbitrary.
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Everything started at Loguetown. Everything is ended there.
In Luffy's era everything started with Coby got saved by Luffy and everything will be ended by Coby defeating Luffy. Coby didnt say the admiral thing for nothing after allIf the story ends with Luffy being defeated by Coby, he's not really the King of the Pirates, is he?
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MonkeyKing why dont you think more logically ? Sea monster ? Really ? …
That's the point, I'm pointing out how the "point where Luffy's arc began" is entirely arbitrary. There IS no secure point that can be said to be THE starting point.
And even if we did find one, there's no rule anywhere that says Oda has to make it literally a cyclical story.
I'm so tired of people who are like engineer type minds trying to figure out storytelling the same way. There is no rule book.
When authors do things like cyclical storytelling they do so for a reason.One Piece is written with lots of shades of change and "new eras". BOTH Luffy and Coby are not going to set out and end up exactly like Garp and Roger 22 years ago.
Coby is clearly on the side of reform in the Marines. Luffy is clearly going to SURPASS the Pirate King, not just redo his quest. Meaning he will actually be able to do something with the information on Raftel.
They are on the same side of changing the world for the better.
It ending with them as enemies (even as friendly enemies ala Roger/Garp), is absolutely shortsighted thinking. -
The dudes working with Smoky are the G-5 not the G-8. I do remember Smoky telling them to let the Strawhats roam free for the time being.
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The story is not cyclic guys but it's built in a way that you might recognize similarities between Roger and Luffy.
Roger had Garp, Luffy has Coby
Roger had Rayleigh, Luffy has Zoro
Roger had Whitebeard, Luffy has Law
Though Luffy, Coby, Zoro and Law are different persons and have different characters than Roger, Garp, Zoro and Whitebeard AND it's 2 different worlds, 2 different eras, so the relations will pan out in a different way.If we must presume that there will be a cyclical element it's the Straw hat, nothing else.
The other relationships hints you at parallels between 2 lifes, just that.Oh…and about the guy that said that my Helmeppo pick didn't make sense...one hands clap for recognizing sarcasm :)
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Hehe, has anyone already pointed out that the final villain could be the Mother Of Devilfruit (MOD). MOD can be a colossal creature discovered by the 20 kingdoms to combat the ancient weapons, then she is sealed for the horrors she brought. History has been erased to deny her existence. The act of sealing her produce an interesting side effect: the spawning of devil fruits across the seas.
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Hehe, has anyone already pointed out that the final villain could be the Mother Of Devilfruit (MOD). MOD can be a colossal creature discovered by the 20 kingdoms to combat the ancient weapons, then she is sealed for the horrors she brought. History has been erased to deny her existence. The act of sealing her produce an interesting side effect: the spawning of devil fruits across the seas.
Nope .
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So by giant creature, do you mean a giant tree?
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Isn't it so obvious that the final villain is Blackbeard?