Supreme Kai?!? Where's Kibito Kai? They're now separated from the fusion?
No, Toriyama just forgot. Yamamuro Tadayoshi's KibitoKai design is still used in the film.
Supreme Kai?!? Where's Kibito Kai? They're now separated from the fusion?
No, Toriyama just forgot. Yamamuro Tadayoshi's KibitoKai design is still used in the film.
Even still, there's no evidence leading to the idea that anyone in base form can beat Freiza. In fact, there's more evidence pointing to the exact opposite. (I'm not including GT, because lol no)
Goku and Vegeta had to turn super saiyan in "Yo! Son Goku and Friends return!" to deflect the blast of Avo and Cado and he was only freeza level.
There are a couple of things hinting at base Goku being stronger than Frieza, such as when the 3 strongest warriors are chosen to fight Babadi's men: base Goku, Gohan and Vegeta are chosen by Babidi hinting that their stronger than Piccolo who's stronger than Frieza.
Chapter: 447 (DBZ 253), P11.1-3
Context: talking about how Yamu and Spopovitch were followed by Goku and co.
Dabra: “Seems they’re trying to hide from us…In total…there are 7. We can’t use Kaioshin and Kibito’s energy…But 3 of them seem to have marvelous energy…”
Babidi: “Looks like it. It seems that we’ll get more than enough energy from just those 3…Kuhihihi…To think that we’d be able to revive Majin Boo so quickly…”
Chapter: 447 (DBZ 253), P11.4
Context: talking about how Yamu and Spopovitch were followed by Goku and co.
Babidi: “Get rid of the trash besides those 3 [Goku, Gohan, Vegeta], then return to the spaceship right away. That way, I think those 3 will fly into a rage and follow you inside for sure.”
There's also base Kid Trunks fighting on par with Android 18 (who is also stronger than Frieza) in a restrictive costume and Piccolo admitting that the Supreme Kai is stronger than him and the Supreme Kai was scared of Pui-Pui who Vegeta one-shotted in his base form.
Power levels weren't everything. They were the difference in being able to flick away a fireball or move faster than the opponent… but there were at least a few times where strategy or sheer unwillingness to give up made the difference instead.
There are a couple of things hinting at base Goku being stronger than Frieza, such as when the 3 strongest warriors are chosen to fight Babadi's men: base Goku, Gohan and Vegeta are chosen by Babidi hinting that their stronger than Piccolo who's stronger than Frieza.
Chapter: 447 (DBZ 253), P11.1-3
Context: talking about how Yamu and Spopovitch were followed by Goku and co.
Dabra: “Seems they’re trying to hide from us…In total…there are 7. We can’t use Kaioshin and Kibito’s energy…But 3 of them seem to have marvelous energy…”
Babidi: “Looks like it. It seems that we’ll get more than enough energy from just those 3…Kuhihihi…To think that we’d be able to revive Majin Boo so quickly…”Chapter: 447 (DBZ 253), P11.4
Context: talking about how Yamu and Spopovitch were followed by Goku and co.
Babidi: “Get rid of the trash besides those 3 [Goku, Gohan, Vegeta], then return to the spaceship right away. That way, I think those 3 will fly into a rage and follow you inside for sure.”There's also base Kid Trunks fighting on par with Android 18 (who is also stronger than Frieza) in a restrictive costume and Piccolo admitting that the Supreme Kai is stronger than him and the Supreme Kai was scared of Pui-Pui who Vegeta one-shotted in his base form.
Ah okay, that's interesting. Nvm then.
And yet even those situations are vague.
All the heroes were suppressing their power up on that hill, so Dabra couldn't possibly have been judging them by sensing their ki at the time. Plus, it was only their Super Saiyan 2 power, which is FAR above their base forms, that allowed Boo to be revived like they predicted. All possibly suggesting there was some sort of magical clairvoyance at work.
As for Eighteen, she was "under orders" to pull her punches so she wouldn't kill anyone, so she'd almost definitely be going easy while trying to judge this weird "Mighty Mask" guy. It wasn't until the kids went Super Saiyan that she figured out who they were, and also not until then that she was definitely outclassed. So that's pretty indecisive too.
… You can tell I've been part of such conversations a lot. Either way, the Boo arc is kind of messy. Hardly anything in the entire thing is 100% conclusive.
The Boo arc's "inconclusiveness" is what spawned the infernal, eternal and never-ending power level debates of "SS3 Goku vs Ultimate Gohan" and "Kid Boo vs. Super Boo with everyone absorbed".
And these are all stupid and we should have enough tools to answer them easily, but it seems it's not the case.
found this :
@RobbyBevard:
Power levels weren't everything. They were the difference in being able to flick away a fireball or move faster than the opponent… but there were at least a few times where strategy or sheer unwillingness to give up made the difference instead.
Well, if it wasn't for Vegeta to warn Nappa to duck the incoming attack Krillin would have decapitated Nappa.
found this :
enjoy :)
Ah that guy. His stuff is awesome. I can't help but feel this guy should be working in a studio somewhere.
I went to see Battle of Gods earlier today.
Fun tiems were had.
There are a couple of things hinting at base Goku being stronger than Frieza, such as when the 3 strongest warriors are chosen to fight Babadi's men: base Goku, Gohan and Vegeta are chosen by Babidi hinting that their stronger than Piccolo who's stronger than Frieza.
Chapter: 447 (DBZ 253), P11.1-3
Context: talking about how Yamu and Spopovitch were followed by Goku and co.
Dabra: “Seems they’re trying to hide from us…In total…there are 7. We can’t use Kaioshin and Kibito’s energy…But 3 of them seem to have marvelous energy…”
Babidi: “Looks like it. It seems that we’ll get more than enough energy from just those 3…Kuhihihi…To think that we’d be able to revive Majin Boo so quickly…”Chapter: 447 (DBZ 253), P11.4
Context: talking about how Yamu and Spopovitch were followed by Goku and co.
Babidi: “Get rid of the trash besides those 3 [Goku, Gohan, Vegeta], then return to the spaceship right away. That way, I think those 3 will fly into a rage and follow you inside for sure.”There's also base Kid Trunks fighting on par with Android 18 (who is also stronger than Frieza) in a restrictive costume and Piccolo admitting that the Supreme Kai is stronger than him and the Supreme Kai was scared of Pui-Pui who Vegeta one-shotted in his base form.
The thing is, that neither Kaioushin or Babidi and his men were capable of actually estimating another person's PL. It could be argued that Babidi and Dabura simply were able to tell the Saiyan's hidden power, and nothing more. Don't forget that they both thought that the likes of Pui Pui could stand a chance against them.
Kaioushin couldn't really sense anybody's power, and nobody could estimate how strong he is. The reason Piccolo said he's weaker than Kaioushin was merely out of respect, since he realized just who he is, not because Kaioushin was stronger than him. Both Goku and Vegeta weren't capable of sensing his Ki, either. The new film further confirms this as they couldn't grasp Bills' Ki. Not to mention that all three (Goku, Vegeta and Gohan) were supressing their Ki anyhow, so it's obvious Babidi and Dabura used another way to sense their true power.
As for Goten and Trunks, they're probably a special case for being half Saiyans-half humans just like Gohan is, except that their potential is mostly realized already unlike the former whose potential was hidden and brought out by anger.
I'd still put base Saiyans (excluding Goten and Trunks) in the 40-50 million range at most EOS because it makes the most sense. They were still in the low millions during the Android Saga, so it makes no sense for them to get so much stronger in base to the point of reaching over 200 million when their Zenkai became irrelevant at that point. Their most major power ups are the SSJ forms.
Also, when Kaioushin said he could one shot Freeza, Goku was impressed, despite the fact that it should be an easy feat for him while in SSJ.
Dragon Ball crossover with OP and Toriko airing in about 30 minutes: http://www.justin.tv/cc0721cc#/w/5306877712/6
Does anyone know where I can watch this movie subbed, or is that not happening for a long time
Does anyone know where I can watch this movie subbed, or is that not happening for a long time
The movie just came out in japan so yeah it's gonna take a few months for a good quality release of the movie with a sub.
Is there any truth to this? If yes AWWWWWWWWWWWWWW YEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAHHHH
if no… damn -_-
Sorry, its fake. Its DBAF all over again.
ahh dam… well this should get locked then
EDIT: or moved -_- my bad
So… yeah.. had a funny thing happen to me. Met this girl, says she loves DBZ and hated that Kai cut out all the filler scenes because she enjoyed the dragged out tension.
I had no idea such a thing was possible.
Is there any truth to this? If yes AWWWWWWWWWWWWWW YEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAHHHH
[qimg]http://sphotos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/47812_357684057684614_1523966242_n.jpg[/qimg]
if no… damn -_-
LOL. No.
I think an occasional movie is the limit of Toriyama's interest.
If they were to do new material, it wouldn't be as more than 26 episodes initially.
And they also wouldn't call it Dragonball Z.
sounds like dragon ball gt pt 2
Toriyama draws some characters and someone else does the story
The amount of excitement generated by this hoax is just sad, since it far eclipses the buzz around the (very real!) movie that is currently in Japanese theaters.
Plus, considering the degree that Akira Toriyama was well and truly involved with the movie and he still wouldn't want to go in front of cameras (except with a shroud, or not showing his face), how the hell would he have survived an actual press conference?!
@Galaxy:
Dragon Ball crossover with OP and Toriko airing in about 30 minutes: http://www.justin.tv/cc0721cc#/w/5306877712/6
Being a fan of the 3 series, I loved it
Regarding this Toriko x DB x OP… weren't the situations a bit "out-of-universe"? I mean, SSJ Goku is like 100 times stronger than Toriko, and at the same time, Toriko is like 100 times stronger than Luffy.
I can't imagine how could they merge those universes without making one of them look too over or too low in comparison to their original stories.
About the power level discussion you have, I don't recall Piccolo surpassing Freezer at any point of the series, but he was way stronger than Goku at base (who doesn't increase his power at this state after the Namek saga). Problem is, they were all hiding their energy, so if Piccolo hid it better than the others, he could be sensed as someone weaker even when at that moment Piccolo was the strongest of them all.
Regarding Kaiohshin's strength, it was a bit of a contradictory character, much like Gohan at that same saga. It seems obvious to me that Toriyama re-thinked the whole situation midway. At first, Kaioh-Shin was someone extraordinary, capable of killing Freeza with a single punch or to give Goku a great first impression.
But as they enter the Babidi spaceship, he turns into a laughable character with no strength, even weaker than Pui Pui (he wanted to fight him with the help of all the z-warriors XD).
The same does happen with Gohan. A SSJ2 during the tournament that turned into a FPSSJ when he fought against Dabra.
Maybe Toriyama didn't want the power scaling to go up, or maybe the fact that Vegeta SSJ2 would be the major enemy of the pre-bu saga and he reserved the SSJ3 for later forced him to weaken both Gohan and KaiohShin.
Regards!
About the power level discussion you have, I don't recall Piccolo surpassing Freezer at any point of the series
After he fused with Kami he was able to go toe to toe with Android 17, so even if he was not stronger before then then he was after.
Yeah, there was a point in the early cell saga where Piccolo was the strongest guy shown in the series
Yeah, there was a point in the early cell saga where Piccolo was the strongest guy shown in the series
Wasn't cyborg 16 because we was equal to cell even after he absorb a lot of people after escaping piccolo.
After he fused with Kami he was able to go toe to toe with Android 17, so even if he was not stronger before then then he was after.
Yes, I remember that, but Freezer was still much stronger. Piccolo was more or less at the same level of Trunks SSJ before fusing with kami and surpassed Vegeta SSJ comfortably after the fusion, but this is still a much lower level than Freezer's maximum strength as I see it!
Regards!
Uhhh what
Freeza was made into mincemeat by Trunks, effortlessly. And by your own words, Post-fused Piccolo >Trunks.
Cell saga Piccolo would have torn Freeza to ribbons
@The:
Uhhh what
Freeza was made into mincemeat by Trunks, effortlessly. And by your own words, Post-fused Piccolo >Trunks.
Cell saga Piccolo would have torn Freeza to ribbons
Freeza != Mecha Freeza
Of course, Mecha Freeza was weaker than Piccolo, but not only Cell-saga Piccolo, even when he was on Namek!!!
As I see it (only ki-strength, not overall fighting capacity):
Freezer > Cold > Fused Piccolo =>(nearly equal) #17 >(tiny difference) #18 = Vegeta SSJ >(tiny difference) Android-Saga Pre-fusion Piccolo >= Trunks SSJ > #20 > Namek-Piccolo -> Cold transformed (earth appearance) > #19 => Mecha Freezer
Freeza != Mecha Freeza
Of course, Mecha Freeza was weaker than Piccolo, but not only Cell-saga Piccolo, even when he was on Namek!!!
As I see it (only ki-strength, not overall fighting capacity):
Freezer > Cold > Fused Piccolo =>(nearly equal) #17 >(tiny difference) #18 = Vegeta SSJ >(tiny difference) Android-Saga Pre-fusion Piccolo >= Trunks SSJ > #20 > Namek-Piccolo -> Cold transformed (earth appearance) > #19 => Mecha Freezer
Wasn't Mecha-Frieza stronger then regular Frieza? From the wiki : "These enhancements allowed him to exceed the limits imposed by his fully organic form, though by how much or in what way is unknown. In the original manga, Gohan mentioned that he was nowhere near the power he displayed against Goku, but Vegeta said he was much stronger than before."
Wasn't Mecha-Frieza stronger then regular Frieza? From the wiki : "These enhancements allowed him to exceed the limits imposed by his fully organic form, though by how much or in what way is unknown. In the original manga, Gohan mentioned that he was nowhere near the power he displayed against Goku, but Vegeta said he was much stronger than before."
I don't know where Vegeta says that, I don't remember that. What I remembered was Gohan saying that Mecha Freezer's power was nowhere near the power he had on namek, plus the fact that Trunks destroyed him without efford when he had the same power that Goku had in Namek (and that power was of course inferior to Freezer's maximum power).
This sentence of Vegeta… it could make me change my mind if I can find it.
I don't know where Vegeta says that, I don't remember that. What I remembered was Gohan saying that Mecha Freezer's power was nowhere near the power he had on namek, plus the fact that Trunks destroyed him without efford when he had the same power that Goku had in Namek (and that power was of course inferior to Freezer's maximum power).
This sentence of Vegeta… it could make me change my mind if I can find it.
True, but I remember Frieza or his father saying that they were able to enhance his powers even greater then they were before.
Trunks destroyed him without efford when he had the same power that Goku had in Namek
For that matter, what are you basing this on? I always assumed SSJ Trunks when he fought Mecha Frieza was stronger than SSJ Goku on Namek (all those years of fighting the androids and all).
And I too was under the impression that Mecha Frieza > Frieza.
@The:
Uhhh what
Freeza was made into mincemeat by Trunks, effortlessly. And by your own words, Post-fused Piccolo >Trunks.
Cell saga Piccolo would have torn Freeza to ribbons
I don't know where Vegeta says that, I don't remember that. What I remembered was Gohan saying that Mecha Freezer's power was nowhere near the power he had on namek, plus the fact that Trunks destroyed him without efford when he had the same power that Goku had in Namek (and that power was of course inferior to Freezer's maximum power).
This sentence of Vegeta… it could make me change my mind if I can find it.
Yeah, his power was much less than it was during the final battle. But that's not because he was weakened, but because his power was supressed. Gohan himself said so, that he wasn't at his full power (which was evident by his appearance). So that's why Trunks could easily kill him, because his wasn't at his (previously) full power of 120 million, but in the low millions most likely whereas SSJ Trunks was atleast 150 million, just like SSJ Goku.
As for Mecha Freeza's PL, it doesn't make much sense to me that some mechanic replacements could make him far stronger than he was before, so at most I'm willing to put him at Namek's SSJ Goku's PL of 150 mill.
Regarding this Toriko x DB x OP… weren't the situations a bit "out-of-universe"? I mean, SSJ Goku is like 100 times stronger than Toriko, and at the same time, Toriko is like 100 times stronger than Luffy.
I can't imagine how could they merge those universes without making one of them look too over or too low in comparison to their original stories.About the power level discussion you have, I don't recall Piccolo surpassing Freezer at any point of the series, but he was way stronger than Goku at base (who doesn't increase his power at this state after the Namek saga). Problem is, they were all hiding their energy, so if Piccolo hid it better than the others, he could be sensed as someone weaker even when at that moment Piccolo was the strongest of them all.
Regarding Kaiohshin's strength, it was a bit of a contradictory character, much like Gohan at that same saga. It seems obvious to me that Toriyama re-thinked the whole situation midway. At first, Kaioh-Shin was someone extraordinary, capable of killing Freeza with a single punch or to give Goku a great first impression.
But as they enter the Babidi spaceship, he turns into a laughable character with no strength, even weaker than Pui Pui (he wanted to fight him with the help of all the z-warriors XD).
The same does happen with Gohan. A SSJ2 during the tournament that turned into a FPSSJ when he fought against Dabra.
Maybe Toriyama didn't want the power scaling to go up, or maybe the fact that Vegeta SSJ2 would be the major enemy of the pre-bu saga and he reserved the SSJ3 for later forced him to weaken both Gohan and KaiohShin.Regards!
Ehm, what? Piccolo was much stronger than Freeza.
First of all, 18 could beat both SSJ Vegeta and SSJ Trunks. They're above Freeza at that point (I've had always put them at over 200 million and less than 300 million). After fusing with Kami Piccolo was already above 18 and could go toe to toe with 17 (I'd put him at around 330 mill, personally).
EOS, I think Piccolo was around 500 million at most.
For that matter, what are you basing this on? I always assumed SSJ Trunks when he fought Mecha Frieza was stronger than SSJ Goku on Namek (all those years of fighting the androids and all).
And I too was under the impression that Mecha Frieza > Frieza.
Well, I don't know where Vegeta says that Mecha Freezer had more strength than the original, but we have some hard evidences on the strenght of trunks:
1. Gohan says literally that Goku and Trunks energy are "the same". Of course, he could refer to type, but also on size, because even the smallest differences in ki sizes is always pointed to the reader. Mecha Freezer and Transformed Cold for example, had nearly the same ki capacity (or they are both killed easily by Trunks) but even then we are explained who is stronger than who.
2. Goku didn't have much time to train in the space. In fact, he himself acknowledges that he could only learn how to transform at his own will and to learn the shunkanido. He overpowered Trunks, but he also said that Trunks wasn't fighting at full strength against him so they were pretty much the same.
The most important fact of course is Gohan saying that both of them had the same ki, but the fact that Goku couldn't train properly and spend most of that time learning the shunkanido, and the fact that the SSJ is trained in a different way than the normal form, supports Gohan's statement about Trunks's power.
About Mecha Freezer > Freezer… well, to me it was pretty clear (until Ronin-sama told me that Vegeta said the opposite of Gohan).
In one side we have Mecha Freezer saying that he is more powerful now and the number 1 of the universe, and Cold acknowledging those facts.
On the other side, we have Gohan saying that Mecha Freezer's power was much less than on namek, that his power was smaller than Cold's transformed, and that Trunks had the same strength than Goku on Namek.
The only way to explain this to me is this one:
When Freezer fought against Goku SSJ, he lost a lot of his energy after the Spirit Bomb that nearly killed him. Since he was injured, he felt of course injured, with all the implications that feeling injured have in Dragon Ball (weakened being one of them). Now that he is "recovered" (he doesn't feel like if he is injured), he thinks that can fight Goku with more strength than he did.
By what we can see, he also can use his power much freely than before, when he got exhausted only by using his full power.
Of course, he has no way to know how powerful he really is. He has the same capacity than a human when it comes to detect someone's ki, so he can't know that at that moment he was much weaker than before. The same goes for Cold.
This is why even when we are told that Cold is stronger, the relation between Cold and Freezer is the opposite, with Freeza still taking the role as the strongest one and Cold being his 2nd (Freezer always talks about being the #1 of the universe, while Cold always speaks of "having the #1 of the universe in my family").
At the end they were all mistaken, and so they acted in a way that got them both killed by trunks.
This is how I see it.
@[URL=http://forums.arlongpark.net/member.php?u=15965:
Strawhat Chan]Yeah, his power was much less than it was during the final battle. But that's not because he was weakened, but because his power was supressed. Gohan himself said so, that he wasn't at his full power (which was evident by his appearance). So that's why Trunks could easily kill him, because his wasn't at his (previously) full power of 120 million, but in the low millions most likely whereas SSJ Trunks was atleast 150 million, just like SSJ Goku.
When Gohan says that Mecha Freezer "has much more strength is of course comparing Mecha Freezer's current strength to the one he had on Namek. He can't possibly know that Freezer is now a cyborg, and of course he can't sense if he is going at full force or not.
Since Trunks gives Mecha Freezer plenty of time to prepare and to attack, and since Mecha Freezer was scared shitless by trunks, it has no sense that he attacked him without using all his power.
And then there is Cold that, between the fact he is transformed, stronger than freezer, and how he talks, pretty much confirm what I say.
Regards!
A bunch of stuff.
If you didn't have the intention to read, then you would have done better not replying me about who was stronger than who. Oh, and power levels are bullshit on the anime, on the manga were defined pretty well.
Well, I don't know where Vegeta says that Mecha Freezer had more strength than the original, but we have some hard evidences on the strenght of trunks:
1. Gohan says literally that Goku and Trunks energy are "the same". Of course, he could refer to type, but also on size, because even the smallest differences in ki sizes is always pointed to the reader. Mecha Freezer and Transformed Cold for example, had nearly the same ki capacity (or they are both killed easily by Trunks) but even then we are explained who is stronger than who.2. Goku didn't have much time to train in the space. In fact, he himself acknowledges that he could only learn how to transform at his own will and to learn the shunkanido. He overpowered Trunks, but he also said that Trunks wasn't fighting at full strength against him so they were pretty much the same.
The most important fact of course is Gohan saying that both of them had the same ki, but the fact that Goku couldn't train properly and spend most of that time learning the shunkanido, and the fact that the SSJ is trained in a different way than the normal form, supports Gohan's statement about Trunks's power.
About Mecha Freezer > Freezer… well, to me it was pretty clear (until Ronin-sama told me that Vegeta said the opposite of Gohan).
In one side we have Mecha Freezer saying that he is more powerful now and the number 1 of the universe, and Cold acknowledging those facts.
On the other side, we have Gohan saying that Mecha Freezer's power was much less than on namek, that his power was smaller than Cold's transformed, and that Trunks had the same strength than Goku on Namek.The only way to explain this to me is this one:
When Freezer fought against Goku SSJ, he lost a lot of his energy after the Spirit Bomb that nearly killed him. Since he was injured, he felt of course injured, with all the implications that feeling injured have in Dragon Ball (weakened being one of them). Now that he is "recovered" (he doesn't feel like if he is injured), he thinks that can fight Goku with more strength than he did.
By what we can see, he also can use his power much freely than before, when he got exhausted only by using his full power.Of course, he has no way to know how powerful he really is. He has the same capacity than a human when it comes to detect someone's ki, so he can't know that at that moment he was much weaker than before. The same goes for Cold.
This is why even when we are told that Cold is stronger, the relation between Cold and Freezer is the opposite, with Freeza still taking the role as the strongest one and Cold being his 2nd (Freezer always talks about being the #1 of the universe, while Cold always speaks of "having the #1 of the universe in my family").At the end they were all mistaken, and so they acted in a way that got them both killed by trunks.
This is how I see it.
When Gohan says that Mecha Freezer "has much more strength is of course comparing Mecha Freezer's current strength to the one he had on Namek. He can't possibly know that Freezer is now a cyborg, and of course he can't sense if he is going at full force or not.
Since Trunks gives Mecha Freezer plenty of time to prepare and to attack, and since Mecha Freezer was scared shitless by trunks, it has no sense that he attacked him without using all his power.
And then there is Cold that, between the fact he is transformed, stronger than freezer, and how he talks, pretty much confirm what I say.Regards!
Freeza's full power form is his bulky form. Since Freeza wasn't in that form, it stands to reason that he wasn't at his 120+ million PL. There is no indication that he powered up.
As for what Gohan and Vegeta said - all it means is that Freeza could still power up, as I've said until now. His power was suppressed. Even at his lowest form, Freeza would claim that he's the strongest in the universe.
Oh, and power levels are bullshit on the anime, on the manga were defined pretty well.
I'm just going to say that, from a third party point of view, the very fact that you are able to have a debate, involving such long chains of reasoning, over relative power levels – a topic which, it seems to me, should by its very nature be incredibly straightforward; a power level is represented by a number, a higher number means higher power level -- makes it hard to believe that the system is very well set up and defined in any version of the story.
@[URL=http://forums.arlongpark.net/member.php?u=15965:
Strawhat Chan]Freeza's full power form is his bulky form. Since Freeza wasn't in that form, it stands to reason that he wasn't at his 120+ million PL. There is no indication that he powered up.
As for what Gohan and Vegeta said - all it means is that Freeza could still power up, as I've said until now. His power was suppressed. Even at his lowest form, Freeza would claim that he's the strongest in the universe.
The bulky form is not a transformation, it's Freezer using his maximum strenght. Since he returns as a cyborg, and since metal can't strech like skin, is pretty obvious that mecha-freezer full power wouldn't imply a "bulky form".
About Gohan and Vegeta… neither of them had information about mecha-freezer. They knew he was Freezer because he had the same ki, and they speculated from that point. The fact that Gohan (I still need to be told where Vegeta does speak about Mecha-Freezer strength) say that he can increase his powers much more is the same as saying that at that moment, Mecha-Freezer was inferior than when he was on Namek. The fact that Mecha-Freezer doesn't increase his powers at all, means that those powers where his maximum strength.
@[URL=http://forums.arlongpark.net/member.php?u=29280:
Panda Bear]I'm just going to say that, from a third party point of view, the very fact that you are able to have a debate, involving such long chains of reasoning, over relative power levels – a topic which, it seems to me, should by its very nature be incredibly straightforward; a power level is represented by a number, a higher number means higher power level -- makes it hard to believe that the system is very well set up and defined in any version of the story.
Being well defined doesn't mean that this definition is given in a direct way. If you go by the facts, you can pretty much tell how strong is every character until Boo's appearance and the beginning of fusions/abnormal-absorptions.
The fact is that without the databooks, you could fairly successfully argue that Goku and Frieza's battle was at roughly 10-15 million. With databooks its revealed that they were in the 120 mill range instead.
This is NEVER stated clearly in the manga or anime, so trying to extrapolate anything past Frieza's "one million in second form" goes nowhere fast. Either use the official datbook numbers in which case there's zero argument, or you go by observation, in which case the numbers are completely meaningless.
@RobbyBevard:
The fact is that without the databooks, you could fairly successfully argue that Goku and Frieza's battle was at roughly 10-15 million. With databooks its revealed that they were in the 120 mill range instead.
This is NEVER stated clearly in the manga or anime, so trying to extrapolate anything past Frieza's "one million in second form" goes nowhere fast. Either use the official datbook numbers in which case there's zero argument, or you go by observation, in which case the numbers are completely meaningless.
Of course, you can't be as accurate as to say "He had 3.804.365 units of power", but you can have a pretty closed range.
About those "official guides", they're as official as the anime, so they doesn't matter at all. Freezer power is at around 12 million, not 120. And of course, Goku SSJ wasn't 150 millon, nor he was 15 million either. This is what I mean when I talk about "approximate" powers.
Toriyama himself said that this guide was wrong, so…
Friends, freezamite is a famous troll in spanish forum, he is always bugging constantly with his "theory" of Freezer at 100%, takes years and years doing this. Look:
Friends, freezamite is a famous troll in spanish forum, he is always bugging constantly with his "theory" of Freezer at 100%, takes years and years doing this. Look:
I've posted in a lot of forums… and "troll"? Why exactly? :blink:
@[COLOR=#3E3E3E:
RobbyBevard]Pics or it didn't happen.
Here he says that the SSJ was an x10 increase, something that can be also deduced reading the manga, but we also have Toriyama's confirmation ;)
But that makes absolutely zero sense, since Goku never used Kaioken with SUper Saiyan mode and his best kaioken was kaioken times 20 which wasn't enough against Freeza. Can you even prove that's a legitimate interview?
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Here he says that the SSJ was an x10 increase, something that can be also deduced reading the manga, but we also have Toriyama's confirmation ;)
So, did you translate this info yourself? If so, what exactly does it say? And where did this interview come from? Not the databooks or kazebans?
Also worth noting, Toriyama forgot Super Saiyin 3 existed, the color of 18's hair, that Lunch and tao Pai Pai existed, that Kaioshin was fused, and gave Vegeta a brother 20 years later. He may be the creator, but he is oddly enough, not the authority on these things.
But that makes absolutely zero sense, since Goku never used Kaioken with SUper Saiyan mode and his best kaioken was kaioken times 20 which wasn't enough against Freeza. Can you even prove that's a legitimate interview?
Of course. This is from the Super Exciting guide, an interview made to him. The translation, from kaizenshuu (a reliable source), is this one:
"At the time, it was made out that he was fifty times as strong when he became Super Saiyan, but that's a little extravagant. As far as my feelings as an author go, I think I drew it with the sense of it being a change of about ten times what he had been up until then."
He also explains why he made the SSJ to be blonde, but this is irrelevant to what we are talking now.
Toriyama himself finds a little weird (of course he is being modest and doesn't say it this) that the x50 number got that popular, because the manga is drawn with an x10 increase in mind for the basic SSJ.
@RobbyBevard:
Also worth noting, Toriyama forgot Super Saiyin 3 existed, the color of 18's hair, that Lunch and tao Pai Pai existed, that Kaioshin was fused, and gave Vegeta a brother 20 years later. He may be the creator, but he is oddly enough, not the authority on these things.
Well, of course this can also be proven using the manga. But to have Toriyama's confirmation helps a lot.
Regards!
This is from the Super Exciting guide
Yeah… I don't trust 2009 Toriyama over 1995 Toriyama.
He'll insist again and again and again and again and again with this, and what Gohan says to Yamcha about Freezer strength. I know, he'll discuss endlessly so, seriously.