Hey, mangastream translation.
Ah, so Zoro doesn't like slicing women, but he will when he has to, like shown in this chapter, hence Sanji's words. Actually quite simple. The problem is the execution, I guess. Zoro should've gotten to finish her actually off, then the point would have been made better.
Chapter 687: Wild animal
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I actually took Sanji's words differently. I thought he was referring to Zoro's soft side in general, not towards women.
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I think he also refer to that as well: soft side + get things done regardless of the obstacule at hand.
Im suprised certain thread hasn't been reopen.
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1. I still see the more important distinction in those six fights as being the one I mentioned. Just a matter of opinion.
2. Regarding Helmeppo/Tashigi: Zoro's attitude towards Tashigi is a special one because of the Kuina resemblance. We've never had a reason to doubt that. It was for that reason, in fact, that Zoro was able to hide his apparent sexism for so long. Not until Monet was there enough evidence to support any real conclusions. If Helmeppo were female… ? Yeah. That would have raised a flag, and with good reason, because it would throw into doubt his Kuina explanation (if he treated two female swordsmen in the exact same pitying way, while claiming to only have a very special explanation for one of them?). But Helmeppo's not female, and it didn't seem weird because it was clearly a very casual fight where nobody was in real danger (and I bet that Zoro felt no "killing intent" from Helmeppo, if that floats your boat).
3. Luffy and Zoro's refusal to fight Bellamy was explained. It wasn't worth getting into a bunch of trouble with a bunch of hooligans over arguments about dreams. It was a matter of ideals. We were meant to remember Shanks and Higuma back in Fusha Village (refusing to fight assholes in a bar doesn't make you weak- it makes you the better person). I don't see how gender would change that. It certainly wouldn't change the final outcome (Luffy oneshotting him). Admittedly it would seem out of place in shonen, though, no? A nasty woman in a bar shitting on the SHs' dreams, being ignored at first, and then getting punched in the face by Luffy and killed by Doflamingo? I'd only view it differently because it would seem out of character for shonen, but not because it offended my sensibilities any more or less.
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My response to the whole Zoro Monet affair is this. In all those instances that were brought up, zoro was protecting someone or at a disadvantage. Enies lobby, whiskey peak, skypedia, etc. Either he was facing overwhelming odds or his crew was in danger so he didnt hold back. Hes never gone all out against a weaker opponent, even back in arlong park against Hachi. The only exception i can think of was the franky family and that was a matter of revenge.
I think the reason zoro is taking it easier on monet is because he has faith that the crew cann fix the problem. Zoro is a proud and strong person but also realistic he knows nami ussop and chopper and weak and need to be looked out for sometimes. However since the new world he's recognized along with us how much stronger they have become and probably believes that they can take on anything on punk hazard
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Hrrr, Zoro is normal. He will kill anyone one he needs to kill. He could deal with Monet without killing her, so he didn't. When she was about to take a bite of Tashigi, he sliced her, plain and simple.
Is it sexist? No. Zoro dos it with everyone. He used the back of the sword storming inside the Galei La company. He killed 200 bounty hunters, because he couldn't deal with them in any other way. But he only crushed Miss Monday's skull in self defense. She caught him, he caught her…
And see what he did with Hyouzo. He did everything to avoid cutting him up.And where was Tashigi downplayed? She cut fucking Monet... More than most straw hat could do. Since when is getting her ass kicked by a Logia bad?
She got saved by Zoro and then 'saved' him. She hugged someone who bit her just so she couldn't take of her shoulder. She was plenty badass. Zoro is just... a soft-sided badass. -
The chapter was fantastic and I don't agree with the various complaints that have been made about sexism/zoro's derivative character (protecting women is Sanji's thing). I think it's more clear in the mangastream translation that Tashigi assumes that Zoro can't hurt women, but in reality he is really being merciful towards someone who is much weaker than himself. Also, it would have been strange if Tashigi defeated Monet on her own; at least we saw some soru/haki/badass resolve. Can't wait until next week.
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So reading this thread, I just learned there exist people who thinks being a gentleman is being sexist. But some girls complain about the death of chivalry. Oh every since the 20th century, this topic is a major annoyance.
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Didn't like it. Zoro reasons for halfassing were not the same as Mihawks were but similar to Sanjis. Yes it may be character development but I think into the wrong direction. Also Tashigi was useless once again -.-
@TheLaw: Some characters are just not meant to be gentelmen.
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The chapter was fantastic and I don't agree with the various complaints that have been made about sexism/zoro's derivative character (protecting women is Sanji's thing). I think it's more clear in the mangastream translation that Tashigi assumes that Zoro can't hurt women, but in reality he is really being merciful towards someone who is much weaker than himself. Also, it would have been strange if Tashigi defeated Monet on her own; at least we saw some soru/haki/badass resolve. Can't wait until next week.
Which is what the "Zoro is a sexist" people don't get. However some people seem to think that since Zoro doesn't like cutting women he values them less, which is obviously not true. It might be a sexist attitude but it's not a harmful or demeaning attitude in Zoro's case. In Sanji's case it is part of his character but it's also a refusal to hit women because he thinks they are weak along with the fact that it could harm is his crew later on makes this a "sexism" an actual character flaw unlike Zoro.
–sidenote: so it takes the topic of Zoro's sexism to avoid "Sabo" and "Doflamingo" theories past page 20. what do we need a chapter with Luffy's political views or Nami's views on race to keep this thread from falling to the "Sabo Zone"?
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I just hope this isn't the last we see of Monet
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So reading this thread, I just learned there exist people who thinks being a gentleman is being sexist. But some girls complain about the death of chivalry. Oh every since the 20th century, this topic is a major annoyance.
It's hypocritical b/c how pretty women vs "ugly" women are treated in the manga. And Sanji having a white knight complex is inherent with his character but Zoro has never displayed this kind of behavior.
Cultural relativism aside, I think if you're going to treat women in the manga one way, you have to treat all women that way. Whether they be pretty or ugly. That's just my opinion on the matter.
Ps. The only women who complain about death of chivalry are the ones who are socialized with the old time standards. Most women I know who don't really care about feminism, having children, settling down, making sandwiches don't give 2 shits about death of "chivalry." Even if we live in a pro-feminist era (generally in the states at least), doesn't mean ALL women have same mindset. In the real world ppl will complain from many different viewpoints….
Which is what the "Zoro is a sexist" people don't get. However some people seem to think that since Zoro doesn't like cutting women he values them less, which is obviously not true. It might be a sexist attitude but it's not a harmful or demeaning attitude in Zoro's case. In Sanji's case it is part of his character but it's also a refusal to hit women because he thinks they are weak along with the fact that it could harm is his crew later on makes this a "sexism" an actual character flaw unlike Zoro.
–sidenote: so it takes the topic of Zoro's sexism to avoid "Sabo" and "Doflamingo" theories past page 20. what do we need a chapter with Luffy's political views or Nami's views on race to keep this thread from falling to the "Sabo Zone"?
This makes me a little sad that we can easily brush off conversations something that mirrors real life problems. Oda obviously uses fisherman as an allegory for slavery in the new world/americas, so I think it's more than fair for that topic to come up within the context of the storyline.
Also, Sanji does not find women "weak" it's part of his character, I will not hit a women no matter strong or weak. And the difference between battle of Hachi&Hyouzou and the battle with Monet is knight and day. All Zoro did against Monet was block and let his Nakama almost get eaten, Zoro actually sliced/cut/bled Hachi/Hyouzou.
I think the equivalent of Zoro blocking Monet in the fight with Hyouzou is him cutting his blades. So the equivalent of him slicing Hyouzou and making him bled is "intimediating" Monet with fear and a slice that he knows wouldn't hurt her? Okay….. And by progression sake, she is stronger than Hyouzou, so he should've been you know, more slicey.
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I think it's pretty funny that on Fishman Island it was Sanji who was constantly under fire because of his behavior and nose bleeds.
On Punk Hazard he started to redeem himself and got his old Sanji disappearing act back.
Now Zoro is the black sheep of the family with his lazy behaviour and weird motives XD
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Just a thought: Baby 5 and Buffalo have yet to turn up. Perhaps if Zoro and Tashigi end up fighting Baby 5 and Zoro finishes her?
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Wow, it feels like a long time since I've done this. I think maybe it's because I don't get challenged much anymore. Anyway…
/exhale...
[hide]@TheRussian:
It's pretty obvious why she didn't move, Zoro has always been the kind of fighter whom you could always sense the threat. She could feel it coming completely unleashed, to her, running from him would have been akin to running from an avalanche.
Rather unusual victory method, I found I really liked it.
This is a women who can literally disappear into the snow, but didn't even try. That's her version of running, and it works.
@CCC:
-Same arguments applying to Hyouzou? We basically have an entire chapter here dedicated to the mystery of Zoro's motivations. Is he sexist or just disdainful of the weak? Who knows! Half of it is dialogue exploring his motivations, and the other half is action that speaks to them further. Hyouzou's defeat took all of few panels and was over before we knew it, with no philosophical pondering. Crazy druggie bad guy moves towards Robin–> Zoro puts him down. Baddie gets back up--> Zoro destroys him. Some people may have been wondering why Zoro didn't just get a move on and end it, but it all happened so succinctly that I imagine those people were in the minority.
Granted it happened in a few single pages in various chapters so that it could more easily be glossed over, unlike this which took over an entire chapter. Even still, he told a crazy drugged up guy to get lost. What would Hyouzou have done then? I doubt it would have been good.
-I know that we do have to take Zoro at his word, and of course it's silly to suggest that a relatively honest character would be lying through the fourth wall. That's not my problem here. Again, it's the fact that Oda created the situation as such. Zoro doesn't have to be lying for his truthful words to be the author's way of covering up some sticky business. Shonen authors don't like big strong male protagonists explicitly taking down pretty women. We know that. Anyone denying that is lying to themselves. The overwhelming feeling I get from this chapter is that it stinks of a bunch of confusing roundabout lines and actions meant to mask the author's adherence to that code, perhaps because he in fact has some trouble with it himself? That's just speculation of course, but I think Oda's earned the benefit of the doubt in that sense, given his holy-shit-is-this-guy-progressive-or-what stance towards racism/xenophobia during the beloved Fishman Island.
It's an undeniably tricky situation that Oda is trying to manage. Mercilessly cutting down a woman won't endear a lot of the fanbase to a character. Tashigi is, in a way, an excuse to tip-toe around that. But more than that, I maintain that this situation was crafted for Tashigi to begin with. This whole thing feels like a manufactured platform for her to have a soapbox to me than anything else.
…as for "would you or I be any different?" well... I don't know. I think I'd have a hard time trying to really hurt anyone except in self-defense. I'm looking at this from a literary perspective, though. Sanji fills his particular niche to the brim, so it leaves a bad taste in my mouth to be forced to entertain the thought that Zoro is not that different, in the grand scheme, all IN SPITE of his childhood backstory.
I'd argue that his childhood backstory could be exactly what makes him uneasy about fighting women. He lost Kuina to what I consider suicide. That undoubtedly left a bitter taste in his mouth. It's how he responds to it that's up for debate. The comments about women being weaker probably echo through his head, though.
Now, when a girl appears that can actually give him a fight, I'll take the concept of honoring Kuina's memory more sincerely. But Monet was powerless against him. She was legitimately weaker. A lot of people expect a man to not act brutally towards a woman, and that attitude is enhanced when they're clearly weaker.
Anyway, sorry to keep being such a stinker about this. I admittedly detest arguing on forums, because I'm really fucking insecure, but I guess this is, of all things, somehow important enough to me to do so.
Stop apologizing! As long as it doesn't become circular in some attempt to be "right" then it's exactly what this sort of thing is for. I understand the complaints. I'm not oblivious to them, nor do I entirely disagree with them. I just feel like they're blown out of proportion, and I see it as a sort of community service if I can help other people understand why, as it would increase their enjoyment of the chapter as well.
well,even though she is not a expert on coc,but she is decently knowledgable.also,i think that oda through tashigi is explaining the situation to us.also,if monet would be affected by coc,why did luffy had problems with her?you could argue he didn't use it,or was idiotic not to use it,or whatever.but i don't think there is any way that zoro did use haki and tashigi didn't notice it.i don't buy it.it falls in one of the things that people want to push into haki,just cause there is haki.
as i said,ccc's translation are better to base a debate on.really,mangapanda did a number on this chapter."sol".mygod.it's useless to take anything they say for serious.Luffy didn't have problems with her. He didn't even try to fight her, and both of them agreed that he'd win easily if he did. She was just impeding his progress, so he made a move to slip around her, which wound up not going as planned. And like it or not, mangapanda's translations really aren't that inaccurate, and the fact that they wrote "sol" instead of "soru" doesn't change that. In my experience, they're typically more accurate when it comes to conveying meaning than mangastream is. Sure, CCC's are better than either, and Stephen's are better than that (no offense of course CCC). But beggars can't be choosers, and it's close enough for us to get a solid understanding of what's being said for the most part.
What's being said is that Monet was paralyzed by fear. And a cut to the cheek isn't enough to warrant that by itself. You're talking to someone who's usually pretty guarded about what he labels as haki.
Hey urouge, remember awhile back when I said I've willing to argue with ya if I don't agree? Well I'm up for it if you are.
I never hide from a well reasoned debate that I can understand. Well, until it gets circular and repetitive I suppose.
Hyouzou is a fair case to compare it to, but it's not equal.
First, the focus on Zoro vs Hyouzou was on such a different scale than Monet's fight. Hyouzou had a few panels every couple chapters, and there was that weird break with Luffy vs Hody. Way harder to pick apart than having a whole chapter devoted to this.
Well, I already responded to this earlier in this post and I don't want to just repeat myself. I don't think "scale" is the right word, though.
Second, sexism is a fair point to bring up since it was brought up, a lot, in the story. You said it yourself that Zoro not wanting to hurt women was alluded to a bunch of times. It was even emphasized last chapter how Zoro was only parrying attacks instead of trying to go on the offensive.
Absolutely. Sexism is a main focus of the entire chapter. Thanks Tashigi. That doesn't excuse the fanbase from also being guilty of the same thing to a degree. It's not like every character with boobs is proposed as the next crewmate because Tashigi is a proponent of gender equality.
The other main difference between the two fights is that after Zoro and Hyouzou exchanged blows, Zoro incapacitated Hyouzou. The reason Zoro didn't finish him off was mentioned here http://www.mangapanda.com/one-piece/646/5 that Zoro stopped once Hyouzou he thought he had no more fighting spirit. Monet had a lot of fight in her before Tashigi showed up, but Zoro seemed content with only parrying attacks.
Even still, Zoro incapacitated Hyouzou without ever actually hurting him (until the finishing blow). He basically attempted the same thing when he cut Monet in half. It wasn't a move meant to hurt her, but rather to incapacitate her. The problem I see with your argument is that you're comparing the fights at different stages. Zoro also seemed content to be pretty passive when Hyouzou was full of fighting spirit through the beginning of that fight.
I've seen Mihawk's line used a lot, "you don't hunt a rabbit with all you got", but I feel like that's being treated as "don't ever hunt rabbits" instead of what it really means. Don't go all out, but you can still hunt and kill the rabbit. The reason why people seem to be bothered is that last chapter it seemed like Zoro didn't try to attack the rabbit, and that was honestly in part because he didn't want to hurt a woman, and that seems chauvinistic since otherwise that wouldn't be the case.
I said in my last post that him not attacking weak people is bunch of bull in my eyes. This seemed more of a case where he wanted to see what she had, which can't happen if he just puts her down immediately. I hate to beat a dead horse, but again it was the same way with Hyouzou.
I also don't agree with connecting this trait to his past just because nothing this chapter alluded to Kuina. It just seems like his philosophy in general, but that's not something that seems to really be arguable.
It was never his philosophy before Kuina died. Granted it's a lot of interpretation on my part, so I understand anyone being resistant to the idea.
The final line seems a bit biased. So Tashigi's actions are her own, but Zoro's actions are Oda's direction? I actually do agree with you that ultimately it's because the way Oda writes that Zoro ended up not slicing up Monet, but Zoro not wanting to hurt Monet if he could avoid it was clearly a conscious decision on his part.
You misunderstand. What I mean is that Zoro's actions aren't blatantly sexist as far as I can tell. The reason they're viewed that way is because of the context Oda put them in, and Tashigi's dialog, rather than anything in particular that he did. Tashigi just straight up rants about sexism, so of course her character is soaking in it. And yet again, he did the same with Hyouzou, so it's not fair to blame sexism.
This really is just a matter of opinion. The way I think people see it, is that Zoro didn't see her as a threat, so he didn't try to harm her or at least stop her in some fashion unless he absolutely had to, and that bothers me. There doesn't seem to be any real reason why Zoro couldn't just do what he did this chapter last chapter except so Tashigi can do something this arc. And honestly since I don't fight swords I have no idea, but if some girl attacked me in a serious matter, I would try to do something to stop her from trying to hit me.
Depends on perspective. From a literary perspective, it's uninteresting to end a fight immediately, and creating this situation with Zoro and Tashigi was clearly the author's goal. From a character perspective, it's not even the first fight that Zoro has dragged out since the timeskip. Last chapter nobody was getting torn up that needed saving. And before anyone argues about Nami and Robin, Zoro didn't seem particularly worried about them and possesses mantra. If things were going to end badly, he could have responded like he did in this chapter at any time before it happened. I think the mantra angle in particular is ignored a little too much.
@CCC:
I bet Oda sees a huge difference between Zoro and Sanji's respective brands of sexism. Zoro's probably wouldn't even register as sexism to him, because it's so non-obtrusive and status quo. Zoro's just a typical badass manly man in society. Sanji is a wacko from another planet, and the only people who could possibly identify with him are probably a small sect of crazy otakus hiding in a basement somewhere. The two characters are nothing alike, so there's no redundancy. Ergo, Oda is not a bad writer, because his considering his perspective is essential to interpreting the story.
I've been trying to say this, but after reading the way you word this I realize I failed to express it very eloquently. The way Zoro treats it is normal, manageable, and understandable, and he should be allowed that. What Sanji does is borderline insanity, and goes so overboard with it that Zoro struggles get the benefit of the doubt for just being normal. As long as Sanji stands alone as far as the ridiculous extremes are concerned, I'm fine with it. I suppose I could accept Brook breaching that territory slightly, so long as it didn't go too far.[/hide]
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god DAMN this forum
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I'm of the opinion that there is a degree of sexism in this chapter, just that Oda tried to prove otherwise in a very, VERY ambiguous and weird way. But I DO think his intention was to try to convince us that Zoro is not sexist. I think.
To add to the Hyozou / Monet parallels, that I admit I didn't think beforehand and that are obviously there; during that fight against Hyozou he actually told Hyozou to surrender not once, but TWICE: remember that right before cutting all of his swords vertically, he told him "Idiot, I gave you the chance to get out of my range". I think that was meant to be a "you should've gotten the fuck out of here". After that, he AGAIN told him to GTFO. He didn't comply, and so this time he got slashed by Zoro.
Monet got a very similar treatment. As someone said before me, Zoro scaring the fuck out of Monet was equal to Zoro cutting Hyozou's swords vertically: both are incredibly badass looking but also leave the oponent without any injury. It's pure intimidation.
I still have issues with some parts of the chapter and the execution, but comparing the two fights, I don't think Monet recieved that much of a different treatment, considering Zoro gave Hyozou TWO chances to run, and actually never attacked him directly. We could say he too was blocking during the whole fight, but it's difficult to judge considering that fight it's just a couple of pannels long without recieving much exposition.
That being said, we NEED CCC's translation. I think he will pay extra double super attention to every single word. . . .
This thread will be like, SUPER long. . .
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Ah thank you Mangastream for clearing up some lines and adding the last page (MangaPanda forgot to put it up).
Seriously I don't have any problem with Zoro holding back. Least, unlike Sanji, he won't just sit there and take it. And really I believe he probably would've sliced Monet fatally if he had to had Tashigi not arrived. This doesn't make him weak or sexist, just gives some layers to his character. Most of you are just disappointed he didn't go all out as usual and the fight was pretty much given to Tashigi. Not gonna lie, this battle was handled pretty clumsily.
I still stand by my previous opinion though about basiclly teaching Tashigi on swordman's pride. She did kinda beg that she take over, so Zoro just said "Fine, you can do better, show me." It feels like a teacher/student thing, the last lines even adding to that further.
Oh an I love this bit of, I'm presuming, ad-libbed translation: "That's rich coming from a snow bitch." XD.
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Hachi also ended up injuring himself and was not put down again by Zoro, Hyouzou attacked Zoro and was finished off by him, and Tashigi got to Monet first
And Again he treated Helmeppo with the same sort of attitude he treated Tashigi, had Helmeppo been female would that scene had been viewed as sexist?
I posted links to the scenes in question
http://www.mangapanda.com/103-2539-11/one-piece/chapter-432.html
http://www.mangapanda.com/103-2207-19/one-piece/chapter-100.html
An open question, would you view the scene with Bellamy different if Bellamy had been a female captain?
I hope im not coming across as rude, Im honestly just curious.
"and Tashigi got to Monet first"
That's speculation, we don't know that he would've finished Monet off. All evidence from the chapter = no he would not (speculation also/my opinion)."And Again he treated Helmeppo with the same sort of attitude he treated Tashigi, had Helmeppo been female would that scene had been viewed as sexist?"
I don't think that's the same situation, b/c OBVIOUSLY Oda wanted this to be a friendly match. I know it's joked that they don't recognize it but the storyline/plot dictated that's how they were introduced again in such a way to 1 show those 2 characters's growth (colby& helmeppo) and the growth of Zoro&Luffy. My point is it wasn't a real fight and more of a plot device. (If you see Luffy didn't finish off his opponent either). So no, that's not equatable at all.I honestly liked this chapter, but the refusal by so many to see what's obvious is a little…frustrating, I admit. But whatevs, I'm not going to change anyone's viewpoints. Up until this chapter Zoro has only shown restraint to a female when it was Tashigi. The only restraint he's shown to a weaker character in a real fight is that he doesn't outright pwn-murder their ass (literally) but still makes them bleed/faint.
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Cute. They would be so damn cute together you know. But nope, this is One Piece for ya… blah.
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"and Tashigi got to Monet first"
That's speculation, we don't know that he would've finished Monet off. All evidence from the chapter = no he would not (speculation also/my opinion).I say that he would, Its just what CCC said "I don't want to slap a bitch, but if she gets out of line, then I will."
The only thing is Oda will never show this especially for a "pretty" girl.
Now a Unattractive girl would not require Oda to cop out from having his "Good Moral Male" from landing the finishing blow. -
@dwo:
What changed during 2 years with Mihawk? In fact we didnt really know and expected "some new fighting skills" only? Training sword fighting obviously is not just technique but also character and psychology. I like to see character development of Zorro. I like the surprise. He is not the "I draw my sword fast and cut everything" guy anymore, it seems. He is more mature, standing above the scenery and controlling it.
Don't know if this has been quoted on yet but I was reading the topic and I agree with this. Zoro seems more composed now, and Tashigi managed to get under his skin enough to be like " Alright, shut up now". Bam, bisection.
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Zoro is not holding back because sexism. Look for chapter 5 for that.
I think, Like an animal, he don't feel threaten at all. Animal don't kill their enemies (unless for food), they just hurt them enough, so they will not pose a threat to them anymore.
If that's the case, maybe Tashigi is important for Zoro. -
http://www.mangareader.net/103-2219-18/one-piece/chapter-112.html PRETTY GIRL GETTING BEAT UP. And he's the pretty girl that even has a fandom in-universe (iirc there was something about that in one SBS)
So stop saying pretty girls won't get punched.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
But I should talk about the actual chapter... My first thoughts were: Luffy needs to raise the bar... Smoker and Zoro are way badass. And he's still in goofy mode. I'm just dying to see him fighting at his best with no interference.
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So reading this thread, I just learned there exist people who thinks being a gentleman is being sexist. But some girls complain about the death of chivalry. Oh every since the 20th century, this topic is a major annoyance.
Took the words right out of my mouth…
I do find the discussion this week better than most weeks though. I don't agree that Zoro is portrayed as sexist in the chapter because of the subtleties in Zoro's speech. It seems more likely that he doesn't want to both with weak opponents if he doesn't really need to rather than holding back because of some belief that women are inferior. In fact, Zoro's past should really motivate him to believe otherwise. I agree that OP does have some sexism in it not because the male characters are gentlemanly to the female ones but because we haven't seen as many powerful and world-influencing women as there are men (though this could be because of Oda's target audience: adolescent boys).
Just thought I'd chime in about sexism because that's the topic this week. Sexism is not treating men and women differently. It's limiting the opportunities of a person solely based on gender. In fact, believe it or not, science has shown that men and women are, in fact, different. Surprise! It's silly to think that all women should grow to 6 foot 3 and dead lift 150kg. Getting something from the top shelf or carrying heavy bags for women are acts of kindness and an appreciation for differences. Seems silly (and confusing) to me to think of chivalry as an act of oppression.
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! @Urouge:
! > Absolutely. Sexism is a main focus of the entire chapter. Thanks Tashigi. That doesn't excuse the fanbase from also being guilty of the same thing to a degree. It's not like every character with boobs is proposed as the next crewmate because Tashigi is a proponent of gender equality.
! Take Tashigi out of the equation, you have last chapter with Monet mentioning Zoro was purely on the defensive, Sanji alluding during his conversation with G5 that he has a soft spot for women, and Zoro himself mentioning there's some things he doesn't like to cut, and I think you agree that's women as well. Fans blowing it out of proportion? That's the internet, but the argument is there, Tashigi or not.
! > Even still, Zoro incapacitated Hyouzou without ever actually hurting him (until the finishing blow). He basically attempted the same thing when he cut Monet in half. It wasn't a move meant to hurt her, but rather to incapacitate her. The problem I see with your argument is that you're comparing the fights at different stages. Zoro also seemed content to be pretty passive when Hyouzou was full of fighting spirit through the beginning of that fight.I said in my last post that him not attacking weak people is bunch of bull in my eyes. This seemed more of a case where he wanted to see what she had, which can't happen if he just puts her down immediately. I hate to beat a dead horse, but again it was the same way with Hyouzou.
! Even if he was testing her skills, Zoro seemed to realize that Monet was weaker than him and was just waiting for Monet to back down (which Zoro never even demonstrated his superiority to Monet until he had to step in so Tashigi wouldn't lose a shoulder). How long would it have taken for Zoro to reach that stage? The way it was written, it seemed like Zoro did that at the very last second because there was no other choice instead of stopping Monet once he realized he could take her at any moment.
! One other thing. If this was truly because Zoro was testing out her abilities, that would've been stated. There was no explicit confirmation that this is just how Zoro operates now.
! If anything, Zoro's fight with Hody is more applicable. He needed to take care of a threat to the people around him. He didn't test his abilities, the manga just showed one finishing slice.
! > It was never his philosophy before Kuina died. Granted it's a lot of interpretation on my part, so I understand anyone being resistant to the idea.
! Was it? I mean, yeah he was sparring with Kuina, but they never used real swords before, and defeating doesn't have to mean slicing a woman up, which fits with his character seen so far. And Zoro could never get a clean hit in before with Kuina anyways.
! For me, the more likely answer is just that Kuina's father taught Zoro traditional values while growing up, and Zoro's (Oda's) personality just makes the idea of hurting women bad, which while not necessarily a bad thing, in the right context…
! > You misunderstand. What I mean is that Zoro's actions aren't blatantly sexist as far as I can tell. The reason they're viewed that way is because of the context Oda put them in, and Tashigi's dialog, rather than anything in particular that he did. Tashigi just straight up rants about sexism, so of course her character is soaking in it. And yet again, he did the same with Hyouzou, so it's not fair to blame sexism.
! This is just one of those agree to disagree. Some people don't agree that Zoro's actions are acceptable because of the context it was in. Saying you don't like harming a girl is fine. Trying actively to avoid hurting a girl even though lives are on the line is another.
! > Depends on perspective. From a literary perspective, it's uninteresting to end a fight immediately, and creating this situation with Zoro and Tashigi was clearly the author's goal. From a character perspective, it's not even the first fight that Zoro has dragged out since the timeskip. Last chapter nobody was getting torn up that needed saving. And before anyone argues about Nami and Robin, Zoro didn't seem particularly worried about them and possesses mantra. If things were going to end badly, he could have responded like he did in this chapter at any time before it happened. I think the mantra angle in particular is ignored a little too much.
! I think we can both agree that the problem is because of the literary perspective since there were different ways to write this that didn't create this kind of scenario.
! As for the in story explanation, it just seemed reckless. You've mentioned Zoro trusts the crew can handle themselves, but if that was really the case then he could've just let them fight Monet like he let the crew fight the little dragon.
! The fact that she's a logia and the whole "leave it to me" line suggests that he was the only one that could handle her, and if they fought her then they were screwed.
! You've mentioned mantra, so something like giving him the slip could be easily remedied, but mantra isn't always effective.
! And mantra doesn't work as to prevent every attack. Luffy getting affected by Caesar's oxygen attack is a good example. Mantra didn't save Luffy then. Monet could've pulled out a similar move, or maybe just the sleeping gas that the Cool Brothers used, and Zoro would've been incapacitated and the crew in danger. It's that kind of attitude he warned Luffy about before. -
Phew I thought this thread will implode, but looks like good criticisms from both sides made everything better hurray. But still I am irked at Zoro's attitude cause you know, you could incapacitate Monet in another way other than killing her? They are not life threatened or time-pressured or anything.
I really do not want to be involve on any "beauty and ugly" women treatment talk especially in One Piece. It really seemed to be a trivial and shallow matter. We already have Lola and Kokoro who are exaggerated by Oda to be ugly, but are really beautiful on the inside. I believe it is more of a hard thing for Oda to draw, not a deep ideal of treatment of characters based on appearance.
And hey we just had this, definitely a pretty woman being punched http://www.mangahere.com/manga/one_piece/v60/c680/16.html
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To anyone asking why Zoro didn't finish Monet with one move, as he did to the Octopus fishman, and many others. Zoro's intimidation slash was analogous to the vertical cutting of Hyuzu's swords. It was meant to force the opponent to surrender, by intimidation alone. And by the moment that Monet went to attack Zoro, he would have finished her off, just like he did with many others, but Tashigi jumped in. What should Zoro do, punch her in the head, so he can finish a job that he isn't even interested in? And again if anyone asks why Zoro didn't make the intimidation trick eariler the answer is simple. He was defending his nakama. Exactly like he did with the Nyaban brothers and Usopp. It is easier to protect your nakama by defending than with attacking, when you are trying to buy time for them to get out. Zoro could of 'course easily deal with Monet, but if he focused on attaking her, she could hurt his nakama, because she is logia, and a damn smart one. So Zoro didn't want to risk it, and waited for them to get out, simple as that.
And to AppleSauce that said that Zoro has OHKOed many fodder characters before, yet he didn't do the same with Monet, the answer is so simple. Zoro OHKOes fodder, when there is the need to, meaning that his friends are in danger, or he wants to hurry up. Monet wasn't the only one that Zoro didn't OHKO, we have Hyuzu, and some others too that i cant remember now. Long story short, Zoro gives to a weak opponent the chance to forfeit, if it is a 1v1. In situationss where everything is a mess, he doesn't have the luxury to do this. And don't ask me why didn't Zoro intimidate Monet from the moment that he saw her, because i have explained multiple times that he didn't want to risk his nakama getting hurt, the same scenario that happened with the Nyaban brothers.
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@gotta<3OP:
http://www.mangareader.net/103-2219-18/one-piece/chapter-112.html PRETTY GIRL GETTING BEAT UP. And he's the pretty girl that even has a fandom in-universe (iirc there was something about that in one SBS)
So stop saying pretty girls won't get punched.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
But I should talk about the actual chapter... My first thoughts were: Luffy needs to raise the bar... Smoker and Zoro are way badass. And he's still in goofy mode. I'm just dying to see him fighting at his best with no interference.
@gotta<3OP:
http://www.mangareader.net/103-2219-18/one-piece/chapter-112.html PRETTY GIRL GETTING BEAT UP. And he's the pretty girl that even has a fandom in-universe (iirc there was something about that in one SBS)
So stop saying pretty girls won't get punched.
If go down this path, this weeks discussion will end up like last weeks. I've explained those things before.
Luffy Punching the shit out of Vivi is something which is debatable and even justified.
Luffy hitting Vivi(on Going Merry) is Scolding bad people. Luffy Punching Miss Valentine is comic relief.
Also it is only Luffy who does these things because Oda also has given Luffy a Childish character.Luffy has no such issues unlike Sanji or Zoro who hesitates. The only thing is Oda willing to show this issue Seriously or not, and I believe he will not. Its just how people think in different parts of the world. Oda's Presentation of Zoro's character is honorable in my opinion, its a good thing he goes easy on women.
Imagine an author who hates vilolence on women sending a message that hitting women is alright…
When Oda wants us to hate a villain he pretty much makes us see him beating the shit out of a woman. Those types of characters are the most HATED in this manga.
This same author cannot send a message of having his male "Good Moral" characters hitting women.
Oda goes above and beyond to show this.The Big problem here is, like I've been saying there's a double standard here. "pretty" women vs. "unattractive" women
We see how differently both are treated. -
Just have to say, CCC, Urouge, Gizmo et al., I've been really enjoying your posts. Overall, the thread's much more readable than the last time this came up in a chapter discussion thread.
To be honest, I think the real issue isn't Zoro's behavior, but whether or not the person arguing thinks that his behavior was justified. That is, do we think it was okay and consistent (two different questions) for Zoro to go easy on Monet? There's really no doubt, not after the MS translation, that while part of the situation was just like with Hyouzou and Monet isn't super strong, part of it was because, indeed, Zoro doesn't want to hit women if he doesn't have to (but he will). That's the consistency part and for the most part the thread seems to agree. As for the "okay" part–some of us have issue with that, some of us don't. (But at least it's not like he's Sanji 2.0, amirite guys? )
Just thought I'd chime in about sexism because that's the topic this week. Sexism is not treating men and women differently. It's limiting the opportunities of a person solely based on gender. In fact, believe it or not, science has shown that men and women are, in fact, different. Surprise! It's silly to think that all women should grow to 6 foot 3 and dead lift 150kg. Getting something from the top shelf or carrying heavy bags for women are acts of kindness and an appreciation for differences. Seems silly (and confusing) to me to think of chivalry as an act of oppression.
Ehhhhhh. Sexism is treating men and women differently, which includes but is not entirely, limiting opportunities based on gender. Yes, men and women are different. However, there is more variation within genders than between them! You should carry heavy bags for all people who can't carry them, you should open doors for all people that look like they need help, regardless of gender identity. There will be some women who can do these things and some men who can't, and broad generalizations don't help anyone. It's the human thing to help all that you can.
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@ DarkHamster: Yes it's speculation at this point but if Tashigi hadn't gotten that last strike in I highly doubt Zoro would have just let Monet's last strike go without retaliation. He was on his way out the door he wouldn't have let Monet just wander after him and lead her back to his crew when his duty was to prevent her from interfering. He already proved he would strike out against her if he needed to. Highly arrogant, yes. But Zoro has typically always been that way. He knows he's badass. He can walk the walk lol.
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My actual problem with this chapter is it seemed just like a way for Oda to try and get Tashigi redemption. But she couldn't save herself without Zoro's help. I would have much rather a) Zoro finished Monet immediately b) Had Tashigi and Monet go all out for a few chapters while Zoro went forward. The problem this chapter creates is why didn't Zoro take Monet down immediately since she had already attacked Robin, and if he didn't parry her attacks and just beat her he could have already gone on with his crew. The only thing I can think of his he knew Sanji was coming and didn't want to cause a problem by attacking a woman in front of Sanji. Then he should have finished Monet right after but instead allowed Tashigi to fight, and sat in the corner which contradict what he told Luffy.
–In other words I think the chapter was a pointless chapter to try and make Tashigi look good but failing to do so. And also making Zoro look pointless as he failed to follow his own advice to Luffy. Apart from Zoro's intimidation and Sanji calling him stupid the chapter was probably one of the worst ones in the PH Arc imho.
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Not another sexism discussion…
All this talk about Zoro "killing" and Tashigi dealing the "final and "fatal" blow... You guys realize that Monet isn't dead, right?
No-one (two notable exceptions aside) dies in OP.
It wouldn't have been any different for a male enemy, none of the opponents ever get killed, especially so explicitly.
He "killed" her about as thoroughly as Tashigi did, which is to say she'll be back in a few chapters.I am somewhat mystified that Zoro is so aloof about fighting as of late, but it seems that he got to a point where he simply gets bored and disinterested if the opponent is not a challenge, which is the case here.
That has been consistent since the timeskip, like it or not. -
@gotta<3OP:
http://www.mangareader.net/103-2219-18/one-piece/chapter-112.html PRETTY GIRL GETTING BEAT UP. And he's the pretty girl that even has a fandom in-universe (iirc there was something about that in one SBS)
So stop saying pretty girls won't get punched.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
But I should talk about the actual chapter... My first thoughts were: Luffy needs to raise the bar... Smoker and Zoro are way badass. And he's still in goofy mode. I'm just dying to see him fighting at his best with no interference.
The criticism of this chapter comes from the fact this behavior is unlike Zoro's past behavior (tashigi aside)
so this would go against his behavior now…...since he could've easily just finished monet off...........which goes to my original criticism that Zoro has always been one to deal the blow and get the job done. That fight in chapter 112, was a joke, Luffy was fat for half of it. AND Luffy has never been one to show restraint when he fights an opponent, whether female or male (he's the one that finished the girl, not zoro...so the point still stands).
@ DarkHamster: Yes it's speculation at this point but if Tashigi hadn't gotten that last strike in I highly doubt Zoro would have just let Monet's last strike go without retaliation. He was on his way out the door he wouldn't have let Monet just wander after him and lead her back to his crew when his duty was to prevent her from interfering. He already proved he would strike out against her if he needed to. Highly arrogant, yes. But Zoro has typically always been that way. He knows he's badass. He can walk the walk lol.
none of his strikes have been to finish her off (not kill but incapcitate), when Robin got cut: nope, chopper nearly got eaten: nope, when Nami was in danger: nope, when Tashigi almost go her shoulders ripped apart: knick on her cheek. I mean he could've easily just you know, done what Tashigi did. She's alive but incapacitated. No matter how arrogant he finished off his opponents, he's more than ample opportunities/reasons to do it. And I'm basing this argument NOT on if tashigi hadn't got in the way, I'm basing on the past 2 chapters.
Sidenote: how do you do the "spoiler" hidden message thing????
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Cute. They would be so damn cute together you know. But nope, this is One Piece for ya… blah.
Who would want that? Zoro would be worried about her the whole time and it would punch into his goals. Zoro isn't interested in women, he has two of the best looking ones we've seen thus far in the series on his ship and he has no attraction to them what so ever. Does this mean he's gay? No, he's very goal oriented and doesn't like his distractions. Besides which bad as pirate would settle for one woman? Well maybe Roger, but don't you think for a second he wasn't out pimpin before he met Rouge.
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The criticism of this chapter comes from the fact this behavior is unlike Zoro's past behavior (tashigi aside)
so this would go against his behavior now…...since he could've easily just finished monet off...........which goes to my original criticism that Zoro has always been one to deal the blow and get the job done. That fight in chapter 112, was a joke, Luffy was fat for half of it. AND Luffy has never been one to show restraint when he fights an opponent, whether female or male (he's the one that finished the girl, not zoro...so the point still stands).
none of his strikes have been to finish her off (not kill but incapcitate), when Robin got cut: nope, chopper nearly got eaten: nope, when Nami was in danger: nope, when Tashigi almost go her shoulders ripped apart: knick on her cheek. I mean he could've easily just you know, done what Tashigi did. She's alive but incapacitated. No matter how arrogant he finished off his opponents, he's more than ample opportunities/reasons to do it. And I'm basing this argument NOT on if tashigi hadn't got in the way, I'm basing on the past 2 chapters.
Sidenote: how do you do the "spoiler" hidden message thing????
to hide messages just [ spoiler ] message [ /spoiler ] no spaces in the brackets.
I thought that was the point though, was that he deemed her pretty weak and didn't really feel that he had to utterly destroy her. Also Monet got in sneak attacks after hiding within the snow. And again, Zoro has some faith in his crew, they managed to get away anyways. The other issue is that from a writing stand point there needs to be a little bit of s struggle. If he dropped Monet immediately after Robin got stabbed they would have out paced Tashigi. We got to see that she has acquired a few skills like Soru and the Haki to harm a Logia.
I know a lot of people want Tashigi to be on par with Zoro, but she's not going to ever hit that mark. This was harkening back to their initial issues back in Logue town, and Tashigi not acknowledging what she actually sees in front of her. Pretty much everything she believes about Zoro is wrong. She even goes into the flashback and still refuses to accept what Zoro said at face value. That he doesn't want to cut down someone that looks like his dead friend. She calls him childish and warps it to thinking he's automatically going easy because she's female. I can see why she would have such hang ups with being so coddled by all her fodder Marines despite actually being vastly stronger/more skilled than them.
What I think is funny is that she tells him she's looking down on him while she's being pouty. I think in many ways that's a bit more irritating than what Zoro may or may not be doing. If she's going into every fight thinking every guy she comes across is looking down on her cause of her bewbs then that's her own fault. As was the damage she took during this chapter.
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I was kind of late to read the chapter. Was not having internet access till now. Mangareader translations were horrible as always. Glad there was a release from mangastream.
I have read all the pages of the discussion, and I unlike many members I liked this chapter and dI don't think Zoro's action to be sexist.
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none of his strikes have been to finish her off (not kill but incapcitate), when Robin got cut: nope, chopper nearly got eaten: nope, when Nami was in danger: nope, when Tashigi almost go her shoulders ripped apart: knick on her cheek. I mean he could've easily just you know, done what Tashigi did. She's alive but incapacitated. No matter how arrogant he finished off his opponents, he's more than ample opportunities/reasons to do it. And I'm basing this argument NOT on if tashigi hadn't got in the way, I'm basing on the past 2 chapters.
In the last chapter Zoro was defending the crew .
Monet was running from Zoro most of the time , the one time she did attack him the marines came then she went after them .
Money got cocky because she thought Zoro won't hit women just like tashigi did and let down her guard .
No way would Zoro finish off someone when they are fighting someone else in that sort of 1 on 1 battle.
He even said she should have run since she knew she could not beat him , after he cut her down he left just like the Hyouzou fight but this time Tashigi finish her off .I think people should know that Tashigi finsihing her off because she still belives that Zoro would not have done it but he did it with Hyouzou .
This is a character flaw she has because she still refuse to believe what Zoro tells her at face value .
That is a problem with Tashigi not Zoro , she needs to get over that to grow . -
Zoro didn't attack Monet properly at first because when he was thinking about it he got lost in his thoughts.
Or maybe Monet reminded him of someone? -
Unlike many others I actually liked this chapter a lot, my favorite part was when Tashigi was talking about Zoro in her mind as the latter was walking away, "what kind of hellish training have you undergone to have become such beasts" just…wow, made me thought how tough training with Mihawk must've been, it's no wonder Zoro's become such a beast. Coming back to the subject I wasn't expecting for this fight to continue, I was certain Oda was gonna move to another party. I was glad Oda decided to focus on this fight from beginning to end, personally I find it annoying when we are shown only bits of a fight with each chapter. I hope next chapter will focus on only Smoker vs Vergo. That aside, since the strawhats made their comeback after the 2 years training Zoro's struck as the most powerful strawhat, Luffy receiving that bite from Hody and struggling to beat him made him lose some points to me.
Greetings.
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Unlike many others I actually liked this chapter a lot, my favorite part was when Tashigi was talking about Zoro in her mind as the latter was walking away, "what kind of hellish training have you undergone to have become such beasts" just…wow, made me thought how tough training with Mihawk must've been, it's no wonder Zoro's become such a beast. Coming back to the subject I wasn't expecting for this fight to continue, I was certain Oda was gonna move to another party. I was glad Oda decided to focus on this fight from beginning to end, personally I find it annoying when we are shown only bits of a fight with each chapter. I hope next chapter will focus on only Smoker vs Vergo. That aside, since the strawhats made their comeback after the 2 years training Zoro's struck as the most powerful strawhat, Luffy receiving that bite from Hody and struggling to beat him made him lose some points to me.
Greetings.
For me it is Sanji. :happy:
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Unlike many others I actually liked this chapter a lot, my favorite part was when Tashigi was talking about Zoro in her mind as the latter was walking away, "what kind of hellish training have you undergone to have become such beasts" just…wow, made me thought how tough training with Mihawk must've been, it's no wonder Zoro's become such a beast. Coming back to the subject I wasn't expecting for this fight to continue, I was certain Oda was gonna move to another party. I was glad Oda decided to focus on this fight from beginning to end, personally I find it annoying when we are shown only bits of a fight with each chapter. I hope next chapter will focus on only Smoker vs Vergo. That aside, since the strawhats made their comeback after the 2 years training Zoro's struck as the most powerful strawhat, Luffy receiving that bite from Hody and struggling to beat him made him lose some points to me. Greetings.
Luffy was underwater which SEVERELY limits his power plus Hordy had gone through his transformation then unlike when he had met Zoro. Also he beat Hordy in two attacks (unless your basing this on the anime which was a complete eff up). Until Luffy is able to fight on dry land or Zoro has to fight an opponent and is only able to use half his power while the opponent is in a new mode then it's not fair at all to say Zoro is stronger. Even though it was made in jest when Zoro commented about Luffy taking out 50,000 fishmen I think he was also attributing this to Luffy's tremendous power.
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Luffy was underwater which SEVERELY limits his power plus Hordy had gone through his transformation then unlike when he had met Zoro. Also he beat Hordy in two attacks (unless your basing this on the anime which was a complete eff up). Until Luffy is able to fight on dry land or Zoro has to fight an opponent and is only able to use half his power while the opponent is in a new mode then it's not fair at all to say Zoro is stronger. Even though it was made in jest when Zoro commented about Luffy taking out 50,000 fishmen I think he was also attributing this to Luffy's tremendous power.
100% agreed. Underwater as a df user who had only the bubble to move around. Luffy nearly destroyed Noah which was about 1/3 the size of fisherman island (though oda has scaling issues so it might be smaller) but still, that's pretty impressive. And I doubt Luffy has shown his "full" strength yet.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
In the last chapter Zoro was defending the crew .
Monet was running from Zoro most of the time , the one time she did attack him the marines came then she went after them .
Money got cocky because she thought Zoro won't hit women just like tashigi did and let down her guard .
No way would Zoro finish off someone when they are fighting someone else in that sort of 1 on 1 battle.
He even said she should have run since she knew he could not beat him , after he cut her down he left just like the Hyouzou fight but this time Tashigi finish her off .I think people should know that Tashigi finsihing her off because she still belives that Zoro would not have done it but he did it with Hyouzou .
This is a character flaw she has because she still refuse to believe what Zoro tells her at face value .
That is a problem with Tashigi not Zoro , she needs to get over that to grow .I'm going mention this last point and I'm set. Zoro was parry'ing her sword attacks at one point, if he's as strong as it's been implied, he could cut her swords (like he did to Hyouzou) and land a blow. Also he was parry'ing her PHYSICAL wing attacks, he could've cut her wings. He's shown that he can cut her snow walls, what's the difference against hard snow wings? Fail much. Instead of blaming Tashigi for reading his intentions incorrectly blame what's presented to us at face value. He had CHANCES (as in more than one), he didn't take the shot. Whether he considered her too fodder or it was b/c she's a pretty innocent girl, that's another argument. But the argument that "she was running away the whole time" is a pretty feeble one.
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What I found most interesting is that Sanji trusted Zoro not to be a cold-hearted bastard when it came to dealing with Monet. Compare that to when Sanji had to stop Zoro from attacking Nami during the infamous "betrayal" in the Arlong arc. It further highlights that despite their rivalry and their insults, they not only respect each other but trust they will get the job done right.
It also definitely highlights the differences in in Sanji's and Zoro's moral code. As we all already know, Sanji is a complete gentleman – never verbally or physically abuse a woman under any circumstances, though with one contradictory quirk: he can't help but to dramatically express his admiration for beauty and his own sexual attraction. Obviously, most women he runs into are more turned off by this quirk which often cancels out the former in regards to pursuits of romance.
Zoro on the other hand, is more driven by a personal code of honor combined with his past experiences with. Not so much to the comedic extremes of Kinemon and Momo, but the general rule of not going all-out on weaker or less skilled opponents, including women. However, it seems he has a slight hang-up toward going all-out on women which is more difficult to determine. In may be rooted in the aforementioned code of honor which striking down a woman who is not evenly matched would be very dishonorable.
However, I think it has more to do with his childhood rivalry with Kuina (who was always his better) and the overall impact her untimely and tragic death had upon him. It's possible that Kuina' memory/spirit subconsciously keeps him from going all-out on other female opponents, especially those that can't match him. It might not be the reason, but it's important to remember that Kuina's death was among the most traumatic things in Zoro's life and may likely be a factor in how he had treated female opponents since.
This recent exchange with Tashigi appears very reminiscent as a role reversal of the Zoro/Kuina rivalry with Tashigi constantly trying (and failing) to one-up Zoro and Zoro having the presence of a sensei-like figure.
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Probably has been posted already, but I think people (and Tashigi) are misunderstanding Zoro here.
It's not that he won't cut "women". It's that he won't fight with all his strength against weaker oponents. His fight here is exactly like his fight against the octopus in Fishman Island. He fights to teach his enemies how weak they really are. If they don't get the clue and keep trying, he will finish them off.
When Monet was about to strike, had Tashigi not "saved" Zoro, Zoro would just give Monet a really hard lesson.
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Thinking back to a week ago. Zoro not directly attacking Monet because she was a woman was heavily on my mind. The thing is, Tashigi never really entered the equation for me, which in retrospect seems crazy. And now that I think about why, it's obvious. Sanji's arrival was imminent, and it dominated my focus to the point where Tashigi became invisible to me. It acted as one of the most effective smokescreens in quite a while. I think the setup for this has been deeper than I first realized.
@Gizmo, What I find curious is how you can tip-toe around the sledgehammer of an argument that is the parallels to the Hyouzou fight at this point. You totally ignore it in this post to the point of not even acknowledging it, when it basically acts as proof that Zoro's actions aren't based on the gender of his opponent.
Anyways…
[hide]@Gizmo:
Take Tashigi out of the equation, you have last chapter with Monet mentioning Zoro was purely on the defensive, Sanji alluding during his conversation with G5 that he has a soft spot for women, and Zoro himself mentioning there's some things he doesn't like to cut, and I think you agree that's women as well. Fans blowing it out of proportion? That's the internet, but the argument is there, Tashigi or not.
It's a primary, literary focus of the chapter, so it's not surprising that it would be looked at from various angles. But WHY is it a primary focus of the chapter? Tashigi.
Even if he was testing her skills, Zoro seemed to realize that Monet was weaker than him and was just waiting for Monet to back down (which Zoro never even demonstrated his superiority to Monet until he had to step in so Tashigi wouldn't lose a shoulder). How long would it have taken for Zoro to reach that stage? The way it was written, it seemed like Zoro did that at the very last second because there was no other choice instead of stopping Monet once he realized he could take her at any moment.
In a lot of cases we don't get a good feel for how long fights take, so that part is irrelevant. Yes, he clearly wanted her to just back down and slink away. I also think we agree that Zoro was just dragging the fight out.
Was it? I mean, yeah he was sparring with Kuina, but they never used real swords before, and defeating doesn't have to mean slicing a woman up, which fits with his character seen so far. And Zoro could never get a clean hit in before with Kuina anyways.
Their final fight used real swords (well, I think it was their final fight anyways). It ended in Kuina stomping him, followed by her crying about being born as a girl and Zoro getting pissed that she'd display such weakness after defeating him. The next thing we know, she's dead. There was certainly no hesitation on his part to attempt to beat her, real swords or not.
For me, the more likely answer is just that Kuina's father taught Zoro traditional values while growing up, and Zoro's (Oda's) personality just makes the idea of hurting women bad, which while not necessarily a bad thing, in the right context…
That just doesn't fit, though. I mean, think about it. "Oh Zoro, you shouldn't hurt girls, but please do your best to defeat my daughter." There's no supporting evidence to such a claim at all. The things that Koshiro told Kuina about girls being weaker were done in private. Zoro heard them from Kuina, not Koshiro.
This is just one of those agree to disagree. Some people don't agree that Zoro's actions are acceptable because of the context it was in. Saying you don't like harming a girl is fine. Trying actively to avoid hurting a girl even though lives are on the line is another.
This is exactly why Zoro's actions are acceptable, and outlines the differences between him and Sanji. Zoro proved that he WILL hurt a girl when lives are on the line. I mean, he DID cut her when it got serious. You can't deny what actually happened.
I think we can both agree that the problem is because of the literary perspective since there were different ways to write this that didn't create this kind of scenario.
Absolutely. This way was chosen because of Tashigi. Looking at it from that viewpoint, it seems fine to me.
As for the in story explanation, it just seemed reckless. You've mentioned Zoro trusts the crew can handle themselves, but if that was really the case then he could've just let them fight Monet like he let the crew fight the little dragon.
The fact that she's a logia and the whole "leave it to me" line suggests that he was the only one that could handle her, and if they fought her then they were screwed.
See, this is a matter of defense vs offense. He says "leave it to me" because he understands they're at an extreme disadvantage trying to attack a logia without haki. Defending is a different story. They can defend themselves.
You've mentioned mantra, so something like giving him the slip could be easily remedied, but mantra isn't always effective.
And mantra doesn't work as to prevent every attack. Luffy getting affected by Caesar's oxygen attack is a good example. Mantra didn't save Luffy then. Monet could've pulled out a similar move, or maybe just the sleeping gas that the Cool Brothers used, and Zoro would've been incapacitated and the crew in danger. It's that kind of attitude he warned Luffy about before.
Luffy was careless and allowed himself to get blindsided by a type of attack he wasn't expecting. Zoro kept his eye
swide open. I don't equate him not finishing the fight as soon as it started with him being careless. It's about being on guard the entire time and ready for anything.If she's capable of something that can get by him while he's on guard? Well, that's exactly the sort of thing he wants to know about, and would be proof of why it would make sense to drag fights out to gain such experience.
[/hide]For me it is Sanji. :happy:
Lol of course it is.
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Not debating… but WB's dream wants to have a family and not to become the strongest... And look... he was the strongest person in the world. I doubt each top tier ala the admirals, Shanks and Co all have the dream be the strongest "zoan/marine/pirate/martial artist" in the world
You are right but my point is that the person who tries to be strongest and works towards it actually sees more results…and as for whitebead I think he just beame strong to protect his family (which kept on growing)...and for shanks he tried to be strong as he and mihawk used to compete a lot...
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I'll reply in a bit, but I came up with a better way to describe my thoughts that I was hoping to add in my notes before you replied.
Monet vs Zoro is way more like Hody vs Zoro. Hody could only be handled by Zoro in that situation, and people would've been hurt otherwise. And well, you know how that turned out. Zoro didn't leave him uninjured or "testing out his ability.
The other thing is I don't know if it's been explicit about Zoro testing out abilities
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Unlike many others I actually liked this chapter a lot, my favorite part was when Tashigi was talking about Zoro in her mind as the latter was walking away, "what kind of hellish training have you undergone to have become such beasts" just…wow, made me thought how tough training with Mihawk must've been, it's no wonder Zoro's become such a beast. Coming back to the subject I wasn't expecting for this fight to continue, I was certain Oda was gonna move to another party. I was glad Oda decided to focus on this fight from beginning to end, personally I find it annoying when we are shown only bits of a fight with each chapter. I hope next chapter will focus on only Smoker vs Vergo. That aside, since the strawhats made their comeback after the 2 years training Zoro's struck as the most powerful strawhat, Luffy receiving that bite from Hody and struggling to beat him made him lose some points to me.
Greetings.
Glad to find company. I liked the chapter a lot too…I can njoy OP if it pleases me and I don't really concern myself with many of the debating here...but its still nice to discuss like this...I dont really understand why there is so much displeasure abt this chapter..Its natural for any man to be soft towards women and children..and ofcourse if they tick you off you retaliate..thats just what happened here..as for why he waited for ppl to get away bcoz mabe he dint want ppl to se his soft side..he likes acting like a badass...and so much of miss monday this and that...he got ticked off as simple as that..
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Monet vs Zoro is way more like Hody vs Zoro. Hody could only be handled by Zoro in that situation, and people would've been hurt otherwise. And well, you know how that turned out. Zoro didn't leave him uninjured or "testing out his ability.
The other thing is I don't know if it's been explicit about Zoro testing out abilities
The major difference is that Hody vs Zoro was on a very short clock. The room was flooding, and he was underwater without air. There was no time to drag anything out.
It would've been the same if the biscuit room was being flooded with gas, but that wasn't the case. There was no immediate environmental danger.