ME NAME IS JOHN ERECTION, TALKER OF THE HOUSE, AND ME NEED LEADER HOLD MY HAND EVERY STEP OF WAY ON WHY FIGHT HAPPEN cries copiously
Rock the Casbah: Arab-World Revolutions
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@JERK:
From the congress, who are a bunch of worthless shitheads so whatever, but also from people like Jon Stewart.
False equivalency strikes again.
Preventing somebody from killing his citizens by selective airstrikes is exactly the same as launching a massive preemptive invasion of a country where that wasn't happening. Except that it isn't on any level beyond "Military shoots at things" and it's downright embarrassing to suggest that it is.
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This is basically similar to the Kosovo War, I don't know where people think Iraq figures in.
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Going by the clips played on the Daily Show last night, the thought process is apparently:
Obama criticized the Iraq War as being something that we can't afford and that is wrong therefore he shouldn't start a war regardless of reason.
It's trite and stupid, but that seems to be the general idea.
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Going by the clips played on the Daily Show last night, the thought process is apparently:
Obama criticized the Iraq War as being something that we can't afford and that is wrong therefore he shouldn't start a war regardless of reason.
It's trite and stupid, but that seems to be the general idea.
Did he not said that he is not against all wars but he is only aganist war that is stupid and unnessessary? I remember reading that somewhere.
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Forty years? Is Libya turning into Candyland?
Libyan Candy. Mmmmm mmmmm… Hey Mr. Hat, go get some Libyan Candy!
"Gunshot"
Oh my god, Gaddafi killed Mr. Hat!
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@JERK:
This is basically similar to the Kosovo War, I don't know where people think Iraq figures in.
The Iraq war was about Saddam leaving office and making the country a democracy. The Yugoslav Wars were 90% about racial tensions not about Milosevic leaving office and democracy taking over. All we had to do in Yugoslavia was to support the split up. Now we could do the same thing in Libya of course, but we don't. This time around we want the rebels to win in all of the country and take over against the will of many other people. That is a much harder task to complete and given Libya’s bigger size and population you would probably need a bigger KFOR this time around. Then combine that with Libya being an oil rich, muslim country where ground troupes maybe not be fancied even by those they are to protect. It's not the perfect mirror image but Iraq figures in much better than the Kosovo does.
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-A French fighter jet shot down a Libyan warplane violating the no-fly zone over the country.
-ABC News reports that the Libyan warplane that was allegedly shot down by French fighter jets today was a "galeb" single-engine military aircraft.
-Al Arabiya: Activists to AFP: 100 were killed in Daraa (Syria) yesterday. (I think this number is not accurate. Doctors in Darra said they received 37 bodies)
-Al Jazeera: Advisor to President Bashar: Syria will soon witness important decisions that will satisfy the people's ambitions.
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The Iraq war was about Saddam leaving office and making the country a democracy. The Yugoslav Wars were 90% about racial tensions not about Milosevic leaving office and democracy taking over.
Our military objective isn't removing Gaddafi.
We're using air strikes to support essentially a faction within a nation without explicitly aiming at destroying the government. And it's humanitarian driven.
All we had to do in Yugoslavia was to support the split up.
All we….we had to fire missiles at the Serbians.
Now we could do the same thing in Libya of course, but we don't. This time around we want the rebels to win in all of the country and take over against the will of many other people.
Oh that's cute. Someone under the impression that vast parts of the Libyan population still support Gaddafi.
Guys! No one in Tripoli is revolting
now, looks like a split!I'm glad you've been following the thread.
That is a much harder task to complete and given Libya’s bigger size and population
lollll
Did you just look at the size of Libya and assume it was highly populated??
There are more people in Serbia ALONE, and that's not even counting Kosovo and Montenegro.Then combine that with Libya being an oil rich, muslim country where ground troupes maybe not be fancied even by those they are to protect.
You have brought absolutely fucking nothing to this thread but misinformation and now, stereotypes.
We're not going to send ground troops in the first place, this out of the question for this sort of operation just as it was in Yugoslavia.
And yes, of course, muslims just hate Americans soooo much!! It's not like one of the two pilots ejected from the crashed american jet was rescued by the rebels and delivered back to the Navy safe and sound! No! They strung him up for not having a beard!It's not the perfect mirror image but Iraq figures in much better than the Kosovo does.
it's a horrible horrible comparison in every sense.
That was a full scale attack manned started, and planned entirely by the US.
This is an international airstrike humanitarian mission meant to give support fire to victims of a dictator who has begin a bloody campaign against part of his people. -
-Al Arabiya: Syria increases salaries of state employees & will study lifting state of emergency law.
-Syria's government promises to reform laws on political parties as well as a new media law & to fight corruption.
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-A doctor in Misurata told AFP that 109 people have been killed in Misurata and more than 1,300 wounded in a week. On Thursday alone "four martyrs fell because of sniper fire," he added.
-Reuters: Rebel spokesman: Libyan rebels kill 30 government snipers in Misurata and manage to reach the centre of town.
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@joekido:
Did he not said that he is not against all wars but he is only aganist war that is stupid and unnessessary? I remember reading that somewhere.
His debates with McCain alone are a pretty good example of Obama stating that he doesn't have a problem with military force so long as it's necessary and direct.
The current idiocy is from people who either weren't paying attention to what he was saying back then and don't really know what is going in Libya now or that would criticize him no matter what he does.
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His debates with McCain alone are a pretty good example of Obama stating that he doesn't have a problem with military force so long as it's necessary and direct.
The current idiocy is from people who either weren't paying attention to what he was saying back then and don't really know what is going in Libya now or that would criticize him no matter what he does.
Everyone pays attention to the new president and will discuss what he does, but not a lot of people pay attention to international events and politics which can lead to some problems like just listening to whatever your friend or relative says instead of researching on your own to make your own conclusion.
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If anyone's interested in the various reactions here's Michel Collon's (a famous belgium journalist) on the military intervention. It's an interesting read even though inspite of this I still support the intervention if it stops the attacks on civilians. (Have there been any reports of civilian casualties made by the coalition's attacks?)
Extract:
Is the repression not more violent in Libya ?
The repression was very violent in Egypt but NATO never sent warships to the Egyptian coast to threaten Mubarak. There was merely an appeal to find a democratic solution.
In the case of Libya, it is necessary to be very careful with the information that reaches us. One day there is talk of 2,000 deaths, and the next day the count is revised to 300. It was also being said from the very start of the crisis that Gaddafi was bombing his own people, but the Russian army, which is observing the situation by satellite, has officially given lie to that information. If NATO is preparing to intervent militarily in Libya, we can be sure that the dominant information media are going to spread their usual war propaganda.
In fact the same thing happened in Romania with Ceausescu. On Christmas Eve, 1989, the Belgian prime minister, Wilfred Martiens, made a speech on television. He claimed that Ceaucescu’s security forces had just killed 12,000 people. It was untrue. The images of the famous Timosoara massacre also did the rounds all over the world. They were aimed at proving the mindless violence of the Romanian president. But it was proved later on that it was all staged. Bodies had been pulled out of morgues and placed in trenches in order to impress journalists. It was also said that the communists had poisoned the water, that Syrian and Palestinian mercenaries were present in Romania, or even that Ceaucescu had trained orphans as killing machines. It was all pure propaganda aimed at destabilising the regime.
In the end Ceaucescu and his wife were killed after a kangaroo court trial lasting 55 minutes. Of course, the Romanian president, like Gaddafi, was no choir boy. But what has happened since ? Romania has become a European semi-colony. Its cheap labour power is exploited. Numerous services have been privatised for the benefit of western companies and they are financially out of reach for a large part of the population. And now every year there is no shortage of Romanians who go to weep on Ceaucescu’s tomb. The dictatorship was a terrible thing, but after the country was destroyed economically, it’s even worse.Why did the US want to overthrow Gaddafi ? For the last ten years or so, the Colonel has been quite amenable to the West and privatised a large party of the Libyan economy, benefitting western companies in the process.
One must analyse all these events in the light of the new balance of forces in the world. The imperialist powers are in decline, while other forces are on the rise. Recently China offered to buy the Portuguese debt ! In Greece, the population is more and more hostile to this European Union that it perceives as a cover for German imperialism. Similar feelings are growing in the countries of the East. Furthermore, the US attacked Iraq in order to get control of its oil, but in the end only one US company is benefiting ; the rest of the oil is being exploited by Malaysian and Chinese companies. In short, imperialism is in crisis.
In addition, the Tunisian revolution really took the West by surprise. The fall of Mubarak even more so. Washington is attempting to regain its influence over these popular movements but its control is slipping away. In Tunisia, prime minister Mohamed Ghannouchi, a straightforward product of the Ben Ali dictatorship, was meant to control the transition, creating the illusion of change. But the people’s determination forced him to resign. In Egypt, the US was relying on the army to keep an acceptable system in place. But I have received information confirming that in very many military barracks around the country, young officers are organising themselves in revolutionary committees in support of the Egyptian people. They have even arrested certain officers associated with the Mubarak regime.
The region could well escape US control. Intervention in Libya would allow Washington to smash this revolutionary movement and stop it spreading to the rest of the Arab world and to Africa. Since last week, the young have been rising in Burkina Faso but the media are quiet about this. As they are about the demonstrations taking place in Iraq.
Another danger for the US is the possible emergence of anti-imperialist governments in Tunisia and Egypt. Should this happen, Gaddafi would no longer be isolated and could renege on the agreements concluded with the West. Libya, Egypt and Tunisia could unite to form an anti-imperialist bloc. With all the resources they have at their disposal, especially Gaddafi’s large foreign reserves, the thre of them could become a major regional power – probably more important than Turkey.How could the situation in Libya pan out ?
The western powers and the so-called opposition movement have rejected Chavez’s offer of mediation. This means that they are not interested in a peaceful solution to the conflict. But the effects of a NATO intervention would be disastrous. We have seen what that did to Kosovo or Afghanistan.
Moreover, military aggression could encourage Islamic groups to enter Libya who might be able to seize major arms caches there. Al Qaeda could infiltrate and turn Libya into a second Iraq. Besides, there are aready armed groups in Niger that nobody has ben able to control. Their influence could extend to Libya, Chad, Mali and Algeria. By preparing for military intervention, imperialism is in the process of opening the gates of Hell.
To conclude, the Libyan people deserve better than this opposition movement that is plunging the country into chaos. They need a real democratic movement to replace the Gaddafi regime and bring about social justice. In any case, the Libyans do not deserve military aggression. The retreating imperialist forces seem nevertheless to be preparing a counter-revolutionary offensive in the Arab World. Attacking Libya is their emergency solution. But they will be shooting themselves in the feet.http://www.michelcollon.info/Libya-popular-uprising-civilian.html
I don't understand why the numbers of casualties being in the thousands since the beginning of this is doubted didn't these people hear the eye witness accounts of civilians themselves,the pictures etc everything we got to see in this thread?
(offtopic) Hmm and yeah what he mentions,I forgot to report about this there has been unrest in Burkina Faso(west africa,Blaise compaore in power since 87,obvious murderer of previous president & buddy Thomas Sankara) for a few weeks now. But it has intensified this week with the army shooting in town the whole night(not at people though). The situation is kind of messy I heard the students are protesting against the beat up/murder by 5 soldiers of one student in the street. The protests then spread & became for general grievances, want a revolution. The army on the other hand opened fire/rampaged in town to protest against the condemnation to prison of the five soldiers(they think they are above the law wtf). But people believe someone's pulling the strings behind the army(some think its Gbagbo) and these are not the real reasons, suspect some coup sooner or later. Sorry for the lack of clarity dn't know much about it.
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Random guy: Oh hey, look.. people are being bombarded in Libya. See, here is some footage of rockets and wreckage in the cities.
Russian army: lol, idiots! that's just some media shit.
Random guy: How do you know?
Russian army: hehe.. we have satellite!!and like everybody, criticizing actions without giving any real solution.
lol.. Chavez..
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All we had to do in Yugoslavia was to support the split up.
And defend some bare handed peopl… Oh wait. That didn't happen. ( Depends on who this "we" is. If it's America ok, but if it's Europe ... )
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-Al Jazeera: The meeting between Yemen president & General Ali Mohsen al Ahmar fails to find a solution to crisis.
-Al Jazeera: Reuters: Eyewitnesses: Hundreds of Syrians march from Da'el town to Daraa in support of the protesters.
-Al Jazeera correspondent: Syrian security forces break up demonstrators demanding freedom in multiple districts of Damascus
-Al Jazeera's correspondent in Libya, said the situation in Ajdabiya is very difficult.
"Gaddafi's forces are still holding two positions around outside of Ajdabiya."
"They go around firing at people at night we're told. We got a chance to go into the city and got an idea of the difficult conditions the few citizens left there have to live with."
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-Reuters: Western warplanes bombed Gaddafi's armour in eastern Libya to try to break a battlefield stalemate and help rebels take Ajdabiyah.
-A resident in Ajdabiya: Gaddafi troops are patrolling Ajdabiya at night in unmarked cars searching for opposition fighters.
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If anyone's interested in the various reactions here's Michel Collon's (a famous belgium journalist) on the military intervention. It's an interesting read even though inspite of this I still support the intervention if it stops the attacks on civilians. (Have there been any reports of civilian casualties made by the coalition's attacks?)
I like Michel Collon alot, but his dislike of imperialism is really blurring his vision. I am not contesting the fact that there are ulterior motives for the coalition forces (oil, startegic positioning, etc..), but it's give and take in this kind of situation. I'll be more happy with a free democratic country with extensive economic and strategic partnership with the west, than to live another day under Gaddafi.
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In fact the same thing happened in Romania with Ceausescu. On Christmas Eve, 1989, the Belgian prime minister, Wilfred Martiens, made a speech on television. He claimed that Ceaucescu’s security forces had just killed 12,000 people. It was untrue. The images of the famous Timosoara massacre also did the rounds all over the world. They were aimed at proving the mindless violence of the Romanian president.
please inform this chode that we are no longer living in the year 1989, and everybody has Internet access these days
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lollll at everything in that article.
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please inform this chode that we are no longer living in the year 1989, and everybody has Internet access these days
And hi-res satellites! We also have hi-res satellites!
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-Libyan state TV: Gaddafi promotes all members of his armed forces.
-Reports of at least 23 killed today in Syria.
-The cities that witnessed demonstrations today:
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Wowsers.
Also everyone say hi to Chrissie.
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-Libyan state TV: Gaddafi promotes all members of his armed forces.
Which completely misses the point of a hierarchical rank structure.
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Chrissie can you see Syria from your house.
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I am not contesting the fact that there are ulterior motives for the coalition forces (oil, startegic positioning, etc..), but it's give and take in this kind of situation. I'll be more happy with a free democratic country
please inform this chode that we are no longer living in the year 1989, and everybody has Internet access these days
Agree aye.
Yikes at Syria I get my eyes off for a second and oO. so the 'official' deathtoll is 63 now.
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The Nato is giving close air support a rebel army that is specificity aiming at destroying the government. Our humanitarian mission is clearing the path on which they drive westwards, armed. I'd have no problem with that, if it weren't for that awful silence from Tripolis. I would like to think that a quarter of Libyas population is keeping still because they will go with whoever wins this conflict. I'm not too sure though. I haven't read about any rebel actions there for a month. And even then it was small scale. As so often in international politics we are late. If this UN resolution would have come two or three weeks earlier it would have been an encouragement for possible rebels in Tripolis and a bigger help for the ones in Benghazi. We could have found out the peoples alignment.
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The Nato is giving close air support a rebel army that is specificity aiming at destroying the government. Our humanitarian mission is clearing the path on which they drive westwards, armed. I'd have no problem with that, if it weren't for that awful silence from Tripolis.
READ THE THREAD,
I would like to think that a quarter of Libyas population is keeping still because they will go with whoever wins this conflict. I'm not too sure though. I haven't read about any rebel actions there for a month.
Gee willikers! Why ever could that be!
And even then it was small scale. As so often in international politics we are late.
Hey! You're right! There were only small scale protests in Tunis as well, it was those southern poorer cities that really got mad!
It's not like Tunis eventually did. Oh and it's not like Tunis was terrified of what would happened being as they were right in the lions den!
If this UN resolution would have come two or three weeks earlier it would have been an encouragement for possible rebels in Tripolis and a bigger help for the ones in Benghazi. We could have found out the peoples alignment.
You (and the US congress, which is not a compliment) are the only one confused by this.
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-Witnesses to AFP: A military site in Tripoli's eastern Tajura suburb was in flames early on Saturday morning after three major explosions rocked the district.
-Al Jazeera: Libyan revolutionaries capture entire town of Ajdabiya. Libyan rebels have advanced 40km from the eastern town of Ajdabiya towards Brega.
-Al Jazeera: AFP: Human rights organisation: Syrian authorities release more than 200 political prisoners.
It's funny how the tables turned on Gaddafi's forces. They're facing the same situation the rebels were facing just two weeks ago.
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@Cyan:
Chrissie can you see Syria from your house.
Well, I can see Samothraki but that might be because I am in Greece right now. =x
Haha~ I live around here anyway With my superwoman eyes turned on, I have a good view of Lebanon, Israel and Egypt. ;P) -
-Al Jazeera: Libyan revolutionaries capture entire town of Ajdabiya. Libyan rebels have advanced 40km from the eastern town of Ajdabiya towards Brega.
smokes cigar Well done boys.
-Al Jazeera: AFP: Human rights organisation: Syrian authorities release more than 200 political prisoners.
8tJ09XhaB4E
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-Activist: Security troops stormed a protest sit-in near the capital Damascus, arresting about 200 people in the midnight raid.
-A resident says that protesters burned the local Baath Party headquarters and a police station during a funeral in the city of Tafas.
-Reuters: Syrian security forces fire tear gas on serveral hundred protesters staging a sit-in in the main square of Daraa.
-An eyewitness of the protest in Latakia tells Al Jazeera that at least three people were shot dead by unidentified gunmen.
-Unconfirmed reports say president Bashar al-Assad will speak on state media later today.
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-Aljazeera correspondent says a senior Libyan army officer has been captured. (Bilgasim Al-Ganga, the number three in Gaddafi's army)
-Rebels tell AFP they have retaken the eastern town of Brega, and a journalist confirms their forces are in the town centre.
"Gaddafi's forces are on the retreat and should now be at Al-Bisher (30km, 20 miles) west of Brega," a rebel said.
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Okay, the developments in Libya make me realy happy.
Not so much in Syria.
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I just saw the most chilling shit on CNN on TV.
This woman is (was?) a hero.
I hope this emboldens the US resolve for our support of the rebels.http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/03/26/libya.beaten.woman/
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@JERK:
I just saw the most chilling shit on CNN on TV.
This woman is (was?) a hero.
I hope this emboldens the US resolve for our support of the rebels.http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/03/26/libya.beaten.woman/
Yeah, guys. Smash the reporters' equipment and manhandle them. Surely that will get you positively glowing coverage. Fucking brilliant.
Also, I'm sure there are loads of mental hospitals where the patients have rope burns on their wrists.
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This kind of stuff brings out some radical feminist shit in me. Fucking hell look at how they are shoving her in the car look at this in broad daylight what the fuck dammit.
and to think that very day other women probably went through the same abuse she got for being women pfff fuck this.
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That is disturbing. And she is a hero that she showed to the world what she has been through. I really hope she is not dead.. ):
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Note to Gadhafi: This one woman has more balls than your entire fucking armed forces.
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It's a terrifyingly candid look right down the barrel of a police state gun.
Bar Kum needs to show that to his fellow rebels, talk about revolution fuel.
And I can just picture average Americans just watching CNN who were still confused about their feelings being filled with rage.
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@JERK:
And I can just picture average Americans just watching CNN who were still confused about their feelings being filled with rage.
Apologies for any ignorance, but I'm not sure if every major news station and/or media outlet like Kron 4 or CBS 5 will pick up & run her story. Weren't most of the cameras filming the event broken/confiscated? I don't know if it'll get out to the public far enough…. :sad:
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@Mr.333:
Apologies for any ignorance, but I'm not sure if every major news station and/or media outlet like Kron 4 or CBS 5 will pick up & run her story. Weren't most of the cameras filming the event broken/confiscated? I don't know if it'll get out to the public far enough…. :sad:
hahaha, CNN is one of the biggest News stations in the US, they leave it on at airports and lobbies and shit. What are you worried about?
What I saw wasn't the online article it was right on the TV.
EDIT: Look! Even Fox (which is depressingly the widest viewed news station) is running it as one of their top headlines on the web site, you can see the poor woman right there. Which probably means they too ran a TV segment.
http://www.foxnews.com/Also a headline on MSNBC.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/Americans have seen this by the thousands already.
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That's article is absolutely infuriating.
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@JERK:
I just saw the most chilling shit on CNN on TV.
This woman is (was?) a hero.
I hope this emboldens the US resolve for our support of the rebels.http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/03/26/libya.beaten.woman/
Rapists…lower than feces. They'll get what's coming to them. I hope no more harm comes to that woman while she's in custody. She deserves a medal and the thanks of all the silent (voluntary or involuntary) victims of Gaddafi's army.
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Crap. I hate to say it, but she's probably dead by now if not worse. It takes a strong and courageous person to be able to do something like what she just did. I an only hope that she turns out alright at this point.
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keep it up rebels (freedom fighters)
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Hidden for Cuddles being kind of disturbing
[hide]I normally don't say this, but I honestly hope the people responsible for all this (the rape, the censorship, the attacking of reporters, even the kitchen staffer) will die soon.
Because if they're like this when under pressure, who knows how bad it will be if they gain power again.
If they're captured and tried and all that, fine.
But I just don't see a downside to putting these mutts down anymore.
EDIT:
While in the shower, I realized that total extermination of Ghadaffi's forces might be a horrendous idea, because Egypt and Tunisia and such probably had to deal with these same levels of atrocity, and violence would have only hindered them.
I support the Libyan's rights to freedom and to protect themselves, and I think it will be better done by following the example of their fellow revolutionaries across the Mid East and only focusing on freedom rather than revenge.
tl;dr: Priorities to liberation rather than revenge. They don't need to die for the former.
End babbling[/hide] -
Obama may actually winning this political gamble pretty well too. Apply help and pressure, but not the clambering overzealous "NO LET ME" Bush method, and we will see results among the people.
Less is more sometimes.
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Frankly after Bush, I think Less is the only sensible course of action regarding the middle east these days
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@JERK:
Obama may actually winning this political gamble pretty well too. Apply help and pressure, but not the clambering overzealous "NO LET ME" Bush method, and we will see results among the people.
Less is more sometimes.
Glad something is going well for Obama.
Frankly after Bush, I think Less is the only sensible course of action regarding the middle east these days
Very true. I hope our memory of the Middle East and our experience in current revolutions will convince us never to do something as stupid as the Middle East again.
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I'm just speaking on the fact that the rebels seem to be very happy with us right now.
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Aljazeera: Revolutionaries have pushed west of Brega to Uqayla.