Shichibukai strength
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Well, Oda has mentioned in a few of the SBS's and elsewhere that he does give the anime staff input on things and provide clarification. Heck, he was singing the series director, Konosuke Uda's praises in an SBS in Vol. 21. He's also designed some filler and movie characters, like Don Acino, Shuraiya Bascud, and General Gasparde.
Though there was that persistant rumor about Zoro and Luffy getting into a fight…
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To Thousand-Lion-chan:
I think Zkaiser's "Wow." was referring to your attempted establishing of the anime as canon, something that reeks of ubernoobness. Simply put, he will not watch the anime for the sake of any validation towards real canon discussion, because it is moot. The anime does not validate arguments, it is not canon. I assume you know this, but understand that even if it is "for this scene" it still does not apply, and you need not insist upon it even if you have feelings about it, because you will not be heard. It is as friendly a reminder/warning as it gets. Others probably won't forgive this error in judgement without calling you names or being condescending.
AND I WANT TO SEE A FIGHT WHERE KUMA GETS OWNED! I NEED TO KNOW IT'S POSSIBLE!
Up till now, his abilities and cyborg status put him miles above the rest of the characters showcased with the exception of Kizaru and Rayleigh, and he isn't fighting any of those two soon. I think his weakness lies in that even though he is a monster, he's reflexes aren't as top notch as other characters. I think that is why he is always on the initiative while in combat. What I mean is that the remaining strawhats were able to reach him with their attacks, they just couldn't harm him. He can be taken by surprise by someone like Zoro and be cut(even if it is just a surface wound) so I imagine someone like Rayleigh Shanks or Mihawk could make mincebolt pie out of him.
Ugh, this thread has gotten a bit cluster fucky again, so I'll just say, I'm with this line of thinking.
It's my big problem with Kuma. I can see how he'll lose in the future. Some strong fighter will have better reflexes then him, be more then capable of breaking his steel, and defeat him before the rest of his abilities become a problem. Maybe it'll happen in the war? A cyborg who can survive otherwise lethal injuries makes for a great jobber. And if it doesn't happen then, it'll happen later. And maybe Mihawk could do it? Super steel shouldn't be an obstacle when it's established that "breath of all things" can cut most materials. Or a new character, I don't care in this case.
That's why I'm glad there's so much mystery around the guy. Should he lose how I stated, he has his character to fall back on. And maybe he is secretly working for Dragon. Who knows.
And again I'll risk saying it. Kuma beat the SH crew, but the ones who could really fight him were no where near full strength. Zoro was out of action since Thriller Barque, and it should be natural to think that Luffy's gear 2 wasn't as strong after fighting both a PX 4 and Sentomaru. Lucci said as much in his fight, gear 2 gets weaker over time, so to say Kuma beat gear 2 is just as arbitrary as me saying Luffy could beat Kuma at full strength (Zik). Sanji, I'll say nothing about.
But my core point is that this seems like a classic Oda move where he sets up a fight for later. The enemy beats them, seems invincible, then when the crew finds more favorable conditions the SHs win. And again, Kuma's strengths seem to have a boring answer–better reflexes and the strength to damage him. Getting that power is a different matter, but with all the power we've seen it's definitely possible, and it's also possible for some of the weaker characters mentioned in this thread to become stronger. The fact that Zoro could fiight him, at all, after his ordeal with Odz in Thriller Barque suggests some weaknesses with Kuma.
That's why I don't buy into his power, at Thriller Barque he was used as a shallow attempt at making the shichibukai as a whole seem stronger when two of them had lost to Luffy. I'm actually more interested in seeing how Magellan can lose.
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wow…i really can't understand why people are resisting to acknowledge the anime as a prove, when everything is exactly the same with the only difference that in some parts the anime makes it clearer.
i would accept to keep those references out,though, but just because it's the manga section here and not because of it's credibility.
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Well, Oda has mentioned in a few of the SBS's and elsewhere that he does give the anime staff input on things and provide clarification. Heck, he was singing the series director, Konosuke Uda's praises in an SBS in Vol. 21. He's also designed some filler and movie characters, like Don Acino, Shuraiya Bascud, and General Gasparde.
Though there was that persistant rumor about Zoro and Luffy getting into a fight…
This sounds reasonable. It is a great anime for sure.
The problem I believe is that if you enter into a discussion an argument based on the anime, how do you know that that particular point was reviewed by the author? I sincerely doubt he has time to review every sequence, and I doubt that he would have an entire sequence changed over some small difference. Animes have very tight time and budget constraints, which hardly allow for whimsical changes. Still, this is all conjectural.
The easiest and less complicated way to argue is not to bring the anime up, simply because there are less variables. You are simply discussing on the pure unadulterated form of the author's art. Even if it is very faithful, the anime is at best a secondary source and will never be as valuable as the real thing. Is it a great anime and a great piece of art direction? Perhaps it is. But it is not, to my opinion, very good as a source of evidence.
Edit: I carried on but so did the thread. I won't discuss it anymore if no one else will. And I also Love Kuma's character, onemoment.
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No, I agree that the anime shouldn't be relied on for a manga discussion, but I do think some of the stuff that goes on in it should still be taken into consideration, like the aforementioned voodoo dolls. You definitely shouldn't base your entire argument around it, but you shouldn't completely ignore it either, I feel, unless it blatantly contradicts the manga, like Zoro's chain-cutting stunt in Warship Island.
It's supplementary.
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@Thousand:
I'm sure it's not above the anime company to give him a call and ask whether this is so and so.
Seems perfectly resonable that Oda could square out some question marks, but that would be about actual question marks tho. Cant imagine that they would bother him with teeny animation questions like how should we draw this. Thats what they get paid to take care of not him.
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No, I agree that the anime shouldn't be relied on for a manga discussion, but I do think some of the stuff that goes on in it should still be taken into consideration, like the aforementioned voodoo dolls. You definitely shouldn't base your entire argument around it, but you shouldn't completely ignore it either, I feel, unless it blatantly contradicts the manga, like Zoro's chain-cutting stunt in Warship Island.
It's supplementary.
This. .
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No, I agree that the anime shouldn't be relied on for a manga discussion, but I do think some of the stuff that goes on in it should still be taken into consideration, like the aforementioned voodoo dolls. You definitely shouldn't base your entire argument around it, but you shouldn't completely ignore it either, I feel, unless it blatantly contradicts the manga, like Zoro's chain-cutting stunt in Warship Island.
It's supplementary.
While I usually take such conciliatory stances between two extremes, I feel that it introduces more question marks than answers to use anime as evidence. I'd like to consider, for instance, that the voodoo dolls thing was in fact cleared by Oda. But how can we know? It would make for an excellent SBS question though, or perhaps a question on how hands on he really is with the Anime. But until then, even though I can keep them under consideration, I will keep them at arms length and not embrace them as facts.
I love One Piece anime as it's great to see all those static panels moving and hear the characters speak. I also love to watch the episodes because it gives things a dramatic rythm, a sense of weight and importance to the story through good directing. With the Manga I just read it very quickly. I'm usually done in 5 minutes. While it satisfies my curiosity, as quickly as I'm done I want more. The anime is great for that. But that's how I take my anime. I enjoy it thoroughly, even the added parts, but make a mental note not to consider them canon. There are some awesome parts though, like Kidd and Laws battle against the cyborg being shown, for instance. I loved that.
Also, I personally believe that Kuma will be thoroughly beaten by a Strawhat first. In the coming war, he may be shown struggling at most, but I don't believe he will be defeated. In fact, my own farfetched theory is that it will be Zoro who fights him when Kuma's mind is finally completely erased by the World Government, and Zoro fights him in a bid for Kuma to regain his will. After defeating him, perhaps Kuma would regain his sanity. This is what I would like, and would also make sense because Zoro would be compelled to help him in light of his current debt.
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But my core point is that this seems like a classic Oda move where he sets up a fight for later. The enemy beats them, seems invincible, then when the crew finds more favorable conditions the SHs win.
Man, you really got the point there. It's funny how the Strawhats always lose to guys who seem invincible. Logias and Kuma for example. There is always the issue of them not being touchable. Sir Crocodile, Enel, Ao Kiji, Kizaru, Smoker. All of them logias, and the only enemies where the Strawhats didn't have a little chance to beat them. But as soon as their perfect defense got taken away, the lost. Perfect example are Sir Crocodile and Enel. I really can't wait until Ao Kiji and Luffy meet again and Luffy punches Ao Kiji right in the face, because he's able to do the same thing as Rayleigh did with Kizaru (No, I'm not going to use this word).
But the issue with Kuma is a different one. Luffy was always able to fight the enemy after he found a way around their invincibility. After that, he always proved to be able to beat them in combat skill and physical condition. But let's say Luffy can overcome Kumas hand defense, like he did it with Crocodile and Enel, but there still remains the issue of Kuma just being better in general. I know this isn't confirmed, but It always seemed for me like Kuma did something like instant teleportation. And It is still a long road for Luffy to match up to that speed. Plus the fact that Kumas attack ignore his rubber body isn't helping. And we still have the issue of him being made out of metal. Luffy has proven that he can put a dent on a massive object made out of iron, but his attacks still lose heavy impact because of that.
My personal conclusion is, that Luffy would still lose to Kuma, even in perfect condition.
But yeah, I agree with the thing you said about Mihawk and other general super strong guys. If you can ignore the defense his DF provides, It all comes down to pure skill and strength. -
The Strawhats together in top form struggled that much against a Pacifista that it left them basically incapacitated. As much as it sucks; Kuma is out of their league right now.
Plus he's one of those characters that there won't be an actual one on one fight against a main character, kind of like Kuzan and maybe Borsalino.
No, I agree that the anime shouldn't be relied on for a manga discussion, but I do think some of the stuff that goes on in it should still be taken into consideration, like the aforementioned voodoo dolls. You definitely shouldn't base your entire argument around it, but you shouldn't completely ignore it either, I feel, unless it blatantly contradicts the manga, like Zoro's chain-cutting stunt in Warship Island.
It's supplementary.
Regardless of whatever it's being used for, the anime is not the original source so it cannot be used as a legitimate base in an argument concerning events that happen in the manga(said original source).
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Plus he's one of those characters that there won't be an actual one on one fight against a main character, kind of like Kuzan and maybe Borsalino.
I'm guessing that Kuzan is going to run afoul of Teach at some point so he will wind up fighting a main character, but an antagonist rather than a protagonist.
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Well I meant more along the lines of one of the Strawhat Pirates, they're the only ones I'd really consider main characters. But I do agree with you though that we'll see Kuzan come at odds with Teach sometime in the future.
I'll start calling Teach(maybe the Blackbeard Pirates as a whole too) a main character though once he takes down Newgate.
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The Strawhats together in top form struggled that much against a Pacifista that it left them basically incapacitated. As much as it sucks; Kuma is out of their league right now.
Plus he's one of those characters that there won't be an actual one on one fight against a main character, kind of like Kuzan and maybe Borsalino.
Eh? Wouldn't be satisfying then. The same goes for the Admirals. I'm sure Luffy or even the rest of the big three can go one on one against Kuma or even an Admiral one day. Just that day is gonna be veeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrryyyyyyyyyyy long in coming.
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Even if the 3 strongest of the SHs attack Kuma they won't probably be able to stop him. They must be able to move at speed light (assuming kuma can teleport everywhere and as much as he wants). To defeat him the time they take to attack him must be lower than the time he needs to teleport. And that's, well…
I will let oda surprise me with me. But maybe Kuma won't even be an opponent... -
Even if the 3 strongest of the SHs attack Kuma they won't probably be able to stop him. They must be able to move at speed light (assuming kuma can teleport everywhere and as much as he wants). To defeat him the time they take to attack him must be lower than the time he needs to teleport. And that's, well…
I will let oda surprise me with me. But maybe Kuma won't even be an opponent...Ya know, people keep saying Kuma moves at "the speed of light," but didn't he only really teleport around Nami? The least physically capable of the Strawhats? And who ever said he moved at lightspeed anyway?
Because, when he was fighting Zoro at Thriller Barque, he didn't seem really overwhelmed by his speed, more like he was just overpowered by all his crazy abilities (and again, by generally being tired after an Odz beating). At least, Kuma wasn't running circles around him. If Kuma moved at lightspeed, then how did Zoro dodge so many of his paw cannons before getting grazed by one of them? An exhausted Zoro shouldn't have been able to dodge one if that's the case. People keep saying this, but I don't see a good reason why gear 2 Luffy isn't about as fast. The same goes with similar fighters.
The Strawhats together in top form struggled that much against a Pacifista that it left them basically incapacitated. As much as it sucks; Kuma is out of their league right now.
Plus he's one of those characters that there won't be an actual one on one fight against a main character, kind of like Kuzan and maybe Borsalino.
Now, if Luffy was tired to the point he was "unable to move," like with Crocodile, Lucci, or more recently Moria I'd be more impressed. It seems to me that that the stamina they had left could have made a different if one of them had started a fight with the original Kuma in the first place. At least, for the stronger Strawhats it would have.
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Ya know, people keep saying Kuma moves at "the speed of light," but didn't he only really teleport around Nami? The least physically capable of the Strawhats? And who ever said he moved at lightspeed anyway?
Kuma said so himself.
@Stephen's:Kuma: I have a "Pad Cannon"… The air, deflected at the speed of light, forms a powerful shockwave!!!
There's no stopping from this point... -
If Kuma moved at lightspeed, then how did Zoro dodge so many of his paw cannons before getting grazed by one of them? An exhausted Zoro shouldn't have been able to dodge one if that's the case.
Because Zoros intention is really good and he is much faster than some of you think. For the exhausted, I think this is sometimes overrated. Some characters tend to get stronger or can keep their level even if they have bad injuries. As for instance Zoro could use his Asura against the Pacifista although he was in a really bad constitution. For sure, they are weaker if there are exhausted but this doesn’t mean that someone like Zoro can’t give himself a boost and ignore the pain.
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Ya know, people keep saying Kuma moves at "the speed of light," but didn't he only really teleport around Nami? The least physically capable of the Strawhats? And who ever said he moved at lightspeed anyway?
I never said he moved at light speed. Anyway the problem is he can teleport right? Or are you denying it? How did he came to thriller bark? Maybe Oda wanted to hide his ship? Until we see his ship or whatever he uses to travel i will say he can teleport. How can someone who moves so fast not create something like wind? I mean if you move you also move the air around you. But kuma just disappear and appear somewhere else.
And don't take my "they should move at light speed" so literally. I mean they have to be damn fast. They have to be faster than the time he needs to teleport from A to B.
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Ya know, people keep saying Kuma moves at "the speed of light," but didn't he only really teleport around Nami? The least physically capable of the Strawhats? And who ever said he moved at lightspeed anyway?
Kuma doesn't move at the speed of light, but he can deflect things at the speed of light, like moving the air so fast it punches holes in people. Maybe that's how he teleports.. he deflects himself to where he wants to go, lol.
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Ya know, people keep saying Kuma moves at "the speed of light," but didn't he only really teleport around Nami? The least physically capable of the Strawhats? And who ever said he moved at lightspeed anyway?
Kuma doesn't actually move at light speed but he can teleport himself at light speed by pushing against himself and he can repel objects at light speed. In terms of actual movements Zoro's probably faster than him.
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Also, I personally believe that Kuma will be thoroughly beaten by a Strawhat first. In the coming war, he may be shown struggling at most, but I don't believe he will be defeated. In fact, my own farfetched theory is that it will be Zoro who fights him when Kuma's mind is finally completely erased by the World Government, and Zoro fights him in a bid for Kuma to regain his will. After defeating him, perhaps Kuma would regain his sanity. This is what I would like, and would also make sense because Zoro would be compelled to help him in light of his current debt.
Funny thats one of my first theories as to why Kuma told luffy they wouldn't meet again and why Zoro would fight Kuma
I got called a Zoro fanboy because of it tho lol
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I never said he moved at light speed. Anyway the problem is he can teleport right? Or are you denying it? How did he came to thriller bark? Maybe Oda wanted to hide his ship? Until we see his ship or whatever he uses to travel i will say he can teleport. How can someone who moves so fast not create something like wind? I mean if you move you also move the air around you. But kuma just disappear and appear somewhere else.
And don't take my "they should move at light speed" so literally. I mean they have to be damn fast. They have to be faster than the time he needs to teleport from A to B.
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this…Uh, my point was there's no good reason that a faster fighter, like Zoro or Luffy, couldn't keep up with that speed, even if it's just barely. Of course Kuma teleports, and yes he says he reflects air at the speed of light for his paw cannon. But, he's only actually overwhelmed Nami (or in your example utter nobodies) with his speed.
To say that he moves at the speed of light by reflecting himself might not really be right, and even if that's true it doesn't mean all of his movements are at the speed of light. It just seems like soru all over again to me, which the SHs beat with good reflexes.
Plus, again a strained Zoro dodged a few dozens of those "speed of light" paw cannons before getting grazed by one…which doesn't really seem right does it? I think that speed is exaggerated a bit, otherwise these characters have been moving at light speed for longer then we think.
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Plus, again a strained Zoro dodged a few dozens of those "speed of light" paw cannons before getting grazed by one…which doesn't really seem right does it? I think that speed is exaggerated a bit, otherwise these characters have been moving at light speed for longer then we think.
If Kuma is not surprised by an attack (or attacked from behind) it looks like this:
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[/hide]In a fight i can really see him teleport away from the dangerous/fatal attacks only to pwn you in an instant.
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I still think this teleporting stuff is over-rated. It's great for long-distance movement but it's pretty useless for fighting close-distance and Kuma's paw attacks require him to be some close distance to aim. For fighting purposes, Kuma's teleportation is as good as Soru or Gear Second. Sure you could claim that Kuma could get from point A to point B quicker but if the distance isn't that long then there's practically no difference in the time to reach it.
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Uh, my point was there's no good reason that a faster fighter, like Zoro or Luffy, couldn't keep up with that speed, even if it's just barely. Of course Kuma teleports, and yes he says he reflects air at the speed of light for his paw cannon. But, he's only actually overwhelmed Nami (or in your example utter nobodies) with his speed.
To say that he moves at the speed of light by reflecting himself might not really be right, and even if that's true it doesn't mean all of his movements are at the speed of light. It just seems like soru all over again to me, which the SHs beat with good reflexes.
Plus, again a strained Zoro dodged a few dozens of those "speed of light" paw cannons before getting grazed by one…which doesn't really seem right does it? I think that speed is exaggerated a bit, otherwise these characters have been moving at light speed for longer then we think.
Off course they are exagerating. If he could really reflect at the speed of light then the Strawhats wouldn't be sent flying for 3 days and nights. They would be there in less than a millisecond..
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@Thousand:
I still think this teleporting stuff is over-rated. It's great for long-distance movement but it's pretty useless for fighting close-distance and Kuma's paw attacks require him to be some close distance to aim. For fighting purposes, Kuma's teleportation is as good as Soru or Gear Second. Sure you could claim that Kuma could get from point A to point B quicker but if the distance isn't that long then there's practically no difference in the time to reach it.
Agreed. The difference would be a milisecond at the most. But there is also the fact that when Kuma Teleports, he is already in attacking position, a position which he probably calculates and assumes before teleporting, so that when appears beside his target he can instantly attack. This is dangerous, since even if there is little difference in teleportorting and soru speed in close quarters, Kuma's opponents need to swing or punch after. The difference may be very close, so it may not hinder as much.
There is also the problem that it seems like, while soru speed is trackable with good reflexes, Kuma's teleportation isn't. When somebody Soru'd behind Zoro or Luffy, they saw where they went. Kuma was a hole 'nother scale. Zoro was completely surprised and barely had time to dodge.
Off course they are exagerating. If he could really reflect at the speed of light then the Strawhats wouldn't be sent flying for 3 days and nights. They would be there in less than a millisecond..
I don't believe they are exaggerating. He did say it himself. To this I say that a normal human cannot reach a certain speed because he is killed by the friction and heat generated by wind resistance. Kuma probably deflected them at a cruising speed that would not kill them. The reason I believe Kuma can deflect himself so quickly is because of his cyborg enhancements. Then again it might be because he is the ability user so he might have a way around that.
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@Thousand:
I still think this teleporting stuff is over-rated. It's great for long-distance movement but it's pretty useless for fighting close-distance and Kuma's paw attacks require him to be some close distance to aim. For fighting purposes, Kuma's teleportation is as good as Soru or Gear Second. Sure you could claim that Kuma could get from point A to point B quicker but if the distance isn't that long then there's practically no difference in the time to reach it.
Just like most of the villians' attacks/abilities are 'nerfed'. Its there for the manga's sake of not over haxing things. Well with a body like that , Kuma sure aint got that much to worry about. He could tele here and there making it hard for people to 'follow' him so he could have the element of surprise there and if he use it well it could end everything.
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@Thousand:
Eh? Wouldn't be satisfying then. The same goes for the Admirals. I'm sure Luffy or even the rest of the big three can go one on one against Kuma or even an Admiral one day. Just that day is gonna be veeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrryyyyyyyyyyy long in coming.
It's not about whether they'll be able to take them on eventually, that was never my point.
The Strawhats aren't going to end up fighting every single character that's in a position of power. It's just like how people were assuming a long time ago that they would end up going against every single member of the Shichibukai; to a lesser degree with the Admirals and the Yonkou as well. Or even with the simple introduction of the Supernovas(along with the dumbest); as soon as they were shown people were pairing up a Strawhat against one of them.
Sakazuki is the only one from the Admirals I see being an arc villain. With the Shichibukai(the original), Doflamingo's pretty much the only one left who'd believably be put against the Strawhats. Lastly with the Yonkou, it all depends on who exactly the uknown one is. If it turns out to be Lola's mother then Kaidou is the only one from them who I see going against Luffy and co. I guess it depends if the latter's promise involves actually fighting Shanks and the Red Hair Pirates.
Now, if Luffy was tired to the point he was "unable to move," like with Crocodile, Lucci, or more recently Moria I'd be more impressed. It seems to me that that the stamina they had left could have made a different if one of them had started a fight with the original Kuma in the first place. At least, for the stronger Strawhats it would have.
It wouldn't have made a difference. Luffy had to be carried off by Robin twice in order to avoid Monster Chopper's rampage. That last Gear: 2nd was solely out of anger due to Kuma's sending of his crewmembers with his pads. He had nothing left. Zoro I don't need to explain, and Sanji was one Diable Jambe away from breaking his leg.
And this was just how they ended up against a Pacifista; the real Kuma is far stronger than them.
Look I'm not saying I like it; hell I ranted on my dislike of how all of that went down during the chapters where Luffy was at Amazon Lily. Trust I'd be right there with you arguing about how Luffy would be able to take on Kuma and Zoro/Sanji would be pretty close. Unfortunately by the chapters concerning the fight against the Pacifista we were shown that it isn't the case and I was wrong in my assumption. It's simple powerscaling: if one of those left the top 3 in that condition then right now the real Kuma is out of their league, even moreso if it was one on one.
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It's not about whether they'll be able to take them on eventually, that was never my point.
The Strawhats aren't going to end up fighting every single character that's in a position of power. It's just like how people were assuming a long time ago that they would end up going against every single member of the Shichibukai; to a lesser degree with the Admirals and the Yonkou as well. Or even with the simple introduction of the Supernovas(along with the dumbest); as soon as they were shown people were pairing up a Strawhat against one of them.
Sakazuki is the only one from the Admirals I see being an arc villain. With the Shichibukai(the original), Doflamingo's pretty much the only one left who'd believably be put against the Strawhats. Lastly with the Yonkou, it all depends on who exactly the uknown one is. If it turns out to be Lola's mother then Kaidou is the only one from them who I see going against Luffy and co. I guess it depends if the latter's promise involves actually fighting Shanks and the Red Hair Pirates.
True but Luffy has a score to settle with Kuma, Ao Kiji and Kizaru (well Zoro more than Luffy with Kuma and Kizaru).
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Does he? What exactly did either of these three do to him that was that bad besides shooting Zoro in the chest? Franky has done worse to his friends and Luffy is hardly out to get him.
Aokiji just scared them and will obviously directly help them down the line. Kuma will most likely be taken out/disappear before he ever gets a chance to do anything(though I guess Zoro could have one final encounter), and I'll just call it Kizaru will be owned by somebody long before the SH get a chance at him.
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On Amazon Lily Luffy swore to beat Sentomaru, Kuma, and Kizaru. While he'll probably get another crack at him, I'm in the camp that believes that Kuma and maybe Kizaru are going to remain undefeated by him.
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Hopefully Sentomaru isn't one-shotted and turned to fodder like the Demon Guard when his time comes.
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Even if the 3 strongest of the SHs attack Kuma they won't probably be able to stop him. They must be able to move at speed light (assuming kuma can teleport everywhere and as much as he wants). To defeat him the time they take to attack him must be lower than the time he needs to teleport. And that's, well…
I will let oda surprise me with me. But maybe Kuma won't even be an opponent...it doesnt matter regardless because Kuma said he'll never see Strawhat again o_o
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How is thinking him being on par with a guy he beat in an all-out fight four hundred chapters ago in a SHONEN MANGA "overestimating it". Luffy's at least Crocodile level for sure.
Well, I'm not sure about him being at Crocodile's level now, I'm unsure about that so I won't argue.
My argument was that if he fought him as he was (without Gear Second, etc etc) and fought him with him using Barchan instead of underestimating and basically mocking him until the last battle (and even then, he only stopped the underestimation when Luffy got up at the end)So basically, you're ignoring what I said. My entire point was that those guys used those moves and they still didn't beat Luffy, so yes your point isn't just moot, it's stupid.
… No they didn't, that's my entire point in this argument.
I'm saying that if they did, he would win, but they didn't.
Crocodile skipped the move completely at the third round (which by coincidence, is the one in which he lost), he tried to fight using his hook in an arrogant way and just underestimated Luffy thinking the poison would be enough.Moria, on the other hand, didn't do a huge knife, using a punch instead, which doesn't make sense, but he didn't know because he was insane.
The repetition of one move doesn't guarantee a win, it's a stupid strategy that would get you killed in any fight, especially a shonen manga. It's equal to saying "if Lucci kept using shigan or rokugan he would have killed Luffy," since after all, either move nearly killed him last time. Plus both are about as deadly as those moves you mentioned from Croc and Moria. The reason he didn't do this is the same reason I said before, it would have been stupid to believe it would work. Plus, from an writing standpoint it would make the fight boring.
… Okay?
Crocodile used Bar chan 1 time in the first round and another time in the second round.
Moria used Shadow Box one time and never tried to change his shadow in something that would cut Luffy.
So that argument doesn't even make sense with what I'm saying.Your entire argument hinges on the belief that Luffy is going to get hit with those moves. Why wouldn't Luffy just get out of the way like he does with other attacks? Why would he be so incompetent to let himself get hit with a move he's seen once already? Do you not believe people learn from mistakes that almost get them killed? Also think about this, Why not just have Croc stab him with his hook, or cut his in half his sables move? That'd work just as well. Also, why couldn't Moria just stab Luffy with a giant knife and skip the shadow box altogether? Those moves would work for the same reason you're describing, that is, you think they would work.
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Crocodile has an amazing speed with his Bar chan.
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Crocodile was close of Luffy for at least 13 times in the last round, and he had plenty of chances to do so, yet he didn't, there was one single time where he predicted what Luffy would do and put his hand ahead so that Luffy wouldn't attack him, which worked, he was still smilling at that moment)
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A Barchan in that place would kill Luffy, period.
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Luffy wasn't able to run away from a Black Box EVEN IN GEAR SECOND.
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If he did the giant knife thing instead of the punch, he would have won, which would have happened if he wasn't insane, arrogant and underestimating Luffy.
So… yeah... I'm basing this on facts, and as much as you try to twist what I'm saying, saying I'm trying to make my favourites the best (I don't even care for Moria, and I guess that Crocodile is badass, but I'm not really a big fan of his), saying I'm using null arguments, saying whatever you want.
Oh yeah, and to spell it out, Luffy would avoid those moves by stepping out of the way of them, like he does with countless other attacks that are all completely deadly. It's so simple it's insane.
Luffy isn't able to escape from Barchan at close range, and he clearly wasn't able to avoid the Shadow Box even with Gear Second, as seen in the manga, and if Moria just did a big knife instead of an insane punch, he would have killed Luffy.
Why are you twisting my words so much to try to win the argument?Now post any other reasons you have in that shichibukai thread, since I don't want to encourage the ruination of another thread. Three posts of this is already too much.
Oh, I get it, so you run away now, hun? Boy, that will sure shut me up.
Now, to get to the conclusion:
I know that Oda can't do something like "Oh well, I'l be realistic and have the Shichibukai killing Luffy because he is stronger", and I know Oda shouldn't do something like "Oh well, I better train Luffy to be as strong as the Shichibukais, and only then fight them".
I don't blame Oda, I find that he was intelligent when handling the Shichibukai matches, making Luffy lose 2 rounds before actually defeating Crocodile with luck and underestimation, arrogancy and mocking personality from the opponent.
And making Moria losing due to Luffy using Moria's power up and then making Moria insane powering up like a madman and attacking like an insane idiot.I don't blame him, because he did it well.
I'm blaming the fanbase that actually believe that Luffy would be able to defeat Crocodile and Moria even if they didn't underestimate him, even if Luffy didn't have luck and even if he didn't have any help from his friends for whatever reasonThat was the worst post I've ever read–you added no new information. I'll just explain this one thing, no, I want to move this kind of discussion to another that thread since it ruins other threads. Come to think of it, I even said that much in my last post and you still didn't get it.
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That didn't show anything new?
You have no fucking arguments and so that's all you can say?
Yeah sure, excusing yourself saying you won't post anymore will surely prove that Crocodile would be defeated by Luffy.Fact is, as much as you argue, as much as you try to compete for whatever stubborness you have, Crocodile only needs a freaking Barchan to defeat him, and Moria only needs a giant knife.
HE FREAKING CAUGHT LUFFY IN THE SHADOW BOX, IF HE DID THE KNIFE THING INSTEAD OF THE PUNCH THING, HE WOULD HAVE WON.
Is it that hard for you to understand that? -
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FUUUCKK why is that post so big. Alright, two points for you.
1. You say Croc would beat Luffy with Barchan, yet admit Croc used it twice before in previous rounds. Since this move didn't kill Luffy two times before, why would it suddenly a guaranteed win now? Regardless of how deadly, fast or good it is, if it doesn't' work it doesn't work.
Also, saying it has "amazing speed" based on a panel is baseless. I could post any panel of almost anyone attacking and asy the same thing. Ryankaku has amazing speed (and unlike Barchan it's even described as fast) and Luffy still dodged a bunch of those.
2. Can Moria even make a giant knife with his ability? That's never explained, and seems unlikely to me when the brick bats barely make Luffy bleed. Besides that, did Shadow box hit Gear 2 Luffy because it was too fast, or because it was a move that caught Luffy by surprise?
Also, you're saying that Moria should make a big knife out of shadows. How is he supposed to do that while also trapping Luffy in shadow box. He seemed to use all his shadow to make that trap, so what's left to make a stabbing weapon?
Lastly, my stance is that while, yes, Moria and Croc underestimated Luffy and were very cocky, but to say that Luffy is out of their league even now is baseless. You seem to believe that just because Luffy's powers consist of seemingly nonlethal things like hand-to-hand combat skill that he's no match for them. You seem to be too caught up with these facts to actually consider that Moria and Croc's abilities, while deadly, can still be countered or avoided, and even then Luffy still has attacks that can do intense damage to these guys. Just because something can happen doesn't mean it will. There's a much better chance of Luffy punching Croc ten or twelve times then Croc hitting one Barchan, and unlike your assumption what I'm talking about has actually happened in the manga.
Alright, I'm done for the night.
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Point 1: Crocodile attacked Luffy's arm in the last rounds, and he had water at the time.
He could do it on his head or on his body and he wouldn't have chance.
And true, Barchan is as quick as Rankyaku, but its a short-range move, while Rankyaku is a long rage move, they go at the same speed, but Barchan is closer and quicker to do.Point 2: He can change his shadow in whatever form he want, this was explained by him.
So yes, he can do that.Point 3: First of all, I never said that Luffy is out of Crocodile's league now, I said that he is out of Moria's league now, which is true, no matter what spot you see it.
I'm too unsure about Crocodile VS Luffy in the present to talk about that, though.And I don't use Luffy's powers to base this, I use the comparation between them and Luffy.
And the abilties can indeed be countered and avoided, but Luffy can't avoid bar chan, nor can he avoid Black Box as showed in the manga.
And your argument always gets to this: "What I said that can happen happens in the manga, what you said that can happen doesn't happen"… Well.. DUH!
The main character is Luffy, not Crocodile or Moria, so in the writer's view, its obvious that Luffy would win.But inside the storyline itself, it was clear that Moria and Crocodile would defeat him if they didn't underestimate him.
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i think you should assume that luffy is weaker than you think he is. he beat rob lucci in an all-out fight, just barely. no holding back, no underestimation on lucci's part. on the other hand, he fought opponents like crocodile, moria, and enel, and won - because of underestimation, a random advantage, and a situational advantage, in that order.
the reason i think you should assume luffy is weaker than your normal thought of him.. is that this means there will be more development in the story, more funny moments, and overall, more ONE PIECE. wouldn't it suck if during this great war, luffy figured out how to use some great power and kicked the ass of kizaru, akainu, and aokiji with one hand while kicking whitebeard in the face and learning all about the void century with sengoku? boom. series over. no more. the more of this show there is, the better.
also, i think we won't see kuma again, BUT he will turn out to be an important figure and he will be explained. we'll learn about him late in the story, but not too late to where he'd be ooold news. i still don't think he's a straight ahead "bad guy".
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i think you should assume that luffy is weaker than you think he is. he beat rob lucci in an all-out fight, just barely. no holding back, no underestimation on lucci's part. on the other hand, he fought opponents like crocodile, moria, and enel, and won - because of underestimation, a random advantage, and a situational advantage, in that order.
the reason i think you should assume luffy is weaker than your normal thought of him.. is that this means there will be more development in the story, more funny moments, and overall, more ONE PIECE. wouldn't it suck if during this great war, luffy figured out how to use some great power and kicked the ass of kizaru, akainu, and aokiji with one hand while kicking whitebeard in the face and learning all about the void century with sengoku? boom. series over. no more. the more of this show there is, the better.
also, i think we won't see kuma again, BUT he will turn out to be an important figure and he will be explained. we'll learn about him late in the story, but not too late to where he'd be ooold news. i still don't think he's a straight ahead "bad guy".
But Luffy can be both as strong as we think he is and weaker then other opponents. I can see a lot of the guys at Marine ford right now beating both Croc and Moria at the same time. Those guys are strong, but in this world there are clearly stronger.
…well, that's a bit of an exaggeration, but there are at least guys clearly stronger then Croc and Moria separately. That's the thing, plot wise Moria and Croc only need to be strong enough so we can say that, even when we lose, "hey, the shichibukai are strong."
I mean, can you imagine Moria fighting on par with Kizaru? I really can't.
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i think you should assume that luffy is weaker than you think he is. he beat rob lucci in an all-out fight, just barely. no holding back, no underestimation on lucci's part. on the other hand, he fought opponents like crocodile, moria, and enel, and won - because of underestimation, a random advantage, and a situational advantage, in that order.
I don't think Crocodile was underestimating Luffy by the time the 3rd fight started. With gear second, Luffy is now stronger than Crocodile.
Croc was clearly trying properly against Luffy by the end, why would he not when he was getting hurt? -
I don't think Crocodile was underestimating Luffy by the time the 3rd fight started. With gear second, Luffy is now stronger than Crocodile.
Croc was clearly trying properly against Luffy by the end, why would he not when he was getting hurt?Yes, by the third fight, Crocodile was taking Luffy completely serious, and Luffy's new gear second would definitely surpass Crocodile's physical ability.
Moria wanted to much to outshine and that was his undoing. Think about it, a rookie just used his own powers to kick his ass. So he sucks up 10 times the number of shadows as Luffy to show how he's superior. This was too much even for Moria. If Moria had taken in myabe 300 to 500 shadows, he might have seriously won or lasted til dawn. Even when he got hit with the attacks, it took two Gigant Jet Shell, Luffy's supposed strongest move. However, it seems to only move in a straight line. If Moria was more mobile, he might've been able to dodge it. Btw, the knife i think everyones talking about is the giant pair of scissors.
No matter what, i hope to see some more action from Moria, Crocodile, and Doflamingo in the war
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I don't think Crocodile was underestimating Luffy by the time the 3rd fight started.
Because standing over your opponent after gutting and poisoning him only to babble on some speech of superiority is not underestimating.
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Crocodile is stronger than Luffy.
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Crocodile is stronger than Luffy.
Because he's a logia? Because physically Luffy is stronger than him, mentally Luffy is stronger than him, potentially Luffy is stronger than him…
All it takes is a bit of water.
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@$abZ:
Because he's a logia? Because physically Luffy is stronger than him, mentally Luffy is stronger than him, potentially Luffy is stronger than him…
All it takes is a bit of water.
Not just water, if Luffy could learn to wield haki he wouldnt need to bleed himself to death to fight him. Plus, if he moved fast enough in gear 2nd Crocodile wouldnt have the time to dry out his hand. He's shown he needs to grab something to dry it out. I believe that Crocodile is a very dangerous enemy and a powerful character in One Piece, but Luffy is indeed stronger than him at his current level.
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Yes, by the third fight, Crocodile was taking Luffy completely serious, and Luffy's new gear second would definitely surpass Crocodile's physical ability.
Moria wanted to much to outshine and that was his undoing. Think about it, a rookie just used his own powers to kick his ass. So he sucks up 10 times the number of shadows as Luffy to show how he's superior. This was too much even for Moria. If Moria had taken in myabe 300 to 500 shadows, he might have seriously won or lasted til dawn. Even when he got hit with the attacks, it took two Gigant Jet Shell, Luffy's supposed strongest move. However, it seems to only move in a straight line. If Moria was more mobile, he might've been able to dodge it. Btw, the knife i think everyones talking about is the giant pair of scissors.
No matter what, i hope to see some more action from Moria, Crocodile, and Doflamingo in the war
You know, I've gone over this was other people before, but are you sure you aren't assuming less shadows would make Moria more like Nightmare Luffy as opposed to what he became? Because, I think it'd make more sense if he just became a smaller version of Shadow Asguard Moria.
Think about it, Moria knows how his fight works better then the viewers. If he wanted to show off, overpower the Strawhats, and/or defeat them, then if he could do that with less shadows why wouldn't he? Luffy wouldn't know the difference if he was getting beat with 300 shadows or 1000 shadows.
Really, it doesn't make sense for less shadows to give more more of an advantage then the used 1000. Any advantage gained from Moria no longer having to hold in shadows would be offset by a decrease in strength. Think about it, with Jet Shell Luffy moved a Moria that was larger then Odz many feet. Logically, a smaller Moria would go farther and get hurt even worse.
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I agree that as soon as Luffy learns Haki, Crocodile is fucked when fighting against Luffy.
Im also not sure if Luffy is now able to defeat Crocodile easily using Gear Second, so that's a null point to me.
The only argument I have is that Luffy would lose in THAT MOMENT if Crocodile didn't underestimate him.
And I think everyone agrees with me by now except OneMoment, but he's just being stubborn by now.Now, onto the Moria argument:
Moria got mad at Luffy for using his abilities, so he decided to outshine him with 1000 shadows.
He was clearly insane when he got them, and we saw him being completely insane, going in all out punching frenzy.
However, as you said, he would be weaker, altough far more resistant and quick if he had less shadows.Except that his strenght doesn't work against Luffy, because he's of rubber…
So, the point being, if Moria took Luffy seriously, he would do Black Box, which again, busted Luffy even in Gear Second and then a giant knife made of shadows (And no, I'm not talking about scissors, Moria stated he could change his shadow in anything, he made bats that can bite someone, so he can make a giant knife with no problems).
Moria would dodge all Luffy attacks, bust him with Black Box, and bye bye, Luffy.Did you finally get it, onemoment?
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Moria with a Giant Shadow sword, that would be awesome!
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Point 1: Crocodile attacked Luffy's arm in the last rounds, and he had water at the time.
He could do it on his head or on his body and he wouldn't have chance.
And true, Barchan is as quick as Rankyaku, but its a short-range move, while Rankyaku is a long rage move, they go at the same speed, but Barchan is closer and quicker to do.This is either a dick move, and an extreme oversight. I never suggested Barchan and Ryankaku were similar speeds. Your claims that is has "amazing speed" much less being too fast to dodge are baseless. That panel was a shot of the attack in mid-execution, it's been done in this manga many times before and doesn't indicate superspeed. Claiming that Luffy can't dodge it is baseless, and should be baseless since even when it was first used Croc failed to kill Luffy with it.
Why you claim a move that hasn't worked in the past should have 100% accuracy now is nonsensicial. Croc less chance of hitting with this then Luffy does of punching him to the ground.
Point 2: He can change his shadow in whatever form he want, this was explained by him.
So yes, he can do that.And the abilties can indeed be countered and avoided, but Luffy can't avoid bar chan, nor can he avoid Black Box as showed in the manga.
You didn't answer a question I've given you before. Judging from the volume of bricks bats used before "shadow box," Moria used his entire shadow to make this move. From this, where does Moria get the material to make a giant knife?
And your argument always gets to this: "What I said that can happen happens in the manga, what you said that can happen doesn't happen"… Well.. DUH!
The main character is Luffy, not Crocodile or Moria, so in the writer's view, its obvious that Luffy would win.But inside the storyline itself, it was clear that Moria and Crocodile would defeat him if they didn't underestimate him.
Going outside the 4th wall won't help anything. The only reason Luffy had such a tough time against Moria and Croc was because they were main antagonists. It's obvious that they would put up a good fight, because from a storyline point of view they had too. And no, it's not a clear win because things like reaction time, reflexes, speed, and the ability to predict what move your opponent moves are all invisible statistics that the author makes when creating these fights.
Besides, I just referenced what I saw in the manga. If you're going to throw that out because "Luffy's the main character," then there's no point in arguing with you. If you're going to say "plot" made Luffy beat Croc/Moria, then I could say "plot" made Croc and Moria win up until that point. See, it makes everything here meaningless.
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@$abZ:
Because he's a logia? Because physically Luffy is stronger than him, mentally Luffy is stronger than him, potentially Luffy is stronger than him…
All it takes is a bit of water.
YES, because he is a logia. Logia powers themselves make someone very strong…