The Hobbit movies

Gekko135

It was a Jackson movie… so it was good.

I'd give it a B-

And mind you, some of that score is because i'm just a fan of these movies.

But the filler man... it's starting to show it's teeth.

The first movie did well with it. The filler expanded things and was well received. But many of the important scenes weren't compromised. Riddles in the Dark was about as perfect as it could be.

But Desolation really felt stretched... not just embellished... but stretched.

-Beorn got fucked over. Gandalf tricking him was turned into a chase sequence.
-I didn't mind Legolas or Tauriel. I like her being the voice of reason "aren't we a part of this world too?"
-Hell, even the ridiculous action scenes were fun. I think Orlando surfed on like 4 different things!
-Bombor in barrel armor was awesome!
-Establishing Bard as more of a character was welcome.
-Thranduil was great. Wonderful performance.

Buuuut... around the time they got to Laketown I was kinda starting to get impatient.

-I didn't mind the whole taurielxkili thing at first... but the healing scene was groan-worthy. Really really groan-worthy.
-They kept that subplot going and had it climax... during the most important part of the movie... seriously... switching from Smaug... to healing...
-It divided the group... I don't mind having a bit more character with the pack, a bit more roles for them to fill... but I really feel like all the dwarves should have been there, when they reached the door.
-And I really hope that Kili is on his feet soon... him and his brother need to be in fighting shape for the next film.

Annnnnd Smaug...

...was awesome.

But that forge sequence was painful and long. I know... the dwarves are better with more purpose than just being useless on the side of a mountain... I get it.

But it sorta hurt smaug's character by making him fumble around to attempt to catch them. And that awful CG, golden statue... yes... let's attack a fire drake... by trying to burn him..

I'd have been happy if they'd just like... dropped a bunch of rocks or a statue on him...

But i'm one of those grumpy-no-fun-book-reading-assholes that maybe would have just preferred it to have been the original encounter with Bilbo... you know, he steals a cup... smaug gets pissed... eats some ponies... goes back... pretends to sleep, has a nice conversation with Bilbo... Bilbo insults him... and boom... he's pissed.

Hell, they could have had the dwarves run in right after that and fight him for christs sake...

I wonder... will the Thrush get shafted in the next movie?

Robby

I assume Beorn will have a lot more in the extended cut, and was probably largely cut from this film because… he doesn't have anything to do in this one so spending screen time on him beyond introducing him... eats time. (I know I know, all the made up filler stuff... but it was for characters that remained active beyond the first ten minutes.)

And I say it again, the introducing of the dwarves 2 by 2 in order to trick the host is a cute bit and all... but the first movie did exactly that to Bilbo, at length for like the first half hour. It'd be really weird to repeat that bit again as the start up to the second film. (Maybe not so much a year apart, but once the movies are together on dvd....)

Foolio

@RobbyBevard:

And I say it again, the introducing of the dwarves 2 by 2 in order to trick the host is a cute bit and all… but the first movie did exactly that to Bilbo, at length for like the first half hour. It'd be really weird to repeat that bit again as the start up to the second film. (Maybe not so much a year apart, but once the movies are together on dvd....)

It might be semi-repetitive given the first movie (though the actual part where they physically arrive at Bilbo's place was not very long), but… it both sets the tone and frames Beorn as a character. Like, the whole point is supposed to be that he's basically a recluse/hermit who has almost no interaction with other people and perhaps almost no faith in most of them either, but in the end he's a curious, good guy who enjoys stories. By doing it little by little, Gandalf really cleverly handles this. And yes, it's sort of a light/humorous moment. In this movie they made him seem like a complete savage who tried to murder them just because.

Anyway, I'm stepping into this conversation without really having read the last pages of discussion. My two cents is they changed a bunch of stuff unnecessarily, and stretched it too long / too much filler, with the end result being mostly a product with bad pacing, incorrect tone, and odd choices for where to include added exposition and character development. By bad pacing I don't really just mean that it was too slow or boring (though it had those moments) but just a poor balance. Scenes that should have been short dragged on for ages (several action scenes are bad offenders), and conversely places where the story deserved a pause, a breather, a time to world build a bit and take in the beautiful visuals, were rushed beyond belief. I also got realllly sick of this constant retarded pressure of being hunted by Orcs, having to flee everywhere constantly.

I guess to name one example, I can't believe how rushed the approach and ascent of the Lonely Mountain was. Already laughable that it all happened in a single day and that they changed daylight to moonlight (and of course they knew exactly when Durin's Day was going to fall... <_<). But WOW did they botch the sense of grandeur and elation of reaching the mountain and the change of landscape and scale of it all. With five minutes there they could have done a LOT. But no, Legolas dueling Orcs in Laketown is a far better use of time.

Everything is about action. Everything has a sense of urgency. Everything is so much more tense and dangerous. It's just... no. That's not right.

And yes as someone was just wondering I'm sure the thrush will get shafted since apparently it's common knowledge that he is missing a scale.

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Those who watch the first half of Desolation of Smaug straight after An Unexpected Journey will get really sick of the Orc Chase. I remember it bothered me by the conclusion of the first film, and it was starting to bother me again by Laketown. The Fellowship were pursued by the Nazgul in FotR but it didn't feel so dragged out. Especially given the sheer amount of last minute rescues by wizards, elves, eagles, etc. I'd have appreciated some more scenes like Mirkwood, especially before the spiders.

Though they can't exactly do this much for the third film, unless Azog ends up chasing Bilbo all the way back to Bag End.

@andre:

Why don't you like him?

It's a personal thing based off a couple of things he's said and done. He's a pompous man who has written articles claiming that discrimination against the upper class is the only acceptable discrimination left. He is a big apologist over Assange's rape accusations, and he refused to call Chelsea Manning by her name. So big personal dislike there…reminds me of some of the rich boys from uni.

Monkey King

Benedict Cumberbatch has a stupid name that sounds like something obnoxiously whimsical Tim Burton would vomit up.

Cyclone_Baroness

Or a name worthy of an American Football player :ninja:.

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@Monkey:

Benedict Cumberbatch has a stupid name that sounds like something obnoxiously whimsical Tim Burton would vomit up.

I used to think Benedict Cumberbatch was that child from Salad Fingers until Sherlock started airing on UK TV.

But honestly? Great choice for Smaug. His smugness works in his favour in that regard.

andre

@Cyclone_Baroness:

Or a name worthy of an American Football player :ninja:.

What, lol? There's no one in the NFL with a name close to that.

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@Print:

It's a personal thing based off a couple of things he's said and done. He's a pompous man who has written articles claiming that discrimination against the upper class is the only acceptable discrimination left. He is a big apologist over Assange's rape accusations, and he refused to call Chelsea Manning by her name. So big personal dislike there…reminds me of some of the rich boys from uni.

I was actually just curious. I'm not a fan of him either, but just because I haven't enjoyed any of his work I've seen.

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For context here, I'm a child of The Silmarillion so I'm all about the world-building and lore when it comes to Middle Earth. I was never a big fan of the book version of The Hobbit to begin with because of that.

@andre:

I was actually just curious. I'm not a fan of him either, but just because I haven't enjoyed any of his work I've seen.

He seems to be one of those actors who plays variants on himself. His Sherlock work is perhaps the best I've seen, though I maintain I still prefer Elementary as a show.

Gekko135

I think the orcs utterly wore on me when the filler orc that's been chasing them tasked another filler orc to keep pursuit. Their pursuit was believable up to this point. It was a nice expansion of the warg scene in the first film, but it just felt weary in desolation. I was expecting them to have azog pull back for him to participate in the battle of the five armies… but I wasn't expecting a pack of them to hang around for target practice

Wooden_Giraffe

@andre:

What, lol? There's no one in the NFL with a name close to that.

I believe it's a reference to a Key & Peele skit.

Cyclone_Baroness

@andre:

What, lol? There's no one in the NFL with a name close to that.

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I was actually just curious. I'm not a fan of him either, but just because I haven't enjoyed any of his work I've seen.

@Wooden_Giraffe:

I believe it's a reference to a Key & Peele skit.

Wooden got my terrible reference lol.

Satsuki

Finally saw it! Really enjoyed it! Almost missed Colbert's cameo!

Like most of you I'm getting rather tired of the orc chase, although I guess it has it's purpose in giving us the action. And also in bringing the orc army to Erebor for the Battle of the Five Armies? I dunno.

I ended up loving the Mirkwood elves way more than I thought I would. Their realm/palace is, well, amazing. I like it better than Rivendell, but I'm a nut for trees. Thranduil was played wonderfully, as my Tolkeinite friend says, "He's a bit of an ass." I want his crown.

Smaug was . . . . . perfection. I give them credit actually for making him sound like a DRAGON and not just Benedict Cumberbatch. Apparently they did motion capture for part of him so I'm assuming his expressions were at least done by the actor as well. I was so excited for Smaug and I was so happy he did not disappoint.

As for the ending:

! I think I had the reaction everyone had.
! Smaug: I am Fire! I. AM. DEATH!
I get all excited
credits roll
Me: HEY!
! Yeah, didn't expect that. Damn Jackson. Oh well. At least the third movie will be nothing but awesomeness. The death of Smaug AND the Battle of the Five Armies? Gonna be sweet.

@Print:

He seems to be one of those actors who plays variants on himself. His Sherlock work is perhaps the best I've seen, though I maintain I still prefer Elementary as a show.

cracks knuckles Them's fight'n words.

Cyan D. Funk

Wait, was Thranduil asking Thorin to nab the Silmarils for him?

Satsuki

I kind of doubt it, since those jewels are . . . . . . . way too big in importance to be held by Thranduil and then be part of a tug-of-war between him and the dwarves.

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@Cyan:

Wait, was Thranduil asking Thorin to nab the Silmarils for him?

They don't have the right to The Silmarillion so absolutely not, though I admit that the resemblance struck me too. That would certainly have been a twist. Wonder who'd they have had to play Morgoth.

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@Satsuki:

cracks knuckles Them's fight'n words.

Are indeed but this be not the place for such a discussion.

Cyan D. Funk

@Print:

They don't have the right to The Silmarillion so absolutely not, though I admit that the resemblance struck me too. That would certainly have been a twist. Wonder who'd they have had to play Morgoth.

They seemed to be trying to strongly imply that that's what Thranduil wanted.

They did write around naming the Blue Wizards by having Gandalf just forget their names.

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"There are gems in the mountain that I too desire. White gems in the mountain, of pure starlight"

Does sound Silmarillish, but let's face it, the Silmarils would make the Arkenstone look like cheap glitter in comparison. Maybe it's just that in the books, Thrandy wants some of the treasure, and PJ decided on treasure that would sound suitably 'elven'.

If they actually do try screwing with the Silmarils, I will not be happy.

Satsuki

Maybe they'd write it so that Thrain had the Silmarils not knowing what they were?

Eh, I still doubt it. That is just . . . . something only the pure Tolkeinites would know. Jackson still has the general audience to cater to, so he has to keep from delving too deep into the lore or people start getting confused. Or they have to take extra time to explain everything, which gets boring.

Ubiq

It's impossible to know whether Tolkien intended the Arkenstone to be the Silmaril that was lost into the earth; the description of the Silmarils having an inner light does sound a lot like the Arkenstone.

As I recall from the book, Thranduil was mainly interested in Girion's necklace but those were emeralds.

Panda Bear

Wait.

There exist people in this world that actually managed to read the Simarimadimium?

Ubiq

It took me three attempts, but yes.

Satsuki

It's sitting on my bookshelf, waiting for me to read past the first chapter. Most of what I know about the silmarils and any of the ancient Middle Earth lore I learned from my Tolkeinite friend who speaks elvish.

Robby

I've sort of gleamed the gist of the Silmarillion over the years, but… never managed to read it. Barely got through the Trilogy, honestly. Tolkien had a hard to read style... especially in Silmarillion.

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Really love The Silmarillion. Not for the writing itself, but for the ideas it brings up, the scale of the mythology. It wasn't so much like reading a great story but reading a description of a greater story. It helped that I was reading it with a close friend who had a deep attachment to the world herself, so talking about Valinor or Gondolin brings back memories of discussion moreso than Tolkien's writing. I even read part of a tribute to her in Quenya at her funeral recently, and the main song played was Nightfall in Middle Earth, the title song from Blind Guardian's metal concept album based around The Silmarillion.

Though even in The Lord of the Rings, Tolkien wasn't the best writer, but just had very good source material he used in a far more transparent way than in his grander First Age writings. It's almost like the three main books about Middle Earth (if I may call them that) represent three different approaches rather than three different eras.

Satsuki

And in contrast, you could say C.S. Lewis was the better writer, but Middle Earth is more interesting than Narnia (IMHO).

Seriously though, in terms of pure story, I always felt that The Hobbit was the best out of Tolkein's books. Then again it's been way long since I read the LotR trilogy, and I re-read the Hobbit.

@Print:

Really love The Silmarillion. Not for the writing itself, but for the ideas it brings up, the scale of the mythology. It wasn't so much like reading a great story but reading a description of a greater story. It helped that I was reading it with a close friend who had a deep attachment to the world herself, so talking about Valinor or Gondolin brings back memories of discussion moreso than Tolkien's writing. I even read part of a tribute to her in Quenya at her funeral recently, and the main song played was Nightfall in Middle Earth, the title song from Blind Guardian's metal concept album based around The Silmarillion.

So you'd say then that you'd think of The Silmarillion as Tolkein's Ovid, or some such?

Cyan D. Funk

It's rereading Narnia when your older that you realize that Lewis was sort of an asshole.

Ubiq

I've always thought that Tolkien was a fantastic writer but was considerably weaker as a novelist. Part of that was because he wrote so much background material that he wanted to work it somewhere even if he had to force it in. On the other hand, when it was just something that he was throwing out there and having fun with, he was almost an entirely different author. Compare Farmer Giles of Ham, Roverrandom, and even The Hobbit to The Lord of the Rings for instance. The Lord of the Rings is his best known work (well, besides The Hobbit) but I'd say its probably his weakest finished work as well because he took it a lot more seriously and just doesn't seem to have as much fun writing it as he did those other books. It's just as well that he never finished that 1960s era Hobbit rewrite since it would have stripped the story of all the charming elements that make it work so well (though I am curious to see how it would have turned out).

Plus, while J.R.R. Tolkien had flaws as a novelist, he was still vastly superior to Christopher, which is really where the trouble with the Silmarillion begins. Christopher Tolkien just wasn't willing to rewrite his father's work enough to make a bunch of unrelated notes a book. As is, if you sit The Silmarillion down or even get distracted for a second, it's incredibly easy to lose your place and wind up rereading the same passage over and over again. The only way I've found to really read it is just to devote a huge chunk of time and barrel through it. There are sections in there that rival The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings when it comes to memorable imagery but they're buried under a bunch of stuff that Tolkien clearly was still refining when he died.

If Christopher had turned all that material over to somebody capable of refining it or had Tolkien actually lived long enough to finish it, the Silmarillion would probably be just as well thought of as The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings.

RobZilla

@Ubiq:

I've always thought that Tolkien was a fantastic writer but was considerably weaker as a novelist. Part of that was because he wrote so much background material that he wanted to work it somewhere even if he had to force it in. On the other hand, when it was just something that he was throwing out there and having fun with, he was almost an entirely different author. Compare Farmer Giles of Ham, Roverrandom, and even The Hobbit to The Lord of the Rings for instance. The Lord of the Rings is his best known work (well, besides The Hobbit) but I'd say its probably his weakest finished work as well because he took it a lot more seriously and just doesn't seem to have as much fun writing it as he did those other books. It's just as well that he never finished that 1960s era Hobbit rewrite since it would have stripped the story of all the charming elements that make it work so well (though I am curious to see how it would have turned out).

Plus, while J.R.R. Tolkien had flaws as a novelist, he was still vastly superior to Christopher, which is really where the trouble with the Silmarillion begins. Christopher Tolkien just wasn't willing to rewrite his father's work enough to make a bunch of unrelated notes a book. As is, if you sit The Silmarillion down or even get distracted for a second, it's incredibly easy to lose your place and wind up rereading the same passage over and over again. The only way I've found to really read it is just to devote a huge chunk of time and barrel through it. There are sections in there that rival The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings when it comes to memorable imagery but they're buried under a bunch of stuff that Tolkien clearly was still refining when he died.

If Christopher had turned all that material over to somebody capable of refining it or had Tolkien actually lived long enough to finish it, the Silmarillion would probably be just as well thought of as The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings.

The Silmarillion is a really fantastic read, but as you've indicated, it takes some pretty stern concentration to get through it.

Even putting it down for as little as 2 days completely robs you of your place I found. It doesn't help that pretty much all the Noldorin elves names being with f and sound fairly similarly because of family stylings. Coupled with their immortality, sheer numbers and the amount of time covered in the book really makes for a book you really do need to keep on top of.

However, like you said as well, some of the imagery really is breathtaking. Beren and Luthien's reclaiming of the silmaril & The fall of Gondolin are some of my favourite parts of any book I've read.

At points it really does come across as Christopher Tolkien having just published his father's first draft though, with few alterations. Had the time been taken to flesh out some of the sections more (so much time covered in so short a book, it does feel rushed) it could have been a masterpiece, rather than just an entertaining but short account of Arda's first age.

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That said, I'm not sure I could have read a full-length Children of Hurin without wanting to go and stare at a blank wall for days afterwards. That story outdoes Shakespeare in depressing XD

But yes, lots of little epic jewels (see what I did there?). Morgoth and Ungoliant, The Flight of the Noldor, Fingolfin's duel with Morgoth, and Beren & Luthien which is basically Aragon & Arwen but done better (Tolkien's grave refers to him as Beren and his wife as Luthien, incidentally). And the whole thing when taken together (which isn't possible from the text alone, at least not while pushing through it like a marathon in a snowstorm) is beautifully epic in a melancholic way, paradise lost.

But as I said, I'm a bit biased when it comes to the source material now :/

Satsuki

Found an extended scene from the first Hobbit movie featuring Thranduil and the "jewels".

Those don't look like the Silmarils, do they?

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@Satsuki:

Those don't look like the Silmarils, do they?

Nope. They're just pretty jewels. Silmarils are a level beyond that…brighter than the Arkenstone too though I suppose that part is debatable if you suspect the Arkenstone was a Silmaril (which I don't).

Also...why the heck would they cut that? It gives important backstory! It's not like they had exactly trimmed the rest of the film down to the bare bones x_x

Satsuki

If the Arkenstone was a Silmaril would it drive Thror crazy like everyone says it did?

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@Satsuki:

If the Arkenstone was a Silmaril would it drive Thror crazy like everyone says it did?

Potentially so. Melkor putting the Silmarils in his crown was part of his undoing, and the whole Silmaril thing didn't exactly go so great for Feanor and his family.

DarthAsthma

If I remember right there are also only 3 Silmaril.

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@DarthAsthma:

If I remember right there are also only 3 Silmaril.

One lost in the earth, one lost in the seas, one in the sky.

I'm not sure Erebor counts as earthy enough for it to be where the earth Silmaril fell though.

Whoa, it must be a confusing and dangerous job being a jeweller in Middle Earth.

Satsuki

How is it not earthy enough? It was found way deep in the mountain.

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@Satsuki:

How is it not earthy enough? It was found way deep in the mountain.

Because AFAIR the Silmaril was supposedly lost much deeper than that, well outside the reach of any of denizens of Middle Earth, including even the dwarves.

TheCrystalShip

@Cyan:

It's rereading Narnia when your older that you realize that Lewis was sort of an asshole.

I just took this literary character test and I keep getting Galadriel and the White Witch, LOL.

Ubiq

@Satsuki:

If the Arkenstone was a Silmaril would it drive Thror crazy like everyone says it did?

Hard to say really. Dwarves are really resistant to mental corruption to an extent; they remain themselves but become more so if that makes sense. Sauron was unable to create the dwarven equivalent of Nazgul but their rings amplified their greed and suspicious nature. If it was a Silmaril and did affect Thror's mind, then it was in a fashion that nobody would ever really notice.

At any rate, none of the other dwarves besides Thorin come across as all that obsessive about the Arkenstone and that seemed more because of what it meant as a symbol than the actual value of it. Thrain found it and just left it there when the dwarves left Erebor the first time.

RobZilla

@Ubiq:

Hard to say really. Dwarves are really resistant to mental corruption to an extent; they remain themselves but become more so if that makes sense. Sauron was unable to create the dwarven equivalent of Nazgul but their rings amplified their greed and suspicious nature. If it was a Silmaril and did affect Thror's mind, then it was in a fashion that nobody would ever really notice.

At any rate, none of the other dwarves besides Thorin come across as all that obsessive about the Arkenstone and that seemed more because of what it meant as a symbol than the actual value of it. Thrain found it and just left it there when the dwarves left Erebor the first time.

Dwarves usually are more resistant but in the case of Silmarils, look at what happened with the nauglamir and the dwarves that forged it. They were only exposed to it for a short while and sacked Doriath just to possess it. Prolonged exposure could certainly have similar effects to what happened to Thror in my opinion.

Although I don't think the arkenstone was a silmaril, myself. The Silmarillion was written in a way that guaranteed the end of the story of the Silmarils at it's conclusion and in poetic fashion ie by air, by sea and by the earth. The arkenstone was just a particularly glorious and valuable jewel.

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@Print:

That said, I'm not sure I could have read a full-length Children of Hurin without wanting to go and stare at a blank wall for days afterwards. That story outdoes Shakespeare in depressing XD

But yes, lots of little epic jewels (see what I did there?). Morgoth and Ungoliant, The Flight of the Noldor, Fingolfin's duel with Morgoth, and Beren & Luthien which is basically Aragon & Arwen but done better (Tolkien's grave refers to him as Beren and his wife as Luthien, incidentally). And the whole thing when taken together (which isn't possible from the text alone, at least not while pushing through it like a marathon in a snowstorm) is beautifully epic in a melancholic way, paradise lost.

But as I said, I'm a bit biased when it comes to the source material now :/

Really, the only major plot point in the book that I disliked was…

! …the way things ended so abruptly for Feanor.
! He starts all this mess and then he's pushing up the daises about 10 pages later.

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@RobZilla:

Dwarves usually are more resistant but in the case of Silmarils, look at what happened with the nauglamir and the dwarves that forged it. They were only exposed to it for a short while and sacked Doriath just to possess it. Prolonged exposure could certainly have similar effects to what happened to Thror in my opinion.

Although I don't think the arkenstone was a silmaril, myself. The Silmarillion was written in a way that guaranteed the end of the story of the Silmarils at it's conclusion and in poetic fashion ie by air, by sea and by the earth. The arkenstone was just a particularly glorious and valuable jewel.

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Really, the only major plot point in the book that I disliked was...

! …the way things ended so abruptly for Feanor.
! He starts all this mess and then he's pushing up the daises about 10 pages later.

It seems we have the same broad view on this. As for Feanor…

! He doesn't get off the hook the same way mortals would given his Noldor status. Though as for how aware he is of what his actions led to…that's up for debate. Maybe Fingolfin & co briefed him when they too showed up at the Halls of Mandos.

RobZilla

@Print:

It seems we have the same broad view on this. As for Feanor…

! He doesn't get off the hook the same way mortals would given his Noldor status. Though as for how aware he is of what his actions led to…that's up for debate. Maybe Fingolfin & co briefed him when they too showed up at the Halls of Mandos.

! Yeah I'm sure Feanor has been the butt of quite a few jokes at dinner parties in the halls of Mandos.
! Although he's still meant to be slated to have a big part in the final battle at the end of the world ie unmaking the silmarils.
! I do particularly love Sauron's role in the book though. Top notch shapeshifter and sorcerer, excellent stuff.

Ubiq

@RobZilla:

Dwarves usually are more resistant but in the case of Silmarils, look at what happened with the nauglamir and the dwarves that forged it. They were only exposed to it for a short while and sacked Doriath just to possess it. Prolonged exposure could certainly have similar effects to what happened to Thror in my opinion.

Dwarves tend to have a great deal of attachment to the things that they forged themselves though and Thingol insulting them when they wanted to keep it didn't help. Plus they lied about the entire situation to get that war started in the first place; note that Belegost, which is where they were from and would have known them better, refused to have anything to do with attacking Doriath.

Although I don't think the arkenstone was a silmaril, myself. The Silmarillion was written in a way that guaranteed the end of the story of the Silmarils at it's conclusion and in poetic fashion ie by air, by sea and by the earth. The arkenstone was just a particularly glorious and valuable jewel.

I can see both sides on this but since Tolkien never resolved the issue either way, it's best to just go with them being two different things.

RobZilla

@Ubiq:

Dwarves tend to have a great deal of attachment to the things that they forged themselves though and Thingol insulting them when they wanted to keep it didn't help. Plus they lied about the entire situation to get that war started in the first place; note that Belegost, which is where they were from and would have known them better, refused to have anything to do with attacking Doriath.

I can see both sides on this but since Tolkien never resolved the issue either way, it's best to just go with them being two different things.

That's true. However had the Nauglamir simply been a necklace they forged for Thingol and had not contained a Silmaril, I don't think they would have considered sacking Doriath to get it back. It's definitely a combination of the lure of the Silmaril AND their attachment to their own work like you mentioned.

Speaking of great works, it's always disappointed me that there was so little mention of the creation of the Palantir by Feanor in The Silmarilion. It's something that's generally overlooked since the Silmarils were so obviously his greatest work and caused so much trouble.

Leon

For those who still care, the title of the 3rd movie "There and back again" is now "The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies"

Purple Hermit

Laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaame, but I guess they wanted to hype up the battle/movie for the general audience.

baby-boo

I thought 'There and Back Again' was very romantic, but I guess 'Battle of the Five Armies' makes more sense story wise. I'm fine either way.

CosmicDebris

It does make more sense, honestly…Without the context of being a fan of the books, "There and Back Again" is an odd way to promote the movie. It all should have just been one movie anyway, so who cares how they're titled at this point. :P

Leon

Just curious, how did you'll find the Battle of the Pelennor Fields as shown ROTK, EXCLUDING the arrival of the green ghosts.