@Usopp:
You could say the same about Hitler or Stalin or Mao. You think those were good guys?
You know I used that exact same example when I argued this with him before, even if the WG had the good of the world in mind so did Hitler for Germany, doesn't change the fact that their hands keep getting covered by more blood.
You should know that common doesn't equate to being right, and secondly negation would depend on how evil or vile the act committed was, and the WG has done more than one bad thing anyway.
No but im just saying if you wanna play that argument then the entire european continent and america no matter what good it brought to the world was and should be seen as evil. And i dont see you going about making that argument are you?
And sure lets say its done 3000 bad things and 300 000 good things. If thats better, the point is the decent things they do far outweigh the Ohara situations in the world. That kind of thing is absolutly last resort.
@Usopp:
You could say the same about Hitler or Stalin or Mao. You think those were good guys?
How could you possibly go about comparing those scenarios to what we've seen, are you asking me if i think killing people in the millions is worth what ever advances they made is right? then of course not, but we have never seen the world goverment do anything on such a magnitude, if anything they've been working towards never seeing such mass death and chaos at the expense of indivduals. And yeah i guess Godwin's law really works:ninja:
The old the WG is evil and the pirates are sweethearts debate? Oh i got burned on this one back then. Better yet enjoy the show:
The old the WG is evil and the pirates are sweethearts debate? Oh i got burned on this one back then. Better yet enjoy the show:
That picture is seriously freaking the hell out of me…yet I can't stop looking.
No but im just saying if you wanna play that argument then the entire european continent and america no matter what good it brought to the world was and should be seen as evil. And i dont see you going about making that argument are you?
And sure lets say its done 3000 bad things and 300 000 good things. If thats better, the point is the decent things they do far outweigh the Ohara situations in the world. That kind of thing is absolutly last resort.
How could you possibly go about comparing those scenarios to what we've seen, are you asking me if i think killing people in the millions is worth what ever advances they made is right? then of course not, but we have never seen the world goverment do anything on such a magnitude, if anything they've been working towards never seeing such mass death and chaos at the expense of indivduals. And yeah i guess Godwin's law really works:ninja:
From certain religious standpoints the argument that people weren't meant to govern themselves is one that can easily be made, let alone try to govern the entire world as the WG does. Also from a native american stand point you can bet that many probably do/did consider America evil, but the difference is that America isn't killing those that dare try to teach that dirty history (of the native americans or slavery) in classes nor do Europeans hide the many issues of the Catholic church of the past (lol arguably current too) or the inquisitions or the crusades, and that's where your argument fails because America and Europe atleast give their people some semblance of choice, you can always leave if you don't like it, not so with the WG who tries to monopolize all government and enslave those who don't cooperate as well as hide it's dirty history. That's the difference that I keep trying to explain to you, the WG doesn't give it's people a choice, it immediately forces ignorance upon them instead of allowing them knowledge and giving them a choice, all WG citizens may as well be slaves. Americans and Europeans know their respective dirty histories and choose to live in the present, can't say that for the WG.
but the difference is that America isn't killing those that dare try to teach that dirty history (of the native americans or slavery) in classes nor do Europeans hide the many issues of the Catholic church of the past (lol arguably current too) or the inquisitions or the crusades,
There you go against assuming that its just a prestige reason they're hiding it, and not like Rayleigh suggested something that might actualy need to be hidden atleast for now. If it only was about them losing face, the cat would've been out of the bag years ago. Not to mention that we've whitewashed a whooole lot in our own history so we are not much better.
and that's where your argument fails because America and Europe atleast give their people some semblance of choice, you can always leave if you don't like it, not so with the WG who tries to monopolize all government and enslave those who don't cooperate as well as hide it's dirty history.
Well there are other countries outside the world goverment, so if you dont like it you could probably move anywhere you wanted to. We have yet to see any berlin walls keeping the people inside world govermen member countries.
And if you're refering to them attacking other countries and forcing them into unions, we'll that's pretty standard operating procedure for countries back then. France has done so, Preussia, Sweden, England, etc etc.
That's the difference that I keep trying to explain to you, the WG doesn't give itself people a choice, it immediately forces ignorance upon them instead of allowing them knowledge and giving them a choice, all WG citizens may as well be slaves. Americans and Europeans know their respective dirty histories and choose to live in the present, can't say that for the WG.
Oh please they arent anything close to slaves, especialy not since the WG doesnt have jurisdiction in each country thus even if lets say Alabasta had slaves Drum kingdom doesnt neccesarily have them.
And do you honestly dont think there are things our current goverments know that they arent telling you, things that wont be known to the public for 50-100 years. Does not knowing that make you as good as a slave?
There you go against assuming that its just a prestige reason they're hiding it, and not like Rayleigh suggested something that might actualy need to be hidden atleast for now.
Lol atleast for now? It's been 800 years for Christ sake and you're going against what we've seen of the WG and the fact that they continue to hide things from their citizens and refuse them the right to knowledge. In America we know the atrocities committed by american soldiers in Vietnam, as in raping vietnamese women and killing children, people even protested the war, wonder what would happen if one tried to protest the WG? Do you not understand the point of Luffy claiming that the PK (possibly the biggest outlaw to the WG) is considered the freest man in the world? Or why everyone who isn't involved with the WG is an enemy of the WG like a revolutionary ally? It's because the WG doesn't allow people true freedom or even the choice of it's government.
Not to mention that we've whitewashed a whooole lot in our own history so we are not much better.
I can go right now and read a book called Roots and read the gathered personal history of a slave and the family he created and read about the rape of his daughter, or how his foot was cut off for trying to escape. I can go right now and read about native americans being slaughtered or the death of the Mayan civilization and the trail of tears and unlike those in OP I don't have to worry about being slaughtered because of what I know or my town being wiped out because of what I know.
@wolfwood:
Well there are other countries outside the world goverment, so if you dont like it you could probably move anywhere you wanted to. We have yet to see any berlin walls keeping the people inside world govermen member countries.
Yeah sure you could, and instantly become an enemy of the WG by living in a territory not under their jurisdiction, their is no neutrality, you're either with them or against them.
And if you're refering to them attacking other countries and forcing them into unions, we'll that's pretty standard operating procedure for countries back then. France has done so, Preussia, Sweden, England, etc etc.
Yeah and it was considered barbarcy, atleast in real life those countries tried to put a positive spin on their barbaric actions as something like saving the heathens and many in power actually believed this, but the WG hides things knowing that what they are doing is unsavory and/or evil and says, "what a tragedy" but continue to cover things up and kill anyone who they find out that knows.
@wolfwood:
Oh please they arent anything close to slaves, especialy not since the WG doesnt have jurisdiction in each country thus even if lets say Alabasta had slaves Drum kingdom doesnt neccesarily have them.
They are slaves to their ignorance, don't you think that their would be others like the revolutionaries who if learned of the WG's history would want to disassociate themselves with it from a moral standpoint? I wouldn't be surprised if King Cobra would be one of the nations to choose to live separate from the WG if he had the knowledge of what happened. But since everyone is forced to be ignorant everyday these people would be living against their own personal moral values and wouldn't even know about it. And again you can't leave without the threat of the WG coming in one day and forcing you to assimilate back with them. Seriously if you've read Naruto lately it's like backing the idea of the Moon's eye plan and living in a genjutsu, you'll have world peace within ignorance but at the cost of true freedom.
@wolfwood:
And do you honestly dont think there are things our current goverments know that they arent telling you, does that make you as good as a slave?
Yeah but it's stuff like alien coverups, things that have no definitive proof, yet in OP there is an open law of not learning about the void century, an OPEN LAW, in real life these things are conspiracies not things in which the world's governments actually went ahead and said it's illegal to investigate alien sightings and the such, in real life they'll think you're a nut, not murder you in cold blood. At the most there are rumors, in OP there is definitive proof for such things but people can't access it. Seriously you're not grasping the nuance here.
Summary:
WG Pro's: -They maintain security and economic prosperity for the large majority of OP citizens.
-They stop terrorists and power mongers from obtaining weapons of mass destruction.
-They don't oppress the nations they serve and allow them total internal self rule.WG con's:
-They are rife with corruption at local levels.
-They are willing to accept the loss of civilian life for the sake of world stability.
-They recognize no human rights in their pursuit of those they consider threats.
I have some questions to ask…
Do they really maintain security and economic prosperity for the large majority of OP citizens? From the very beginning of One Piece, we have not seen one island that maintains good security. All of the islands except for Loguetown in East Blue, where it is supposed to be 'peaceful' had pirates/criminals/destroyer-of-peace in it. If Strawhats weren't there to clean the mess up, all those islands will not have peace at all. In GL, we constantly see Strawhats entering an island in the beginning/middle of corruption of a city/town/country due to WG's lack of attention, or because they choose to.
Also, allowing countries to total internal self rule seems surely a good thing, but as we have seen throughtout the manga, it isn't working well. Buggy destroying a town, Arlong ruling an island, Krieg trying to steal a restaurant, slavery, Crocodile's diversion to self-destruct the country, Wapol, etc. I cannot agree that the citizens that we have seen are labeled 'minority'.
Even in last few chapters we have seen the WG again at it worst. Not wanting to show the world that they going to kill ace early and mass killing they want to do to the pirates. Not wanting to show the world they are willing to kill there own men if they have to . They also don't want to show the have a army of super monster that are salves that will do anything they ask no matter what .
TLG , FFVIIR and Shenmue 3 2015 the E3 of dreams .
Yes. I agree. World government sure sucks actually.
Even in last few chapters we have seen the WG again at it worst. Not wanting to show the world that they going to kill ace early and mass killing they want to do to the pirates. Not wanting to show the world they are willing to kill there own men if they have to . They also don't want to show the have a army of super monster that are salves that will do anything they ask no matter what .
I don't think that's it. If that was the case, they would've cut the feed immediately after Ace's lineage was announced and commenced the battle. There's something specific that Sengoku does not want them to see, and I doubt it involves the Pacifistas or anything else. It's not like the Pacifistas are a secret anymore anyway; everyone and his mother saw the one blasting up pirates in Downtown Sabaody. There's gotta be something else…
I called it wrong, so long ago. I guess this needs to be changed.
Lol atleast for now? It's been 800 years for Christ sake and you're going against what we've seen of the WG and the fact that they continue to hide things from their citizens and refuse them the right to knowledge. In America we know the atrocities committed by american soldiers in Vietnam, as in raping vietnamese women and killing children, people even protested the war
They are denied knowledge of things that are apparently enough of a threat to make the world leaders and their main competition say that this shouldnt be let out to the public.
And you're comparing global chaos with far reaching consequences that could very well turn the world on its head to the US losing face over what some people did in the vietnam war? Its absolutly incomparable, i dont think the world goverment cares much or covers up regular military actions. Like for instance wars against other countries, that is just regular warfare countries do it all the time.
wonder what would happen if one tried to protest the WG? Do you not understand the point of Luffy claiming that the PK (possibly the biggest outlaw to the WG) is considered the freest man in the world? Or why everyone who isn't involved with the WG is an enemy of the WG like a revolutionary ally? It's because the WG doesn't allow people true freedom or even the choice of it's government.
The world goverment is a willing union, of 170 countries who choose that form of goverment. The leaders of the respective countries choose that for themselves, so how can there not be a choice of goverment? I guess you want it to be a modern day democracy with a people vote but in a world where unquestioned kings are the norm that is pretty damn liberal as it is.
I can go right now and read a book called Roots and read the gathered personal history of a slave and the family he created and read about the rape of his daughter, or how his foot was cut off for trying to escape. I can go right now and read about native americans being slaughtered or the death of the Mayan civilization and the trail of tears and unlike those in OP I don't have to worry about being slaughtered because of what I know or my town being wiped out because of what I know.
See its not NORMAL history were talking about, they dont give two craps if you read a book about some horrid battle with kreplakistan, its when you get near something that goes beyond normality, something thats actualy dangerous that they act, and you equate that to knowing about slavery in our time? It is better compared to should everyone be issued blue prints to nuclear weapons because we have a right to know.
Yeah sure you could, and instantly become an enemy of the WG by living in a territory not under their jurisdiction, their is no neutrality, you're either with them or against them.
If that country was currently at war with them then yeah probably, but what did you expect.
If you switch sides they probably arent going to like you much, just like how you would probably be court marshaled if you as an american soldier joined the taliban.
Yeah and it was considered barbarcy, atleast in real life those countries tried to put a positive spin on their barbaric actions as something like saving the heathens and many in power actually believed this, but the WG hides things knowing that what they are doing is unsavory and/or evil and says, "what a tragedy" but continue to cover things up and kill anyone who they find out that knows.
Why even moralize on it, a nation wants to expand and grow more powerful so they wage war on each other.
Its done even in our time. And i dont belive they ever called waging a war evil or unsavory, dont mix in the Ohara incident with a regular conflict.
They are slaves to their ignorance, don't you think that their would be others like the revolutionaries who if learned of the WG's history would want to disassociate themselves with it from a moral standpoint?
Possibly, but if it was something that simple why would Rayliehg say that the goverment may have choosen the best course of action?
But since everyone is forced to be ignorant everyday these people would be living against their own personal moral values and wouldn't even know about it. And again you can't leave without the threat of the WG coming in one day and forcing you to assimilate back with them. Seriously if you've read Naruto lately it's like backing the idea of the Moon's eye plan and living in a genjutsu, you'll have world peace within ignorance but at the cost of true freedom.
True freedom? sounds way to hippiesque for my taste. Is there even any country that's even close to having such a thing? I mean you give up a whole lot of your freedom in order to have any kind of goverment in the first place.
Yeah but it's stuff like alien coverups, things that have no definitive proof, yet in OP there is an open law of not learning about the void century, an OPEN LAW, in real life these things are conspiracies not things in which the world's governments actually went ahead and said it's illegal to investigate alien sightings and the such, in real life they'll think you're a nut, not murder you in cold blood. At the most there are rumors, in OP there is definitive proof for such things but people can't access it. Seriously you're not grasping the nuance here.
Once again you're comparing it to every day things, threat to the entire world stability does not match up to alien conspiracys.
Political leaders being executed, known reasearchers being killed for knowing certain things, people in the know probably gets killed all the time, and you and me probably dont know one iota of it. So i guess we should just put on the shackles because we aint nothing but slaves.
Saying that what seems to be a perfectly free people are nothing but slaves because the goverment doesnt allow them to read notes that we do know contain information how to make or even acquire deadly weapons is just so damn out there. I mean is it wrong that the american goverment doesnt let you buy rocket launchers?
Oh God not the whole "WG IZ EVUL!!!111!1!" nonsense again. 
Good luck wolfwood.
I think what every "WG is evil" arguer needs is some distance to what we saw so far. Forget the SH point of view. Forget what we saw so far and think globally what the WG/marines represents and what they stand for.
Then you will understand wolfwood.
I think what every "WG is evil" arguer needs is some distance to what we saw so far. Forget the SH point of view. Forget what we saw so far and think globally what the WG/marines represents and what they stand for.
Then you will understand wolfwood.
But how can you not consider what we saw so far?
ごれは秘密です
@Fire Fist:
I don't think that's it. If that was the case, they would've cut the feed immediately after Ace's lineage was announced and commenced the battle. There's something specific that Sengoku does not want them to see, and I doubt it involves the Pacifistas or anything else. It's not like the Pacifistas are a secret anymore anyway; everyone and his mother saw the one blasting up pirates in Downtown Sabaody. There's gotta be something else…
What a few pirates saw some , everyone else was running for there lives . The town was almost empty when they fight the PX . Even SH and law, kid fight the PX when there was no one around them.
Sengoku does not want to show the world the mass killing of the pirates and maybe some of his own men dying . He does want to show they might kill ace early which might show them as weak . I mean in chapter 561 he says it would be to much for the world to handle and they don't want them to lose faith in WG .
If you were tosee a army of monster kill everything in sight be it pirate or marines and the WG has control in them and that they so scared of WB they going to kill ace early i would lose faith in my gov.
But how can you not consider what we saw so far?
Of course it counts but my point was that you shouldn't limit yourself to only that.
Wow, that was a great explination of what the WG is. Or at least speculation.
Kudos.
It's kinda odd though…
The WG.... Sounds a little like The U.S. Government...
Just saying. :ninja:
I think Hannyabal pretty much proved why the government isn't evil. With only one page of dialogue too!
I think what every "WG is evil" arguer needs is some distance to what we saw so far. Forget the SH point of view. Forget what we saw so far and think globally what the WG/marines represents and what they stand for.
Then you will understand wolfwood.
I don't see anything from the SH point of view . I see things from my own . Globally we have seen them destroy a whole country . Allow a group of people to do what ever they want. Have island where they send people as slaves who don't join them . Allow a pirate who they employ to almost destroy a island that is part of there group . Do crimes and blame other people for it .
Hides information when even they feel like it .
Evil is to much a black and white term when talking about these things. Do i not agree with what the WG represents i would say yes. If i was in the OP world i would be part of dragon group.
But you have to remember as don said some people might see what you see as evil good while other might see good as evil . It's not something that is black and white.
I think Hannyabal pretty much proved why the government isn't evil. With only one page of dialogue too!
http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/00000002/000181702/14-15.jpg
No all that show is what he think he's right , the same way dragon thinks he is right . Evil is not the same in everyone eyes , even worst depend on what side you on and what your believes are .
Of course it counts but my point was that you shouldn't limit yourself to only that.
Limit exactly what? What we have seen in almost each and every island is a chaos many times because of WG or because of what they did not do. These incidents that we have seen are the very examples of why wolfwood's initial points about how they seemingly are in control are basically BS.
EDIT:
Hannyabal is a 'frog in a well' who does not get to see how WG is doing or not doing things to help normal civilians. For example, Saul quit being a marine after realizing that what he was doing is 'immoral' and not truly for the civilians.
ごれは秘密です
The WG didn't just made this world balance thing up.
Many of the ID prisoners would kill without flinching and will even enjoy it. In the OP world it is forbidden to be a pirate. Everyone who does this must know what awaits him once captured.
Not every marine knows what happened during the void century. In fact almost no one knows. So there might be a reason why the WG doesn't want people to research it. And considering it is only "something really bad we did to destroy the world" is dumb in this discussion. So the Saul argument is moot since he has no idea why the WG wipped out ohara.
You might not approve every method the WG uses but hey welcome to reality.
They are denied knowledge of things that are apparently enough of a threat to make the world leaders and their main competition say that this shouldnt be let out to the public.
You still don't get it, if it were something like the WG destroying the past civilization and killing millions because they were creating weapons that they couldn't control that could destroy the entire planet then they should know that the majority of the world's citizens would sympathise and those that don't make their choice and live somewhere else, that's called doing the right thing in giving your citizens a choice that should be theirs by right, it's why it's called a social contract, you know the terms of what you're getting into and are giving the choice to join or live on your own somewhere else. There is no argument to defend the WG for forcing ignorance upon it's citizens.
And you're comparing global chaos with far reaching consequences that could very well turn the world on its head to the US losing face over what some people did in the vietnam war? Its absolutly incomparable, i dont think the world goverment cares much or covers up regular military actions. Like for instance wars against other countries, that is just regular warfare countries do it all the time.
No I'm comparing a readily known example which caused controversy in the US in the first real war to be broadcast on primetime news and to show the true horrors of war. And you can bet asses would be fried if nowadays stories of soldiers raping Iraqis or Afghanis got out, I mean look at the Abu Ghraib scandal. But if that still isn't a good enough example for you, take Alexander the Great, everyone knows that he and his armies conquered many countries arguably injustly, no one in these areas in which Alexander influenced is being forced into ignorance, people know of Alexander as a conquerer but still choose to hallow him in history as a great man. The Romans conquered the Greeks and assimilated their culture into their own, but people knew of the history and chose to honor it even though usurpation happened in order for the Roman empire to maintain power, but the point is that people chose it and were allowed to know about it. Besides I can flip your argument on it's head, because I doubt that the past civilization that the WG destroyed was all evil too, so did they not deserve the right to live and make their own choices?
@wolfwood:
The world goverment is a willing union, of 170 countries who choose that form of goverment. The leaders of the respective countries choose that for themselves, so how can there not be a choice of goverment? I guess you want it to be a modern day democracy with a people vote but in a world where unquestioned kings are the norm that is pretty damn liberal as it is.
Yeah a willing union based on a lie that these 170 countries don't know about, you honestly think Cobra and other kings know the void history?
They are just like the average citizen, ignorant to what they are a part of. Your argument has no legs to stand on.
@wolfwood:
See its not NORMAL history were talking about, they dont give two craps if you read a book about some horrid battle with kreplakistan, its when you get near something that goes beyond normality, something thats actualy dangerous that they act, and you equate that to knowing about slavery in our time? Its better compared to should everyone be issued blue prints to nuclear weapons because we have a right to know.
It's not the point of knowing about slavery, it's the point that the atrocities associated with slavery in the US were sanctioned by the govt for so long. And your example of giving everyone blue prints to nuclear weapons is bad, that is definitely not the same as educating your people about the history and foundation of your organization and of how you beat a so called potential world threat. What the WG is doing is essentially fearing public outcry, it'd be like if the US covered up the dropping of the A bomb on Japan because of fear of the average citizens hearing of the horrors of an A bomb and the effects it had on it's victims, but we all know and Americans acknowledged it as a tragedy but also as a necessary way to end the war (not everyone did but w/e) again people were given the choice, no one who teaches world war II is forced into silence about the A bomb.
@wolfwood:
If that country was currently at war with them then yeah probably, but what did you expect. If you switch sides they probably arent going to like you much, probably like you would be court marshaled if you as an american soldier joined the taliban.
No in real life if I don't want to live in the US because of some conflict it's in then I can move to another country not involved in the conflict or even move to another country that remains neutral when it comes to global conflicts such as Sweden, but in the OPverse there are no neutral countries, it's either a part of the WG or an enemy soon to be conquered because the WG has monopolized all government or atleast is attempting to. Secondly in real life countries aren't hiding wars that they had in the past, at most they try to glorify them through propaganda, but atleast they offer some form of the information, not the WG.
Why even moralize on it, a nation wants to expand and grow more powerful so they wage war on each other. Its done even in our time. And i dont belive they ever called waging a war evil or unsavory, dont mix in the Ohara incident with a regular conflict.
Why even hide it? If you were just expanding like the Roman empire than let your people know and have the balls to be confident that they'll stand by you like it is in reality instead of hiding things due to a guilty conscience.
Possibly, but if it was something that simple why would Rayliehg say that the goverment may have choosen the best course of action?
Maybe because Rayleigh is someone who's down for any means necessary, but not everyone is and by taking the choice away from them you take away the legitimacy of your own actions. In the end if Rayleigh was such a fan of the WG then he should/would've quit piracy right after finding out the history, but I doubt he did.
True freedom? sounds way to hippiesque for my taste. Is there even any country that's even close to having such a thing? I mean you give up a whole lot of your freedom in order to have any kind of goverment in the first place.
Of course no country has true freedom in the sense of do anything but if you lived in a genjutsu, true peace dreamworld that Madara claimed to be trying to put into play then you would have it. What we live in is true gray, yet you're arguing that the WG is gray when it's clear that what they do takes things to far and crosses the line, which is why the true and strictist believers of the WG's precepts such as Absolute Justice are nuts like Akainu, that's certainly not a gray area. We live in a social contract in which we have the alternative to leave from one particular government to another without the threat of the former government waging war on our new home.
Once again you're comparing it to every day things, threat to the entire world stability does not match up to alien conspiracys.
If we found out tomorrow that the world's governments were hiding the fact that aliens exist and have been visiting us and that the governments were killing people in order to maintain secrecy, there would be all sorts of hell to pay. There would be those who fear the unknown that alien visitors represent as well those pissed at the govts for covering it up (especially through murder or threat of murder), hell even a mixture of the two. From that point on the entire world view of things would change, but the bottomline would still be that the govt would've fucked up when it decided to make it a secret, because I don't think anyone would be grateful for them doing so once they found out.
Political leaders being executed, known reasearchers being killed for knowing certain things, people get killed all the time, and you and me probably dont know one iota of it. So i guess we should just put on the shackles because we aint nothing but slaves.
Yeah but see none of these events are being outrightly spoken by any government to be illegal to investigate, so these things are being well hidden but since they can't be proved other than saying, "You know it happens" it can't be used in an argument, because the govt. doesn't legitimize our suspicions by saying, "Don't you read that or we kill you."
Saying that what seems to be a perfectly free people are nothing but slaves because the goverment doesnt allow them to read notes that we do know contain information how to make or even acquire deadly weapons is just so damn out there. I mean is it wrong that the american goverment doesnt let you buy rocket launchers?
Wow. And why can't the WG just tell people the part of the history that just has to do with what they did, why couldn't they cooperate with the Oharans and have a museum for the Poneglyphs and have the Oharans (who also said they didn't want to revive weapons just wanted to know the history) tell the people the meanings of the parts that actually have to do with the history and not the top secret deathbomb shit? It's because what they did is something that threatens their world standing and they don't have the balls to trust in themselves to truly believe that what they did is right, so they fear the opinions of the people and continue to do so.
I don't see why you even try to argue with people who think genociding entire islands for the sake of keeping history secret, or because a criminal was sighted on it, is 'good', never mind the fact that there's a ruling class of people who can do whatever they feel like, including raping, killing, and enslaving civilians, supported by this government.
Those assholes have never even heard of human rights and we still get people defending them on the internet on how good a job they're going on keeping people safe from pirates (yeah, right).
One Piece chapter 6xx, somewhere in the New World:
Blackbeard: Shanks never told you what happened to your father.
Usopp: He told me enough! He told me you killed him.
Blackbeard: No. I am your father.
Usopp: noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!
@Usopp:
I don't see why you even try to argue with people who think genociding entire islands for the sake of keeping history secret, or because a criminal was sighted on it, is 'good', never mind the fact that there's a ruling class of people who can do whatever they feel like, including raping, killing, and enslaving civilians, supported by this government.
If it can help saving million lifes?
Those assholes have never even heard of human rights and we still get people defending them on the internet on how good a job they're going on keeping people safe from pirates (yeah, right).
We're not in 2009 irl. You seem to have forgotten that people like law or pirates in general steal, destroy islands, kill people.
@Usopp:
I don't see why you even try to argue with people who think genociding entire islands for the sake of keeping history secret, or because a criminal was sighted on it, is 'good', never mind the fact that there's a ruling class of people who can do whatever they feel like, including raping, killing, and enslaving civilians, supported by this government.
Those assholes have never even heard of human rights and we still get people defending them on the internet on how good a job they're going on keeping people safe from pirates (yeah, right).
True but I think the problem is that Wolfwood and others believe that Oda is trying to make a point of how things are gray in the real world by making the WG seem like an exaggerated version of govts in reality. However I look at it like Oda is trying to show what happens when one govt. gets too much power, and the gorousei would be like if the UN created a singular govt with power over everyone in the world.
If it can help saving million lifes?
We're not in 2009 irl. You seem to have forgotten that people like law or pirates in general steal, destroy islands, kill people.
If you can rationalize their actions as saving millions of lives for the greater good then so could the OPverse's citizens if given the chance by being informed, seriously it's not like some magical phrase that if the public learns of would blow up the planet. The WG fears destablization and the fall of their own govt. when in truth the citizens of OP have every right to create a new govt. from scratch if they believe that the current one did things against their own personal ideals.
There is no argument to defend the WG for forcing ignorance upon it's citizens.
Sure there is, as far as we've heard from both Rayleigh and the elder stars the reason its kept secret is because they couldnt handle it. Which sounds perfectly plausible.
No I'm comparing a readily known example which caused controversy in the US in the first real war to be broadcast on primetime news and to show the true horrors of war. And you can bet asses would be fried if nowadays stories of soldiers raping Iraqis or Afghanis got out, I mean look at the Abu Ghraib scandal.
Did i miss the part where any of those things threatened the global stability? Because public outrage even on a global scale amounts to next to nothing.
But if that still isn't a good enough example for you, take Alexander the Great, everyone knows that he and his armies conquered many countries arguably injustly, no one in these areas in which Alexander influenced is being forced into ignorance, people know of Alexander as a conquerer but still choose to hallow him in history as a great man. The Romans conquered the Greeks and assimilated their culture into their own, but people knew of the history and chose to honor it even though usurpation happened in order for the Roman empire to maintain power, but the point is that people chose it and were allowed to know about it.
What does that have to do with a goverment holding secrets from their populace? Im sure the world goverment heralds their military victories just as much as the next guy. This was never about wars of conquest, this was about them keeping the void century under wraps for undisclose but good reasons. Atleast that's whats been hinted at.
Besides I can flip your argument on it's head, because I doubt that the past civilization that the WG destroyed was all evil too, so did they not deserve the right to live and make their own choices?
Since my argument equates to they are no more evil than the rest so sure be my guest, id be the first guy to admit that their enemies probably were no more pure evil or good than the WG.
Yeah a willing union based on a lie that these 170 countries don't know about, you honestly think Cobra and other kings know the void history?
They are just like the average citizen, ignorant to what they are a part of. Your argument has no legs to stand on.
So because they dont know one secret they have suddenly lost their free will? I dont get that line of reasoning.
It's not the point of knowing about slavery, it's the point that the atrocities associated with slavery in the US were sanctioned by the govt for so long. And your example of giving everyone blue prints to nuclear weapons is bad, that is definitely not the same as educating your people about the history and foundation of your organization and of how you beat a so called potential world threat.
They know the history of the world goverment, pretty much all except the void century is common knowledge, Everyone know's how 170 countries joined forces to pool toward a common agenda and a world spanning police force/army and all that jazz.
What the WG is doing is essentially fear public outcry, it'd be like if the US covered up the dropping of the A bomb on Japan because of fear of the average citizens hearing of the horrors of an A bomb and the effects it had on it's victims, but we all know and Americans acknowledged it as a tragedy but also as a necessary way to end the war (not everyone did but w/e) again people were given the choice, no one who teaches world war II is forced into silence about the A bomb.
No they arent covering up the fact that they bombed Ohara, in fact it seems to be commong knowledge that Ohara was wiped out. What they didnt know was what they were researching, and seeing as how that information was deemed dangerous i dont see why it shouldnt be keept from the publics eye.
No in real life if I don't want to live in the US because of some conflict it's in then I can move to another country not involved in the conflict or even move to another country that remains neutral when it comes to global conflicts such as Sweden, but in the OPverse there are no neutral countries, it's either a part of the WG or an enemy soon to be conquered because the WG has monopolized all government or atleast is attempting to.
Well if the entire world is waging war on each other as you say, then yeah you couldnt move to a neutral country. But you could move were ever the hell you please, like i said they dont have walls keeping you in and you're free to make your choice, and if you wanna throw in your lot with the opposition fine just dont hope to keep friendly ties with your old country.
Secondly in real life countries aren't hiding wars that they had in the past, at most they try to glorify them through propaganda, but atleast they offer some form of the information, not the WG.
But they do, the fate of the Oharans wasnt an obscure fact it was something people talked about. And the information given can pretty much be summed up as propaganda, which would be the normal thing to do. I mean who the hell gives their own campaigns a negative spin.
Why even hide it? If you were just expanding like the Roman empire than let your people know and have the balls to be confident that they'll stand by you like it is in reality instead of hiding things due to a guilty conscience.
Im just going to say if only it was that simple. But i'll just quote Rayleigh's maybe we were to naive speech once again.
Maybe because Rayleigh is someone who's down for any means necessary, but not everyone is and by taking the choice away from them you take away the legitimacy of your own actions. In the end if Rayleigh was such a fan of the WG then he should/would've quit piracy right after finding out the history, but I doubt he did.
Why does he have to side with the, just because they may have made a more rational judgement call than he did at the time.
What we live in is true gray, yet you're arguing that the WG is gray when it's clear that what they do takes things to far and crosses the line, which is why the true and strictist believers of the WG's precepts such as Absolute Justice are nuts like Akainu, that's certainly not a gray area.
The gray scale comes from that the WG moves across the spectrum, from white to black and cant be pinpointed as only doing bad as some seem to want to have it. You have your Akainu's and you have your Garp's.
We live in a social contract in which we have the alternative to leave from one particular government to another without the threat of the former government waging war on our new home.
Do we now? If i move to Poland i cant be guaranted that Russia wont at some point attack them now can i?
but the bottomline would still be that the govt would've fucked up when it decided to make it a secret, because I don't think anyone would be grateful for them doing so once they found out.
If they kept it secret while they established diplomatic ties and perfected space travel or whatever they could grant us then yes i probably would be grateful that they spared me all that shit that happend in independence day. God damn hippies:ninja:
Yeah but see none of these events are being outrightly spoken by any government to be illegal to investigate, so these things are being well hidden but since they can't be proved other than saying, "You know it happens" it can't be used in an argument, because the govt. doesn't legitimize our suspicions by saying, "Don't you read that or we kill you."
Not outrightly spoken no, but if you stuck you're nose in the wrong buisness we could very well be finding you under the grass on the nearest football field.
Wow. And why can't the WG just tell people the part of the history that just has to do with what they did, why couldn't they cooperate with the Oharans and have a museum for the Poneglyphs and have the Oharans (who also said they didn't want to revive weapons just wanted to know the history) tell the people the meanings of the parts that actually have to do with the history and not the top secret deathbomb shit? It's because what they did is something that threatens their world standing and they don't have the balls to trust in themselves to truly believe that what they is right, so they fear the opinions of the people and continue to do so.
That we dont know, but i'll be deeply disapointed with Oda if all this build up for the world goverment and all the angles covered were only to make them a tired old evil empire with no redeeming features.
Oh yeah thanks Mags, being endorsed by the former opposition has to be the best boost i can get^^
We're not in 2009 irl. You seem to have forgotten that people like law or pirates in general steal, destroy islands, kill people.
So does the government, with less trouble and hesitation even. Besides, how is it an excuse for their atrocities? 'Pirates are bad, so it's okay if the government is worse, as long as they fight against them'?
One Piece chapter 6xx, somewhere in the New World:
Blackbeard: Shanks never told you what happened to your father.
Usopp: He told me enough! He told me you killed him.
Blackbeard: No. I am your father.
Usopp: noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!
Limit exactly what? What we have seen in almost each and every island is a chaos many times because of WG or because of what they did not do. These incidents that we have seen are the very examples of why wolfwood's initial points about how they seemingly are in control are basically BS.
Are you actualy making the argument that every island the the fricking heroes of an action manga lands on seem to get in trouble thus the world goverment doesnt have any control at all?
Next arc the strawhats land on an island where absolutly nothing happens, stay tuned for the thrilling conclusion.
If the void century was such a dirty secret and the wg was so evil why the hell did the roger pirates keep quiet when they learned the truth?the obvious answer is that there is more to it then what we have seen.
If the void century was such a dirty secret and the wg was so evil why the hell did the roger pirates keep quiet when they learned the truth?the obvious answer is that there is more to it then what we have seen.
I love you.:wub:
@Usopp:
So does the government, with less trouble and hesitation even. Besides, how is it an excuse for their atrocities? 'Pirates are bad, so it's okay if the government is worse, as long as they fight against them'?
You need to get rid of that utopic idea you have every WG should be: "Pure justice, always right, friendly and fair to anyone".
Oda has done a great job picturing each side with their black sheeps. Absolute justice, new era, rampaging for fun, celestial dragons etc… At the end the marines still protect a lot of islands. Of course you have corruption everywhere but there are also good guys out there like garp aokiji etc so yeah it's not that bad as you picture it.
@Usopp:
So does the government, with less trouble and hesitation even.
No, they don't.
!
The Elder Star at the bottom left sure wanted to make that order huh; what a monster….
Ohara was only made a target once Spandain and the rest of CP9 managed to confirm that research into the poneglyphs and the Void Century was going on, and even then only the archaeologists and scholars were made to stay during the Buster Call. While Sakazuki's actions in bombing the refugee ship are clearly messed up no matter the reason, we were shown that they do their best to avoid unecessary casualties. Especially ones that aren't involved with whatever crime took place.
Even before that during the Buster Call at Enies Lobby, we were shown three ships picking up their fellow marines and World Government employees so they wouldn't be caught during the attack. As much as Robin was traumatized by what happened when she was little; her statement of how the Buster Call doesn't take into account the people is incorrect.
Besides, how is it an excuse for their atrocities? 'Pirates are bad, so it's okay if the government is worse, as long as they fight against them'?
It's not about excusing anyone of anything, no matter whether pirates, marines, World Government officials or whoever. It's about looking at everything from different points of view, and not just outright labeling entire organizations as "good" or "evil" when we've been shown so many times that in the grand scheme of things within the sotry that there's no such thing.
Notice how wolfwood and MagneticMonkey have never labeled the World Government as good or righteous. On the other hand, so many others are quickly willing to ignore things they have done that are helpful to a lot of people.
Sure there is, as far as we've heard from both Rayleigh and the elder stars the reason its kept secret is because they couldnt handle it. Which sounds perfectly plausible.
So in your view it's ok to be forced to join a certain govt. as the only govt. then for that govt. to tell you what you can't handle. LOL YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!111
Did i miss the part where any of those things threatened the global stability? Because public outrage even on a global scale amounts to next to nothing.
Lol wow, there is nothing as stupid as one govt. ruling everybody in real life (well atleast no one govt. rules everybody in an actually legal or accepted way) see you keep harping on global instability but the world in OP is already suffering from that because of the loyalty split between the revos and the WG. Lol what do you think would happen if the WG released the details of the void century? Do you think mothers would start killing their children? People would start spontaneously combusting or great natural disasters would be unleashed on mankind? It's none of that, at most the people would say fuck the WG and go back into many smaller, self contained govts. perhaps maintaining alliances, sounds a lot like our world, and what's wrong with that? Oh yeah the Tenryuubito quit being God's gift to the earth, how tragic…
What does that have to do with a goverment holding secrets from their populace? Im sure the world goverment heralds their military victories just as much as the next guy. This was never about wars of conquest, this was about them keeping the void century under wraps for undisclose but good reasons. Atleast that's whats been hinted at.
Um maybe because the WG is hiding the seemingly apparent fact that they wiped out some former civilization that chose to leave the Poneglyphs as their last dying effort to spread their story to the generations of the world that would come. You seem to think that the WG is purely hiding some great epic weapon of mass destruction that if the Poneglyph is read will be unleashed upon the earth but yet ignore the fact that the actual unleashing of an ancient weapon isn't tied to the events of what the WG did.
So because they dont know one secret they have suddenly lost their free will? I dont get that line of reasoning.
No it's because they don't know the details of something that's obviously drastic and could potentially be big enough that people and other kingdoms would choose to separate themselves from the WG, it's like marrying a murderer but not knowing what they're true nature is, many would choose to leave such a person if they found out, and it's their right to do so.
They know the history of the world goverment, pretty much all except the void century is common knowledge, Everyone know's how 170 countries joined forces to pool toward a common agenda and a world spanning police force/army and all that jazz.
No what they don't know is that those glorious kings who founded the WG genocided some other civilization, which likely allowed the kings to form the WG as it is today.
@wolfwood:
No they arent covering up the fact that they bombed Ohara, in fact it seems to be commong knowledge that Ohara was wiped out. What they didnt know was what they were researching, and seeing as how that information was deemed dangerous i dont see why it shouldnt be keept from the publics eye.
Did I say that they were? My analogy was for the even larger genocide of some ancient civilization, Ohara is likely just a small island in comparison. Again you must think that this is really just about the Ancient weapons, and it obviously isn't.
Well if the entire world is waging war on each other as you say, then yeah you couldnt move to a neutral country. But you could move were ever the hell you please, like i said they dont have walls keeping you in and you're free to make your choice, and if you wanna throw in your lot with the opposition fine just dont hope to keep friendly ties with your old country.
Well considering that islands are either under the WG, the revolutionaries or undiscovered you likely only have a choice between a WG island or a revo island and if you move to a revo island you have the ever looming threat of the WG imprisoning you or you may not make it at all because I doubt the WG would willingly let anyone join a revolutionary controlled island, yeah what freedom so if your ideals don't align with the WGs you risk death if you try to leave.
But they do, the fate of the Oharans wasnt an obscure fact it was something people talked about. And the information given can pretty much be summed up as propaganda, which would be the normal thing to do. I mean who the hell gives their own campaigns a negative spin.
Read above.
Im just going to say if only it was that simple. But i'll just quote Rayleigh's maybe we were to naive speech once again.
A speech that you seem to have misinterpreted. Correct me if I'm wrong but you seem to take Rayleigh's speech to mean that he thought the killing of the Oharans was tragic but acceptable considering the consequences that could occur if the history would've became known because of the Oharans. Problem is that Rayleigh seemed to only support whatever decision the WG made in the Void Century not the decisions to cover it up, and had he even subtly hinted that he was ok with actions committed by the WG such as the Ohara tragedy then you can bet Robin wouldn't have just stood there as she did. That means that once the Oharans found out the true history the WG should've cut the bullshit and let it be known, the only way the world could be affected in a way to justify the WG's actions to cover up the history would be if by reading the history has an immediate and direct effect of killing masses of people, and that would have to be like some magic word bs within the history.
Why does he have to side with the, just because they may have made a more rational judgement call than he did at the time.
The point is that if he thought the WG was doing such a good job or that they actually offered freedom to their citizens then why oppose them?
The gray scale comes from that the WG moves across the spectrum, from white to black and cant be pinpointed as only doing bad as some seem to want to have it. You have your Akainu's and you have your Garp's.
But then said gray scale is further darkened by the fact that the good marines like Garp again don't know what likely despicable acts the WG committed in it's early stages, and that when certain good marines like Saul wake up and smell the shit that is the WG they decide to quit being a marine because they aren't following the ideals of justice that they thought they would when they enlisted. The scale is further darkened again when you consider that the head of the WG (the Gorousei) knows what happened in the void century but good guys like Garp are ignorant like regular citizens, hell I doubt even Sengoku knows.
Do we now? If i move to Poland i cant be guaranted that Russia wont at some point attack them now can i?
The difference is that our world is more than just a two sided coin, if Russia attacks Poland then there is atleast some beef that they have with Poland (or some bs excuse that they'll make), in OP there are only two places to go and the situation is much more severe either for or against, and people only have the choice of the social contract with either the WG or the Revolutionaries.
If they kept it secret while they established diplomatic ties and perfected space travel or whatever they could grant us then yes i probably would be grateful that they spared me all that shit that happend in independence day. God damn hippies:ninja:
Yes let my govt. lie to me then suddenly say, "Yeah guys guess what? ET did exist and all those crazy people that were shunned by many of you and ridiculed were indeed right, oh and meet gleeborb, don't be shy he's real :). Sorry we kept it hidden from you guys we're BFFs with the gleeborbs now." It'd make it hard to ever be able to trust the word of our current govts if that's the case, especially after all these official statements on UFOs.
Not outrightly spoken no, but if you stuck you're nose in the wrong buisness we could very well be finding you under the grass on the nearest football field.
And yet people investigate government misconduct all the time, if there's anything truly damning then we don't know for w/e reason or atleast it can't be proven :ninja:.
That we dont know, but i'll be deeply disapointed with Oda if all this build up for the world goverment and all the angles covered were only to make them a tired old evil empire with no redeeming features.
Who said that the WG couldn't have redeemable qualities but at the same time also be fucktardedly misguided to the point that they are no longer appropriate to be in power or that the idea of a single united govt. isn't the brightest one? The point is that it is never justified to keep a secret the way that the WG is when they expect to rule the lives of other people and expect their citizens to give up freedoms to be part of that govt. and more so they FORCE their citizens to be apart of them or be the enemy. when you start covering up secrets you just continue to slide further down a slippery slope.
And anyone with two working brain cells to rub together and form thoughts with should know that a single world govt. ran by people (no matter how intelligent) is doomed to failure because people in the end are imperfect and unable to govern so many different people with varying interests and needs in a fair way, so obviously a WG may seem good in theory but realistically is impossible. Hell otherwise we'd probably have something like that in the UN, but in reality it seems like a lot of countries don't give a fuck what the UN says (lol).
The government are just corrupt as fuck. The Ohara incident, so far, seems like the WG killed a race, who just wanted to know some history, to cover up how the WG was formed (probably in a corrupt as fuck way). It seems quite obvious so far that the WG hide things from the public that would make them look bad, so the blank century must involve some shifty shit.
So in your view it's ok to be forced to join a certain govt. as the only govt. then for that govt. to tell you what you can't handle. LOL YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!111
Yeah i do have a firm belief that there are things that are better of kept under wraps.
Lol wow, there is nothing as stupid as one govt. ruling everybody in real life (well atleast no one govt. rules everybody in an actually legal or accepted way)
Well the world goverment is not actualy ruling each country, its more like the European union in that it just handles the bigger picture and lets the individual countries keep a pretty large amount of autonomity. Just look how Cobra could tell the marines that they couldnt just waltz into the palace.
see you keep harping on global instability but the world in OP is already suffering from that because of the loyalty split between the revos and the WG. Lol what do you think would happen if the WG released the details of the void century? Do you think mothers would start killing their children? People would start spontaneously combusting or great natural disasters would be unleashed on mankind?
Seeing how serious it seems id guess that it would be something along the lines of financial collapse, actualy world war, and all the ill that comes along with that.
It's none of that, at most the people would say fuck the WG and go back into many smaller, self contained govts. perhaps maintaining alliances, sounds a lot like our world, and what's wrong with that? Oh yeah the Tenryuubito quit being God's gift to the earth, how tragic…
I hate to say it because it makes me seem condecending and i really dont want to. But that sounds so very naive, if there werent going to be far reaching negative consequences Roger wouldnt have kept his mouth shut.
Um maybe because the WG is hiding the seemingly apparent fact that they wiped out some former civilization that chose to leave the Poneglyphs as their last dying effort to spread their story to the generations of the world that would come.
Yeah i can pretty much guarante it wasnt just them destroying a kingdom at some point that is the big secret of the void century. That's at most the tip of the iceburg.
You seem to think that the WG is purely hiding some great epic weapon of mass destruction that if the Poneglyph is read will be unleashed upon the earth but yet ignore the fact that the actual unleashing of an ancient weapon isn't tied to the events of what the WG did.
The ancient weapons are a part of it yes, because they can in fact be revived using that. But that is the good part so to speak, the things we are kept in the dark of probably dwarf the ancient weapons in how it would affect the world as we know it.
No it's because they don't know the details of something that's obviously drastic and could potentially be big enough that people and other kingdoms would choose to separate themselves from the WG, it's like marrying a murderer but not knowing what they're true nature is, many would choose to leave such a person if they found out, and it's their right to do so.
arent you contradicting yourself a bit here? If it is just them killing some civilisation back then, then why would the current leaders even care. It's not like that is something that heinous that they would dissolve a union that's worked for them for houndreds of years if that was all there was to it.
No what they don't know is that those glorious kings who founded the WG genocided some other civilization, which likely allowed the kings to form the WG as it is today.
Same as the above
Did I say that they were? My analogy was for the even larger genocide of some ancient civilization, Ohara is likely just a small island in comparison. Again you must think that this is really just about the Ancient weapons, and it obviously isn't.
Like i said its a part of it all certainly, but by no means the only part. But its the only piece of the puzzle we can know for sure so that's why it gets brought up alot.
Well considering that islands are either under the WG, the revolutionaries or undiscovered you likely only have a choice between a WG island or a revo island and if you move to a revo island you have the ever looming threat of the WG imprisoning you or you may not make it at all because I doubt the WG would willingly let anyone join a revolutionary controlled island, yeah what freedom so if your ideals don't align with the WGs you risk death if you try to leave.
If you left america for the soviet union during the cold war you probably risked a whole lot as well. Leaving your home for an opponents will piss of your former homeland, its just natural so i dont see why its something argue about.
A speech that you seem to have misinterpreted. Correct me if I'm wrong but you seem to take Rayleigh's speech to mean that he thought the killing of the Oharans was tragic but acceptable considering the consequences that could occur if the history would've became known because of the Oharans.
Well i would probably call it neccesary rather than acceptable, but yeah that's pretty much what i could gather from it.
Problem is that Rayleigh seemed to only support whatever decision the WG made in the Void Century not the decisions to cover it up, and had he even subtly hinted that he was ok with actions committed by the WG such as the Ohara tragedy then you can bet Robin wouldn't have just stood there as she did.
Id think that a woman of Robins intelligence wouldnt question the conclusion a man who knows far more than she does has come to. Its not like he said that he's glad they died, he just said that they like him were to hasty and naive in their way of doing it.
That means that once the Oharans found out the true history the WG should've cut the bullshit and let it be known, the only way the world could be affected in a way to justify the WG's actions to cover up the history would be if by reading the history has an immediate and direct effect of killing masses of people, and that would have to be like some magic word bs within the history.
Well im not going to go with magic words, but that is pretty much what the consequences of the information would be.
The point is that if he thought the WG was doing such a good job or that they actually offered freedom to their citizens then why oppose them?
It seems to be a conclusion that he's come to in the later years, and besides just because he agrees with them on one things doesnt mean that he cant oppose them for another. Like ive said all along i know they arent perfect but is it so hard to belive that when they go to these great lengths and the one man we know who has seen the whole picture doesnt condemn them that it wasnt an act of wanton cruelty and malice.
But then said gray scale is further darkened by the fact that the good marines like Garp again don't know what likely despicable acts the WG committed in it's early stages, and that certain good marines like Saul wake up and smell the shit that is the WG they decide to quit being a marine because they aren't following the ideals of justice that they thought they would when they enlisted.
I think Garp is actualy in the know, but that's just a speculation of mine.
The scale is further darkened again when you consider that the head of the WG (the Gorousei) knows what happened in the void century but good guys like Garp are ignorant like regular citizens, hell I doubt even Sengoku knows.
Why does that neccesarily darken it? Are we just assuming that the void century is going to paint a picture as dark as the night of the elder stars, or is it just possible that they are actualy going to be portrayed in a sympathetic light. That they arent these power hungry despots who's only joy is keeping their power and abusing it.
The difference is that there our world is more than just a two sided coin, if Russia attacks Poland then there is atleast some beef that they have with Poland (or some bs excuse that they'll make), in OP there are only two places to go and the situation is much more severe either for or against, and people only have the choice of the social contract with either the WG or the Revolutionaries.
Quite a big assumption, and really we only have to actual side's as well.
Either you're with Russia and China or you're with the US.
And yet people investigate government misconduct all the time, if there's anything truly damning then we don't know for w/e reason.
It's all about the scale of the offense, little pissant things arent going to lead anywhere. But if you as a person could actual threaten the national stability of your country the NSA would have you in a body bag before you could blink.
Who said that the WG couldn't have redeemable qualities but at the same time also be fucktardedly misguided to the point that they are no longer appropriate to be in power or that the idea of a single united govt. isn't the brightest one?
Well the only oppostion seems to want to impose yet another huge goverment except with Dragon at the helm. So i dont see any change at that front.
The point is that it is never justified to keep a secret the way that the WG is when they expect to rule the lives of other people and expect their citizens to give up freedoms to be part of that govt. and more so they FORCE their citizens to be apart of them or be the enemy. when you start covering up secrets you just continue to slide further down a slippery slope.
There you and i will absolutly disagree, i can think of countless times when the goverment should withold information for the public good.
And anyone with two working brain cells to rub together and form thoughts with should know that a single world govt. ran by people (no matter how intelligent) is doomed to failure because people in the end are imperfect and unable to govern so many different people with varying interests and needs in a fair way,
Well then its good that they dont, the countries themselves are governed by rulers who know and understand their countries needs and problems and the elder stars only deal with global reaching things such as the economy and the marines.
so obviously a WG may seem good in theory but realistically impossible. Hell otherwise we'd probably have something like that in the UN, but in reality it seems like a lot of countries don't give a fuck what the UN says (lol).
The european union is pretty much the equivilent of the world goverment, except in a slightly smaller scale. Many self sustaining countries joined in a military and economic codependence.
You need to get rid of that utopic idea you have every WG should be: "Pure justice, always right, friendly and fair to anyone".
Oda has done a great job picturing each side with their black sheeps. Absolute justice, new era, rampaging for fun, celestial dragons etc… At the end the marines still protect a lot of islands. Of course you have corruption everywhere but there are also good guys out there like garp aokiji etc so yeah it's not that bad as you picture it.
Lol it's not about how good they are supposed to be or how bad the pirates are. It's about basic fucking human rights. They don't even seem to have a rule of law, or at least high ranking officers/nobles don't seem to have to follow it, and therefore it's a corrupt as fuck government. There's no discussion possible about this, it's not even a matter of interpretation, it's right there in the manga. Marines executing people without any kind of trial. Nobles doing whatever the hell they want. Cutting deals with pirates over the lives of civilians. Nuking islands over historic knowledge. What the hell are you trying to argue against?
One Piece chapter 6xx, somewhere in the New World:
Blackbeard: Shanks never told you what happened to your father.
Usopp: He told me enough! He told me you killed him.
Blackbeard: No. I am your father.
Usopp: noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!
If I was one of the rulers of the WG and my only intent was to be fair and protect all the people under my rule, here are some of my assessments:
Akainu (Kizaru): the kind of guy we need, he does what needs to be done, even if it involves some unpleasantries that others would be too weak-hearted or mellow to go through with.
Aokiji: total failure, to be stripped of rank and thrown in jail. (or better yet, killed so his DF can be reused) He let the one person escape that has the knowledge to endanger many lands. And now, 21 years later, this mentally unstable woman has learned the location of 2 ancient weapons, and joined a pirate crew who openly declared war on the WG! Oh yeah, he recently let her away again once or twice.
Garp: his son and grandson two major anti-WG criminals; He may have been a hero before, but he rescued Roger's son and proceeded to RAISE him! On top of that he knowingly withheld information about Silvers Rayleigh from his superiors (Sengoku), remember this was a Roger Pirate who knows ALL the secrets. Deepest pits of hell for Garp.
Hannyabal: The speech he gave to Luffy just before his defeat - truer words were never uttered. Even if you're a criminal, it had to strike home how right he was. Luffy's response? "I don't care, I just want to save my brother." (who isn't even his brother anyway) We need more loyal followers like Hannyabal and Magellan.
(could go on but too tired)
Now that ive got to thinking wonder if the world goverment has a plan for how they are going to ease this into society in a way that works for them, or if they feel that they can never let it be known.
I am of course leaning toward the latter, but the first would be an intresting angle.
I doubt the former was ever an option in their eyes.
In their paranoia concerning anything about that I would say they've never even considered letting whatever information is contained in the Void Century be known. No matter how much time goes by, well at least the current ones running things.
And now, 21 years later, this mentally unstable woman has learned the location of 2 ancient weapons
The World Government wouldn't know that.
-Pluton: outside of Crocodile(doesn't care about Alabasta anymore), Cobra(wouldn't say anything) and Luffy(doesn't care period) no one knows that Robin has knowledge of where it's located.
-Poseidon: since only some Shandians were around when Robin found and subesquently read the poneglyph at Skypeia and they don't even know what it says let alone concern themselves with the Blue Seas.
I'll read your next reply wolfwood but since we'll inevitably have this same discussion again (one we've had before other times) and again till we know the story behind the WG, I'll call an end to this round.[hide]@wolfwood:
Yeah i do have a firm belief that there are things that are better of kept under wraps.
So if you were in the matrix you wouldn't even want to know about the existence of a red or blue pill? J/k. Fine if you feel that way, I guess.
Well the world goverment is not actualy ruling each country, its more like the European union in that it just handles the bigger picture and lets the individual countries keep a pretty large amount of autonomity. Just look how Cobra could tell the marines that they couldnt just waltz into the palace.
Still doesn't change the very real influence that the WG holds over these countries and I wouldn't be surprised if a percentage of each countries wealth must go to the WG. Had the marines wanted/or needed to get into that palace bad enough they could've.
Seeing how serious it seems id guess that it would be something along the lines of financial collapse, actualy world war, and all the ill that comes along with that.
All things that the people could consider when weighing the choice of whether or not they wish to keep the current system based off the knowledge of the void century. The point is that it's their right to be able to decide for themselves not for 5 guys to deem it to be too shocking or hard for them.
I hate to say it because it makes me seem condecending and i really dont want to. But that sounds so very naive, if there werent going to be far reaching negative consequences Roger wouldnt have kept his mouth shut.
Why would Roger care? He's a pirate just as Luffy is, and just as Luffy said he didn't care about governmental matters (unless it affects his loved ones) I'm sure Roger was the same way.
Yeah i can pretty much guarante it wasnt just them destroying a kingdom at some point that is the big secret of the void century. That's at most the tip of the iceburg.
And if it's anything in which the WG can say with confidence that they did the right thing then why not allow the people to make their own decisions. I doubt Oda is trying to send the reader a message of "it's ok to keep secrets as long as you have a good enough reason."
The ancient weapons are a part of it yes, because they can in fact be revived using that. But that is the good part so to speak, the things we are kept in the dark of probably dwarf the ancient weapons in how it would affect the world as we know it.
Again if the effect of the world would involve the free choice of the citizens and not be some magical automatic doomsday button then they shouldn't hide it.
arent you contradicting yourself a bit here? If it is just them killing some civilisation back then, then why would the current leaders even care. It's not like that is something that heinous that they would dissolve a union that's worked for them for houndreds of years if that was all there was to it.
Maybe that's what the WG fears? Point is that you never know because you're making this judgement of how rulers in real life would act, but I don't think many real life rulers are like Kobra who would allow the open criticism of himself and the throne by his citizens, he's a ruler that tried to level with his people and tell them the truth, so why would he stay with a bigger organization that didn't share this way of doing things like himself?
Like i said its a part of it all certainly, but by no means the only part. But its the only piece of the puzzle we can know for sure so that's why it gets brought up alot.
More than that is that I haven't even heard of a speculated scenario that could provide more to the story of the void century that would justify the WG's actions.
If you left america for the soviet union during the cold war you probably risked a whole lot as well. Leaving your home for an opponents will piss of your former homeland, its just natural so i dont see why its something argue about.
Besides the fact that I don't think anyone would choose to make the trip that you're suggesting, another issue is that my point is that the WG monopolizes govt. so that any other place outside of the WG would be like going to the Soviet Union from America during the Cold War.
Well i would probably call it neccesary rather than acceptable, but yeah that's pretty much what i could gather from it.
Yes it was necessary to eradicate the Oharans, they weren't intelligent enough to eventually arrive to the same conclusion that Rayleigh did even though he admitted to not being as intelligent, the Oharans just wanted to fuck the world up so badly that they couldn't be reasoned with. And an 8 year old girl who didn't even know the history but could read it also needed to be killed.
Id think that a woman of Robins intelligence wouldnt question the conclusion a man who knows far more than she does has come to. Its not like he said that he's glad they died, he just said that they like him were to hasty and naive in their way of doing it.
Rayleigh himself even made it sound like even his conclusion may not be the correct one, but atleast he gave Robin the choice to hear the information from him.
Well im not going to go with magic words, but that is pretty much what the consequences of the information would be.
So you think the knowledge of the history bypasses human freewill of choice and would instantly cause the deaths of masses of people again without people choosing to go to war or something. How is that anything other than something magical?
@wolfwood:
It seems to be a conclusion that he's come to in the later years, and besides just because he agrees with them on one things doesnt mean that he cant oppose them for another. Like ive said all along i know they arent perfect but is it so hard to belive that when they go to these great lengths and the one man we know who has seen the whole picture doesnt condemn them that it wasnt an act of wanton cruelty and malice.
No but at the same time it doesn't make their decisions just, people can do evil things and not be evil themselves, that's the only gray here. Hiding the history is bad, but yeah their intentions may be equal parts good and equal parts selfish. Killing the Oharan is evil, but again their intentions count. Point is that it's not right for the five to withold information that could shape people's decisions on whether or not they believe that this govt. and it's status quo is acceptable for them.
I think Garp is actualy in the know, but that's just a speculation of mine.
I doubt it, Garp is being torn up with his current decision, I doubt he has knowledge of something probably much more morally straining.
Why does that neccesarily darken it? Are we just assuming that the void century is going to paint a picture as dark as the night of the elder stars, or is it just possible that they are actualy going to be portrayed in a sympathetic light. That they arent these power hungry despots who's only joy is keeping their power and abusing it.
No I'm assuming that it was the lives of the ancient citizens for the lives of the rest of the world, but again they shouldn't hide it. Besides this thought isn't as absurd as thinking that part of this isn't the Gorousei just wanting to protect their own ass, that's just human nature to pursue and protect ones own interests, beats this "It was completely necessary and just" I seem to be hearing.
@wolfwood:
Quite a big assumption, and really we only have to actual side's as well.
Either you're with Russia and China or you're with the US.
Yes but that's because of how the modern world is divided between alliances, the WG's goal is to have complete control over everyone, allied countries but still under the wing of the WG, not so in reality or atleast no one is blatantly pursuing complete world dominance and being allowed to do so.
It's all about the scale of the offense, little pissant things arent going to lead anywhere. But if you as a person could actual threaten the national stability of your country the NSA would have you in a body bag before you could blink.
If you're caught disclosing secrets you'd end up in jail, if it's major than you'll been seen as a terrorist and painted as such but even if you were giving national security secrets to the Taliban you'd end up in prison not killed unless you were a violent direct threat yourself, some nerd hacking the NSA and disclosing secrets to the Taliban would still be tried but I doubt he'd be wacked and under a football field.
@wolfwood:
Well the only oppostion seems to want to impose yet another huge goverment except with Dragon at the helm. So i dont see any change at that front.
We don't know if Dragon wants to have a unified singular govt or not.
There you and i will absolutly disagree, i can think of countless times when the goverment should withold information for the public good.
Again your missing the nuance, I said the way as in killing en masse to protect the secret when it's found out. And god please don't use an argument like we know the govt. sends assassins to wack people in these instances.
Well then its good that they dont, the countries themselves are governed by rulers who know and understand their countries needs and problems and the elder stars only deal with global reaching things such as the economy and the marines.
Yes and we see the lengths that the Gorousei is going to in order to maintain this umbrella organization known as the WG, it's obviously not something that can be successful and not be corrupted.
And the European union isn't nearly as large scale as you admitted and is in alliance with other large powers like the US so it isn't monopolizing the world like the WG.
[/hide]
It's like this;
Some of the government are evil and some of them are not.
Some of the pirates are evil and some of them are not.
Those who are evil can still do good things and those who are good can still do evil things.
There is a difficult line to be drawn because everyone believes in their own sense of justice. Neither of which are right or wrong.
This is the whole reason DoFlo was laughing because he understands how pointless it is to fight for the reason of trying to put everyone on the same side. Just to be there and witnessing what was for him everyone's stupidity no wonder he was laughing.
Anyway to stop the rant and make a final point. There's not a side(pirates) against a side(government) against a side(revolutionaries).
It's an all on all free for all each person doing what they think is best. The sides are all an illusion.
~Kyoujin Pirates Treasurer~
Mmmbug you are right and that is what i am saying also .
Take that doctor on SB that got his woman taken away and almost die . If he was to say the WG is evil and they full of corruption who can say he wrong .
The same time those people that allow to buy as much slaves as they want must love the WG.
The WG is does help people but the fact is some people in OP don't like them or what they stand for ,that's why we have the revolutionaries . Then there also the fact some people have pirates who protect them .
That why i like OP the WG is not black and white but depending on your own believes and what side you on ,you can say they evil or not .
I really miss boiga.
Is that relevant? No? I don't care- I just want boiga to come back.
You want relevancy? Fine.
Power corrupts. Absolute Power corrupts absolutely. And how can any entity or agency speak of upholding/enforcing Absolute Justice when they lack the power to return life to those from whom it has been unfairly taken?
The World Government wouldn't know that.
-Pluton: outside of Crocodile(doesn't care about Alabasta anymore), Cobra(wouldn't say anything) and Luffy(doesn't care period) no one knows that Robin has knowledge of where it's located.
-Poseidon: since only some Shandians were around when Robin found and subesquently read the poneglyph at Skypeia and they don't even know what it says let alone concern themselves with the Blue Seas.
We've been given no indication that they know, but they might very well. There were already rumors about the Alabasta one (which is why croc went there), plus croc has been in jail/hell for many months, the question is more whether or not the government put two and two together. About the skypiea one, there might be similar rumors in higher circles about a weapon location there, and WG spies/researchers/scientists can have gone there, maybe after the rumor spread that Roger left some of his own markings up there.
I doubt it or Enel/Eneru would have been more known in the blue seas.
@Usopp:
Lol it's not about how good they are supposed to be or how bad the pirates are. It's about basic fucking human rights. They don't even seem to have a rule of law, or at least high ranking officers/nobles don't seem to have to follow it,
They have what are you even trying to say here? That aokiji kizaru or Akainu just kill people for fun when they're bored?
and therefore it's a corrupt as fuck government. There's no discussion possible about this, it's not even a matter of interpretation, it's right there in the manga.
I never said the WG isn't corrupt. The fact that the Celestial dragons exist is a shame. But hey look at WB even his crew isn't exempt of guys who respect the rules he set up.
Marines executing people without any kind of trial.
What about all those who got a fair trial?
Nobles doing whatever the hell they want.
Yeah it's a shame as much as pirates doing the hell they want.
Cutting deals with pirates over the lives of civilians.
It's a pact with the evil from their point of view to establish something that will held the world in balance. The marines are annoying the pirates otherwise no one of the 7 shichis would have such a position. The marines are a power in the world and this power stands for justice. That life isn't rosy is just well the way things are…
Nuking islands over historic knowledge. What the hell are you trying to argue against?
Now what would you say if the WG really is protecting something that is so bad that letting people research it would throw the world into total chaos? You saw that crocodile tried to revive pluton.
Don't make your speculation as fact. We don't know what they're protecting. If you want to argue this at least consider the other options.
They have what are you even trying to say here? That aokiji kizaru or Akainu just kill people for fun when they're bored?
What about all those who got a fair trial?
What, where? At Enies Lobby?
Concerning the Admirals, they do seem to randomly kill people as they see fit. At least Akainu does. He ordered a ship full of civilians to get bombed on the off chance one of the historians escaped on it, instead of just holding the boat, searching it for any escaped historians and arresting them if they find one, IF they'd actually done something wrong, which they didn't. I don't care about your excuses about how dangerous their knowledge could be, it doesn't justify any of the WGs actions. I'm pretty sure there's more examples to be found in the manga that I can't list right now.
It's a pact with the evil from their point of view to establish something that will held the world in balance. The marines are annoying the pirates otherwise no one of the 7 shichis would have such a position. The marines are a power in the world and this power stands for justice. That life isn't rosy is just well the way things are…
So what about Arlong cutting a deal with that mouse marine? Sure he's only one out of a lot of the, but there was absolutely nobody in the Marines who ever found out, which means they don't have an internal affairs department. Which means officers can do whatever the hell they want.
Btw, I'd much rather be ruled by pirates than the WG. At least Whitebeard seemed to do a decent job with Fishman Island, by restoring peace and ending slavery, something the WG couldn't/didn't want to accomplish.
One Piece chapter 6xx, somewhere in the New World:
Blackbeard: Shanks never told you what happened to your father.
Usopp: He told me enough! He told me you killed him.
Blackbeard: No. I am your father.
Usopp: noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!
@Usopp:
Btw, I'd much rather be ruled by pirates than the WG.
Way to shoot down any credibility you might have had.
