I'd just like to point out that Luffy and Blueno were NEVER fighting evenly. Re-read the fight. Luffy owned him really hard with little resistence up until Blueno unleashed the Doa Doa "attacks". He never even landed a single blow the entire match.
Chapter 415 "Heat Increase" Discussion
-
-
That last part is good speculation. Unless I am mistaken, when Leopard-Lucci first showed up, he established Tekkai while in animal mode.Though it was never broken after that, we don't know whether or not he would be able to re-establish it while in animal mode, so you may have a point. We'll just have to wait and see.
Not really.
If this was true, then they'd have to say they were undoing their Tekkai any time they wanted to move no?
And Jyabura certainly wouldn't be the only one to have made such a concentrated effort to master it so he could move while doing Tekkai.
-
I'd just like to point out that Luffy and Blueno were NEVER fighting evenly. Re-read the fight. Luffy owned him really hard with little resistence up until Blueno unleashed the Doa Doa "attacks". He never even landed a single blow the entire match.
Exactly. It looks like Luffy was having trouble to some people because he didn't actually beat him in one punch. Luffy let blueno come and blocked/dodged accordingly. I seems to me Luffy was using blueno as a gauge of his strengh and to test out his gears.
-
The only time Blueno really got Luffy at all was the Revolving Door. Even then Luffy managed to avoid attacks until it wore off.
-
Lol @ Kenechi
This is again one of those one-sided arguments when single entity who somehow cannot understand something strongly believes in certain obviously wrong thing. Give it up.
Just like how everyoine else refuses to believe that Kumadori outclassed Chopper in every way before he ate the 3rd rumble ball?
-
@Cap'n:
Just like how everyoine else refuses to believe that Kumadori outclassed Chopper in every way before he ate the 3rd rumble ball?
Yeah, that's always been pretty obvious to me..Chopper wasn't match for Kumadori at all. Just like Luffy had the control against Blueno since the very beginning, and then we have some assumptions that Arm Point Chopper equals Gearless Luffy..
-
@Cap'n:
Just like how everyoine else refuses to believe that Kumadori outclassed Chopper in every way before he ate the 3rd rumble ball?
Why do people think that? In the chapter where Kumadori was wailing on Chopper, he had taken his second rumble ball and knew that if he transformed to specific forms, he would be able to avoid damage and parry. The only reason the fight went Kuma's way was because Chopper couldn't control the transformations.
My view of Tekkai is as such: Tekkai prevents any damage done at all until the breaking point, where not only the excess damage that exceeded Tekkai's potential is dealt, but in fact the full damage is dealt. I believe this is the case where Blueno's and Kumadori's Tekkai Gous were broken, only in Blueno's case perhaps a bit more strength was used, coupled with the fact that Luffy was totally in control thus causing Blueno's will to battle to weaken. Kumadori, on the other hand, sees a severely wounded opponent on the ground, and pushes himself on to overcome the damage. He was definitely in a fit of mania (undoubtedly caused by pushing his limits) when he counterattacked after the sakura snowstorm blast. Kind of like Luffy in that fight with Crocodile; "I will exceed you!"
That's why I think Chopper wasn't totally outclassed, yo.
-
Regarding the Luffy-Blueno fight: Aside from landing two blows in the beginning of the fight (because Blueno underestimated Luffy), NEITHER opponent managed to hit each other. And "number of hits taken" is'nt equal to defeat. Take a look at Luffy vs. Crocodile round 2.
Phlemingo, regarding your view of tekkai:
What about the time Luffy used his Rifle on Bluneo? We saw visual damage (he bled) yet he kept standing, instead of flying off the courthouse (like Enel would).
And what about when Franky punched Fukorou in the head (pre-cola)? Fukorou bled, but otherwise nothing happened. Even if Franky wasn't at full power, a strong hammer to the head oughta send a normal human into the wall.
So, my point is, the attack caused an effect, but not the entire effect. -
Nice chapter. Thanks a mill.
-
@The:
Phlemingo, regarding your view of tekkai:
What about the time Luffy used his Rifle on Bluneo? We saw visual damage (he bled) yet he kept standing, instead of flying off the courthouse (like Enel would).
And what about when Franky punched Fukorou in the head (pre-cola)? Fukorou bled, but otherwise nothing happened. Even if Franky wasn't at full power, a strong hammer to the head oughta send a normal human into the wall.
So, my point is, the attack caused an effect, but not the entire effect.True. What I think is that the damage is still received. The tekkai user is just frozen in his tekkai state while the damage is received. Enel would fly if he took a direct rifle hit because the kinetic energy is transferred to him, but Tekkais absorb the kinetic energy (and supposedly the damage too) but not when the attack's too strong.
Look at it this way; if even Luffy's Gomu Pistol (a relatively weak attack) causes people to fly, then Tekkai Blueno would do so if hit by a gomu rifle; he's superhuman, not super heavy. So, if it's true that only the excess damage is taken through the tekkai, and judging from the fact that Blueno didn't fly, we'd have to say the excess damage is weak. However, the bleeding and shocked expression tell us otherwise. Thus I think he takes full damage through the tekkai. Perhaps I should rephrase from "breaking Tekkai" to "bypassing Tekkai".
Tekkai has always given me the impression of once someone powers through it, the user gets the full hurt.
-
It looks like only the excess damage of a hit is received when Tekkai is broken.
Tekkai is like the armor you get in FPS games IMO. The armor absorbs as much damage as possible and the excess damage is then transferred to the user.Of course this would also mean that it was only the excess damage that caused the KO's we have seen so far. Implying that the actual damage itself would be far far greater.
-
This post is deleted!
-
To minimize the risk of dragging this thread off topic again, this will be my final say on the matter.
@Cap'n:
Franky's muscles and body are the steel. It's not like he turned himself into metal before the fight started to give himself an unfair advantage.
The fact is, that given the same driving force steel will always have a far easier time punching through steel than flesh and bones will. I really don't understand how you can argue with this.
@Cap'n:
And like Kenechi said, if Franky was weak and made of steel, he wouldn'tve made a difference.
Chopper also uses perfomance enhacning drugs.
I'm not sure if Chopper should be gauged for strength using his fight with Kumadori, since Kumadori stomped him pretty hard. Chopper put up a good fight, but in the end wasn't much of a match for Kumadori.
I honestly don't care at all whether Franky is stronger than Chopper in a fight. My intention was never to argue whether Chopper can take Franky in a fight (when did I ever argue this?), turning this thread into another pointless versus argument. My original intention was to figure out what kind of fighter Oda plans to turn Chopper into**. And figuring out which is stronger, Sanji's strongest non-fire kick or Chopper's strongest attack Roseo may have helped to clarify the matter. To be honest, I'm still on the fence about this. And quite frankly, somehow bringing in the fact that Franky easily broke Furkuro's tekkai into the equation really doesn't help at all, and just brings things way off topic as we've just witnessed.
** As fighters I've always pictured the Strawhats in terms of RPG classes. IMHO, this is a much better way to look at the SH's than classifying them based on power levels, which places far too much importance on the strength of a character. Since each RPG class has its own strengths and weaknesses and its own unique and useful roles to play in a party, you can't really say one is the better than the other. Which class a person feels is best is really all a matter of personal preference. Anyways, this is how I class the SH's:
Zoro - Knight
Sanji - Monk
Usopp - Ranger/archer
Nami - Wizard/sorceress
Robin - Summoner (this one's a bit iffier than the others)As for Chopper, in the past I always pictured him as a healer. But now with the latest manga developments, Oda might be planning to turn him into a berserker class character, and leave healing as a secondary non-fighting role as he rarely heals anyone during a fight.
Luffy's the only one I have trouble classifying. But if I had to classify him, I'd say he'd be a cross between a ranger and a monk.
-
I think Sanji was able to break the Tekkai with his normal kicks but after he uses his new move he destroyed him like Luffy did it with Blueno after he went Gear 2
Off Topic:
Did anybody notice that Sanji looks like Dante from Devil May Cry in the colour spread -
Those classes don't really represent them imo.. it's more like
Luffy - Warrior
Zoro - Rogue (melee)
Sanji - Paladin
Nami - Sorceress
Ussop - Rogue (traps and projectiles)Chopper would be like a druid more so than any kind of healer during battle
and I cant really fit Robin or Franky into any kind of class I can think of. -
franky is the android guy. robin is the damzel in destress.. why would you want to put everyone in a category anyway? one thing we learnt about one piece is that it's ORIGINAL ~.~ oda might get inspired but that doesnt mean he has to follow the same paths as everyone does
-
To minimize the risk of dragging this thread off topic again, this will be my final say on the matter.
The fact is, that given the same driving force steel will always have a far easier time punching through steel than flesh and bones will. I really don't understand how you can argue with this.
I think the point is that steel alone simply doesn't help. Tilestone mentioned he was reknowned for his strength, and came at Blueno with a giant hammer. You can argue that Franky has stronger material, but in order to do anything at all he'd still need a lot of power. His energy is what made the difference between Franky Boxing (multiple punches that did little) and his charged Strong Right, the metal never changed.
-
Thanks for the RAW, man Jabura's getting the asswhoopin of his life!
BTW, anyone have the latest character poll list? -
in regards to the whole chopper versus franky versus sanji thing for strength. you all need to remember that strength without technique is useless.
-
@Freeman-12:
BTW, anyone have the latest character poll list?
-
Why do people think that? In the chapter where Kumadori was wailing on Chopper, he had taken his second rumble ball and knew that if he transformed to specific forms, he would be able to avoid damage and parry. The only reason the fight went Kuma's way was because Chopper couldn't control the transformations.
Even before his chomping the second rumble ball, Kumadori seemed to have the upperhand.
Maybe if Chopper had done things smarter he would've been more of match for Kuamdori. But the point is he didn't. Maybe if Luffy were on fire he could've beaten Ao Kiji, maybe if Usopp were 40 ft away from Jabura he'dve had a chance. The point is none of this happened, and even in the first place, "ifs" are just speculation.
It just feels like people keep making excuses for why Chopper got stomped into the ground, other than him having an opponent he couldn't handle.
-
@Cap'n:
Even before his chomping the second rumble ball, Kumadori seemed to have the upperhand.
Maybe if Chopper had done things smarter he would've been more of match for Kuamdori. But the point is he didn't. Maybe if Luffy were on fire he could've beaten Ao Kiji, maybe if Usopp were 40 ft away from Jabura he'dve had a chance. The point is none of this happened, and even in the first place, "ifs" are just speculation.
It just feels like people keep making excuses for why Chopper got stomped into the ground, other than him having an opponent he couldn't handle.
Chopper was losing yeah, but the excuse is that his rumble ball wasn't working, hence he couldn't control his transformations. During his first rumble ball, Chopper was wailing on Kumadori. He wasn't distracted by Nami, Snaji falling through a ceiling, and the search for keys when he took his first rumble ball to save Nami.
It's kind of like Sanji vs. Calipha. If things weren't as they were , maybe it would have been different.
-
During his first Rumble Ball, Chopper only hit Kumadori twice, through surprise attacks, when Kumadori wasn't using Tekkai. Then we didn't see the rest of the fight, until Kumadori smashed Chopper through the Kitchen wall. Then after that, Kumadori beat Chopper up. Then chopper took the second Rumble Ball. Then he couldn't control his transformations, and got beat upo even more. Then he got Arm point, hit Kumadori with his strongest attack, which Kumadori took with the strongest Tekkai. Then Kumadori beat Chopper up some more.
So, all in all, Chopper got three hits in at Arm Point, and lost. Franky got two hits in at full power, and won.
-
During his first Rumble Ball, Chopper only hit Kumadori twice, through surprise attacks, when Kumadori wasn't using Tekkai. Then we didn't see the rest of the fight, until Kumadori smashed Chopper through the Kitchen wall.
Re-read the chapter, Chopper his Kumadori twice. One with a koutei roseo through a wall, and again with a koutei cross in the stomach, at the second-to-last page of chapter 403.
So, in all Chopper in Kumadori three times, that last attack making look like Kumadori almost passed out.
-
Kumadori started talking a few seconds after he was hit, and then got up after he finished talking. He also only fell to his knees. He wasn't going to pass out.
-
Kumadori started talking a few seconds after he was hit, and then got up after he finished talking. He also only fell to his knees. He wasn't going to pass out.
I was talking about the last attack, Chopper "strongest attack" during his second rumble ball. I'm saying Oda was making it look like maybe Kumadori was going to pass out, for tension and such.
-
This post is deleted!
-
This post is deleted!
-
BTW, does anyone else find it a little disconcerting that Chopper was able to penetrate the tekkai barrier with his strength alone while Sanji needed fire to help him break tekkai? Perhaps steel breaking is reserved for later. Can't have Sanji surpassing Zeff just yet I suppose. Still, it would mean that Chopper is in some respects stronger than Sanji when it comes to pure physical attacks.
Chopper uses his hooves, which are almost as hard as metal. It's like Franky using his metallic fist for punching. The natural hardness of their "fists" makes it slightly easier to break tekkai than using legs.
So, all in all, Chopper got three hits in at Arm Point, and lost. Franky got two hits in at full power, and won.
I was wondering, how you determine whether someone has lost a fight or not? I always thought, in One Piece at least, as long as you haven't completely passed out or gave up, the battle is still on. Chopper did almost give up, but in the end, he chose not to for the sake of Robin. Hence all was not lost yet. To me a defeat is like Luffy losing to crocodile the first time they fought, whereby he could no longer do anything by himself after being thrown into the quicksand.
-
Yeah, Chopper lost the fight. He couldn't do anything, except eat another Rumble Ball. He said himself, he couldn't even attack anymore. He had lost.
-
Chopper uses his hooves, which are almost as hard as metal. It's like Franky using his metallic fist for punching. The natural hardness of their "fists" makes it slightly easier to break tekkai than using legs.
I was wondering, how you determine whether someone has lost a fight or not? I always thought, in One Piece at least, as long as you haven't completely passed out or gave up, the battle is still on. Chopper did almost give up, but in the end, he chose not to for the sake of Robin. Hence all was not lost yet. To me a defeat is like Luffy losing to crocodile the first time they fought, whereby he could no longer do anything by himself after being thrown into the quicksand.
There's a such thing as a shut out. Jabura didn't get in the death blow, but it was made clear that Usopp would not have won. Same with Chopper. He couldn't do anything else to Kumadori, and only avoided death because he accidentally shrunk.
The part that can be debated is if he would have won had he used all three minutes to fight, but I highly doubt that.
-
Yeah, Chopper lost the fight. He couldn't do anything, except eat another Rumble Ball. He said himself, he couldn't even attack anymore. He had lost.
So I guess we see things differently. For example, I do consider eating another rumble ball doing sth, even if it's a simple thing that doesn't require much effort. I agree that he did say "he couldn't attack anymore", that's why I said he "almost gave up, but in the end he didn't", hence he took the 3rd rumble ball. It's not like Chopper just lay there and allowed Kumadori to walk away victorious (Kumadori didn't even have the chance to do that).
I also consider Monster Chopper to be Chopper himself. So to me, Chopper won Kumadori in the end.
-
Chopper uses his hooves, which are almost as hard as metal. It's like Franky using his metallic fist for punching. The natural hardness of their "fists" makes it slightly easier to break tekkai than using legs.
I told myself that I wouldn't get involved with this debate anymore, but since I was waiting for someone to bring up this point, I can't help but respond.
If you'll notice, Roseo's stance involves flattening of the palms with the hooves sticking straight out. Therefore, based on physics, successful penetration of tekkai using Rosea has much to do with the palms and the driving force behind them, and very little to do with the hooves.
-
So I guess we see things differently. For example, I do consider eating another rumble ball doing sth, even if it's a simple thing that doesn't require much effort. I agree that he did say "he couldn't attack anymore", that's why I said he "almost gave up, but in the end he didn't", hence he took the 3rd rumble ball. It's not like Chopper just lay there and allowed Kumadori to walk away victorious (Kumadori didn't even have the chance to do that).
I also consider Monster Chopper to be Chopper himself. So to me, Chopper won Kumadori in the end.
Yes, the one thing I hate about the Chopper part about this discussion is that people are talking about it like he lost, despite Kumadori being tossed on the others side of Enies Lobby. It seems unbalanced, how everyone can belittle his victories and strengths.
I mean, I know at best he's the 4th strongest SH (not yet counting Franky), but c'mon.
-
Monster Chopper shouldn't be counted as Chopper, seeing as he didn't even know who his nakama were. He was just a monster.
Also, Robin is stronger than Chopper, accoriding to Skypiea, as I've already shown… -
First of all, I apologise for going off-topic. There's nothing about Sanji or Jab in this post, so don't read on if you prefer reading sth related to this chpt.
There's a such thing as a shut out. Jabura didn't get in the death blow, but it was made clear that Usopp would not have won. Same with Chopper. He couldn't do anything else to Kumadori, and only avoided death because he accidentally shrunk.
The difference between Usopp's situation and Chopper's is that Usopp needs Sanji to save him from death, whereas Chopper can save himself, accident or not. As far as I'm concerned, the battle is not over when you can still do sth by yourself.
My stand on this issue is, at the point when you think Chopper has lost, i.e. before he turns into monster, the battle is still going on, hence Kumadori has not won and Chopper has not lost.
Monster Chopper shouldn't be counted as Chopper, seeing as he didn't even know who his nakama were. He was just a monster.
I know someone will debate on this. Lets use your reason (in bold) as the basis of this argument. Let say Chopper had an accident which caused him to lose his memory, so he didn't know who his nakamas were or even who he was. Had Chopper become someone else?
Moreover, his nakamas and Franky recognise him, and still treat him as Chopper.
Yes, the one thing I hate about the Chopper part about this discussion is that people are talking about it like he lost, despite Kumadori being tossed on the others side of Enies Lobby. It seems unbalanced, how everyone can belittle his victories and strengths.
It's nice to know there's someone out there who see things the way I do.
-
Monster Chopper shouldn't be counted as Chopper, seeing as he didn't even know who his nakama were. He was just a monster.
Also, Robin is stronger than Chopper, accoriding to Skypiea, as I've already shown…Now that's just unfair, dammit. In this arc, Chopper showed us how much stamina he has (dozens of shigans), that he can hit you a dozen times in one strike, and that he can turn into a giant, out-of-control monster that can tear apart a CP9, and you want to take away Chopper's credit.
So, it's no one's fault that Kumadori is unconscious right now? It's like his "victory" over Gedatsu all over again (which I'd like to count for something, Gedatsu fought evenly with the other priests).
And yeah…Robin's probably stronger then everyone in the crew beisdes Luffy thanks to her power, but she's kind of a wild card. She's invincible to some fighters and helpless against others (Logias).
-
Omg… this is argument is drenched in bias.
I mean, comon, Kenechi, you haven't really presented any kind of evidence for your arguments other then your own opinions. -
this fight is going to be SO AWSOME ANIMATED
-
Now that's just unfair, dammit. In this arc, Chopper showed us how much stamina he has (dozens of shigans), that he can hit you a dozen times in one strike, and that he can turn into a giant, out-of-control monster that can tear apart a CP9, and you want to take away Chopper's credit.
Well, he didn't do it under his own power. He didn't know what would happen, it was almost like a completely different person beat Kumadori.
I mean, I admit that he's tough for standing up after taking Shishi Shigan, but I still contend that he had no chance.
-
@Cap'n:
Well, he didn't do it under his own power. He didn't know what would happen, it was almost like a completely different person beat Kumadori.
I mean, I admit that he's tough for standing up after taking Shishi Shigan, but I still contend that he had no chance.
Not under his own power? It was his rumble balls, his body, and he kind of knew that it was going to happen based on past experience. He just didn't want to do it because he'd be out of control, hence the "I hope no one enters the room." Kind of like a 'forbidden move' in so many other fighting animes.
And I really don't think Chopper stood no chance or was outclassed, his rumble ball issues contributed to his difficulties. Kumadori is an extreme opponent, but I noticed that Kumadori couldn't quite defend himself whenever he used his arm point attacks.
On Kumadori's side though, I acknowldege that he was a damn tough opponent. He probably had enough endurance to last after the first rumble ball. Maybe it would end up going to the 3rd rumble ball anyway.
-
So wait, you tell me that he had it under control with his rumble balls and everything, then you say the only reason he lost was because of his rumble balls.
-
@Cap'n:
So wait, you tell me that he had it under control with his rumble balls and everything, then you say the only reason he lost was because of his rumble balls.
Hahaha, yeah that's kinda true. But I think I meant the side effects vs. the pros of rumble balls. He was losing due to the first rumble ball running out, then the 2nd rumble balls random nature.
But, maybe if he used that first rumble ball better then the fight would have gone better for Chopper. But now that I think of it, maybe Kumadori's endurance would force Chopper to use at least a 2nd rumble ball.
Sorry, I think I'm getting conflicted, these are favoriate characters of mine yet I want to remain fair and balanced and honest.
-
I gotta go with Cap'n Carter on this. No offense to anyone that thinks otherwise, but Chopper didn't win that fight. During the fight, what was the name of the chapter that was the official "fight" chapter? MONSTER vs Kumadori
-
So, it's no one's fault that Kumadori is unconscious right now?
He er… Fell.
No really, Chopper won. No matter what you say, Chopper was the last man standing in that fight. He had to resort to extreme measures to gain his victory. He has to pay a high price for his victory. But there is a victory. Whenever Zoro slices a foe to bits and pieces, no one says he hasn't really won because he used swords. I doubt if anyone claimed Shanks' defeat over the mountain bandits way at the beginning by shooting them wasn't really a defeat. If Don Krieg would win a fight using his poisonous gas, no one would question his victory. But Chopper, who uses his own body as an out-of-control weapon, is supposed to be non-victorious because he wasn't aware? Well, he was aware when he used the third rumble ball. He was aware he would become that loose cannon. He was aware when he used his weapon. -
Chopper won that fight. No questions asked.
-
Back to Sanji, if Jyabura gets up for a second round, what new tricks will Jyabs show us (if any)? Maybe we'll see some new tricks that the zoan fruit is capable of. I mean, Jyabura being a wolf hasn't really given him an edge except for his claws, despite the fact that Lucci said zoan form gives a strength boost.
-
_ luffy fight is so near.. I CANNOT waaaaaaaaaaait.. excited
-
I don't know if Jyabura really should have any tricks. Guess the wolf-thing is mostly a physical expression of his deceptive mentality, like the wolf from Little Red Riding Hood. I really can't think of any features that are own to wolves that could be used in combat. Unless maybe scent marking… But I don't think anyone is eager to see Jyabura urinate on Sanji.
-
He could dry hump Sanji's leg instead if that'd make you feel better?
Besides, if he pissed on it, it'd at least put the fire on it out, and put Sanji back a bit more toward his level :ohmy: