I wonder if Big Mum know the existence of Pandora, we don’t see them together. If she doesn’t know her, it’s quite amazing she made the same homie. If she does, it’s strange she never asked her what happened
Chapter 867: Happy Birthday
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Leaving all criticism aside, I think it's interesting that in Wano Luffy's going to fight toe to toe with someone with the physical properties of Linlin. In fact, thinking about it, Gear Fourth looks like Luffy's version of that "invincible" body.
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What I'm saying is that IF Pudding did in fact alter her memory, it's what we're seeing now. Her perspective of her memory now is that they all disappeared. She may not have always had that thought of them "vanishing" though. She may have come to the realization after looking for them that she did in fact eat them, and decades down the line have Pudding remove those portions of it. So she cuts out the parts of the "film" of her memory, leaving only eating the food, noticing everyone is gone, and being alone.
It is a nice theory but there's a few things that make me think it can't work. The first is their relative ages, Mom being in her 60-70s and Pudding in her twenties (I guess?) and one of her youngest children.
Apart from the whole issue of Mom trusting anyone enough to play with her memories do you think that no-one else would have known or suspected what happened from her behaviour over the decades? Perhaps, if anyone, Pound could know of those differences.
The other is the fact that Mom has her fugues at all. If she has them now and she had them as a five year old then it's highly unlikely she wasn't having blackout fugues, and the resultant memory loss, her entire life. Nobody hinted that they were a recent development so very unlikely to be a result of Pudding meddling with her memories -
What I'm saying is that IF Pudding did in fact alter her memory, it's what we're seeing now. Her perspective of her memory now is that they all disappeared. She may not have always had that thought of them "vanishing" though. She may have come to the realization after looking for them that she did in fact eat them, and decades down the line have Pudding remove those portions of it. So she cuts out the parts of the "film" of her memory, leaving only eating the food, noticing everyone is gone, and being alone.
If Pudding is suppose to have Big Mom believe she did not eat the kid Pudding did a lacking but serviceable job. But if Pudding is supposed to have Big Mom believe that she ate everyone she seems to have done a bad job at it. I find the second unlikely due to how good she performed with Pudding.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Leaving all criticism aside, I think it's interesting that in Wano Luffy's going to fight toe to toe with someone with the physical properties of Linlin. In fact, thinking about it, Gear Fourth looks like Luffy's version of that "invincible" body.
Kaido's has scars, Big Mom doesn't.
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Prediction:
Everything is CP0s fault. Tried to get the children without paying, the freeloaders. Carmel gets heel face turn and passes the fruit to Linlin who fights everyone off.
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Because this is One Piece I'm keeping my mind open about the possibility that something else may have happened. I can't deny though that whats implied made me a little sick to my stomach and I almost cried a little. What a horrible awful way to die and how awful it is for young Linlin to be the cause of all that horror and not even be aware.
How wild would it be if Teach put that cloak over Newgate, cut out his heart and ate it to obtain the quake fruit? Yeash!
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It is a nice theory but there's a few things that make me think it can't work. The first is their relative ages, Mom being in her 60-70s and Pudding in her twenties (I guess?) and one of her youngest children.
Apart from the whole issue of Mom trusting anyone enough to play with her memories do you think that no-one else would have known or suspected what happened from her behaviour over the decades? Perhaps, if anyone, Pound could know of those differences.
The other is the fact that Mom has her fugues at all. If she has them now and she had them as a five year old then it's highly unlikely she wasn't having blackout fugues, and the resultant memory loss, her entire life. Nobody hinted that they were a recent development so very unlikely to be a result of Pudding meddling with her memoriesBig Mom is 68 years old.
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Now they need to figure where she took a dump after the incident and search for the poop; here BM, this is(was) Mother Carmel, yeah, she changed a lot, turn her into a homie and you got;
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I mean considering how dark these implications are and that there is no blood it could be that it's eventually revealed as something else.
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There are good arguments for BM eating the children, but I still don't understand what motivated it. Just… hunger? It did not look like the episode triggered in Elbaf when she defeated the giant.
She was very happy and had all the sweets she wanted, so why go berserk?? -
You know, when you look at the prominent Marines in the series when they were young, a lot of them looked scruffy and not well taken care of. Carmel died, but there's nothing to say the WG didn't just find another person to do the dirty deeds. Makes you wonder how many Marines were basically sold as child soldiers, then brainwashed with the continuous talk about ""Justice" and "Evil".
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I don't think Big Mom ate them. Else she would look like this:
she took them in one bite.
Then their clothes shouldn't be ripped and scattered through the floor.
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she took them in one bite.
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this has all the plot points of a tragic folk, legend or myth
I ended up loving this flashback. It's great. So surreal.
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There are good arguments for BM eating the children, but I still don't understand what motivated it. Just… hunger? It did not look like the episode triggered in Elbaf when she defeated the giant.
She was very happy and had all the sweets she wanted, so why go berserk??She completely lost herself in her happiness and the delicious cake she was eating, she didn't notice the fact she had been chomping down on the furniture around her etc
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So did Blackbeard take a bite out of whitebeard?
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So did Blackbeard take a bite out of whitebeard?
Don't think so. One of the first comments made after BB removed the cloth was that nothing seemed different about their bodies. If Teach had taken a bite or cut his heart out, someone would have noticed.
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I don't think Big Mom ate them. Else she would look like this:
http://i.imgur.com/AX4M3Xo.jpg
Then their clothes shouldn't be ripped and scattered through the floor.
they are so samll she can eat them whole
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There are good arguments for BM eating the children, but I still don't understand what motivated it. Just… hunger? It did not look like the episode triggered in Elbaf when she defeated the giant.
She was very happy and had all the sweets she wanted, so why go berserk??That's a point, too. So far, what triggers BM and makes she loose her mind is hunger, not eating.
In this chapter she apparently blacked out when she was enjoying some sweets, there wasn't any moment when she was craving for food. This doesn't fit anything she has shown before (however, entering a catatonic state while screaming loudly after seeing Mother Carmel's picture being damaged was a different state introduced out of nowhere. This one could be a third).I honestly don't know what to believe right now…
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I'm very much enjoying the cipher pol's being the dickbag CIA to the goody two-shoes FBI of the Marines. Pretty much everyone we've ever seen who has been a part of a cipher pol has been a way more terrible person than any given marine. Even the jerk marines come across as better dudes.
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John must be pretty young then, at least with giant standards.
If he was born surrounded by the Marine/WG doctrine, it would, among other things of course, explain his loyalty towards them
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@.access:
That's a point, too. So far, what triggers BM and makes she loose her mind is hunger, not eating.
In this chapter she apparently blacked out when she was enjoying some sweets, there wasn't any moment when she was craving for food. This doesn't fit anything she has shown before (however, entering a catatonic state while screaming loudly after seeing Mother Carmel's picture being damaged was a different state introduced out of nowhere. This one could be a third).I honestly don't know what to believe right now…
She didn't blacked out. She just hate like a glutton while crying from joy.
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I member we were discussing this fb would last something around 3-4 chaps, so it is quite a surprise that it ended with only 2 chapters, and because of that, I'm giving the benefit of doubt, since this could be a fb based on manipulated memories there was no reason to last longer than this.
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@.access:
That's a point, too. So far, what triggers BM and makes she loose her mind is hunger, not eating.
In this chapter she apparently blacked out when she was enjoying some sweets, there wasn't any moment when she was craving for food. This doesn't fit anything she has shown before (however, entering a catatonic state while screaming loudly after seeing Mother Carmel's picture being damaged was a different state introduced out of nowhere. This one could be a third).I honestly don't know what to believe right now…
She was out of control when she ate semla the first time too
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She was in a feeding frenzy she ate anything in sight without even realizing, geez did you look who thick the table seemed? And there's barely chunks of it left.
By now, the most likely scenario is that she indeed ate them, weather you think is too grim for OP standards is another thing.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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I'm in the camp: Linlin didn't eat anyone.
She loves eating sweet things. She would have realized at some point if she was eating raw human flesh, simply because they don't taste sweet. And we know for a fact that she can differentiate between different kinds of food as she remarked that she was eating the table. The most important information is that she was too focused on eating to realize what was going on around her.
I think that CP0 just did a surprise attack during her birthday party and took everyone by force. Except that you simply cannot take Linlin by force, and because she was so preoccupied by food, she just didn't notice the attack.
Otherwise there was no point in revealing the identity of the Mountain Witch nor her connection to CP0 at that point in time.
I'll also join the believers that none of this flashback seems to be manipulated as it wasn't a flashback from Linlin's point of view. It showed information that she cannot know to begin with (Mountain Witch).
Looking forward to more flashbacks of Big Mom.
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I'm pretty sure that Carmel being a child slave trader was shown so we wouldn't feel bad her if she died and would look like she got her serving of karma. Even so, that was a surprise that I didn't see coming.
The bigger shock came from Linlin possibly EATING CARMEL (and possibly the other kids too) while in her euphoria state! And the thing is it's backed up by the screaming sfx and the fact that Carmel had the DF power first with Linlin having this same ability in present time! Right now, my head's in a swirl from this chapter and maybe Blowfish is right about not being able to accept this info, so I'll let this sit in my head for a while before forming a conclusive opinion.
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I'm in the camp: Linlin didn't eat anyone.
She loves eating sweet things. She would have realized at some point if she was eating raw human flesh, simply because they don't taste sweet. And we know for a fact that she can differentiate between different kinds of food as she remarked that she was eating the table. The most important information is that she was too focused on eating to realize what was going on around her.
I think that CP0 just did a surprise attack during her birthday party and took everyone by force. Except that you simply cannot take Linlin by force, and because she was so preoccupied by food, she just didn't notice the attack.
Otherwise there was no point in revealing the identity of the Mountain Witch nor her connection to CP0 at that point in time.
I'll also join the believers that none of this flashback seems to be manipulated as it wasn't a flashback from Linlin's point of view. It showed information that she cannot know to begin with (Mountain Witch).
Looking forward to more flashbacks of Big Mom.
at least the CP0 saved/kidnapped the kids, Carmel is pretty much dead.
seems fishy how we got to see Carmel's clothing, but not the shades of the fat kid, or the crown of the little prince in the ground. -
I think it's pretty obvious now how Devil Fruits are inherited. You have to basically EAT the person to get their power. Thus how Big Mom got Carmel's DF. This also finally reveals what Blackbeard did to Whitebeard under that dark cloak. He took a chunk out of the guy (or maybe drank his blood). It's been a secret for so long because no one in their right mind is gonna dare cannibalize a person – no one except a sick fuck like Blackbeard.
It's dark, but I love that Oda is going this route.
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I think it's heavily implied that LinLin's missing a good chunk of her memory from that day. That whole scene seems "edited" for some reason, BM just devouring the whole party instantly feels… weird to say the least. Something else happened there, I'm 90% sure.
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@The:
died and would look like she got her serving of karma.
That's why she is called Karma-l (translators should check her spelling again), I read through the whole thread and nobody made that joke before. Is it so bad?
Gruesome events for little big mom though, she didn't understand the death of Jarl, her family is gone on her birthday. Regardless what happened I feel sorry for poor LinLin now. Thanks Odamna. I see myself out…
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"Orphans work well as secret agents"
I say this three
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are these three;
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So…
a few things:- i just started reading the promised neverland and now we get this chapter? lol
- where do you see blood on the scene? i only see dark tattered cloth.
- i too want to believe that those children are at least related to the party guests.
I mean look at that:
! http://i.imgur.com/mvDH2lT.png
panda girl and the princess could be their kids for example, and i'm not saying they're all right but some of these are too similar to just be coincidences dont you think?also what about the giants? the vanished too or did they leave after building the house?Edit: okay seems like they left.
the island looks like its really totland, by the way, thats nice.My guess is they are totally unrelated biologically. However, as, of course, their resembling clothing cannot be coincidence, especially looking at the crown or the panda hat, I think that BM pleaded them, or better said demanded them to dress themselves that way. As she never got over their sudden disappearance. Similarly how she demanded Pudding to wear a specific wedding dress. (That memory from pudding was genuine and not somewhat related to her acting, right?)
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Again, no one has yet to explain what an adolescent Pudding would gain from erasing memories Big Mom is already not even privy to.
I'm loving how much people are disturbed by this though, we're making up any ol excuse even if doesn't make a lick of sense. There are clearly little pools of blood on the ground , at least two. You can tell because it's smeared around the edges. Clothes don t smear…
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Every single one of these kids would be around Big Mom's age (aproximately 70 years old) if they are still alive. But alas, the implications of what transpired during that scene are clear to me. The only one that has a chance of coming back is Carmel herself due to her DF ability.
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Every single one of these kids would be around Big Mom's age (aproximately 70 years old) if they are still alive. But alas, the implications of what transpired during that scene are clear to me. The only one that has a chance of coming back is Carmel herself due to her DF ability.
wtf, that's the reason she's the most confirmed as dead, same df can't exists twice at the same time.
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@The:
I'm pretty sure that Carmel being a child slave trader was shown so we wouldn't feel bad her if she died and would look like she got her serving of karma. Even so, that was a surprise that I didn't see coming.
The bigger shock came from Linlin possibly EATING CARMEL (and possibly the other kids too) while in her euphoria state! And the thing is it's backed up by the screaming sfx and the fact that Carmel had the DF power first with Linlin having this same ability in present time! Right now, my head's in a swirl from this chapter and maybe Blowfish is right about not being able to accept this info, so I'll let this sit in my head for a while before forming a conclusive opinion.
Is there really SFX that means screaming ???
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Well, well…still under the impression that this arc has many layers of lies and truth mixed in with the events transpiring. I thoroughly enjoyed the chapter.
I am not sure if this is the end of Cabbage cover story, but the idea of getting 3-4 pages worth for each captain is really exciting. I am amazed by how much a character can be elaborated on just using the cover stories.
There goes our chances for at least one of the giant captains to show up again. I would not be surprised if when we get to Elbaf, Beardhill is on his death bed, but still gets to meet the crew and we get pieces of information on whatever is the hot topic at the time.
Caramel being the previous user of the soul fruit is quite interesting. We see that Pandora is with her lighting up her cigarette, so we'll have to see where did Pandora go, or if Linlin just called her Prometheus instead. Now, we finally have an answer as to how at least one of the homies were created. And that the sun is a ~ball of fire~. Jajajaja. Caramel is so sneaky, trying to pass on her ability as an intervention of God. This answers the reason she had been basked when she rescued the giants. To find out, it was only a way to infiltrate Elbaf. I do not think I expected Caramel to be evil just a flawed character[not badly written, just naive]. It makes much sense that her parenting skills were non-existent.
With the current development, the connections that Bonney could have to Mother Caramel can be pinned on Bonney being a child slave, whom which was sold off to the Government. However, the speculation on her connection to Big Mom has gone through so many loops that I would not mind if she did not have any connection at all. I just love that once the cat was out of the bag, the Mountain Witch cannot resist showing her evil smile.
I guess the following would be the ~meat~ of the chapter. We get to find out the potential inspiration on WCI's design and from where did Linlin get the idea of a tea party. But ouf, so many possibilities if we combine each and every element. So, we are to imply that Linlin ate everyone. The lack of blood anywhere is surprising to say the least, but let's say she just ate them whole. The only clothes left over are Caramel's, as I mentioned before, none of the kids distinguishable items can be seen. I am just glad that we are on present day, next chapter should be exciting.
The rest borders on fantasy:
1. Jokingly I have been thinking of Ginyu in regards to the events at the end of the chapter. I guess the comparison is kinda wrong, because I was only focusing on the consciousness transfer of it and not the swapping. Could Mother Caramel have transferred her soul into Big Mom?
2. For the most part, I always thought as a wasted opportunity that Pudding did not have multiple personalities, however if the soul transfer is a thing. Could Big Mom have two entities within her? And how would this affect the story, because we know that "linlin is a kind girl".
3. The reason on thinking about this, is because we saw Pandora being born, and at the same time Linlin confirmed that her main three homies are from her soul.
4. Obtaining devil fruit powers through cannibalism is something I would love to see, I would be interested to see how it develops beyond this.
5. If we take into consideration awakening, I thought it would be interesting if Tottoland was an illusion. Something where Pudding uses her ability to make everyone believe the reality she is constructing. However, there is so many ways this idea can be broken apart that I discarded as soon as she started crying.
6. IFF Caramel indeed do a soul transfer, and there are two personalities within Linlin, then it makes sense that the flashback involved perspectives that should have not been known to Linlin. Which brings again the idea that Pudding could have manipulated her memories at Linlin's request, or maybe at Caramel-in-Linlin, so Big Mom would be easier to manipulate.–- Update From New Post Merge ---
I'm loving how much people are disturbed by this though, we're making up any ol excuse even if doesn't make a lick of sense. There are clearly little pools of blood on the ground , at least two. You can tell because it's smeared around the edges. Clothes don t smear…
If you are talking about page 14, those are Mother's clothes. There is actually no blood around.
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wtf, that's the reason she's the most confirmed as dead, same df can't exists twice at the same time.
I'm just going to say Carmel's soul lives within Linlin.
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This post is deleted!
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Why does the CP0 knew Carmal but never used that knowledge against a rising Yonko like, well, Luffy does right know.
There is a possibility that, with growing old, BM became a real threat to her family and islands because her flashbacks to this traumatic event became worse. And then Pudding with her ability appeared and is basically in control of a Yonko because her family is in her debt (aside from controling their memories too).
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Why does the CP0 knew Carmal but never used that knowledge against a rising Yonko like, well, Luffy does right know.
As it was said in this chapter they don't really care about anything beyond what the world nobles desire/need.
And what do they care about what pirates do outside of the established world.
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I won't add anything to discussion, but there's definitely something more going on then Linlin eating everyone accidentally. There is no reason at all to reveal Caramel as slave seller and about to make one last trade only for her to die like this moments later. "Oda did it so we wouldn't feel bad" argument doesn't work simply because the kids are innocent, so we still have all the reason to feel bad, and it doesn't address Caramel willing to quit the business. I'm not saying Big Mom didn't eat anyone, I'm just sure we didn't see the whole story.
And about SBS question, we need to remember that Oda refused to confirm Zeff being the one to teach Sanji his chivalry back in the days (I still think that the way Oda handled it is weird).
BTW, the finish of this flashback is so polarizing that we totally should do a bet thread with a poll.
EDIT:
@Koliber what sbs question?
The one about what happens when you eat a devil fruit user.
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@Koliber what sbs question?
I think Oda wants to show us that BigMum is a unknown quantitiy which cant be tamed and is a thread to everybody
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As it was said in this chapter they don't really care about anything beyond what the world nobles desire/need.
And what do they care about what pirates do outside of the established world.
That would mean she really is too strong for them, despite the fact Carmal said she is way worth any other child in existence. Do they fear to bested by a 6 year old? They didn't even tried.
"We only take the others, just leave her there become a renegade/pirate, thanks, I'm going back to hybris town." (if the CP0 storyline appears to be true that is)
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I member we were discussing this fb would last something around 3-4 chaps, so it is quite a surprise that it ended with only 2 chapters, and because of that, I'm giving the benefit of doubt, since this could be a fb based on manipulated memories there was no reason to last longer than this.
The only way we'll see more is if it turns out Pudding tampered with the memory and she admits it, which would then open a window into what really happened. Don't see what the point of revealing that she already changed memories of her family would be, if it doesn't become significant in any way. There's also the fact her cafe is called Caramel. There's all these small hints that are bound to mean something, but won't mean much if it turns out BM just ate everyone.
How come nobody was eaten during her rampage on Elbaf? There were plenty of people lying around, and she was in berserk mode. Yet nobody was eaten. But now we have her eating happily and I'm supposed to buy that crap that she just plain ate all the children and Caramel. Don't be absurd. Not you Monquito, I'm speaking generally :ninja:.
Just wait and see, CP0 had something to do with it. There could be plenty of reasons why everything was left a mess. One of them could be Caramel using her ability to fight off an attack. BM being practically invulnerable would explain why she's the only one left. There are other things still unexplained, yeah. And it only works if Pudding altered or cut out her memories.
I've been feeling from the start that Oda is pulling one big red herring with BM and her behavior. I certainly haven't seen many qualities that would make her such a great leader and a force capable of altering the balance in the world. It's like something happened in the mean time.
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Is there really SFX that means screaming ???
In the Jaimini's Box translation (it's not noted in MS) on Pg.13 on the bottom left panel, it's noted that there was screaming (the "AAAAAAAAAAH!!").
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@Kaido:
I thought it was alright, if a little hamfisted in execution.
It really wasn't. Waiting 18 years to reveal such important life lesson was given to one of the main characters by their main mentor makes no sense at all. Especially that we see one of the Zeff's man behaving quite brutally toward a woman (not hitting her, but still forcibly removing her necklace while trying to take away her purse) with Zeff not caring at all, yet beating the crap out of the one who ate somebody's food.