^ She herself stated that she wants to be PK "this time around" and that Roger beat her to it so I'd go with yes (unless this was an anime-only thing. I tend to mix some events in both)
Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !
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Big Mom definitely does want to become Pirate King. And so does Kaido, considering that he's pursuing Momonosuke's clan to find out a secret about Raftel. What makes Luffy different from them is that he isn't interested in ruling over territory or amassing armies, he just wants to be a free man.
Big Mom's status after this arc is definitely gonna be interesting. She can't ally with Luffy for obvious reasons. I could see her possibly giving up on her dream if she finds out that Mother Carmel was a fraud, but I find it doubtful that she'll fully maintain a truce with Luffy especially as he draws closer to being the Pirate King. Especially given how conniving and willing to backstab people she is. If she does go down, she won't fall before Kaido. The fall of a Yonko is something that'll have a massive impact on the world and the Straw Hats and co. taking out Kaido would lose its impact since there'd already be the fallout over the loss of Big Mom. I don't stick as closely to Luffy's word as some people do but I think his declaration that he'll take down Big Mom after Kaido will be one that is kept.
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@uniaka:
Does she even want to become pirate king? Because her dreams seem unrelated like the giants family or land full of all races, same like kaidou and wb, she doesn't seem to show any real interest in PK title. Now that you mention it, does anyone besides luffy show any real interest in PK title?
Blackbeard and Doflamingo. Also Kidd, although Law also appeared to be interested in that before the timeskip.
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@S.C.:
I think Cracker and Brulee might be twins. Same hair color and similar facial structures. About the same birth order, too.
I don't speak Japanese, but didn't the SBS question asker determine that K/D/O were triplets because of how they used honorifics? Did Brulee use the same honorifics with Cracker?
It'd make sense, because the Seducing Woods would be their domain: where noobies go to die.
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@uniaka:
Does she even want to become pirate king? Because her dreams seem unrelated like the giants family or land full of all races, same like kaidou and wb, she doesn't seem to show any real interest in PK title. Now that you mention it, does anyone besides luffy show any real interest in PK title?
Pretty much every important pirate captain has shown interest in it even if it doesn't mix with their goals. You can very well find a captain that want to bake the greatest cookie but will also want to be pirate king.
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Pretty much every important pirate captain has shown interest in it even if it doesn't mix with their goals. You can very well find a captain that want to bake the greatest cookie but will also want to be pirate king.
Whitebeard had no interest in the title. Buggy has actually shown no interest in it at all and has much more actively sought Captain John's treasure. Shanks doesn't seem to think it's a pressing matter. Rayleigh, while not a captain, certainly knows where One Piece is and how to get it, but hasn't gone back for it.
Seems like the folks that actually have an inkling of what the treasure might be or the journey it entails have no interest.
(Also none of the Fishman pirate captains expressed on camera interest. Brook was a captain before that title was a thing. I don't think Hancock has shown any interest.)
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Hell, Hancock and the Kuja are the most pirate-like pirates in the series. They're pretty much just raiding ships for the benefit of their island.
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I cannot wait to see all the stuff Greg finds/expands on the latest chapter
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Greg how does what oda did with katakuri change your opinions, if at all, upon how luffy amd katakuri will be at the end of the fight. Oda rarely humanizes his antagonists or has you feel sorry for them during a battle so does this mean he wont get luffy beating the crap out him completely?
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If anything it gives Luffy permission to trounce him into next week.
Specifically because of the relationship they share now, anything less than a full beatdown would be disrespecting their bond of being locked in battle.
But that's not to say that he will, due to circumstance, just that he absolutely can.
If you're looking for 'similar but different' cases there's the instances of Bellamy v.2 which humanized him during the fight, and Kaku whom we hated hating.
Both of them had their stuff served to them.
It's two men in a knock-down drag-out fisticuffs a la Z. That didn't end with Luffy trouncing Z but only b/c they both exhausted each other and Luffy fought until he was satisfied. That could happen here but I feel, in the comic, Oda is more willing to give us an ending that 'feels satisfying' rather than gives us something to ponder over but there's a first time for everything.
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I gotta know how you feel about Katakuri's development. It's probably the most divisive moment in a while.
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I am a bit upset about how fast Kata changes his mind.
First, he wants to get rid of Luffy ASAP and then he wants an all-fair fight and even gives himself a fatal wound.
First, he doesn't want anyone to see his mouth and then he uses it to shock the bystanders (who then took Pictures, what a-holes!)
Was this all Luffy's doing?
The last Panels have been epic nonetheless. -
@Kai:
I don't speak Japanese, but didn't the SBS question asker determine that K/D/O were triplets because of how they used honorifics? Did Brulee use the same honorifics with Cracker?
It'd make sense, because the Seducing Woods would be their domain: where noobies go to die.
Yup, they are triplets, check sbs 87
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The Anime is the Thing that is benefitting the most of this arc. Some of the recent episodes have been really entertaining (maybe also b/c I don't watch it regularly These days).
To Name a few:
The rescuing Mission of Brook
and the "fight" between Sanji and Luffy. I'd describe this "fight" with 2 words: intense and emotional. -
yeah but also a lot of nonsense fighting by luffy and fodders
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No new charlotte since Smoothies full sisters. Unless Big mom double dipped on long legs, possible, but unlikelly.
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yeah but also a lot of nonsense fighting by luffy and fodders
you're right,
but on the other Hand another Scene was impressive, where the enraged army passed the Vinsmokes' carriage.
I thought:"Holy crap, even if most of 'em are fodder, These are really a $hit-load lot of People goin to Luffy!" -
I am a bit upset about how fast Kata changes his mind.
But they've been at this for hours.
First, he wants to get rid of Luffy ASAP and then he wants an all-fair fight and even gives himself a fatal wound.
You're suggesting that he shouldn't change his mind when he sees that his opponent -whom he's come to respect through battle- has been placed at a disadvantage?
Most people want the characters in the series they read to be more realistic and not simply caricatures of humans with unwavering robotic single-mindedness.
You'd prefer it if he was more like that?
Same reason he's used his face.
Luffy has literally turned what Katakuri accepts as facts of difference in ability on their head and that is affecting him on numerous levels.
It's almost as if….they might not end up being enemies after the battle...
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It's almost as if….they might not end up being enemies after the battle...
Sounds like your happy about this development, any chance you will go deeper with a stream (like on Saturday with the release) or an article on onepeice.com ?
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I personally believe Oda went overboard with this 'seeing the future a bit' thing.When both users are using it(like what it is turning out to be),then the end result seems to be dodging the attack of the opponent as best as possible which is what a normal fight is supposed to be….hence nothing special.Of course either Luffy will anticipate Kata's move but Kata would fail to do the same or they both will hit simultaneously but Luffy's hit being stronger one will overpower Kata.Luffy had done it many a times before. Basically Luffy is getting out with a higher level of COO from the fight.
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I personally believe Oda went overboard with this 'seeing the future a bit' thing.When both users are using it(like what it is turning out to be),then the end result seems to be dodging the attack of the opponent as best as possible which is what a normal fight is supposed to be….hence nothing special.Of course either Luffy will anticipate Kata's move but Kata would fail to do the same or they both will hit simultaneously but Luffy's hit being stronger one will overpower Kata.Luffy had done it many a times before. Basically Luffy is getting out with a higher level of COO from the fight.
Basic COO is sending the intent of an oncoming attack but it still limited. Hence why luffy managed to hit enel using gomu no hanabi. Future gives a clear picture of the future
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I'm a firm believer Kata is going to be a future ally, in some way or another. Oda is giving him way too much attention and potential to waste in just this arc. After all, attracting all kinds of allies is one of Luffy's strengths.
Also, fuck foresight. I'm gonna be missing Luffy dodging attacks using his quick reflexes. Sensing/reading someone's intent up to a limit I can live with. Foresight crosses a line a little too much. Especially when you give it to the main character. It changes everything. Or at least it should, if the author doesn't conveniently shut it off when it isn't needed.
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I'm a firm believer Kata is going to be a future ally, in some way or another. Oda is giving him way too much attention and potential to waste in just this arc.
Also, fuck foresight. I'm gonna be missing Luffy dodging attack using his quick reflexes. Sensing/reading someone's intent up to a limit I can live with. Foresight crosses a line a little too much. Especially when you give it to the main character. It changes everything. Or at least it should, if the author doesn't conveniently shut it off when it isn't needed.
Well, as much as it would make it unnecessary, Rayleigh said some people are able to use future sight, so we are probably going to see other people use it, Katakuri was just the first.
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But they've been at this for hours.
You're suggesting that he shouldn't change his mind when he sees that his opponent -whom he's come to respect through battle- has been placed at a disadvantage?
Most people want the characters in the series they read to be more realistic and not simply caricatures of humans with unwavering robotic single-mindedness.
You'd prefer it if he was more like that?
Same reason he's used his face.
Luffy has literally turned what Katakuri accepts as facts of difference in ability on their head and that is affecting him on numerous levels.
It's almost as if….they might not end up being enemies after the battle...
Plus its not like chapter 894 will presumably have him holding back
But greg I gotta say a lot of people, especially the youtube folks, are saying luffy hasnt been outclassed like this since marineford and itd be an asspull if he wins, reminiscent of some of the batttles in fairy tail and that jazz. Also saying that katakuri noy using his spear is him holding back, that if doflamingo was wailing on luffy like this for this amount of time he'd be dead.
Do you think oda has made katakuri look too strong since he's hit luffy probably 100x more than luffy hit him, even if luffy's attacks in G4 were brutal. I feel like he'll barely win and thats fine by me but do you think oda gave him too much. I know you dont focus on power levels but if someone mentioned chopper by himself beating jack in wano it'd sound a bit silly you know. I dont think its as bad as people are complaining but shouldnt luffy get in some more hits.
What im hoping is a possible G4 form that amps up his speed can cover the gap because rayleigh mentioned 2 years isnt enough for luffy to catch up and I feel oda isnt gonna have luffy achieve it for hype reasons
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@K.:
Well, as much as it would make it unnecessary, Rayleigh said some people are able to use future sight, so we are probably going to see other people use it, Katakuri was just the first.
Second.
Enel did it first, he just called it Mantra.
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The only future Enel could see was the one he could read from someone's thoughts. Katakuri has him beaten in that aspect of Observation.
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@Long:
Plus its not like chapter 894 will presumably have him holding back
But greg I gotta say a lot of people, especially the youtube folks, are saying luffy hasnt been outclassed like this since marineford and itd be an asspull if he wins, reminiscent of some of the batttles in fairy tail and that jazz. Also saying that katakuri noy using his spear is him holding back, that if doflamingo was wailing on liffy like this for thepis amount of time he'd be dead.
Do you think oda has made katakuri look too strong since he's hit luffy probably 100x more than luffy hit him, even if luffy's attacks in G4 were brutal. I feel like he'll barely win and thats fine by me but do you think oda gave him too much. I know you dont focus on power levels but if someone mentioned chopper by himself beating jack in wano it'd sound a bit silly you know. I dont think its as bad as people are complaining but shouldnt luffy get in some more hits.
What im hoping is a possible G4 form that amps up his speed can cover the gap because rayleigh mentioned 2 years isnt enough for luffy to catch up and I feel oda isnt gonna have luffy achieve it for hype reasons
I really doubt Greg is worried about how Youtubers feel. Those guys have to shout outrage or awesome no matter what, to get their views and their cash. They're hardly the beacons of objective analysis. Plus, Luffy is the hero and his greatest asset is his grit. I'd agree that he hasn't been this outclassed since Marineford, but he had been that outclassed before. Ie, in the initial fights with Crocodile, CP9, Moria, Kizaru, and much more so against Aokiji the first time. He got his ass beat about as bad against Lucci, too, if not worse, considering his ultimate rokushiki technique and how it was supposed to damage the body.
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Second.
Enel did it first, he just called it Mantra.
I took that as basic obervation, but i have not read Skypeia in a while.
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I really doubt Greg is worried about how Youtubers feel. Those guys have to shout outrage or awesome no matter what, to get their views and their cash. They're hardly the beacons of objective analysis. Plus, Luffy is the hero and his greatest asset is his grit. I'd agree that he hasn't been this outclassed since Marineford, but he had been that outclassed before. Ie, in the initial fights with Crocodile, CP9, Moria, Kizaru, and much more so against Aokiji the first time. He got his ass beat about as bad against Lucci, too, if not worse, considering his ultimate rokushiki technique and how it was supposed to damage the body.
i know he's said he doesnt care at all, but I feel like its the same on some of the forums. People are saying what a lot of us said about "there's no way luffy can beat big mom here" but about katakuri. Oda has been good at balancing fights. I never felt like luffy getting beat so brutally was just a front before he kicks ass, here katakuri has beat arguably worse than any villain he defeated in the end. Oda has pointed it out that the COO gap is such luffy is having trouble with his speed so I feel if snakeman gives him a quickness boost, him winning that way makes sense.
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Part of me is wondering how japan feels about luffy winning though. Because oda has basically shown luffy (while not in gear 4) below katakuri in every single way, dude even got conquerors haki and red hawk too. I figured maybe theres some people there who if not dismissive of him winning are skeptical as to how
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He's the hero. He's SUPPOSED to overcome a villain that's stronger than him. That's like, the entire point.
Except when the point is that the enemy is actually weak, like with Krieg or Bellamy, or where Fishman Island was a stomping grounds for showing everyone's timeskip strength.
But usually the enemy is supposed to be stronger, that's what makes the hero persevering and winning an actual accomplishment.
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Exactly, how is the important part of that argument. But, people are corrupted by their expectations, the hype of their imaginations, and start waiting for their vision to be the same of the authors. It is an ego thing.
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Second.
Enel did it first, he just called it Mantra.
Might as well toss in Sandersonia in there since she was clearly seeing Luffy's attacks come before they hit.
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hence nothing special.
Nah. The purpose of this would be to give Luffy 'Monster' status in the New World.
Remember.
Luffy is going for The Pirate King.
Which is to say BIGGER THAN YONKOU.
He can't be bigger or better than a Yonkou yet.
In ways he can, but not flat-out.
This is because Oda understands his power balance and its effect on the story very well. I hesitate to say he's almost as skilled as Togashi when it comes to understanding and handling power balance.
-Say what you will about the man (and I encourage anyone to do so ^o^) he KNOWS POWER BALANCE-
So, as we've known from the moment Katakuri was solidified as Luffy's 'boss battle', this puts Luffy at (and possibly a notch above) Yonkou officer ranks.
Which is…exactly where he should be at this point among his crew, in the New World and in the story.
These are the kinds of issues that Kubo couldn't handle with Bleach and because of it messed over the story.
So no, despite them being on equal ground in this fight, the fact that Luffy comes out of this with something and topples a Yonkou officer allows us to believe that he's not going from defeating an uber-Shichibukai to suddenly toppling a Yonkou.
It's an elegant natural flow of the story which Oda understands and is deliberately portraying for that reason at the top of the mountain of reasons for this battle.
Naturally I'm not saying one shouldn't critique the battle or it doesn't have unsuccessful aspects. I'm just saying that the battle overall serves a bigger purpose than just being 'a battle' and that should be considered when seeing what gains we as readers and Luffy comes out of it with.
But, people are corrupted by their expectations, the hype of their imaginations, and start waiting for their vision to be the same of the authors. It is an ego thing.
wipes tear There is still hope for fandoms.
Especially when you give it to the main character. It changes everything. Or at least it should, if the author doesn't conveniently shut it off when it isn't needed.
It's definitely a slippery slope. But luckily there are different flavors of it as we've seen in the past and Rayleigh just told us. Actually, my next piece for the official site is about differences in CoO and various reasons why they might exist.
You have to admit, like a good deal of Haki, part of it Oda is learning alongside of us, but he's also doing a fairly decent job of covering his bases as of late.
But greg I gotta say a lot of people, especially the youtube folks, are saying luffy hasnt been outclassed like this since marineford and itd be an asspull if he wins, reminiscent of some of the batttles in fairy tail and that jazz.
They don't know One Piece.
Part of me is wondering how japan feels about luffy winning though.
OP's rise has cooled in Japan.
But that's not to say more people don't like it.
I think the most divisive thing Oda did was kill Ace which took away some fans.
DR was also VERY LONG which put off casual fans JUST LIKE Skypiea put off casual fans.
Frame of reference for this.
Back in 2005 I was talking with exchange students from Japan about One Piece and one of them said, "I liked it but SKypiea was just so long. It's really long."
TWO THOUSAND AND FIVE.
THIRTEEN YEARS AGO.
Some also don't like how the focus has shifted to other characters. They prefer the core crew.
I feel the same way! But it's not enough to sour me on the series.But folks, this constant week to week roller coaster of "I HATE THIS SERIES!" to "THIS IS THE BEST!" is all a ploy by kids with zero accountability who choose money and fame over understanding and/or respecting the series.
That roller coaster doesn't even exist in Japan.
Fans read One Piece and they can't wait to see what comes next week.
It's awesome.
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So curious what is the take?
Katakuri weakened himself and that's why Luffy has a chance?
Or Katakuri brought the fight back to where it was before and in the greater scheme of things, both wounds are insignificant to what the outcome of the battle would be. It is just a way for the fight to have an end faster (still taking hours), if not Luffy and Katakuri could maybe go on for days?
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Well of course this is the thing that bridges the gap thematically. But despite hype engines roaring loudly I feel the very choreography of everything happened is such that oda wants us to doubt this outcome more so than anything since rob lucci where he fought so hard he couldnt move afterwards, and given sanji's desires it makes sense he will be completely off.
However in that fight vs lucci we saw clearly that G2 had a pretty good effect on Lucci, the issue was luffy couldnt hold it at full strength and that is where lucci did his damage to luffy, it was a see-saw of sorts. Back and forth until the very end.
So comparing this to luffy-katakuri, oda has shown us how katakuri can do luffy's techniques better than him in certain case, he's also got the red hawk, and even conqueror's haki. It's a mirror match so kind of expected here but the first half of the fight is katakuri smacking luffy around, merienda time and luffy gets some hits in when katakuri is flustered, he escapes. He comes back and we luffy adapting to it slowly to the point where he is dodging attacks and matching some of katakuri's blows but still getting pummeled alot. Gets stabbed by a "looked way worse than it was at first" stab and katakuri retaliates by doing the same amount of damage. Luffy fights for a few more hours and appears to be looking good but gets his ass more kicked as his stamina drains.
Katakuri at his best has been hit one single time by luffy. This hasnt been close at all. Luffy has been growing super fast but even with haki zenki boosts his CoO wont match katakuri's enough to allow him to get any hits / dodge for a really long amount of time. *
The underlying message oda has tried to show us here, luffy is outclassed in every single way expect his grit and durability being abnormally high, we arent used to luffy being so helpless in a fight and coming through it. So oda is really hammering that point that katakuri is stronger than luffy but through his hus character evolvement and luffy's grit / CoO improvement luffy has survived long enough to beat him through G4.
I have no issues with that admittedly myself but katakuri has brutalized luffy more times than anyone else as far as i can recall and people are trying to throw in a white towel for him apollo creed vs drago style. But im fine as long as luffy is basically on E after this fight or of its a ace-jinbe end, where katakuri falls unconcious first and luffy gets near immobilized. Luffy winning isnt something ive been against
- This is where say a speedier form would realistically bridge the gap realistically
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Oda's literally telling us Katakuri's thought process. I dunno how people fail to see it when he's basically telling us the whole time.
At first he toys with him.
Then Luffy pissed him off.
But even through that Luffy persevered and he started to get an inkling of respect from Katakuri.
And also concern.
But having someone reach his level was equal parts disturbing BUT ALSO fascinating.
It's almost as if Katakuri WANTS Luffy to dodge him.
As soon as he starts to gain some serious respect for Luffy, Luffy is been subjected to debilitating unfair attacks (WHICH BY THE WAY ARE ALSO TRAINING LUFFY IF YOU HADN'T NOTICED) and Katakuri loses his respect for him, ONLY TO FIND OUT THAT WAS THE RESULT OF DIRTY WORK is why that TOTALLY broke Katakuri. He's not just mad at his sister, he's pissed off at himself. Since he believes Luffy is something to respect, that part of him that doubted Luffy is a COMPLETE embarrassment to him, hence the self-inflicted wound to bring them back to so-called 'equal' ground condition-wise if not ability-wise.
And that's why this is great. Because it's been an uphill battle for Luffy.
Like we knew it had to be if Luffy is to stand his ground.
That's not 'asspull' if you literally give us a letter of invitation to the 'Luffy Must Improve Over the Course of This Battle Gala and Ball'.
Katakuri at his best has been hit one single time by luffy. This hasnt been close at all. Luffy has been growing super fast but even with haki zenki boosts his CoO wont match katakuri's enough to allow him to get any hits / dodge for a really long amount of time.
Which is why I've said from the start.
Luffy needs to learn a new way of fighting.
That doesn't mean besting his CoO.
That doesn't mean a power-up.
That means a new way of using what we know he can do.
Oh look…Gear 4th Snake Man. A new way of using what we know he can do.
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I think Luffy is doing just fine after beating younger brotherS, some army plebs, all before taking Mochi boy on.
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And not eating for hours now after his mochi binge. (which isn't meat btw)
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Greg, do you think there's more to Luffy and Katakuri knocking out the gallery with their CoC? It just feels like Oda is deliberately making it so there is not a single eyewitness to the conclusion of Luffy vs Katakuri fight. Since it's pretty much guaranteed that Luffy and Katakuri will be on good terms after this fight and that Luffy knows how much Katakuri's younger siblings look up to him, I don't think it's out of character for Luffy to save Katakuri's face by pretending that Katakuri came out the winner of the fight even though the opposite happened.
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Yeah, that's a really important point.
And it could turn out that way.
Personally, and I may have jotted this down somewhere months ago, I think for the outcome to have the needed effect on the family as a whole, someone or something may secretly witness it. The only thing more impressive than gaining Katakuri as a rival (and if it ends on 'friendly' terms they will be rivals) would be if someone secretly witnesses a Luffy victory and then notes how Luffy understands the respect the family has has for him, and doesn't make a big stink over it. That individual would become a much-needed ally, more than Katakuri can be as a rival.
They can see what kind of person Luffy REALLY is and, perhaps, silence any kind of dissent. Say, regarding the tamatebako incident which has recently been divulged to interested parties.
Granted we already have Pekoms but it's a big family and will need a lot of wrapping up.
Not saying that will happen, but it's the kind of development that not only tugs the heart-strings but also makes Oda's job easier.
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At this point so much reputation has been put at stake, damaged even, that it would seem like character regression that in the end it does matter to preserve Katakuri's fake image.
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And not eating for hours now after his mochi binge. (which isn't meat btw)
Katakuri even regained strength, he did say sugar is his source of power.
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Luffy is always someone that takes down a party down to its core. From their overall plans, to the type of characters they may be. That is what his pure honest character manages, influencing people along the way. If the Big Mom pirates should be good pirates but are only what they are today because of a misguided ideology that has carried Big Mom since her childhood. Then Luffy might not have defeated an emperor. But Luffy partakes in the disillusion of her entire life perspective therefore defeating Big Mom the tyrant to bring forth Big Mom the gentle, as Lola envisions her in her own naive way.
I just think that the entire process happening right now would be such a huge change. Would this affect the taxation that is applied in Tottoland, are the citizens okay because they actually help by giving soul to soldiers while they are under Big Mom's protection.
The Big Mom pirates, minus Mama, who knows what she ends up doing at the end of the story, will have remnants, the same way Whitebeard will have some and maybe Rockstar from the Red Hair pirates as he remembers that his captain said: his life is more important than pride and he escapes the massacre. So in the end they will all join under Luffy's banner. But right now, it also works that Luffy does all this to start a change that takes the entire rest of the series to realize, as he escapes. The Big Mom pirates still wanting to enact revenge, but with so much of their power structure potentially dismantled. They will have a hard time to retaliate, not to mention if Morgans is half the journalist he says he is, he will write about what happened, at least in comic form and he will start chasing Luffy for the biggest scoop. As Jimbe said, he doesn't have anything to fear if he follows the future pirate king he can publish whatever he wants, even about the Void Century.
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At this point so much reputation has been put at stake, damaged even, that it would seem like character regression that in the end it does matter to preserve Katakuri's fake image.
Depends doesn't it?
Flampe is actually a big deal.
There was a point of all the mooks taking pix etc.
That's…going to come back somehow.
And it's either going to be a change of heart in Flampe or a change of heart in Katakuri about himself.
Will Flampe awake and witness the victory?
Will Katakuri be open about his image?
It can go either way.
We need to think what's at stake in either event.
If Katakuri reveals a loss/image, it might a double-punch that cripples the family in an overly cruel way.
(Yes, they're largely assholes, we get it, but like putting a bear and a wolf in a cage to stop them fighting, they're assholes that mean well but need direction)
I could see, for instance, Katakuri opening up about his features, but the outcome of the match (let's say if they BOTH win i.e. Luffy gets KO'd but Katakuri lands on his back?) is skillfully kept under wraps.
At any rate, I can see the pathways leading to different outcomes but at this point, it still all depends on:
HOW THINGS WILL END WITH THE FAMILY
Which is huge. If we can get a glimpse of the answer to that then everything else will fall into place.
Where I stand on that issue is largely where I was months back with the family being on the side of the Strawhats with Mom potentially being antagonistic after an initial warming.
But...if we get into memory stuff in this arc, she could definitely warm the same as the family at this stage.
I just don't know if that's the most overall interesting development for the story at this point.
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Oda's literally telling us Katakuri's thought process. I dunno how people fail to see it when he's basically telling us the whole time.
At first he toys with him.
Then Luffy pissed him off.
But even through that Luffy persevered and he started to get an inkling of respect from Katakuri.
And also concern.
But having someone reach his level was equal parts disturbing BUT ALSO fascinating.
It's almost as if Katakuri WANTS Luffy to dodge him.
As soon as he starts to gain some serious respect for Luffy, Luffy is been subjected to debilitating unfair attacks (WHICH BY THE WAY ARE ALSO TRAINING LUFFY IF YOU HADN'T NOTICED) and Katakuri loses his respect for him, ONLY TO FIND OUT THAT WAS THE RESULT OF DIRTY WORK is why that TOTALLY broke Katakuri. He's not just mad at his sister, he's pissed off at himself. Since he believes Luffy is something to respect, that part of him that doubted Luffy is a COMPLETE embarrassment to him, hence the self-inflicted wound to bring them back to so-called 'equal' ground condition-wise if not ability-wise.
And that's why this is great. Because it's been an uphill battle for Luffy.
Like we knew it had to be if Luffy is to stand his ground.
That's not 'asspull' if you literally give us a letter of invitation to the 'Luffy Must Improve Over the Course of This Battle Gala and Ball'.
Which is why I've said from the start.
Luffy needs to learn a new way of fighting.
That doesn't mean besting his CoO.
That doesn't mean a power-up.
That means a new way of using what we know he can do.
Oh look…Gear 4th Snake Man. A new way of using what we know he can do.
I definitely agree on the last part, the whole time he was fighting I was thinking if boundman is power, tankman is defense, than there's gotta be a speed right?
I guess luffy wanted to wear katakuri down / boost his observation Haki as much as he could so he can get the maximum chance of victory. That all makes sense.Interesting thought on the katakuri embarassment thing. I always figured he was upset at flampe for obvious reasons but him getting embarassed that he couldnt didnt see the interference and him questioning luffy's integrity make sense.
The thing is about the face reveal and the dropping of his vest people seem to be split on their interpretations.
Is katakuri choosing to cast away his perfect image because his sister is trashing an opponent he respects so much (for being true and so determined despite any concern of his appearance) and cant stand luffy insulted for impressing him so much (both fighting wise and through sheer resolve/character)
Is he saying abandoning the charlotte name itself? Does he still want to win? Has he turned froma guy who loves his family into a battle fiend?
Yeah im clearly looking at option numero uno but I will admit the motives behind Katakuri's actions have been kind of hard to explain, because they are so 3 dimensional.
He throws away pride in his fake perfectionist appearance to embrace a reputation based solely on his own merits. Because he respects a worthy opponent who both doesnt give a damn about his face and doesnt care what happens to him because his conviction is so strong he'll get back from anything. This coming from the same guy who noticed luffy and stated he had to kill him asap before he becomes a threat to mama.
Katakuri still wants to win but if he did would he still kill luffy or turn him into mama? There's a difference between like and rspect and whilst katakuri's attitude for luffy seems to blur into "friendly / not so friendly rival territory" I think he still wants what's best for his family even if the main reason of his fight is to prove himself to luffy who he now recognizes. I dont feel like that famial role of the protective big brother was just an act.
If he was gonna be a clear cut evil villain, he would have stabbed flampe, luffy would have got pissed and then " but that's your crewmates you BASTARD!!!!!!" speech at him and kicked his ass in that chapter. I was worried as he walked up to her we might get that but 893 went in an unseen best case scenario. Not that oda hasnt repeatedly done that to me, say hello to "raizou is safe".
Its a lot tougher of a theme to explain than say usopp leaving the crew in water 7 but I love how oda's handled this I just wish I could explain it in all it's depth more succintly.
Its funny because katakuri seems to be one of the most fleshed out characters in this entire manga and damn you oda if you never bring him back, but you know its oda so I might as well be "threatening the sun to not rise on west" Tbh He's honestly one of my favorite characters in OP and it only took 35 chapters…
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I answered more after that initial post. I go into a similar train of thought.
However, if Katakuri has enough pride to stab himself to bring back the fight to what it was, then he has enough pride to admit defeat openly. There is a problem with the secrecy that goes around within their crew as well. If they don't start being completely honest, then they are just doing it half way, and I do not think that is a message worth sending.
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Depends doesn't it?
Flampe is actually a big deal.
There was a point of all the mooks taking pix etc.
That's…going to come back somehow.
And it's either going to be a change of heart in Flampe or a change of heart in Katakuri about himself.
Will Flampe awake and witness the victory?
Will Katakuri be open about his image?
It can go either way.
We need to think what's at stake in either event.
If Katakuri reveals a loss/image, it might a double-punch that cripples the family in an overly cruel way.
(Yes, they're largely assholes, we get it, but like putting a bear and a wolf in a cage to stop them fighting, they're assholes that mean well but need direction)
I could see, for instance, Katakuri opening up about his features, but the outcome of the match (let's say if they BOTH win i.e. Luffy gets KO'd but Katakuri lands on his back?) is skillfully kept under wraps.
At any rate, I can see the pathways leading to different outcomes but at this point, it still all depends on:
HOW THINGS WILL END WITH THE FAMILY
Which is huge. If we can get a glimpse of the answer to that then everything else will fall into place.
Where I stand on that issue is largely where I was months back with the family being on the side of the Strawhats with Mom potentially being antagonistic after an initial warming.
But...if we get into memory stuff in this arc, she could definitely warm the same as the family at this stage.
I just don't know if that's the most overall interesting development for the story at this point.
Id really like katakuri to reveal himself or at the very least ditch his scarf. It was some great character development if he comes clean, and Id hope some of the older children wouldnt have issues with it, I mean take a look at how worried the enraged army was when they thought nami and luffy killed lola and took mamas vivre card she stole.
Him overcoming his social pressures, and perfectionist facade would be a very nice parallel to luffy overcoming katakuri from a fighting standpoint.
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Katakuri did not toss away his pride, he regained it by being true to himself. The family has been talking whatever they thought was their vision of him and he did as best as he could to achieve that, the family made up fake accomplishments, he never is on his back and he did his best, probably for years to be true to their expectations. Here comes Luffy and messes with that from the core of the problem.
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@K.:
I answered more after that initial post. I go into a similar train of thought.
However, if Katakuri has enough pride to stab himself to bring back the fight to what it was, then he has enough pride to admit defeat openly. There is a problem with the secrecy that goes around within their crew as well. If they don't start being completely honest, then they are just doing it half way, and I do not think that is a message worth sending.
The whole reason for most of there lies is appeasing big mom who has inherited the ideal of equality from a prestigious liar and basically tried to take over as much as she can to enforce it without really understanding why it is supposed to be important. I feel such a lesson would have to tie into Big Mom and her relationship with Lola / Chiffon and possibly Pudding. The family is at fault for their poor communication but big mom needs to face the facts that's she's being shitty and needs to treat her family with more respect and all that,
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@K.:
Katakuri did not toss away his pride, he regained it by being true to himself. The family has been talking whatever they thought was their vision of him and he did as best as he could to hide that. Here comes Luffy and messes with that from the core of the problem.
I meant throws away the reputatiin everyone has pride in for inner pride / true strength. Sorry for the confusion.
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You actually confused me more.
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Is katakuri choosing to cast away his perfect image because his sister is trashing an opponent he respects so much
Yes and no.
I don't think he was thinking about deliberately trying to cast away the image for good.
Katakuri lost his stuff once when his face was revealed the first time right? The purpose of that scene was to show us how important that image is to him, to the point of irrational violence.
But when he yells at Flambe, notice how he doesn't try to kill her or even the mooks snapping photos. He's no longer angry about people seeing him, he's angry that this battle would be interfered with. This battle which CLEARLY is no longer about taking out a threat to Mom.
I'm not suggesting that the 'cool' version of himself is a facade. That's likely the real Katakuri. Check his face at the end of 894. Put a scarf over it. That's totally the face he always makes. But when he found out his (perhaps soon to be) rival was being status-DPS'd? He didn't care about what he looked like he was so angry! And that happens. That's absurdly realistic. Notice how he immediately returns to his true normal self because he released what he was upset over.
and Id hope some of the older children wouldnt have issues with it
Yeah, this is important.
It's a chance for some pretty solid scenes but it can also go that way if Flampe changes her mind.
And you know, the option does exist for both scenarios to come true.
Flampe decides to hold back but Katakuri goes ahead anyway.
I'm not focusing on her because I like or want her to get some kind of redemption by the way ^o^
I just think it would rationalize why Oda brought her in.
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@K.:
You actually confused me more.
I meant he might be throwing away his reputation because he's found that it doesnt matter as much. The difference between having to uphold a reputation because people see you as this perfect infalliable human and then having pride just because he wants to prove himself while fighting luffy.
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Yes and no.
I don't think he was thinking about deliberately trying to cast away the image for good.
Katakuri lost his stuff once when his face was revealed the first time right? The purpose of that scene was to show us how important that image is to him, to the point of irrational violence.
But when he yells at Flambe, notice how he doesn't try to kill her or even the mooks snapping photos. He's no longer angry about people seeing him, he's angry that this battle would be interfered with. This battle which CLEARLY is no longer about taking out a threat to Mom.
I'm not suggesting that the 'cool' version of himself is a facade. That's likely the real Katakuri. Check his face at the end of 894. Put a scarf over it. That's totally the face he always makes. But when he found out his (perhaps soon to be) rival was being status-DPS'd? He didn't care about what he looked like he was so angry! And that happens. That's absurdly realistic. Notice how he immediately returns to his true normal self because he released what he was upset over.
Yeah, this is important.
It's a chance for some pretty solid scenes but it can also go that way if Flampe changes her mind.
And you know, the option does exist for both scenarios to come true.
Flampe decides to hold back but Katakuri goes ahead anyway.
I'm not focusing on her because I like or want her to get some kind of redemption by the way ^o^
I just think it would rationalize why Oda brought her in.
I dont mean that katakuri is completely fine sending his face out in public yet or that he had an inner soliquy about he truly realizes the "just be yourself" ideal from luffy specifically. I just meant that this was the powderkeg to an arc or realization of the sort when the fight is over. That he could come to grips with it or something.
If he just goes back to normal it would lessen the weight of him revealing such an insecurity because his sister was taking away a fight with an opponent he respects from him. I definitely feel like while oda is having the big mom pirates act as a foil to the whitebeard pirates that they wont be completely evil either. That's why I feel katakuri doesnt need to leave them either.
Which really makes you think how oda's handling of katakuri from, an antagonist out for luffy's head to more of a rival, will mesh with big mom's role at the end. How everything the strawhats did will, if not completely forgiven, will be overlooked enough to allow them to leave. I feel with the whole of the BMP at Cacao and luffy leaving this fight so weak that them escaping might not be completely feasible. For the record if the development is to happen its probably gonna necessitate the strawhats not leaving at first because if they were gonna leave and no development was to happen they could have skedaddled after the cake fell.